This Pyre Will Burn…!

#370 Posted by salmanulhaq

""A BHUTTO IS A BHUTTO - A different view of Benazir's assasination". Read this thought provoking analysis by Dr. Maulana Imran N. Hosein. Its an eye-opener for those who aren't still 'internally' blind.

Article link : www.techtickle.com/bhutto.jsp"

My brother-in-law's six year old son, when asked to tell a story, would seamlessly weave the story-lines from the Terminator, True Lies and a couple of other action movies with such amazing skill it would be difficult to distinguish them as different story-lines. However, the piece-de-resistance was how he introduced romance by way of the Titanic into it.

This article comes quite close, but is no match to the hybrid storyline the kid used to weave. Perhaps Bollywood has a job as a writer for this guy.

Poor Masadi is a joke. I am not even going to touch his claims that had there been no Pakistan he still would have been allowed near a computer...

However He claims that Zulfikar Ali Bhutto "evolved" later. The quotes I produced were from 21st December 1976 and from his death cell. He claims that he "elaborated" on them.. he never did because he can't.

On December 21, 1976, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, late Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto addressed a joint session of the National Assembly and Senate of the federation held to commemorate the centenary of birth of Quaid-e-Azam. Addressing Quaid-e-Azam's portrait hanging on the wall, he said in a most dramatic fashion: -

"Quaid-eAzam!

I know what arrows pierced your heart (during struggle for Pakistan). The British said you were arrogant. This was understandable, because you had refused to bow before them. The Congress leaders and their henchmen called you stubborn. That too was to be expected, because they had failed to trick you. What is not understandable, and what must have certainly bewildered and distressed you is, that the nation, for whose sake you were putting up with all this, was in forefront of your tormentors!"

(ZAB was clearly abusing Maududis and Masadis of the time)

Then he went on to give details of what people from one province or the other had done against the Quaid-e-Azam. After this detail, he remarked about the irony that the Maulvis and Maulanas had also pounced upon him. He followed with an observation that among his critics, a certain person, although saying things similar to others, couched them in a comparatively fancy language. Then he started quoting in English, excerpts from the book by Mr. Maudoodi titled "Muslims and the Present Political Turmoil" Volume 3. He quoted so extensively, that the text covered two columns and a half of Pakistan Times of December 23, 1976.


and from his death cell to Benazir Bhutto

"With the exception of your father, the Quaid-e-Azam and perhaps Suhrawardy either charlatans or captains have run this country. Perhaps things will change with a struggle spearheaded by the militant youth. If things do not change, there will be nothing left to change. Either power must pass to the people or everything will perish."

Now I don't believe in life after death and so I cannot comment on any perceived connections that Mr. Masadi might have but Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto as he existed till April 4th 1979 was a die hard fan of Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah.

Unfortunately Bhutto was not always as selfless and incorruptible as Jinnah ... and did not have the integrity and courage that Jinnah possessed. Still there is no denying that Bhutto tried to associate himself with Jinnah (starting with his claim from his death cell that he had been part of Jinnah's civil disobedience movement in Bombay in 1946 to achieve Pakistan).

Furthermore... as someone whose family has been part of the PPP for more than 30 years... and as the son of the man who personally knew Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and discussed many things with him ... I can safely say that Bhutto would have had a fool like Masadi roasted alive.

"A BHUTTO IS A BHUTTO - A different view of Benazir's assasination". Read this thought provoking analysis by Dr. Maulana Imran N. Hosein. Its an eye-opener for those who aren't still 'internally' blind.

Article link : www.techtickle.com/bhutto.jsp

Re: # 364 Romair
"....i have never figured out what is gained by putting india down (or pakistan down) in pakistan.....does it really make any difference whether pakistan is better than india or vice versa......"

Damned if I ever heard a satisfactory answer to this one. I have been asking this question myself for the last 35 years.

I haven't been back to India ever since I left it; but it seems to me, from meeting with a number of Indians of the various regions, that Indians are far more cohesive than, and far more proud of being Indian than Pakistanis are of being, Pakistanis. I do not necessarily doubt your observation that India may have far more complex problems, even more poverty, than Pakistan. But they are also far better placed to address and resolve those issues while keeping their nation intact.

The leadership in Pak OTOH - whether political or military -has been pushing the various communities in Pakistan farther and farther away from each other. At times this realization seems unreal; nevertheless it doesn't go away. There is an ominously evil wind that blows in Pakistan these days.

In # 367 read

Now, you all think that Manto doesn't know this. He does because I have on atleast three seperate occassions elaborated on this quote by the ZAB and how he evolved and did not, towards the end of his life have any doubts that this whole experiment by the MAJ, working as a peon for the feudals/colonials, was the absolute right thing

as:



Now, you all think that Manto doesn't know this. He does because I have on atleast three seperate occassions elaborated on this quote by the ZAB and how he evolved and towards the end of his life, did not have any doubts that this whole experiment by the MAJ, working as a peon for the feudals/colonials, might not have been the absolute right thing, in other words it could have been a mistake whose victim he was going to become.

Manto writes "In retrospect... the worst thing Jinnah did was to create opportunities for people like Masadi. It is anybody's guess what sewer Masadi would be in if it hadn't been for Pakistan. "

Jinnah didn't create any opportunity for me, the "opportunities" were created by my relatively well to do great grandparents who became less well to do in the same area (that was called Pakistan later, than they were before. You don't know shit about me so better keep your goddamned mouth shut. I don't belong to a family of petty bourgeoisie like you do that I need MAJ creating "opportunities" for me even as he slaughters millions

Manto writes " ...Time Magazine..."

That my friends (and enemies) is the sum total of his intelligence, to copy paste from websites, from magazines and some obscure books written by orientalists and other "experts". Regarding using well known facts (which no one not even the orientalists dispute) and his sense of reason, the guy (or "freak" ) is totally disabled.

He writes "To quote (Ghulam Ahmed Parwez's) Tolu-e-Islam's website (Bhutto could have been addressing freaks like Masadi):

On December 21, 1976, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, late Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto addressed a joint session of the National Assembly and Senate of the federation held to commemorate the centenary of birth of Quaid-e-Azam. Addressing Quaid-e-Azam's portrait hanging on the wall, he said in a most dramatic fashion: -

"Quaid-eAzam!"

We discussed at length, (over two and a half threads worth) the ZAB and MAJ issues, but like a dishonest "freak", Manto deliberately keeps repeating his falsehoods regarding the ZAB to make unjustified claims and to fool those that have not followed the debate, and he does it in a most deceptive manner at the very end (fine print) of pages and pages worth of worthless copy pastes.

Now, this claim about the ZAB being the "founder" of the Church of MAJ is total horse sh**. ZAB the politician evolved in his time in office. At the time he wrote "Myth of Independance" (which I have read), he was trying to justify the shenanigans of the MAJ (regarding Pakistan) in the context of imperial "divide and rule", which he claimed evolved into "unite and rule" as spheres of influence developed (viz a viz the US and the Soviet block). In doing so he badly tripped himself not realizing that the creation of Pakistan itslef was the first step in this "unite and rule" thing that he was trying to rail against. Now, Manto accuses the man of being a manipulator and fooling the people of Pakistan to get power. Now that claim might hold some water when the man was on the rise and reaching the zenith of his career but it certainly cannot define this words written from the death cell in a letter to his daughter in which he opens up the possibility that what the MAJ did was a "mistake" and future events would either prove or disprove that (and they sure as hell have proven it).

Now, you all think that Manto doesn't know this. He does because I have on atleast three seperate occassions elaborated on this quote by the ZAB and how he evolved and did not, towards the end of his life have any doubts that this whole experiment by the MAJ, working as a peon for the feudals/colonials, was the absolute right thing as Manto religiously believes in it to be.

Now, he cannot answer me or counter my claims, all he can do is repeat his BS about me not having read his orientalist masters- who know shit about Pakistan by the way, and other tabulators whose work he spits out in news caster prompter style, calling that "intelligence" or literary work. The guy is a sorry excuse for a human being. He did not even refrain from using his father's death to score points against me and baselessly rail against my sincere condolences. Now he calls me a "freak" and gets away with it, watch how fast the chowk staff ban me because I called this sob a "freak" as well....

Pakis - learn from the japanese... start coloring indian maps... :) ...

....i have never figured out what is gained by putting india down (or pakistan down) in pakistan.....does it really make any difference whether pakistan is better than india or vice versa......

.....india is a far far more complex country than pakistan, with far far more problems to solve, due to its very very large population and extremely multi-religious, multi-cultural, multi-lingual and multi-caste society......

.....on the other hand, india has always had a much larger educated class, and is not threatened by any neighbor.....and over the past 60 years, it has developed a strong enough social structure (democracy, legal system etc.) to create a strong base off which it can grow....

.....pakistan has different problems......it is basically a feudal/tribal society, which on the surface appears like a modern country (by third world standards), because its urban centers have achieved quick economic growth over the past fifty years.....

i don't see how pakistan can compete with india in terms of overall size/power.....there are very few, if any, examples of a country competing like that with another, which is eight times its size......

......however, pakistan has fewer complexities, and can, thus, solve its problems quicker, if it can get its act together......

in any case, india is buy for the next ten years, while pakistan is sell for the next two, and then perhaps hold for three years after that and then maybe buy (if everything goes well)......

Re: # 361 YLH

That may be true - but that doesn't stop japanese to have a "tinge of envy" towards india...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/business/worldbusiness/02japan.htm l?_r=1&oref=slogin

At the Little Angels English Academy & International Kindergarten, the textbooks are from India, most of the teachers are South Asian, and classroom posters depict animals out of Indian tales. The kindergarten students even color maps of India in the green and saffron of its flag.

China’s image in Japan as a cheap manufacturer and technological imitator. But India’s success in software development, Internet businesses and knowledge-intensive industries in which Japan has failed to make inroads has set off more than a tinge of envy

+++

Japanese got a tinge of envy for the railroad sqauatters - can you believe that :)

Manto Bhai,
It's really not my business, but why are you concerned that India (of 1.1 billion) will cross Germany (of 80 million souls) in constipation by the year 2050?

Maybe they will also switch to a diet of bratwurst and beer.

I see Pooh Pooh Research trying to convince himself of something desperately.

Meanwhile... have 75% Indians (close 820 million souls) found a decent toilet to crap in? Pooh Pooh has no answer to that question except that India (of 1.1 billion) will cross Germany (of 80 million souls) in consumption by the year 2025!!!

Wah.

He He He... someones tail lamp is ON .... :-)

#356 Posted by rf786

That guy puke_research is full of schit. If you google India this is what you get on the first page. (See below)

The whole Swat is not equal to Assam or Orissa state in either population or in continued insurgency.

The Swat issue is bigger because of the nature of the insurgency and not the size of it. There is no civil war in Swat. People fighting with the law enforcement is never a civil war. Puke_reasearch obviously can’t make the distinction.

The army makes the whole issue in FATA looks bigger than what it is for obvious reasons and they are: to continue to get money and the political support from the US for the army. For the Pak army the WOT has become another racket to make money off. It is not going to last long. The weak Bush admin would not attempt to change any thing but the new admin in Wash,DC would certainly look at the double game these Pak Generals are playing!


Punjabi Town Put Under Curfew After 15 Hindus Die in New Strife ...
Punjabi Town Put Under Curfew After 15 Hindus Die in New Strife ... New Delhi dissolved Punjab's state assembly three years ago and put the state under ...
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE5DE1231F934A15752C1A966958260 - 46k - Cached - Similar pages

Curfew in India's Assam state after police fire on mob - South Asia
Curfew in India's Assam state after police fire on mob - South Asia ... An indefinite curfew was imposed in Lakhimpur and the situation was tense but under ...
news.monstersandcritics.com/.../article_1384415.php/Curfew_in_Indias_Assam_ state_after_police_fire_on_mob - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

Indian City Remains under Curfew after "Idol" Clashes
A city in India's West Bengal state remained under a curfew for a second day Saturday after fans of the winner of a TV contest clashed with police while ...
www.crinordic.com/2947/2007/09/29/1221@279399.htm - 59k - Cached - Similar pages

The Hindu : Front Page : Agra placed under curfew
The State Home official denied that the Government had asked the tourists ... Russian think tank backs India-U.S. nuclear deal • Agra placed under curfew ...
www.hindu.com/2007/08/30/stories/2007083061431400.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

Christians Under Siege in Indian State - The Forum at GOPUSA
Christians Under Siege in Indian State Foreign News & Policy. ... A curfew has been imposed in a remote part of eastern Orissa state after clashes over the ...
www.gopusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45050 - 51k - Cached - Similar pages

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Curfew after India water clashes
It is the second time in a week that the town of Ghadsana town has been placed under curfew. The BBC's Narayan Bareth in the state capital, Jaipur says that ...
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6058056.stm - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

India: Gujarat riots - communalization of state and civic society
India: Gujarat riots - communalization of state and civic society .... Even after a month and a half many areas are under curfew and civic life is paralyzed ...
www.mukto-mona.com/human_rights/gujarat/gujrat_riot_patel.htm - 31k - Cached - Similar pages


Zee News - Kolkata under curfew, army called in
Mullick Bazar, Ripon Street, Park Circus and Beg Bagan areas will remain under curfew from 10 PM and 6 AM. Earlier in the day, activists of the All India ...
www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=408630&archisec=REG&archisubsec= - 60k - Cached - Similar pages

Violence spreads in Orissa villages despite curfew-India-The Times ...
Times of India, Indiatimes, Web ... continued to be under curfew; Centre has sought a report from the state government, advising it to tread with caution. ...
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Violence_spreads_in_Orissa_villages_despite_cur few/rssarticleshow/2653716.cms - 42k - Cached - Similar pages

rf786, could we have your considered opinion on another way of looking at what is happening at Pakistan:

The real fight is less about whether any such thing as Pakistan will exist or not (although anxieties on that score are normal), but about what kind of Pakistan should exist. There is a tussle going on between different groups who each would like Pakistan to exist, but want it to exist on their terms. These are not non-Pakistani groups, but Pakistani groups themselves. Each of these groups (except balochis perhaps) considers Pakistan (as they want it) as a valuable entity, if they could preserve it. Most would be loath to destroy it outright, except in total desperation. Pakistanis are nowhere near that (and we hope, never are).

For the first time, that internal fight is threatening to become real.

Re: # 355

Economic prosperity is a good thing, but we have to be cognizant of the social, political impact that has been bought about by the Military Inc policies. There is no economic sector that does not have Military imprints, top jobs are going to retired army officers, and society is being constantly engineered through machinations of a few. Today, Indians are proud to be Indians whereas that is arare thing in the Pakistani context.