This Pyre Will Burn…!

Ah! looks like salim is back...

Now read twenty posts of no substance and complete bull!

Re: # 283 Posted by krashid1961 on January 2, 2008 10:30:00 pm

[So first of all stop equating Mohajir and MQM.]

Agreed, if anyone would define how long this word "Mohajir" remains relevant? Who should be considered a mohajir, and for how long?

Is this an Islamic word or an Arabic word?

Why should the MQM get the political mileage by using this word? Or are they implying that they are muslims, hence they have a right to use this word?

[Second beareaucracy carries on the policy of Government whatever Government it is.] On the contrary, bureaucrats have their own agenda, and they usually train the politicians to implement their nefarious agenda.

[On the bribe "Is Hamam Me Sub Nange Hain" God fearing people are in every community and "so called" God fearing and Godless also.]

In Pakistan, these mohajirs have always been in the government and hence they conspired with the majorities (read: mostly Punjabis) in creating this "rishwut geeri" society. Not just this, they are the loudest critic in criticising this rishwut taking.

Do you know why their is hypocrisy in this MQM behavior, because their politics is devious and is about confusing the issue. Hence they show enormous amount of foul language and emotional outbursts. These people are devoured os any reason. But, how can that be? They have used all kinds of deception, in their 60 years in Pakistan to claim that they were the most educated people in Pakistan.

Huh. Do you get that?

[There is no statistics which shows that bribe has reduced or increased depending upon the ethnicity of an institution.]

Well, maybe the staticians should do some research and get the data. Do we agree to the generally accepted notion about memons and other gujratis to which mohajirs in Karachi love to say, and some still do till this day...."chamri jai damree na jai"?

#262 Tvarad {"I can see how you've endeared yourself to Sindhis (:-)). If I were a Mohajir, I would be grateful to the Sindhis for providing shelter in a time of crisis (of their own making, IMHO). I would ensure that my children would learn Sindhi out of love for the land and not because it was forced down their throats.:}

TV Sahib,
That's assuming that the powerful Vaderas would allow you to do that. The poor sindhi haris are not exactly babes lost in the woods waiting to be rescued by gentle do-gooders. They are totally under the control of the Vaderas, who make sure there is no outside interference in their areas - they discourage schools, factories, and any contact that would erode their hold over these people. It takes a real miracle to maintain the same level of illiteracy or even a drop in literacy - and Pakistan has managed to accomplish this in the rural areas of Sindh. Many mohajirs, out of nationalism or religious zeal, tried to encroach upon these fiefdoms with horrible results for themselves. So, please stick to India - For every Mother Teresa, there has to be a willing Calcutta in the first place. I didn't see her move to Johannesburg or Sao Paolo or Rio de Janeiro.

"THAT is how far many Urdu-speaking intellectuals have gone in helping Sindhi Muslims assimilate and move forward."

Nonsense. The people in Sindhi are Sindhi and are NOT divided as Sindhi muslim or Sindhi Hindu. No Indian, no matter how enlightened he thinks he is, is beyond the communal divide.

"I am glad HP has never asked for handouts for Sindhi Muslims."

Yet another thoughtless comment. No Sindhi has ever asked for a handout and neither have urdu speaking. The economic interests make people vie for different positions and no one begs another for mercy or handout.

Dear Brothers & Sisters.

Let us not debate on worthless topics like Urdu vs Sindhi etc..

Pakistanis and Indians share the same genes but only Pakistan is a Muslim-majority nation. Insha Allah, this has helped us become economically backward ,quite illiterate and retarded very rapidly.
Let us hope that our Muslim brothers in India reproduce fast enough to turn India into a Muslim-majority nation. When it happens, India too will become economically backward and illiterate and we will then all be the same.

Mashallah, until then,
Please go back to praying 5 times a day.

rf786, M. B. Naqvi is one of those Pakistanis we can all respect. He has long called himself an Urdu Speaking Sindhi.

THAT is how far many Urdu-speaking intellectuals have gone in helping Sindhi Muslims assimilate and move forward. But I guess it has to be a mutual effort, not a one-sided insistence on handouts. I am glad HP has never asked for handouts for Sindhi Muslims.

Re: # 300

HP Saeen,

One of the oldest civilizations in the world, Sindh or lower Indus has all the reason to be proud of its heritage. Urdu speaking people who migrated to Sindh have always found Sindhis more than accommodating. Farooq Sattar is a resident of PIB Colony, named after Pir Ilahi Bux Soomro a great patron of the Mohajirs. Point being, we the Urdu speaking people understand and respect our Sindhi hosts and owe them plenty, having said that Urdu speaking people have their own cultural values and history that they honor and cherish.

Dominance isn't the issue at all. To respond to perceived dominance with bitterness and hatred is. Punjabis dominate Delhi. Punjabis have taken over India's cultural scene. Sindhis dominate parts of Bombay. They all speak whatever language they want, and nobody hates them for that.

And assimilate in what? Pakistan was yet to be created. UP Muslims took the lead in creating it, through blood and toil. It was Sindhi Muslims who failed to assimilate in it.

One is not surprised, at least HP recognizes that Urdu speakers did the best they could for Sindhi Muslims. For all the evil he represents (he is regularly equated to Hitler and Modi) Altaph Hussain has so often gone out of his way to carry Sindhis along and help them assimilate in Pakistan as it was being created.

Muthu, IMHO, Urdu Speaking Muslims had no more reasons to be 'thankful' to Sindhi Muslims than the latter had reason to be thankful to Urdu Speakers for creating Pakistan. Your historical analogies are definitely very interesting, and I doubt that 'thankfulness' is even a relevant cultral construct. We may be taking something from one culture and imposing it on something very different.

#298 Posted by dost_mittar
“The influx of urdu speakers from India resulted in a demographic transformation of Karachi; they were in large enough numbers to be a viable community without the need to assimilate.”

Everyone knows this. Assimilation is a long term process especially for a community as large as the Urdu Speaking. Since they were ghettoized in Karachi, Hyderabad and a few other big cities, they never really had a chance to learn Sindhi or really grasp the culture. A good majority of these Urdu speaking never came in any daily contact with Sindhis. No one should blame that on Urdu Speaking. Most of them were hardworking people and immersed themselves in providing livelihood for their families and kids.

The issue was the policies that the federal government made and they were insensitive to the Sindhi needs. If the Federal government had taken the measures to balance out the situation from the very beginning, some of those issues would have resolved over time.

Since the Quota System, Sindhis now have a strong presence in at least the provincial jobs and now it is a matter of time for Sindhis to catch up. Sindhi don’t grudge the Urdu speaking and in fact a realization has set in that both communities are Sindhis as Urdu speaking are not going anywhere. They make money for Sindh and pay their fair share of taxes.

The economic divide between the urban and the rural populations can be seen even in the developed countries.

Many Urdu speaking also fight for Sindhis rights. Throughout the Sindhi rights struggle, many Urdu speaking, especially leftists, were at the forefront of Sindhis rights struggle. I know some Urdu speaking guys that are still legends in the struggle for Sindhis rights. The Urdu speaking taught many Sindhis about the national rights struggle and they helped Sindhi organize politically.

Now the major issue is whether the Sindhis would get their fair share in the federal government or not? The murder of Benazir for shortsighted reasons had opened the way for nationalist leaders in Sindh to come forward and fill the gap.

We saw that process in East Pakistan, We had seen that happening in Baluchistan, and we might see the same process duplicated in Sindh.

Thank you.

Ranjit

Good pshycho-analysis :)

But the thing is - the so-called "muhajir" people were cantankerous back then in india .... and they are cantankerous now in pakiland... I guess some people are just never happy...

it's not about victory or defeat... had no partition happened - these folks would now be creating trouble in india... Nehru and Patel understood that well - hence they readily agreed to partition...

I don't what it is - may be it's the sense of entitlement, false pride in by-gone era of "dominance"...

Good riddance, either way...

Eklavya, anil:

Mohajir language and culture would have dominated Karachi even if Pakistan were not a new country or Urdu not its national language and even if they were not better educated. It was simply a matter of numbers. The influx of urdu speakers from India resulted in a demographic transformation of Karachi; they were in large enough numbers to be a viable community without the need to assimilate. On the other hand, the relatively smaller number of mohajirs in Punjab and the Frontier assimilated quite well even though they did not think of Punjabis or Pashtuns to be any more tehzeeb-yafta than the Sindhis.

Something similar happened in Delhi also which was transformed by a sudden influx of Punjabis in 1947. Punjabi language and culture dominated Delhi during the 1950s and most of 1960s. The dominance of Punjabi declined in Delhi because of the Hindi-Punjabi controversy in Punjab as a result of which Hindu Punjabis abandoned their mothertongue and brought up their children in Hindi instead of Punjabi; but Punjabi food, music, costumes and culture dominate Delhi even now.

Much is also being made of the relative backwardness of Sindhi Muslims vis-a-vis Hindus; the situation was, in fact, no different in Punjab either where Hindus and Sikhs dominated education and other professions; they owned most of the urban and industrial properties in the cities of Punjab and even the Frontier province. Yet, Punjabis had no problem filling the vaccum left by the Hindus and Sikhs in terms of professions and jobs. Once again, it was a question of demographics as Punjabis' numerical domination in the cities was never challenged by non-Punjabis.

Eklavya, anil:

Mohajir language and culture would have dominated Karachi even if Pakistan were not a new country or Urdu not its national language and even if they were not better educated. It was simply a matter of numbers. The influx of urdu speakers from India resulted in a demographic transformation of Karachi; they were in large enough numbers to be a viable community without the need to assimilate. On the other hand, the relatively smaller number of mohajirs in Punjab and the Frontier assimilated quite well even though they did not think of Punjabis or Pashtuns to be any more tehzeeb-yafta than the Sindhis.

Something similar happened in Delhi also which was transformed by a sudden influx of Punjabis in 1947. Punjabi language and culture dominated Delhi during the 1950s and most of 1960s. The dominance of Punjabi declined in Delhi because of the Hindi-Punjabi controversy in Punjab as a result of which Hindu Punjabis abandoned their mothertongue and brought up their children in Hindi instead of Punjabi; but Punjabi food, music, costumes and culture dominate Delhi even now.

Much is also being made of the relative backwardness of Sindhi Muslims vis-a-vis Hindus; the situation was, in fact, no different in Punjab either where Hindus and Sikhs dominated education and other professions; they owned most of the urban and industrial properties in the cities of Punjab and even the Frontier province. Yet, Punjabis had no problem filling the vaccum left by the Hindus and Sikhs in terms of professions and jobs. Once again, it was a question of demographics as Punjabis' numerical domination in the cities was never challenged by non-Punjabis.

Eklavya, anil:

Mohajir language and culture would have dominated Karachi even if Pakistan were not a new country or Urdu not its national language and even if they were not better educated. It was simply a matter of numbers. The influx of urdu speakers from India resulted in a demographic transformation of Karachi; they were in large enough numbers to be a viable community without the need to assimilate. On the other hand, the relatively smaller number of mohajirs in Punjab and the Frontier assimilated quite well even though they did not think of Punjabis or Pashtuns to be any more tehzeeb-yafta than the Sindhis.

Something similar happened in Delhi also which was transformed by a sudden influx of Punjabis in 1947. Punjabi language and culture dominated Delhi during the 1950s and most of 1960s. The dominance of Punjabi declined in Delhi because of the Hindi-Punjabi controversy in Punjab as a result of which Hindu Punjabis abandoned their mothertongue and brought up their children in Hindi instead of Punjabi; but Punjabi food, music, costumes and culture dominate Delhi even now.

Much is also being made of the relative backwardness of Sindhi Muslims vis-a-vis Hindus; the situation was, in fact, no different in Punjab either where Hindus and Sikhs dominated education and other professions; they owned most of the urban and industrial properties in the cities of Punjab and even the Frontier province. Yet, Punjabis had no problem filling the vaccum left by the Hindus and Sikhs in terms of professions and jobs. Once again, it was a question of demographics as Punjabis' numerical domination in the cities was never challenged by non-Punjabis.

#277, Ekalavya:

It may be hard for some to hear, but the truth is that Indian Muslims did not go to any Sindhi land to become Sindhis (sorry ranjit, please don't misread this, you are not relevant to this in the least). They went specifically and only to Pakistan to become Pakistanis. And no matter what people may say, they have carried the banner of Pakistan, sometimes against all odds.


That's right. Indian Muslims did not go to Sindh to become Sindhis. I have the same opinion that Ranjit has eloquently written in #288.

But that doesn't take away the fact that 'Mohajirs' are actually migrants and went in as guests. Mohajirs went in as 'victors' who don't have to follow the language/rules/culture of the locals (more or less like the Muslim invaders of old). That is completely wrong.

My analogy with Urdu speakers moving into Chennai and imposing their rules is to be treated just as an example. It doesn't depend on the antiquity / literature of the language. It applies to any place where people migrate to and are given a refuge. It is just the expected courtesy to assimilate and help the people who have given you the refuge in the first place. But 'Mohajirs' (even the name indicates, irrespective of Salim's claims it is not used after 1980, they were called Mohajirs from day one, the religious significance of being the ruling race, "Mohajirs" are the group of people who migrated from Mecca to Medina along with Mr.Mohammad to escape the "so called persecution" of the "polytheists" and with the help of "ansars" who they actually ruled over successfully returned to Mecca defeating the "polytheists") had a different idea. I have read somewhere (I think from Ali Sina) that there was a Hadith that prevents the "ansars' from taking a leadership role, just that Sindhis after a while realised that being "ansars" is not enough. :-)

Guys Bubba is a troll on a wind-up mission no real person can actually be this retarded.

Re: # 290 u r right , i went to khoski in 98 and the boss was a fat bholu pahalwan type pashtun colonel