This Pyre Will Burn…!

Re: # 288

Ranjit,

Very interesting perspective, gives a totally new way for me at least of looking at partition and outcome. Thanks

Re: # 290

With reference to the post some corrections:

1. Police stations - in Karachi

2. Khoski Sugar Mill trip was either 1982 or 1983 and not 1981.

Re: # 283

krashid1961

Back in the eighties-nineties, good old days of Sultan Rahee Police stations were literally auctioned by police officers based on their prospects to make illegal money. Theese Police staions or Thannas were dominated by Punjab, some from Frontier and Interior Sindh.

Industrial units nationalized by PPP in the seventies were sold at a pittance to Fauji Foundation, Shaheen and Bahria ie Pakistani military Inc. Once these industrial units were sold, they were filled with retired army officers, once again most of them hailed from Punjab.

Back in 1981, I had the opportunity of visiting Khoski Sugar Mill in the interior of Sindh. Fertile area that was dished out to retired and serving army officers who then supplied the mill with the required sugar cane, to top it off, senior management of course came from army (Punjabi) and the poor workers. You can imagine the level of resentment felt in the area towards Pak army and Punjabis in general.

The above stated example is just a small example of what was and still is pervasive throughout Pakistan. To hide and conceal their criminal activity, scapegoats are conjured and demi-gods created.

Re: # 286 kadoo agar deterrence was not there then indians would have overrun us in 1987 as sundarji planned.nuclear programme was developed because usa needed pakistan for the afghan war.what BS u r talikng.

Re:kaal#277
"I think, what happened is this. For whatever reasons, Sindhi Muslims never did any good. They were laggards when they lived with Sindhi Hindus and there remain laggards when they live with non-Sindhi Muslims. They were jealous earlier, and remain jealous now. They bought into 'Pakistan' as an easy way to a potentially grab of the fruits of the hard work of Sindhi Hindus. They never got to do that. And that hurts the most"

Kaal, its a lot more complicated than this analysis. In the aftermath of partition, Pakistanis, both local and migrated muslims, had a different mindset as compared to Indians, both local and migrated hindus/sikhs. For Pakistanis, it was a victory, at least at that time. They had gained something at the cost of India, and in their minds they had just delivered the ultimate kick in the stomach to hindus. For Indians, it was a loss, in the conext of that time. Indians had just given up a large chunk of territory where their culture, civilzation and religion lied in ruins and even their physical existence was erased.

Therefore, Pakistanis were in euphoric mood. They had a strong sense of entitlement, having just gained a glorious victory. This attitude was strongest amongst Muhajirs. It was the return of the glory of muslim rule. In such an atmosphere, there was no incentive to adjust their ways of life or pick up a new language or be accommodating to each other. There was no need to compromise on anything. They had united enough to get Pakistan, now it was each person's turn to grab the most of the spoils. It was an attitude of 'jiski lathi uski bhains'. That attitude has resulted in their intolerance for each other and looking at each other as competitors for resources. Its the classic case of the parts unable to create a whole. Ironically, in spite of having common bonds of religion, they have ended up at each other's throats rather than build up on economies of scale by uniting together.

Indians on the other hand were shell shocked and numb with a sense of defeat. After a thousand years of external imperial rule, this was the final act of cruelty that literally wiped out their civilization from the corners of the subcontinent. Therefore, hindus and sikhs reached out to each other in sympathy and compassion, to salvage their lives and pick up its pieces. Arriving refugees were not viewed as competitors but as your own people from your civilization who had somehow survived a horrendous fate. Effectively hindus learnt a hard lesson that they had never learned for centuries which was that if they didnt care for each other, no one else would. Similarly the arriving hindus and sikhs who poured into India, were basically defeated people. They didnt even want to come to India but had no choice. There was no intention to come and grab stuff or exert domination. Rather the attitude was that now that we have been kicked in the stomach, lets all help each other and survive. This is what led to assimilation and unity, which has now blossomed into the strength that India displays today.

In #286 read " If nuclear devices were kept not for use by deterrence " as

If nuclear devices were kept not for use but for deterrence

PavoC writes "deterrent power "

There is no deterrent power in nuclear weapons, they give the possessor a false sense of invincibility until one side preempts their use to ensure mutual destruction. If nuclear devices were kept not for use by deterrence then countries wouldn't mass produce them in all shapes and sizes, even one would be enough. It is not about deterrence but about stupidity induced by false confidence that ensures mutual destruction.

bubba bhai, as an expert on giving and taking bribes, I will share inside news. The big sahib takes bribes, the ardali takes bribes. The big sahib takes bigger bribes.

If one community fills the ranks of big sahibs and another delights in eternal ardali-hood, you will notice community-level differences in the giving and taking of bribes.

PavoC writes "(1) Denuclearisation so that Pakistan's deterrent power is removed "

This was and is not the main US aim. Pakistan got the bomb under the watchful eye of the US, if not directly under its supervision, as did North Korea and the so called AQ Khan network that is being flaunted now for propaganda points was well under the watchful eye of the CIA. The US is all for nuclear proliferation because it knows that such is good for business and these "peon states" will dare not try anything against it, and even if they do the chances that they will pull off something are next to zero: that is concerning the state entities, regarding some individual pulling it off it is almost non existant but the threat is flaunted for ulterior motive.

Bubba:
Mohajirs have been in Beaureaucracy even befor MQM was born. They even opted for Pakistan when given the choice, rather than serving the Indian beareaucracy.
So first of all stop equating Mohajir and MQM. Second beareaucracy carries on the policy of Government whatever Government it is.
On the bribe "Is Hamam Me Sub Nange Hain" God fearing people are in every community and "so called" God fearing and Godless also.
There is no statistics which shows that bribe has reduced or increased depending upon the ethnicity of an institution.

main US aim is (1) Denuclearisation so that Pakistan's deterrent power is removed (2) Utilisation of Pakistan as a tactical garbage collector in war on terror

Re: # 251

HP Saeen,

{In this scenario the question to be asked is: how Balkanization of Pakistan helps the US?..Is Pakistan a threat to the US? Or, Pakistan has some resources such as the oil that balkanization would help the US to control it.}

Pakistan has the richest resources of Jihadi suicide bombers. Ask the Americans, Spanish, British, Indonesian, Algerian, Egyptian,Afghanis, Indians, Russians, Chinese etc etc. They will all tell u the same thing, Pakistan needs to bring its house in order or else.

Post 9/11, right of preemption has become a cornerstone of US foreign policy. Under this self-ordained right, US has identified problem areas that can be a threat to the state. Now we can disagree, protest and ridicule but that has not deterred uncle Sam from their policy initiatives.

I cannot believe that the Pak army and their think tanks do not know whats happening, they are trying to avoid the final confrontation but are going the wrong path. Assassination of Benazir has made matters worse and could have been the last nail in their coffin.

Since Pakistan has no oil, the Balkanization of Pakistan would create a permanent problem for the US and other powers in the area.

Re: # 165 mr.Ranjit thanks for telling us how Sindhis are doing in India.
Now there is one problem faced by all minorities specially when there is no oppression or discrimination. ( Same thing I have heard happening to jews in USA)
The problem is dissoltion of race of minority people. Now in India you have too much sex walking on street with faces exposed and some times overexposed and too many movies, silly tv and racy novels and young people who are controlled by hormons rather than brain. Now this intermingling of men and women specially is bad for small minority people. For elders is ok as they can be in plutonic love and it does not lead to sociatial problems. Now sindhi boys and girls initially from Pakistan had good morals and control and knew to keep away from dark hindus of hindustan. But with new generation people marry for silly reasons like felling in love ( actually according to me never marry for love ,specially by men as love is weakness by men and they have visual appeal and even donkey appaers as a horse to them at age, and ugly women by racy dress and lipstick can mans all life. I always tell young man to forget the girl and look at possible mother in law , that will show furure). Felling in love is actually failure waekness of men and women and all silly things are celebrated.
Now you have small community and and generally better looking girls, this hindus must be marrying happily as they will like to upgrade their color and looks. So you must be loosing lots of good ladies and some stupids / men from your community will marry dark hindus and you know rivers always go down . So slowly sindhi group will disappear and will become like hindus. I hope your Sindhi community can play colors with hindus but make sure you do not get colors. It like be friends and gracious but do not invite for food. Now people may not like this but good tings are never liked, just like you have force children good milk and they will not like but they will go and damage brains and bodies by drinking alcohol.
Now you have to admit there are dark Sindhis and ugly faces also. Now we had just chief minister he was so dark even stones will cry looking at his color.
I hope still your race is maintained idendity and speak sindhi and not urdu of India. I will like to know if still purity of race is possible in india was is getting washed down and becoming just like hindus. I wish you good day and happy prosporous year. good day for all.

[To blame Mohajirs for being narrow-minded/parochial seems most unfair.] This is illogical for bureaucrats. By definition these people provide an efficient and structured organization. To be successful in bureaucracy these people have to be narrow-minded/parochial.

Re: # 273 Posted by krashid1961 on January 2, 2008 8:43:14 pm

Krashid sahib: MQM politics is "heads I win, and tails you lose".

Moajirs have always been in the bureaucracy. They used to ask for "rishwat" and yet they would scream the loudest for corruption in the government. It is they who created corruption in Pakistan, being civil servants from India, they knew all the tricks of bureaucratic shenanigans.

They only try to get the inside scoop and then they blame Pakistan for their lack of social progress. Being a Muslim and claiming to be a victim has never been heard before. As I have noted many times before, the only group of people who can claim to be a victim, are the Jews. Is the MQM taking lessons and directions from the Jews, as a victimized community?

[it is definitely trying to be part of Pakistan politics.] with hate as its politics?

ras sahib, salim chauhan is a lucknowite, tried and tested.
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At the risk of contradicting revered voices here (and may I request pavo to simply skip this post - the purpose here is not to contradict him), this open season on Mohajirs and blind support for Sindhi Muslim whining (for luckily no Sindhi Hindu is whining here) and jealousy is completely irrational.

First, please, let's not bring in India here (other than for offering salim bro Indian citizenship).

The chawlas, Stukas, and Tandons are all lovely lovely people, and may their tribe tripple every minute, BUT they came a country that already existed. Even they would agree they did not create India. India made them no promises.

Now this is going to pi&& off those who believe Sindh was always Pakistan for the last 10000 years and Punjab had been Pakistan for the last 5000 years, but UP/Aligarh Muslims literally made Pakistan (without denying great and key contributions of people like Iqbal).

These people had a vision. They worked for it, toiled for it, sacrificed for it. Then they took huge risks, and travelled to a country with a distinct glimmer in their eyes for the future (in many cases, probably that is all they had).

In their new country, they didn't grab the lands and the houses of Sindhi Muslims. Like it or not (and Indian Hindus won't like it), but the stupidest of Sindhi Hindus would have stayed back in Pakistan. Mohajirs took the homes of those departing people. Howsoever terrible that sounds to Hindu liberals, that is the way things were going to be, structurally. You get nothing by crying about it. Fact is, Mohajirs did NOT take Sindhi lands or houses.

In their new country, mohajirs worked hard, and protected and promoted their interests. As ANYBODY should have, would have, and MUST. I still have not understood why they should have learnt the Sindhi language.

They did not go to Pakistan to become Sindhis and Pakhtoons. They went there to become Pakistanis, to do well for themselves, and to live life Islamically, according to what Islam meant to them.

To blame Mohajirs for being narrow-minded/parochial seems most unfair. Mohajirs were the ones WHO HAD A pan-Pakistan vision! Think about it, why would they promote anything less than Pakistaniat?!! And for years and years, that is what they did. Until as late as the 80s! At some point in time, people do have to protect their interests!!

I think, what happened is this. For whatever reasons, Sindhi Muslims never did any good. They were laggards when they lived with Sindhi Hindus and there remain laggards when they live with non-Sindhi Muslims. They were jealous earlier, and remain jealous now. They bought into 'Pakistan' as an easy way to a potentially grab of the fruits of the hard work of Sindhi Hindus. They never got to do that. And that hurts the most.
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I would specially address this to my friend muthu.

Muthu, Tamilians are a glorious people, with an ancient civilization, proud traditions, and spectacular literature. They have a right to demand that people going to live in TamilNadu learn Tamil.

It may be hard for some to hear, but the truth is that Indian Muslims did not go to any Sindhi land to become Sindhis (sorry ranjit, please don't misread this, you are not relevant to this in the least). They went specifically and only to Pakistan to become Pakistanis. And no matter what people may say, they have carried the banner of Pakistan, sometimes against all odds.

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I am not so naive as to believe that one can change the minds of any Muslim Sindhis. When easy riches are denied, one becomes blind to reason. I just hope Indians will see why references and comparisons to India are not entirely valid.