This Pyre Will Burn…!

#98 says it all.

This report corraborates eye witness accounts and my pictures.
Secret report says Benazir died of gunshot



By By Shakeel Anjum
1/8/2008
ISLAMABAD: An explosive secret inquiry report, first of its kind so far on the assassination of Pakistan People's Party Chairperson Benazir Bhutto, has made shocking revelations.

It says that top religious extremist groups, including Baitullah Mehsud, "pooled" sophisticated expertise to eliminate Benazir Bhutto after a series of rehearsals at the site of her murder with active collaboration of some hidden but powerful hands in Islamabad.

Resources and technology of these groups were pooled after enemies of Ms Bhutto learnt lessons from the failed attempt on her life in Karachi on October 18. They made repeated rehearsals how to attack Ms Bhutto outside Liaquat Bagh, and after long deliberations these groups had decided to adopt "zero tolerance" theory to eliminate her.

The report has made the startling revelation that the skull of Benazir Bhutto had cracked instantly, as a result of 50 Newton force of a bullet, usually required to break the hairy skull. A lever or a hook could not create the required force, especially from a distance of six to eight inches from her head. No human tissue, fibre or bloodstain was found on the lever of Armour-plated sunroof, even with the use of magnifying glass.

"The height of Benazir was five feet and eight inches and the distance from the seat to the roof of the vehicle was three-and-a-half feet and the height of armour vehicle was one foot and nine inches.

While the total distance between the seats -- where Ms Bhutto was standing bare-feet -- was five feet and three inches, and the distance between her head and the hook remained between six to eight inches," the expert's report said.

Investigators have revealed that Ms Bhutto had instantly fallen inside the car after being hit by the bullet. Had she been out of the sunroof, her head might have been blown up and found somewhere else, as was the case of the bomber.

The report has also revealed that the bullet attack was followed by the explosive blast of 3-5kg intensity and it was wrong to assume that she had died after hitting her head with the sunroof of her car or parts of the bombs struck her head.

Investigators have also found one big hole of bullet in the scarf of Benazir Bhutto which, without any doubt, has established the fact that she died because of gunshot. "Benazir instantly died because of graze wounds of bullets which hit her head from the side and the bullet, too, has been recovered from the nearby traffic sign board," concludes findings of the investigation report.

A top agency in its preliminary report has now concluded that the deadly attack on Ms Bhutto was a sort of "joint venture" -- the first of its kind since suicide bombing got under way in Pakistan.

Officials, who investigated the murder, have now given their opinion that this joint venture was executed with the help of one banned Jihadi organisation, which provided suicide bombers, while the other group based in Waziristan provided the technology, after they formed an alliance with the blessings of certain anti-Benazir elements within some official quarters.

According to an agency, which has been investigating previous suicide attacks on high-profile personalities of Pakistan, this is the first time that its top investigators had found involvement of different groups, which carried out bombing, unlike the past exercise when only one particular group used to launch such attacks and accept the responsibility.

This time, investigators have observed, a plan was hatched to "pool" the expertise and resources of all groups, which deal in suicide bombing, to ensure a success.

These investigators have concluded that these groups were brought under "one umbrella" after learning lessons from the failed attempt on her life in Karachi on Oct 18.

The report has rejected all previous theories so far floated to explain causes of Benazir Bhutto's death and might trigger a new debate about elements, both official and unofficial, involved in eliminating the former prime minister.

Sources said investigators were pointing fingers at Baitullah Mehsud and a banned Jihadi organisation, who they had initially held responsible for her killing.

The report says: "The inspection of fired case indicates that it was fired fresh as no corrosion and metal damage was observed on it. Visible ejection marks were noticed on the body of fired case.

Cap percussion was found struck by the striker of pistol at the base of cartridge case. Moreover, propellant (GP) traces were also quite visible inside the fired case. It was 30mm SAA with lot No: 311-90, and seems to be manufactured in China. The 30mm pistol 'Norico' of China found by the police from the crime scene also substantiates the evidence."

"From the epicentre, line of fire was established with laser beam technology and effort was made to locate trajectory of fire along with hit marks. In the line of fire two separate bullet entry points were located.

First hit mark was observed on metalled billboard towards east to west at a distance on 147 feet with entry and exit point. The second hit mark was observed in the same direction but with high angled trajectory at a distance of 147 feet.

Resultantly, a window pane was broken, whereas no other glass has been broken up till this distance due to effects of blast, etc. If any other bullet was fired then there is a likely chance it might had hit the target. However, medical report provided by authorities does not substantiate our evidence.

As per medical report, there was a wound in right temporoparietal region measuring about 5x3cm just above the pinna of right ear. This wound has caused depressed skull fracture on right temporoparietal bone measuring approximately 35mm. The team of doctors concerned discussed the probable cause of wound and intensity of jerk to break the skull. It unanimously agreed that high kinetic energy as generated by some foreign body could cause such injury.

The size of wound is small if compared with the damage if variables of momentum are evaluated which are: "Momentum = mass x velocity".

"It is revealed that mass of the object which struck the head of victim is small but it had broken the skull. About 50 Newton force is required to break the skull of haired head. The other variable is only velocity; therefore, the probable result is derived that some very high velocity object had struck the head of the victim on right side. However, suicide bomber struck the vehicle on the rear left side where there is no injury as per medical report. Most probably, the victim had moved her head towards further right and exposed it to line of fire.

In light of medical report no surrounding wounds or blackening was seen which apparently indicates that face or body of the victim was not exposed to the blast." "Ignoring the security threat to her life, Benazir Bhutto came out of the sunroof of the vehicle. Apparently, it is the time when security is more vulnerable and has gaps and dents.

Taking advantage of this security lapse suspected suicide bomber joined the crowd and tried to get near her vehicle. When the vehicle reached Liaquat road just 69 feet from the VIP gate of Liaquat Bagh, suspected killer fired at her with pistol. Consequently, she fell down inside the vehicle".

"The height of vehicle is about seven feet. The sunroof from the seat is about three feet. It means that the victim was exposed in the air almost 2-3 feet with no protection in the rear and front. The shooter was standing just 8-10 feet from the victim, as length of the vehicle is just 15.4 feet. Moreover, the killer apparently fired 2-3 bullets. This scenario provides a very good chance to hit the victim."

"Within a fraction of a second, a blast occurred, just 8-10 feet away from the victim. The brunt of the blast was faced by the rear left side of bullet-proof vehicle. The intensity of blast is calculated about 3-5kg high explosive.

The shock-front generated by such type and quality of explosive will strike the right side of the victim just like a hammer with blow of more than one ton which could have broken the neck and converted the head into pieces.

However, these injuries were not mentioned in the medical report of the victim. It is, therefore, more apparent that, at the time of blast the victim was tugged down into the vehicle. The triggering mechanism seems to be manual. However, no evidence was recovered form the crime scene to substantiate it."

"The suicide bomber used approximately 3-5kg high explosive as calculated by measuring intensity detonation and blast wave. The explosives seemed to be of good quality."

"This terrorist attack seems to be unprecedented if we review the modus operandi. For the first time suicide bomber has used pistol to fire at the victim prior to detonation of explosive jacket.

The area presumably was well rehearsed with a resolve to assassinate the former prime minister. It was 43rd suicide attack of the year 2007 whereas in only one previous incident the suicide bomber used 30 bore (7.63mm) pistol while he attempted to attack at PTS Sargodha on August 2, 2007 but failed although he managed to kill two police officials with his pistol but his explosive jacket misfired being short-circuited."

"It was astonishing to note that the blast occurred at about 5.11pm and the VIP victim was shifted to hospital at around 5:35pm whereas the hospital is just 3-4km from the epicentre. This had caused loss of blood as noticed during inspection of the VIP vehicle where pool of blood was stagnant on the seat underneath the sunroof.

The more alarming thing is that the VIP victim was shifted to hospital in the same damaged vehicle which came under the blast, instead of evacuation through ambulance with a doctor." "It is 43rd suicide attack in the year 2007. The last month of the year topped the list in which eight suicide incidents occurred, followed by seven incidents, which happened in the month of July 2007.

The intensity of suicide bombings increased many folds in the aftermath of Lal Masjid in which 34 suicide attacks occurred all over the country, starting from Swat on July 12, 2007 for the first time."

"Modus operandi and triggering mechanism used in 15 suicide bombings is manual and mechanical by using the Striker Sleeve MUV-2 with the same lot number and factory code except a little variation of manufacturing year. It is a clear indicator that the same terrorist group is involved in almost all these incidents," the report concluded.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/print1.asp?id=90060

re: anil # 400

Sir, that was very well-stated. Thank you.

An interesting idea we might want to consider is - dynamics without change. It's possible that we see revolution after revolution, but nothing ultimately changes.

That's probably not very relevant, but since you are a man of ideas as well a man of action, I thought, would just toss it in the air. Best.

While I understand your pain, perhaps this will enlighten you on the REAL ROOTS of our troubles.

Love and peace.

Imran

Brig Tariq Jilani
Director, ISPR
Rawalpindi, Pakistan
Fax +9251 9271603

Subject: Telecon / Meeting with General [R] Pervez Musharaf

Dear Brig Jilani

You and the ISPR are well aware of my efforts to save and grow Pakistan vide seminars held for MNAs and politicians in 2006 and publicly available online at www.ahappyworld.info

Background
My efforts to stop smuggling of cell phones in Pakistan have yielded the country USD 1 bn vide CBRs SRO 391 in June 2001 supported by Mr Shaukat Aziz (who happens to be from the same IBA that taught me one thing “DISCIPLINE”), Dr Atta Ur Rehman, General [R] Khalid Basheer and the former Chairmen of CBR, Mr Riaz Malik and Mr Riaz Naqvi. I never asked the Government for even an acknowledgment of my efforts, while it is true that my focus on “governmental” affairs from 1999-2001 did cost me my job as my boss gave a damn to what the Government of Pakistan gained, he didn’t gain much during this time anyway, I survived and am Alhamdolillah, after 7 years back to the level I deserved as Regional Director for a European multinational covering 20 countries in GCC/MENA. All this time I silently continued my efforts to change the country’s policies to enhance foreign investments and law and order.

Past communication with the President (General Musharaf)
Back in June 2001 I wrote a letter to General Musharaf, then CE of Pakistan. To my surprise not only was my communication acknowledged I was invited by a Colonel Kamran Dy MS to CE to visit the “CE” house, now the President house, behind the Secretariat, where we had an in depth discussion. The core idea I proposed was to involve the Army in re establishing law and order in Pakistan besides many other ideas that are on record at the President House. Col Kamran informed me that this idea was discussed by the Core Commanders and in view of foreign pressure (remember this is pre 9/11) we couldn’t do that, moreover the Army’s role is limited to:

1. Give an “injection” to civil institutions
2. Exit once they are “fixed”

I disagreed with Col Kamran on this strategy and openly told him that not only is this incorrect, it will never happen, and when your core commanders DO realize this is wrong CHANGE the strategy. I WISH I was wrong then though time has proved me right.

Current Situation

Law and order
7 years down the road, corruption is rampant in Pakistan-the law and order system is NON EXISTENT, the Judges we have, never gave justice to the poor, the police is an exploited arm of the politicians and administration. Bottom line our PRESIDENT himself does NOT trust this system, hence his demolition of the judiciary, Benazir died due this gap, the PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN ARE FED UP WITH THIS LAWLESS STATE THAT YOU CALL “PAKISTAN” they are dying or moving out of the country, they face inflation beyond logic and have to fight to survive at all levels. YET I SALUTE PAKISTANIS living in Pakistan for their persistence.

Foreign relations/Media
From Tasleema Naseem, Brig Cheema and so many other jokers who played havoc with our image, not to mention the obvious: THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS DEAD AGAINST GENERAL MUSHARAF for their reasons (watch Syriana and JFK to get a better idea strategic and tactical actions in the region and priorities) – the recent press conference Gen Musharaf had, was he not able to grasp the animosity and bitterness in the questions? Who was funding GEO? Or the others, one must be stupid with a capital “S” to say “PPP or Nawaz” – there’s a lot more, and deeper into it as described above. Moreover, the TERRORISM card has been way too overplayed by Gen Musharaf and foreign powers have NO FAITH IN HIS ABILITY TO TACKLE THAT ISSUE. In my view they are partly correct in this regard as I will explain in the “WHAT MUST BE DONE” section later

STATUS QUO: What is going to happen STEP BY STEP
1. IF General Musharaf survives assassination, he is 95% sure, by my book, to be deposed as President in a timeframe of within 180 days from now.
2. Interim government will hold polls in 90 days. Nawaz Sharif will be allowed to contest.
3. Elected “LOOTERS” from any party will take office, PPP or PML (N)
4. Phase “x” of corruption, lawlessness and malpractices will re-start in Pakistan, that was “controlled” to some extent in Musharaf era
5. The country will slide to oblivion
6. NO OTHER ARMY GENERAL WILL HAVE THE GUTS TO ENTER POLITICS ONCE MUSHARAF EXITS BY FORCE OR BY CHOICE.
7. The fate of the people of Pakistan (except “party” workers) will be sealed: SIMPLE, LEAVE PAKISTAN IF YOU WANT TO SURVIVE

WHAT MUST BE DONE IMMEDIATELY BY GENERAL MUSHARAF

Put law and order on track
1. Realize and accept that the Army has TWO ROLES:
a. External defense: that you already excel in
b. Internal defense: that is currently with the “police” and “judiciary”
i. As the QURAN says Al RASHI WAL MURTASHI FI NARE JAHANAM i.e. Bribe giver and taker goes to HELL. YOU CANNOT CHANGE OR REFORM THEM (your judges and policemen). PERIOD. You triple their salaries they will STILL be corrupt and abuse powers.
ii. We need a SHORT TERM ALTERNATE SYSTEM during which time we refresh the force and judiciary
iii. This task can ONLY be done by either enforcing APC (Army Penal Code) via serving or RETIRED army personnel
iv. The benefits are obvious, the ARMY is the ONLY institution in the country which follows its CHAIN OF COMMAND DITTO, and there is LEAST corruption in the army compared to the rest (excluding supplies and all, that too at senior levels)
v. Look at the retired sepoys from the Army, they work as private sector SECURITY GUARDS for Rs 3200 per month WITHOUT CORRUPTION, their tummies are intact, they come to duty in ironed uniform ON TIME, they do NOT abuse authority, they FOLLOW their management.
vi. Reality is 80% of EX ARMY PERSONNEL ARE MIS FITS IN PAKISTAN, they don’t belong in this corrupt environment from the disciplined environment they came from. LET THEM ENFORCE LAW AND ORDER IN THE SHORT RUN LATER RECRUIT PEOPLE FROM CIVIL LIFE ON THE SAME PATTERN AS ARMY DOES
vii. Get army judges, QUICKLY modify APC to adjust to LAW NEEDS OF TODAY, REMEMBER our lawyers and judges are following antiquated systems and processes that the BRITISH used to RULE OVER SLAVES (Contract Act of 1872 and Companies Ordinance of 1935 renamed o 1984). Our intellectual think tanks can study models of excellence in Dubai and elsewhere and change laws to deliver SPEEDY JUSTICE
viii. Free the innocent inmates in jail cells, picked up for personal animosity or plainly a woman raped and held for Hudood! Raped further by policemen, poor serfs of landlords and mafia rotting away for no crime, even CHILDREN!
ix. DIVIDE ARMY INTO TWO PARTS, EXTERNAL AND INTERNAL, both report to COAS as of now.
x. General Musharaf: YOU CANNOT SHOW YOUR FACE IN THE OTHER WORLD IF YOU DENY YOUR PEOPLE WHO TRUSTED YOU FOR 9 YEARS NOT EVEN THE BASIC RIGHT OF LAW AND JUSTICE AS OUTLINED ABOVE

Put “Extremism” back on track

I do NOT blame the “WEST” Uncle “Bush” and Uncle “Brown/Blair” for their mistaken policies to handle terrorism, they DON’T UNDERSTAND ISLAM or how this WAR is working internally, YOU DO AT LEAST, why don’t you educate them that:
1. This is an IDEOLOGICAL war waged on the free world by Al Qaeda etc you CANNOT defeat it with cannons, for every 1 person you shoot, 10 more will be born, and INCREASINGLY from the educated class, not just the “Taliban”. CASE IN POINT, London bombing was done by INDIAN DOCTORS that UK cannot reconcile with until now (how come people born and bred and working in UK became “terrorists”?).
2. TO FIGHT THIS WAR, download and read my action plan on www.ahappyworld.info
3. Simply stated:
a. WE MUST IMMEDIATELY STOP THE FIGHT BY FORCE
b. We must get IMAM E KAABA and relevant religious icons to VISIT these areas and go live on air spreading REAL message of Islam of love and peace, General Musharaf doing it is not credible or enough we need role models these people believe in
c. Tell America and Europe straight “WAR ON TERROR IS A WAR ON IDEOLOGY OF MISUNDERSTOOD ISLAM, IT CANNOT BE FOUGHT OR WON BY FORCE AS OF RIGHT NOW” at they same time tell the Western media to START HIGHLIGHTING GOOD THINGS AND PRACTICES IN ISLAM that will soothe the pain on BOTH sides.
4. General Musharaf: You need to get HANDS ON to solve these problems, saying “GOVT IS DOING THIS AND THAT FOR A REASON” WITHOUT GOING INTO DEPTH AND SOLVING IT (like you told foreign journalists when they asked why they cant go to rural areas AFTER you INSTRUCTED them to “GO TO RURAL AREAS TO FIND WHAT PAKISTANIS THINK”, Sir! YOU MUST INVOLVE YOURSELF IN INTERNAL AFFAIRS BEYOND THE OBVIOUS.
5. Islam’s message is of peace and love, OPEN PAKISTAN’S BORDERS to EVERYONE, just charge a HEFTY VISA FEE
a. USD 1000 to visit Pakistan
b. USD 50000 to become a permanent resident of Pakistan
6. ACCEPT ISRAEL, all the Muslim TALK Pakistanis talk about is CRAP. Give visas to Jews and Christians. THAT IS THE WAY TO FIGHT INTERNAL TERRORISM tell your people loud and clear that Islam propagates the message of love, we are LUCKY to be born Muslims hence our SYMPATHIES with NON MUSLIMS who DON’T KNOW THE REAL MESSAGE and through our CONDUCT, LOVE and GOOD BEHAVIOUR alone can we influence them.

I hope to have an audience with the President on phone or in person to apprise him of the situation and the actions he must take immediately.

Pakistan Zindabad!

Regards


Imran Owais Kazmi
Chief Thinking Officer, Strategy2Action

GSM: +971 50 5849562/ +971 55 8094119
www.crscube.com
www.ahappyworld.info

Re: # 390

Kaal:

"...We may be confusing matters with Dharma here. The relevant motif here is not stability, but constant revolution.

Sure, one can imagine constant revolution itself as a form of societal stability...."

There has never been any confusion in my mind about the role of religion for over thirty years. My point here, mentioned Islam by name, but is applicable for religions in general.

Although the problems society face from Hinduism are that of its decay and, dehumanizing and demeaning social structure its adherents want to impose on the society at large. I was not starting a debate on role of religions in tomorrows society. That would be an interesting and separate debate.

The stability, vibrancy and resilience that can come only from constant change, is what I have always believed, makes it so important.

Religions, being regressive, make it impossible for societies to attain the momentum needed to sustain such a constant change.

NHK #387 {"So is there any harm if the adjoing communities of Afghanistan & Pakistan merge with their communities across the artificial border lines.
Afghanistan & Pakistan vanish & India extends right upto the present day Southern Afghanistan."}

NHK Sahib,
No harm at all! In fact, that is the most sensible vision - as long as it's done with respect, integrity, pride, and jubilation. An experiment was tried and it has clearly failed. Nothing wrong in going back to "START" or even rebooting. :) It was wrong to split up India, therefore it is only right to put it back together - MINUS ISLAM or any other religion in the government.

#389 anil {"Therefore, Islam is incapable of providing any stability to any country, let alone Pakistan.
Even grandchildren of migrants to Pakistan could not create a Pan Pakistan identity and are consigned to a Mohajir identity."}

Anil,
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. :( Islam could not unite the Muslim Bengalis East Pakistanis with the Muslim Punjabi/Sindhi/Baluchi/Pathan/Mohajir West Pakistanis and now it's quite obvious that Islam is not uniting the various Muslim ethnicities in the rump Pakistan.

Judging from the venom oozing out of the Pakis on Chowk, Pakistan has seen better days and it's best days are behind us. :(

Inquirere #396 {"I can guarantty that chaos in Pakistan will accelerate and become deadlier unless a Hindu chairs a rewriting of Pakistan's new constitution and the minorities are given real equality and respect."]

We'll take it - I mean your advice. :)

Sorry, I can not comment on the article but the discussion has taken a wider turn towards South asia. So, my interest now has a locus standi.

At the time of disappearance of the British Power from the subcontinent the Muslims were hoodwinked by Jinnah when he found that he could muster support from the British if he collaborated in the intensification of chaos which the British wanted. Thus, Pakistan.

Jinnah did not have the intelligence, honesty or the broad vision for the betterment of people of the ill-fated Pakistan , as Nehru had for India and Indians. The constitutin of India was framed under Dr B R Ambedkar who was a representative of the Untouchable Class in India's Hindus. This was a very deliberate and noble effort on the part of Congress' leadership.

I can guarantty that chaos in Pakistan will accelerate and become deadlier unless a Hindu chairs a rewriting of Pakistan's new constitution and the minorities are given real equality and respect.

...actually, south asia has only been one country for 200 out of its thousands of years of history.....india and pakistan are, thus, artificial states.....so i don't think they will last long...perhaps decades to a few centuries...

Ahem......South Asia is not just India+Pakistan, it also consists of other countries like Sri Lanka, Maldives, Nepal, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Bhutan (apart from India and Pakistan).

& India was a single unit under Mouryas, Satavahanas, Mughals and finally British.

This is a childish persistence from bulleya.

NHK#: ...interesting points......

actually, south asia has only been one country for 200 out of its thousands of years of history.....india and pakistan are, thus, artificial states.....so i don't think they will last long...perhaps decades to a few centuries...

in terms of historical cultural boundaries, at a high level, for south asia these are Vindhya (?) mountains and indus river......

the area south of the mountain ranges is south india (or south south asia)....from the north of the ranges and indus river sis north south asia......and north of indus is afghanistan/central asia....

th physical features alone of the people from these areas clearly define the fact that these groups have been apart for centuries.....

.......i think pakistan needs to accelerate this process....it needs to autonomise into four provinces, in a uae type setup.....

Re: # 391 i agree with you . this is pakistan's fate because it was a case of manipulation of religion by the muslim feudals and middle classes to manage a position of unfair advantage

Re: # 389
[..Pakistan needs to reinvent its identity. ..]

too late for that... too much water flown down the drains...

Re: # 388pavo

well, that depends... should US being divided to 50 units - there is enough diversity and it's a big country... I don't think so...

it depends on what works... at this time - one country works for india... there is reasonable cohesion, pan-indian identity,growing prospects... division would be detrimental

pakiland is a differnt story... it's breaking down in more ways than one...

but pakistan is a separate story...

"....incapable of providing any stability to any country, let alone Pakistan."

We may be confusing matters with Dharma here. The relevant motif here is not stability, but constant revolution.

Sure, one can imagine constant revolution itself as a form of societal stability.

Re: # 387

NHK Sahib:

"...Why `Balkhanization' strikes a fear among people. It is a perfectly normal historical process. ......

It will be a big democratic resource rich stable country (with a historic identity) and with all communities satisfied within themselves...."

You have drawn a very interesting countour. Balkanization, or splitting into smaller, is not only a historical process, but to me a history also. In tomorrow's world, it is not feasible nor desirable. Larger, better, and efficient units can be constructed in today's world to provide better equity to participants in the larger unit. Pakistan has not discovered that magic formula to build bigger unit that it got 60 years ago. This is because, it reason "Islam" was from inside - out, people thought Islam will unit them together first and then with the greater Islamic world. Israel, born similarly, had its reasons outside - in. They were looking for a place for outsiders to come back to their roots. In addition there was a real, not perceived, threat to break Israel. This outside - in reason, and real threat kept outside support to increase not decrease and hence Israel is more stable today than Pakistan.

Pakistan needs to reinvent its identity. This cannot be "not-Indian" or perceived threat or bogey of Kashmir. I also feel this new Pakistani identity cannot be Islam either. Especially when Islam itself has entered a phase where it will find / create escape from its followers and reform from within. Therefore, Islam is incapable of providing any stability to any country, let alone Pakistan.

Even grandchildren of migrants to Pakistan could not create a Pan Pakistan identity and are consigned to a Mohajir identity. Just opposite is the case in India.

Re: # 387 good analysis. i think both india and pakistan need to be divided into smaller states.nehru was such a great man that in the indian constitution it was initially legal for provinces to secede.the proud pashtuns and baloch were never conquered by the punjabi muslims but now they are being kicked.thats a great tragedy.

Ref 240

`Balkanization of Pakistan has been on the table since 9/11, I do not remember the think tank but this theory has been proposed and discusses in quite detail.''

Why `Balkhanization' strikes a fear among people. It is a perfectly normal historical process.

When the people do not feel a part of entity, they choose to separate.(Bangladesh) And when people feel a natural affinity towards an entity, they choose to coalse togather (EU).

Afghanistan & Pakistan both are under stresses of this nature.

Afghanistan's Tajiks, Pashtoons, Uzbeks, Hazaras are artificially separated from their adjoing communities through artificial borders. Same is true for the Sindhis & toalesser extent Baluchis of Pakistan.

The Pashtoons are not only well represented in Pakistan's polity but their porus borders & loosely adminstrated border areas also keep their ambitions in check. Pashtoons tribalism & Islam mix up has also confused their nationalism with pan-Islamism.

Punjab (read Pak Army) controls Pakistan & feels satisfied. Sind & Baluchistan issue remains. And if the Pakistan State does not give them a feeling of ownership in the State, they would be well justified to ask for separation.

So is there any harm if the adjoing communities of Afghanistan & Pakistan merge with their communities across the artificial border lines.

Afghanistan & Pakistan vanish & India extends right upto the present day Southern Afghanistan.

It will be a big democratic resource rich stable country (with a historic identity) and with all communities satisfied within themselves.

regards

NHK

Re: # 378,
Fuzair, I am amazed!
The oil embargo of 1973 resulted in shifting of massive amounts of dollars into Arab hands. Funding from IFIs was challenged by inter state loans and the monetary position so created threatend the Gold Dollar Equation (Breton Woods). The master mind was efcourse Bhutto. Then classic acts on International Political Economy were put to play and the Arab World was led to spend heavily in security concerns. This is my response to Imran N Hosien's essay:

"I agree with the contoure of your essay. After 1973, lot of US capital (126Billion $) shifted into Arab hands due to price escalation. After eliminating Faisal and Bhutto, security threats were created in the Muslim world and this snowballing liquidity was converted to arms deals. Ironically, it also helped Pakistan accelerate the nuclear program.
Even in Benazir's time the legacy continued. She initiated the missile develpoment program and had tunnels dug for thermo nuclar devices in Chagai. She had a very bad altercation with Raphel in which the latter had to apologise. USA knew that she carried her father's streak. However, in her own logic, she wanted to appease the establishment a la Army that Bhuttos were not traitors but true Pakistanis."

Alas! she never could convince.

Cheerios

Re: # 358 Eklavya

"...For the first time, that internal fight is threatening to become real..."
What do you think 1971 was, a fake 'internal fight'?

Let me share with you this latest juicy tidbit:

Ras Sahib,
Why are you insidiously posting everywhere this shadowy soundbite from Nafisa Shah, whoever she is?

"We, the people, instinctively know the insidious and shadowy killers of Benazir Bhutto. We can sense them.
We know its not Taliban or their mutants. They are far more sinister. We have seen them attack us before,
by attacking those we have raised to pitch battles against them. But we don't know yet how to name them."

Nafisa Shah in The News at:
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=89612

Yup....jihadi sure is bleeding india...with Uncle Sam's support after 9/11, kashmir will soon banega pakistan..

Pakistan, OTOH, has blown past 9% in the past years and Pakistani companies are on a roll...


oh...wait..

7.2pc growth target unlikely, says SBP

* Central bank report says annual inflation may rise to 7.5 percent
* Economy faces challenges including large current account deficit

By Mushfiq Ahmad

KARACHI: The country is likely to miss its GDP growth target of 7.2 percent, and is expected to end the financial year with a 6.6-7.0 percent growth, the State Bank of Pakistan said on Saturday.

Inflation: It said annual inflation might rise to 7.5 percent in 2007/08, as the target is 6.5 percent.

#380 *parents

#364 bulleya {"....i have never figured out what is gained by putting india down (or pakistan down) in pakistan.....does it really make any difference whether pakistan is better than india or vice versa......"}

Romair,
It may have something to do with the unfortunate fact that Pakistan was cut away from India and people have always wondered if that was a sane thing to do. Runaway children often think what life would have been like if they had more common sense when they were angry at their partents. :(

Interesting article. However i beg to differ, as long as there are patriots alive in this country (and there are) Pakistan will neither die nor be separated. The Sindhu Desh ppl keep talking bout, any idea what benefits it would provide to the Hari class.. which is about 75% of Sindhis??? working their lives away for their waderas? right.. jack diddly squat. Perhaps the Waderas want a divided Pakistan so they can do whatever the hell they please without the slightest impunity. However the common Sindhi only wants his freedom from Fuedality.

Re: #370

Wow! What a kahani! Scherazade would have been proud to have woven such a tale! For every factually correct statement, there are 10 whoppers. I am truly impressed!

Re: # 376 When I say oppression its not only from I-Bad but Rural sindhis have asserted they are powerful and need change in social contract at home n rural sindh , they are on war path of being landless haris.If proper non bogoted leadership rises then it can lead to changed land ownership and they can breathe. Now not easy for leadership as these people are so suppressed as they use to say in Russia Serfs ( haris) are more loyal to land owning class than landed class it self. ( if one can not interpreat homely situation is better- Punjabis can be more loyals than royals---Pun intended) Good night.

This was timely article. Now I feel Sindhi's have come to this century. ExPM death lead to rumpage but this rumpages is unique and extraordinary. First time Sindhi's have asserted not by words but actions. I will elaborate briefly.
But to now amoung oppressed nationalities , namely Bengali,Hindustani Muslims, Balochis and Sindhi , sindhis had not asserted this way.
Bengali Muslims were insulted by QAMA Jinnah by his arrogent and illogical assertion of Urdu as national language and this concession to them of advicing they can use bengali at home. Then after some years "Bhasa" riots and Rulers finally conceded. That was turning point at heart Bengali new they have won and in long term they will achieve over throw of West pakistan domination. Then they waited patiently for for fruit to ripe , then it was just question of patience.
Hindustani Muslims for long followed people like Noorani ( religious)for long ,time and this leadership did not delivered , with time they were marganilised. Pathans were afraid of their muscular violent cultural ethos and Hindustani muslims were afraid of them of physically ,of damage to their little properties. The arrogent way of driving with out fear was their indirect expression. When Hindustani muslim saw a new rise of leadership amoung them and unity lead to Hindustani muslims resistance. Incidents of traffic accidents lead HM to not aggressive but assertive actons lead to change. Punjabi Pathan Ittehad was deated completely demolished and defeated in streets of Karachi by violent means and that was end of terror. HM became masters of their faith. Even afterwards killing by rangers, army led by Gen. Babar etc under both Pms continued the HM assertive leadership went underground and struggle continued till stalement was met. HM used unusual ways of struggle for their urban Gurrila warfare. At end the powers in I-Bad conceded to their rights.

B.chis was in struggle with with army from time of Bhuttos and they were pushed to corner by dismissal of govt led by Atta Ullah Mengal. Recent killings of B. leaders is going on but b.chis on on their ways to demand rights. They are most effective in their low noise wars by blowing rail lines, electic pylons and specially by blowing up of Gas pipelines. Few years ago they blasted pipeline which devasted industries and power supply even to Punjab and Sindh. Now they are assertive and to suppress from such activities army has to be lucky all time but they they donot have to be lucky much. Little amount keeps all army against them nervious.
Sindhis though saying for long time for national rights have been not successful due to strange leadership. Bhuttos ( Sr and JR ) have/Had no real sympathy for Sindhi rights as leadership was brought up in Bombay and Karachi, london , usa etc. When Buyttos were in nationalists were out. ( Army was adviced by Power house of usa to follow their German policy, germany was in nato but not powerful). Nationalists were at loss how to show difference between interests of "Family" and rural Sindhis. They were never successful ans loss to Sindhi interests. Poor people of Rural were in love with "Family" which is not uncommon throughout world due to no leadership.

Last rumpage seems to me break from past behaviour. Rural sindhis first asserted their physical power. Death of BB was like sparkplug firing which leads engine running.And then it sustained till agitative, young were able to bonafire all assets that they can hands on. They systimatically destroyed locomotives ( 22 they say realy number is over 40, 215 rakes real number is over 400s), damage traffic signals, banks, atms. They spared some properties methodically. Sindhis have drawn out their Paw and tested blood. Thousands of trucks burnt out, shortage of fuel, food , coal movement has affected country and industrialist are having nightmares of repeat problems.

H.M. Controll karachi and people become more reasonable.
Today those suppressed and defranchised rural Sindhi's have seen and shown and send message they can paralise country east west north south without and "family" guiding them.
Hope rulers do not consider it as a "Law and Order Problem" like they considerd for Hindustani Muslims in Karachi.
HP is right now Rural Sindhis have drawn first blood , they have understood power they have and can do and now hence forward they will struggle and will be patient but they have lost in short terms( arrests of rulrals sindi's ging with vigor) but have one in long terns for their national rights. Technicality of federation etc is of no significance to them.

There is genuine puzzlement, anguisn and despair in the minds of Patriotic Pakis even parochial ones on the state of their nation/country. It is similar to what Patriotic and Parochial Indians have about the 4 M terorr/anti-nationalism that our eternal mother faces.

The difference is that the 4M terror does not touch the vast majority of Indians (on this board) so that they are immune/indifferent to it or so denationalised that the plight of the motherland does not touch them any more.

A dichotomy that I feel that is the diff between the Bharat and Paki conundrum is that maybe we may have something here. We are so ideologically zero that maybe a combination of our pacifism and hard headedness (as in Punjab could) deliver a solution where ideological rigidity as in Pak may not be able to.

Sanatani

Re: # 369

Dude - it's called pakiland nationalism... for a long time - being anti-india was how nationalism was defined and practiced in pakiland... that was supposed to have kept the country together - united in hate for the hinud...

Things appear to have changed a bit recently - but not that much...

Re: # 358

{The real fight is less about whether any such thing as Pakistan will exist or not (although anxieties on that score are normal), but about what kind of Pakistan should exist. There is a tussle going on between different groups who each would like Pakistan to exist, but want it to exist on their terms. These are not non-Pakistani groups, but Pakistani groups themselves. Each of these groups (except balochis perhaps) considers Pakistan (as they want it) as a valuable entity, if they could preserve it. Most would be loath to destroy it outright, except in total desperation. Pakistanis are nowhere near that (and we hope, never are).

For the first time, that internal fight is threatening to become real.}

Real conflict is between establishment versus forces loyal to religious extremists and Baloch nationalists. Other so-called democratic, political, civil right activists do not have a material impact and that was abundantly clear after BB assassination.

Within establishment there are interest groups vying for power and influence. But they all have one thing in common, status quo or continuation of the present setup, thus conflict is limited.

Pakistan as a state has experienced conflicts from within and outside since its inception. Rather than allow the civil, democratic setup solve these issues through mutual dialogue and consensus opinion, establishment chose the path of confrontaion and subjugation. Thus the departure of Bengal. At one time we had Pukhtoons problem, thus the knee jerk reaction to ban NAP. When Sindhis protested the murder of their leader ZAB, they too were demonized as anti-state, marginalized and victimized. Baloch nationalists have been at loggerheads and suffered at the hands of a civilian and military structure.

Instead of finding political solutions to their problems, state or establishment has sought the divide and rule policy. They offer economic benefits to those who are willing to participate and political victimization to those who refuse to play ball. Thus the perception that "all" or majority of Pakistanis wish to retain the state in its current form. I think that is a mirage and can be easily dismembered when faced with economic or political adversity.

As for the internal fight becoming real issue, I believe for the first time Pakistani establishment is faced with the prospects of being declared pariah state thus the desperate attempts to lay the blame elsewhere.

#370 Posted by salmanulhaq

""A BHUTTO IS A BHUTTO - A different view of Benazir's assasination". Read this thought provoking analysis by Dr. Maulana Imran N. Hosein. Its an eye-opener for those who aren't still 'internally' blind.

Article link : www.techtickle.com/bhutto.jsp"

My brother-in-law's six year old son, when asked to tell a story, would seamlessly weave the story-lines from the Terminator, True Lies and a couple of other action movies with such amazing skill it would be difficult to distinguish them as different story-lines. However, the piece-de-resistance was how he introduced romance by way of the Titanic into it.

This article comes quite close, but is no match to the hybrid storyline the kid used to weave. Perhaps Bollywood has a job as a writer for this guy.

Poor Masadi is a joke. I am not even going to touch his claims that had there been no Pakistan he still would have been allowed near a computer...

However He claims that Zulfikar Ali Bhutto "evolved" later. The quotes I produced were from 21st December 1976 and from his death cell. He claims that he "elaborated" on them.. he never did because he can't.

On December 21, 1976, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, late Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto addressed a joint session of the National Assembly and Senate of the federation held to commemorate the centenary of birth of Quaid-e-Azam. Addressing Quaid-e-Azam's portrait hanging on the wall, he said in a most dramatic fashion: -

"Quaid-eAzam!

I know what arrows pierced your heart (during struggle for Pakistan). The British said you were arrogant. This was understandable, because you had refused to bow before them. The Congress leaders and their henchmen called you stubborn. That too was to be expected, because they had failed to trick you. What is not understandable, and what must have certainly bewildered and distressed you is, that the nation, for whose sake you were putting up with all this, was in forefront of your tormentors!"

(ZAB was clearly abusing Maududis and Masadis of the time)

Then he went on to give details of what people from one province or the other had done against the Quaid-e-Azam. After this detail, he remarked about the irony that the Maulvis and Maulanas had also pounced upon him. He followed with an observation that among his critics, a certain person, although saying things similar to others, couched them in a comparatively fancy language. Then he started quoting in English, excerpts from the book by Mr. Maudoodi titled "Muslims and the Present Political Turmoil" Volume 3. He quoted so extensively, that the text covered two columns and a half of Pakistan Times of December 23, 1976.


and from his death cell to Benazir Bhutto

"With the exception of your father, the Quaid-e-Azam and perhaps Suhrawardy either charlatans or captains have run this country. Perhaps things will change with a struggle spearheaded by the militant youth. If things do not change, there will be nothing left to change. Either power must pass to the people or everything will perish."

Now I don't believe in life after death and so I cannot comment on any perceived connections that Mr. Masadi might have but Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto as he existed till April 4th 1979 was a die hard fan of Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah.

Unfortunately Bhutto was not always as selfless and incorruptible as Jinnah ... and did not have the integrity and courage that Jinnah possessed. Still there is no denying that Bhutto tried to associate himself with Jinnah (starting with his claim from his death cell that he had been part of Jinnah's civil disobedience movement in Bombay in 1946 to achieve Pakistan).

Furthermore... as someone whose family has been part of the PPP for more than 30 years... and as the son of the man who personally knew Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and discussed many things with him ... I can safely say that Bhutto would have had a fool like Masadi roasted alive.

"A BHUTTO IS A BHUTTO - A different view of Benazir's assasination". Read this thought provoking analysis by Dr. Maulana Imran N. Hosein. Its an eye-opener for those who aren't still 'internally' blind.

Article link : www.techtickle.com/bhutto.jsp

Re: # 364 Romair
"....i have never figured out what is gained by putting india down (or pakistan down) in pakistan.....does it really make any difference whether pakistan is better than india or vice versa......"

Damned if I ever heard a satisfactory answer to this one. I have been asking this question myself for the last 35 years.

I haven't been back to India ever since I left it; but it seems to me, from meeting with a number of Indians of the various regions, that Indians are far more cohesive than, and far more proud of being Indian than Pakistanis are of being, Pakistanis. I do not necessarily doubt your observation that India may have far more complex problems, even more poverty, than Pakistan. But they are also far better placed to address and resolve those issues while keeping their nation intact.

The leadership in Pak OTOH - whether political or military -has been pushing the various communities in Pakistan farther and farther away from each other. At times this realization seems unreal; nevertheless it doesn't go away. There is an ominously evil wind that blows in Pakistan these days.

In # 367 read

Now, you all think that Manto doesn't know this. He does because I have on atleast three seperate occassions elaborated on this quote by the ZAB and how he evolved and did not, towards the end of his life have any doubts that this whole experiment by the MAJ, working as a peon for the feudals/colonials, was the absolute right thing

as:



Now, you all think that Manto doesn't know this. He does because I have on atleast three seperate occassions elaborated on this quote by the ZAB and how he evolved and towards the end of his life, did not have any doubts that this whole experiment by the MAJ, working as a peon for the feudals/colonials, might not have been the absolute right thing, in other words it could have been a mistake whose victim he was going to become.

Manto writes "In retrospect... the worst thing Jinnah did was to create opportunities for people like Masadi. It is anybody's guess what sewer Masadi would be in if it hadn't been for Pakistan. "

Jinnah didn't create any opportunity for me, the "opportunities" were created by my relatively well to do great grandparents who became less well to do in the same area (that was called Pakistan later, than they were before. You don't know shit about me so better keep your goddamned mouth shut. I don't belong to a family of petty bourgeoisie like you do that I need MAJ creating "opportunities" for me even as he slaughters millions

Manto writes " ...Time Magazine..."

That my friends (and enemies) is the sum total of his intelligence, to copy paste from websites, from magazines and some obscure books written by orientalists and other "experts". Regarding using well known facts (which no one not even the orientalists dispute) and his sense of reason, the guy (or "freak" ) is totally disabled.

He writes "To quote (Ghulam Ahmed Parwez's) Tolu-e-Islam's website (Bhutto could have been addressing freaks like Masadi):

On December 21, 1976, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, late Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto addressed a joint session of the National Assembly and Senate of the federation held to commemorate the centenary of birth of Quaid-e-Azam. Addressing Quaid-e-Azam's portrait hanging on the wall, he said in a most dramatic fashion: -

"Quaid-eAzam!"

We discussed at length, (over two and a half threads worth) the ZAB and MAJ issues, but like a dishonest "freak", Manto deliberately keeps repeating his falsehoods regarding the ZAB to make unjustified claims and to fool those that have not followed the debate, and he does it in a most deceptive manner at the very end (fine print) of pages and pages worth of worthless copy pastes.

Now, this claim about the ZAB being the "founder" of the Church of MAJ is total horse sh**. ZAB the politician evolved in his time in office. At the time he wrote "Myth of Independance" (which I have read), he was trying to justify the shenanigans of the MAJ (regarding Pakistan) in the context of imperial "divide and rule", which he claimed evolved into "unite and rule" as spheres of influence developed (viz a viz the US and the Soviet block). In doing so he badly tripped himself not realizing that the creation of Pakistan itslef was the first step in this "unite and rule" thing that he was trying to rail against. Now, Manto accuses the man of being a manipulator and fooling the people of Pakistan to get power. Now that claim might hold some water when the man was on the rise and reaching the zenith of his career but it certainly cannot define this words written from the death cell in a letter to his daughter in which he opens up the possibility that what the MAJ did was a "mistake" and future events would either prove or disprove that (and they sure as hell have proven it).

Now, you all think that Manto doesn't know this. He does because I have on atleast three seperate occassions elaborated on this quote by the ZAB and how he evolved and did not, towards the end of his life have any doubts that this whole experiment by the MAJ, working as a peon for the feudals/colonials, was the absolute right thing as Manto religiously believes in it to be.

Now, he cannot answer me or counter my claims, all he can do is repeat his BS about me not having read his orientalist masters- who know shit about Pakistan by the way, and other tabulators whose work he spits out in news caster prompter style, calling that "intelligence" or literary work. The guy is a sorry excuse for a human being. He did not even refrain from using his father's death to score points against me and baselessly rail against my sincere condolences. Now he calls me a "freak" and gets away with it, watch how fast the chowk staff ban me because I called this sob a "freak" as well....

Pakis - learn from the japanese... start coloring indian maps... :) ...

....i have never figured out what is gained by putting india down (or pakistan down) in pakistan.....does it really make any difference whether pakistan is better than india or vice versa......

.....india is a far far more complex country than pakistan, with far far more problems to solve, due to its very very large population and extremely multi-religious, multi-cultural, multi-lingual and multi-caste society......

.....on the other hand, india has always had a much larger educated class, and is not threatened by any neighbor.....and over the past 60 years, it has developed a strong enough social structure (democracy, legal system etc.) to create a strong base off which it can grow....

.....pakistan has different problems......it is basically a feudal/tribal society, which on the surface appears like a modern country (by third world standards), because its urban centers have achieved quick economic growth over the past fifty years.....

i don't see how pakistan can compete with india in terms of overall size/power.....there are very few, if any, examples of a country competing like that with another, which is eight times its size......

......however, pakistan has fewer complexities, and can, thus, solve its problems quicker, if it can get its act together......

in any case, india is buy for the next ten years, while pakistan is sell for the next two, and then perhaps hold for three years after that and then maybe buy (if everything goes well)......

Re: # 361 YLH

That may be true - but that doesn't stop japanese to have a "tinge of envy" towards india...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/business/worldbusiness/02japan.htm l?_r=1&oref=slogin

At the Little Angels English Academy & International Kindergarten, the textbooks are from India, most of the teachers are South Asian, and classroom posters depict animals out of Indian tales. The kindergarten students even color maps of India in the green and saffron of its flag.

China’s image in Japan as a cheap manufacturer and technological imitator. But India’s success in software development, Internet businesses and knowledge-intensive industries in which Japan has failed to make inroads has set off more than a tinge of envy

+++

Japanese got a tinge of envy for the railroad sqauatters - can you believe that :)

Manto Bhai,
It's really not my business, but why are you concerned that India (of 1.1 billion) will cross Germany (of 80 million souls) in constipation by the year 2050?

Maybe they will also switch to a diet of bratwurst and beer.

I see Pooh Pooh Research trying to convince himself of something desperately.

Meanwhile... have 75% Indians (close 820 million souls) found a decent toilet to crap in? Pooh Pooh has no answer to that question except that India (of 1.1 billion) will cross Germany (of 80 million souls) in consumption by the year 2025!!!

Wah.

He He He... someones tail lamp is ON .... :-)

#356 Posted by rf786

That guy puke_research is full of schit. If you google India this is what you get on the first page. (See below)

The whole Swat is not equal to Assam or Orissa state in either population or in continued insurgency.

The Swat issue is bigger because of the nature of the insurgency and not the size of it. There is no civil war in Swat. People fighting with the law enforcement is never a civil war. Puke_reasearch obviously can’t make the distinction.

The army makes the whole issue in FATA looks bigger than what it is for obvious reasons and they are: to continue to get money and the political support from the US for the army. For the Pak army the WOT has become another racket to make money off. It is not going to last long. The weak Bush admin would not attempt to change any thing but the new admin in Wash,DC would certainly look at the double game these Pak Generals are playing!


Punjabi Town Put Under Curfew After 15 Hindus Die in New Strife ...
Punjabi Town Put Under Curfew After 15 Hindus Die in New Strife ... New Delhi dissolved Punjab's state assembly three years ago and put the state under ...
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE5DE1231F934A15752C1A966958260 - 46k - Cached - Similar pages

Curfew in India's Assam state after police fire on mob - South Asia
Curfew in India's Assam state after police fire on mob - South Asia ... An indefinite curfew was imposed in Lakhimpur and the situation was tense but under ...
news.monstersandcritics.com/.../article_1384415.php/Curfew_in_Indias_Assam_ state_after_police_fire_on_mob - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

Indian City Remains under Curfew after "Idol" Clashes
A city in India's West Bengal state remained under a curfew for a second day Saturday after fans of the winner of a TV contest clashed with police while ...
www.crinordic.com/2947/2007/09/29/1221@279399.htm - 59k - Cached - Similar pages

The Hindu : Front Page : Agra placed under curfew
The State Home official denied that the Government had asked the tourists ... Russian think tank backs India-U.S. nuclear deal • Agra placed under curfew ...
www.hindu.com/2007/08/30/stories/2007083061431400.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

Christians Under Siege in Indian State - The Forum at GOPUSA
Christians Under Siege in Indian State Foreign News & Policy. ... A curfew has been imposed in a remote part of eastern Orissa state after clashes over the ...
www.gopusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45050 - 51k - Cached - Similar pages

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Curfew after India water clashes
It is the second time in a week that the town of Ghadsana town has been placed under curfew. The BBC's Narayan Bareth in the state capital, Jaipur says that ...
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6058056.stm - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

India: Gujarat riots - communalization of state and civic society
India: Gujarat riots - communalization of state and civic society .... Even after a month and a half many areas are under curfew and civic life is paralyzed ...
www.mukto-mona.com/human_rights/gujarat/gujrat_riot_patel.htm - 31k - Cached - Similar pages


Zee News - Kolkata under curfew, army called in
Mullick Bazar, Ripon Street, Park Circus and Beg Bagan areas will remain under curfew from 10 PM and 6 AM. Earlier in the day, activists of the All India ...
www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=408630&archisec=REG&archisubsec= - 60k - Cached - Similar pages

Violence spreads in Orissa villages despite curfew-India-The Times ...
Times of India, Indiatimes, Web ... continued to be under curfew; Centre has sought a report from the state government, advising it to tread with caution. ...
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Violence_spreads_in_Orissa_villages_despite_cur few/rssarticleshow/2653716.cms - 42k - Cached - Similar pages

rf786, could we have your considered opinion on another way of looking at what is happening at Pakistan:

The real fight is less about whether any such thing as Pakistan will exist or not (although anxieties on that score are normal), but about what kind of Pakistan should exist. There is a tussle going on between different groups who each would like Pakistan to exist, but want it to exist on their terms. These are not non-Pakistani groups, but Pakistani groups themselves. Each of these groups (except balochis perhaps) considers Pakistan (as they want it) as a valuable entity, if they could preserve it. Most would be loath to destroy it outright, except in total desperation. Pakistanis are nowhere near that (and we hope, never are).

For the first time, that internal fight is threatening to become real.

Re: # 355

Economic prosperity is a good thing, but we have to be cognizant of the social, political impact that has been bought about by the Military Inc policies. There is no economic sector that does not have Military imprints, top jobs are going to retired army officers, and society is being constantly engineered through machinations of a few. Today, Indians are proud to be Indians whereas that is arare thing in the Pakistani context.

Re: # 352

P_R

{Now a full blown blow civil war is in effect in FATA and Swat. Even the El Presidente fears invading FATA to capture that Mehsud fellow, saying 'a Division size force will be needed'.}

Its not just a matter of divisional sized effort, what the General did not or could not say is that there is dissension within the ranks, moral is low, and there is too much to lose for the Pak Army. Pakistan is in a catch 22 situation, they want to curb and eliminate these extremists/terrorists at the same time finds opposition from within.

General Musharraf has been a failure when it comes to handling the war on terror or maybe thats the way these generals had it planned right from the start. Whatever the case maybe, Pakistan today is at the final crossroads and fighting for its existence. I concur with the basic gist of your argument.

Pew, from all accounts Pakistan is doing quite well financially, and in many sectors continues to be ahead of India (infrastructure, I am told, is one such area. Perhaps nutrition, anther.). But why must everyone else measure success in purely financial terms, like Indians?

It's amazing that Pakistan continues to succeed financially along with successfully purusing so many other goals, globally.

Re: # 353 Eklavya
Last time we interacted on the subject (over a year ago) I wagered you to invest your money in Pakistan (in other words, put your money where your mouth is). How much did you invest? Come on, now, be honest!

Pew, Pakistan will not become a footnote. It's too big a country, and its people are far too committed and too intelligent.

Nor will anything change as far as outsiders are concerned. (Like all other nations) Pakistan just needs a little time to slightly re-adjust its internal policies so its internal security is secured and its external policies become even more effective than they have been.

Benazir's death is too small an event to lead to significant or basic change. Such events take place in almost all countries and make almost no difference in the long term.

JINNAH'S PAKISTAN NO MORE

Each year brings a new nail in the coffin of Jinnah's Pakistan's corpse. The dream died more than 30 years (December 16, 1971 to be exact). The formal burial is now a matter of time. Now a full blown blow civil war is in effect in FATA and Swat. Even the El Presidente fears invading FATA to capture that Mehsud fellow, saying 'a Division size force will be needed'. There are no illusions about democracy, rule of law, independence of judiciary or freely elected parliaments. Yet, 'liberals' still support the 'idea of Pakistan' in the face of overwhelming evidence of its failure. Why? Because, at the core of their belief (like Jinnah's) a supremacy of a single religion takes primacy over liberal values. Or maybe it is the fear of admitting that they were wrong all along. Swallowing crow is not an easy thing! Not for nothing was the country created by Muslim League called the Nation of the Pure. Only fools were left wondering what was in store for others.

Patel/Nehru saw Jinnah's game, and made the right calls about letting him have his Pakistan. Communists to this day still cling to theoretical arguments while ignoring the writing on the Berlin wall staring at them and from the collapse of the Soviet Union. Jinnahists will continue to sing his praises even though Pakistan may become a footnote in history.

Sixty years on - his 'dream' has turned into a nightmare. Nehru/Patel/Gandhi's India is on a rise - just yesterday the New York Times had an

JINNAH'S PAKISTAN NO MORE

Each year brings a new nail in the coffin of Jinnah's Pakistan's corpse. The dream died more than 30 years ago(December 16, 1971 to be exact). The formal burial is now a matter of time. Now a full blown blow civil war is in effect in FATA and Swat. Even the El Presidente fear invading FATA to capture that Mehsud fellow, saying 'a Division size force will be needed'. There are no illusions about democracy, rule of law, independence of judiciary or freely elected parliaments. Yet, 'liberals' still support the 'idea of Pakistan' in the face of overwhelming evidence of its failure. Why? Because, at the core of their belief (like Jinnah's) a supremacy of a single religion takes primacy over liberal values. Not for nothing was the country created by Muslim League called the Nation of the Pure. Only fools were left wondering what was in store for others.

Patel/Nehru saw Jinnah's game, and made the right calls about letting him have his Pakistan. Communists to this day still cling to theoretical arguments while ignoring the writing on the Berlin wall staring at them and from the collapse of the Soviet Union. Jinnahists will continue to sing his praises even though Pakistan may become a footnote in history.

Sixty years on - his 'dream' has turned into a nightmare. Nehru/Patel/Gandhi's India is on a rise - just yesterday the New York Times had an

...i am going to india regularly now.....it is interesting to compare the two nations......contrary to popular belief, when one lands in india, the look and feel is not better than pakistan....the infrastructure that i have seen so far is not as good.....there is more visible poverty etc......

.....but there is one big difference.....it is clear that india is a society on the move.....the bangalore airport is ancient in comparison to karachi (or lahore) airport.......but there is a new one about to open, which will be quite good....bangalore roads are terrible, in comparison to islamabad.......but there is a metro being built......

but the biggest difference is the confidence.....indians are (slowly) getting to be quite confident.....while pakistanis are getting less and less so......

pakistan has quite a few problems.......ever since i have been on this site, i have been suggesting that it is very dangerous to divide pakistan along secular and religious lines......to support people and politics because they are religious or secular.......

this, i felt would polarize the society into confrontation.....the combination of musharraf, mqm and benazir would have been the most secular and liberal group in pakistan.....yet it would have done quite a bit of damage to the country.....same on the religious side.......

what should be supported by rule of law....had the supreme court survived, they would have convicted musharraf for violation of constitution, benazir for corruption, nawaz for corruption and altaf for fascism......and the country would have moved on.....

in the big scheme of things, the death of one person makes no difference........the country will move on after benazir.....as will ppp......

what the country cannot survive without is rule of law....

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And despite all that turmoil... there is one cell phone for every 2.5 Pakistanis... but only one cell phone for 7 Indians.

How strange.

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Abe HP what do you thnik. These fkrs were trouble makers in India and they are the same in Pak. They were traitors in India and same in Pak. They had a victim mentality in India so in Pak. I could go on.

The gas chambers are too good for them they should all be made slaves and their women laundies.

Scum of Bharat Mata the Urdu Muslais.

Sanatani

Re:Ranjit#288

Brilliant Analysis. Very true. In fact there was huge Pan Hindu (Hindu to include Sikh) feeling then.

When one meets Sindhis, Punjoos, Baloochi and NWFB Hindus and Sikhs in say Orissa or Andhra who went thru parition and then see their eyes misting up at the way they were helped by the locals in these areas make one to be feel proud to be Indian.

The flip side to this is that the new generation has no such feeling. While identifying with the satate they live in they do not feel that gratitude and say they helped us then we have helped them now (say by building a college).

As a descendant of refugees let me do Shashtang Pranam to my bretheren of the majority provinces that they never let us feel as refugees and treated us as brothers. Indeed Pittabhai Sitaramaya and Potti Srimalu (who died to create an Andhra state {Pakis note he fastd to death and did not kill anybody}) were the first to say our brtheren from what
is now Pakistan should under no circumstances be called refugees.

Regards
Sanatani

To repeat some facts:

It was Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi who manipulated religion for political ends and destroyed the unity that Jinnah had worked so hard to create. People like Tvarad are too biased to accept a fact of history. Jinnah was the only politician in the history of the subcontinent to be called the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity.

It was the devious alliance between Caste Hindu fascist leaders like Gandhi and their side kick the Muslim Clergy that forced Jinnah to fight for and win Pakistan. Congress' inability to accept rational and secular leaders like Jinnah as the true representatives of Muslims and Congress' reliance on freaks and Mullahs instead led to the creation of Pakistan.

And ofcourse... while the clergy wanted to keep the Muslims backwards (and thus play into the Gandhian idea of India), Jinnah and the Muslims who followed him had asked for political and economic safeguards... something patently unacceptable to Gandhi and the Congress... Muslims like Jinnah daring to speak for them ... oh my God.
there is a much greater link of Gandhi to Moplahs and indeed Jamia Hafsa ... than the two nation theory that Jayp wants to malign and has even taken to inventing quotes... you know could care less to bring them together but if someone can so illogically argue and try to link the Islamo-fascist tendencies in a small minority of Muslims to our legtimate stance for Pakistan... then one should point out the obvious links between Gandhi and true Islamic fundamentalist and terrorist movements of South Asia... I do not wish to dwell Gandhi honestly but if this line of argument is taken... should I not point out the facts?


Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: ’It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE ’HIMALAYAN ERROR’ of Gandhiji’s leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali’s speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League’.


and

’Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against ’unbelievers’ has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by’.

and

A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: ’GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?’ Dr Anne Besant declared: ’The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything’. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.

http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm

Mahatma Gandhi’s attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.



Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them


The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.


And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi’s right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".

The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.


The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a”, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded”.


The Khilafat Movement


In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.


In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.”

Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power”. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death”.


Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this”.

In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws”.

According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently”.


The loss of pol