Mohammad Gill December 30, 2007
#21 Posted by tahmed32 on December 31, 2007 8:22:32 am
#20
bhuttos got wealthy by grabbing land generations ago. sharif's got wealthy decades ago by creating industrial units in Pakistan.
musharraf got wealthy the past few years - by abusing his uniform to take over and wreck the rule of law in the country and blackmail the rest of the world with his mullah bogeymen.
Which wealth is legitimate, and which is mere criminal?
bhuttos got wealthy by grabbing land generations ago. sharif's got wealthy decades ago by creating industrial units in Pakistan.
musharraf got wealthy the past few years - by abusing his uniform to take over and wreck the rule of law in the country and blackmail the rest of the world with his mullah bogeymen.
Which wealth is legitimate, and which is mere criminal?
#20 Posted by ejazharoon on December 31, 2007 8:10:28 am
Perhaps Zardari will be a better leader than Ben' Bhu' might have been, because Zardari knows he has to overcome his image problem. What I find curious is that independently wealthly people like the Bhuttos, Sharifs and Musharrafs don't just relocate permanently to the south of France and live it up on the Riviera till they drop, they keep coming back for more loot in their country of origin. Absolute power, it seems, has a fatal attraction to it.
#19 Posted by freethinker on December 31, 2007 7:50:40 am
nasah:
First let me point out again that I am against military rule whether it's of Musharaff, Zia, or Ayyub's. So please don't bracket me with the pro-Musharaff camp.
Secondly, you are not hitting the nail on its head but going round and round in your rationalizations. Tell me what qualifications does Bilawal have to be the top leader of PPP? Don't tell me it's only symbolic; he is the chairman of the party or isn't he?
You are carried away by your love for BB and her party which is feudalistic and dynastic at the top. It is true that she was a charismatic person but as a leader she did very little for Pakistan.
All that I am saying is that PPP needs reform. It should be released from its dynastic clutches.
Mohammad Gill
First let me point out again that I am against military rule whether it's of Musharaff, Zia, or Ayyub's. So please don't bracket me with the pro-Musharaff camp.
Secondly, you are not hitting the nail on its head but going round and round in your rationalizations. Tell me what qualifications does Bilawal have to be the top leader of PPP? Don't tell me it's only symbolic; he is the chairman of the party or isn't he?
You are carried away by your love for BB and her party which is feudalistic and dynastic at the top. It is true that she was a charismatic person but as a leader she did very little for Pakistan.
All that I am saying is that PPP needs reform. It should be released from its dynastic clutches.
Mohammad Gill
#18 Posted by tahmed32 on December 31, 2007 7:35:30 am
#16 krashid: What has mqm done other than "survive" and rant hollow slogans about the "feudal/industrialist alliance"? Let me count for you:
1. Kill peaceful protestors on May 12.
2. Promote ethnic rifts in karachi.
3. Promote violence against political opponents.
4. Support a military dictatorship while ridiculing Pakistani civil society that has bravely stood up.
I would be much obliged if you could tell me what I am missing above. If you cant do that, then it seems to me that you need to get your basis straight and look through the eyes of a democrat.
1. Kill peaceful protestors on May 12.
2. Promote ethnic rifts in karachi.
3. Promote violence against political opponents.
4. Support a military dictatorship while ridiculing Pakistani civil society that has bravely stood up.
I would be much obliged if you could tell me what I am missing above. If you cant do that, then it seems to me that you need to get your basis straight and look through the eyes of a democrat.
#17 Posted by zeemax on December 31, 2007 7:33:54 am
Gill Saheb, you're spot on in most of this article. I fully agree.
Even though the below is a quote, and not your personal opinion, I would like to correct just for the sake of record:
Murtaza’s wife Ghinwa and his daughter Fatima as well as Benazir’s mother, all firmly believed that Benazir gave the order to have him killed.”
This is not correct. Fatima was crying uncontrollably on TV. Ghinwa believes that, yes, and Mumtaz Bhutto too to some extent.
However, it is on record that Benazir had signed Murtaza's detention orders by the Ministry of Interior, but she had no idea they were going to kill him.
Regards.
Even though the below is a quote, and not your personal opinion, I would like to correct just for the sake of record:
Murtaza’s wife Ghinwa and his daughter Fatima as well as Benazir’s mother, all firmly believed that Benazir gave the order to have him killed.”
This is not correct. Fatima was crying uncontrollably on TV. Ghinwa believes that, yes, and Mumtaz Bhutto too to some extent.
However, it is on record that Benazir had signed Murtaza's detention orders by the Ministry of Interior, but she had no idea they were going to kill him.
Regards.
#16 Posted by krashid1961 on December 31, 2007 7:26:05 am
Sir TAhmed:
You are the biggest enemy of MQM which is surviving against all odds against Feudal/Industrialist alliance.
Have your basis straight and you will start looking through the eyes of a democrat.
You are the biggest enemy of MQM which is surviving against all odds against Feudal/Industrialist alliance.
Have your basis straight and you will start looking through the eyes of a democrat.
#15 Posted by nasah on December 31, 2007 7:24:29 am
Re: # 10
"Is "an awkward nervous kid" fit to be the leader of PPP"(Gill)
come on freethinker -- do you really believe that teenager is NOW the new leader of the PPP -- after that macabre ceremony -- which is more regional than national -- more symbolic than political -- more emotional than real -- more idiosyncratic than mainstream -- more Pkistan specific than even subcontinental.
To tell you honestly the whole make up of Pakistan's political culture -- past present and I am sure, future -- is as weird and macabre as that of 'khanqahi' coronation of a 19 year old kid as the gaddi nasheen new Pir of the PPP.
So I am surprised that you are surprised.
I thought by this time educated people like you who can be comfortable with the weird macabre ‘democrazy’ of Musharraf sahib will be used to the weirdness of the Larkana ceremony as well -- as tahmed has rightly pointed out.
By the way a "revenge through democracy" that you make it sound so ominous -- may also simply mean -- getting even through non violent, rule of law means -- that is through elections -- or do you think that Musharraf sahib can get even with his gun but the opposition can't get even - even through elections?
"Is "an awkward nervous kid" fit to be the leader of PPP"(Gill)
come on freethinker -- do you really believe that teenager is NOW the new leader of the PPP -- after that macabre ceremony -- which is more regional than national -- more symbolic than political -- more emotional than real -- more idiosyncratic than mainstream -- more Pkistan specific than even subcontinental.
To tell you honestly the whole make up of Pakistan's political culture -- past present and I am sure, future -- is as weird and macabre as that of 'khanqahi' coronation of a 19 year old kid as the gaddi nasheen new Pir of the PPP.
So I am surprised that you are surprised.
I thought by this time educated people like you who can be comfortable with the weird macabre ‘democrazy’ of Musharraf sahib will be used to the weirdness of the Larkana ceremony as well -- as tahmed has rightly pointed out.
By the way a "revenge through democracy" that you make it sound so ominous -- may also simply mean -- getting even through non violent, rule of law means -- that is through elections -- or do you think that Musharraf sahib can get even with his gun but the opposition can't get even - even through elections?
#14 Posted by Kamath on December 31, 2007 6:43:14 am
Re: # 10 Mohammad:
It is indeed a sad story that Pakistan is lurching from crisis to crisis. If things don't get better in the next few years, the country can implode and the ripple effects will move outward into adjacent countries and outsiders like US, China,Saudi Arabia Afghanistan, Iran and India will be drawn into the mess. It is too horrible to contemplate.
What a pity, people of Pakistan have to gothrough this terrible conditions. I really hope they will come out of this storm! What is the use of fighter planes, missiles and nukes. How can they save or protect Pakistan from internal enemies.?
Kamath
It is indeed a sad story that Pakistan is lurching from crisis to crisis. If things don't get better in the next few years, the country can implode and the ripple effects will move outward into adjacent countries and outsiders like US, China,Saudi Arabia Afghanistan, Iran and India will be drawn into the mess. It is too horrible to contemplate.
What a pity, people of Pakistan have to gothrough this terrible conditions. I really hope they will come out of this storm! What is the use of fighter planes, missiles and nukes. How can they save or protect Pakistan from internal enemies.?
Kamath
#13 Posted by tahmed32 on December 31, 2007 6:30:49 am
#11 krashid: i think sir that you are confusing the term "ideals" with the term "ideologues". These are two different things. And to condone wadera-practices, as you are doing, is not the same as being realistic. It is merely being slavish to rulers.
#12 Posted by tahmed32 on December 31, 2007 6:27:39 am
Gill Sahib: I fully agree with you. Yesterday, we saw the spectacle of a 19 year old "prince" being anointed successor. A few weeks ago, we saw what should have been a simple change of command in the army to a Royal Coronation ceremony where Musharraf handed over the baton like a retiring emperor handing over the crown to his anointed successor. What a disgrace these clowns are to the nation!!
These primitive and narrow mindsets are the true enemy of Pakistan. This is what Pakistanis, led by those who truly understand the importance of the rule of law to a nation - i.e. the lawyers and judges still languishing in jail - are up against!!
These primitive and narrow mindsets are the true enemy of Pakistan. This is what Pakistanis, led by those who truly understand the importance of the rule of law to a nation - i.e. the lawyers and judges still languishing in jail - are up against!!
#11 Posted by krashid1961 on December 31, 2007 6:26:45 am
Gill:
although it is sad but true that the politics you are proposing should be ideal.
But ideological parties both on the left and right with their democratic character are not able to sustain themselves.
I think Bhutto will be ceremonial like Gandhi for congress. Real politics will still be done by people in Pakistan.
although it is sad but true that the politics you are proposing should be ideal.
But ideological parties both on the left and right with their democratic character are not able to sustain themselves.
I think Bhutto will be ceremonial like Gandhi for congress. Real politics will still be done by people in Pakistan.
#10 Posted by freethinker on December 31, 2007 6:14:35 am
krashid1961:
Thanks for pointing out the mistake regarding 1963. PPP was founded in 1967.
nasah:
You've completely missed the central point of the article. PPP is dynastic in character and not democratic. Such a party which insists on passing the leadership from father to daughter and to the son can hardly introduce true democracy in Pakistan. It needs first to reform itself.
Is "an awkward nervous kid" fit to be the leader of PPP? What qualifications does he have to become the top leader of PPP other than being the son of his mother, BB?
And Bilawal did not say "democracy is the best revenge," he simply quoted his mother. Pakistan will continue to suffer in its political misery until there are some fundamental reforms in the political parties.
Be well,
Mohammad Gill
Thanks for pointing out the mistake regarding 1963. PPP was founded in 1967.
nasah:
You've completely missed the central point of the article. PPP is dynastic in character and not democratic. Such a party which insists on passing the leadership from father to daughter and to the son can hardly introduce true democracy in Pakistan. It needs first to reform itself.
Is "an awkward nervous kid" fit to be the leader of PPP? What qualifications does he have to become the top leader of PPP other than being the son of his mother, BB?
And Bilawal did not say "democracy is the best revenge," he simply quoted his mother. Pakistan will continue to suffer in its political misery until there are some fundamental reforms in the political parties.
Be well,
Mohammad Gill
#9 Posted by nasah on December 31, 2007 4:16:45 am
"Waging democracy in the spirit of revenge is the worst form of democracy. This shows the type of democracy which Benazir Bhutto’s (BB) Peoples Party wanted to enforce in Pakistan."(Gill)
What has happened to you Dr. Gill you are getting a little too literal like a fundamentalist these days.
For crying out loud -- that is just a metaphor from an awkward nervous 19 year old kid -- being a little too heavily interpreted by a 56 year old veteran supposedly sedate doctor of science in such dire terms. I think you are overinterpreting in your biased article. Take it easy.
"what can be more undemocratic than this" -- how about Musharraf sahib's 'democrazy' -- what do you think?
What has happened to you Dr. Gill you are getting a little too literal like a fundamentalist these days.
For crying out loud -- that is just a metaphor from an awkward nervous 19 year old kid -- being a little too heavily interpreted by a 56 year old veteran supposedly sedate doctor of science in such dire terms. I think you are overinterpreting in your biased article. Take it easy.
"what can be more undemocratic than this" -- how about Musharraf sahib's 'democrazy' -- what do you think?
#8 Posted by nb on December 31, 2007 2:16:38 am
Mr Gill, I don't think it is fair to talk of what Ghinwa and her side of the family think when there has never been any proof of this, and you don't mention the fact that Benazir always denied it. We will never know the truth, but charges were never laid.
Do the people of Pakistan want a Western-style democracy? I don't see that among individuals on chowk; many were earlier happy to let the army rule, and many would like a Taliban style government.
Do the people of Pakistan want a Western-style democracy? I don't see that among individuals on chowk; many were earlier happy to let the army rule, and many would like a Taliban style government.
#6 Posted by krashid1961 on December 31, 2007 12:28:11 am
{Bhutto Government
Under Bhutto's leadership a diminished Pakistan began to rearrange its national life. Bhutto nationalized basic industries, insurance companies, domestically owned banks, and schools and colleges. He also instituted modest land reforms that benefited tenants and middle-class farmers. He removed the armed forces from the process of decision-making, but to placate the generals he allocated about 6 per cent of the gross national product to defence. In 1973 the National Assembly adopted the country's fifth constitution. Bhutto became Prime Minister, and Fazal Elahi Chaudhry replaced him as President. Although discontented, the military remained silent for some time. Bhutto's nationalization programme and land reforms further earned him the enmity of the entrepreneurial and capitalist class, while religious leaders saw in his socialism an enemy of Islam. His decisive flaw, however, was his inability to deal constructively with the opposition. His rule grew heavy-handed. In general elections in March 1977 nine opposition parties united in the Pakistan National Alliance (PNA) to run against Bhutto's PPP. Losing in three of the four provinces, the PNA alleged that Bhutto had rigged the vote. It boycotted the provincial elections a few days later and organized demonstrations throughout the country that lasted for six weeks.}
Zia Regime
When the situation seemed to be deadlocked, the army Chief of Staff, General Muhammad Zia Ul-Haq, staged a coup on July 5, 1977, and imposed another military regime. Bhutto was tried for political murder and found guilty; he was hanged on April 4, 1979.
Zia formally assumed the presidency in 1978 and established Shari'ah (Islamic law) as the law of the land. The constitution of 1973 was initially amended, then suspended in 1979, and benches were constituted at the courts to exercise Islamic judicial review.Interest-free banking was initiated, and maximum penalties were provided for adultery, defamation, theft, and the consumption of alcohol. On March 24, 1981, Zia issued a provisional constitutional order, operative until the lifting of martial law. It envisaged the appointment of two vice-presidents and allowed political parties that had been approved by the election commission before September 30, 1979, to function. All other parties, including the PPP, now led by Bhutto's widow and by his daughter, Benazir, were dissolved. Pakistan was greatly affected by the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan in December 1979; by 1984 some 3 million Afghan refugees were living along Pakistan's border with
Afghanistan, supported by the government and by international relief agencies. In September 1981 Zia accepted a six-year economic and military aid package (worth US$3.2 billion) from the United States. After a referendum in December 1984 endorsed Zia's Islamic-law policies and the extension of his presidency until 1990, Zia permitted elections for parliament in February 1985. A civilian Cabinet took office in April, and martial law ended in December. Zia, however, was dissatisfied and, in May 1988, he dissolved the government and ordered new elections. Three months later he was killed in an aeroplane crash, and a caretaker military regime took power.
Benazir Bhutto
A civil servant, Ghulam Ishaq Khan, was appointed President, and Benazir Bhutto became Prime Minister after the PPP won the general elections held in November 1988. She was the first female political leader of a modern Islamic state. In August 1990 President Ishaq Khan dismissed her government, charging misconduct, and declared a state of emergency. Bhutto and the PPP lost the October elections after she was arrested for corruption and abuse of power. The new prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, head of the Islamic Democratic Alliance, continued the programme of privatizing state enterprises and encouraging foreign investment begun in the 1980s. He also promised to bring the country back to Islamic law and to ease continuing tensions with India over Kashmir. The charges against Bhutto were resolved, and she returned to lead the PPP.
In April 1993 Ishaq Khan once again used his presidential power, this time to dismiss Sharif and to dissolve parliament. However, Sharif appealed to the Constitutional Court of Pakistan, which stated that Kahn's actions were unconstitutional and reinstated Sharif as Prime Minister. Sharif and Kahn subsequently became embroiled in a power struggle that paralysed the Pakistani government. In an agreement designed to end the stalemate, Sharif and Kahn resigned together in July 1993, and elections were held in October of that year. The PPP won and Bhutto was again named Prime Minister. Farooq Ahmad Khan Leghari became the new president in November 1993}...
Angelfir {History of Pakistan excerpts}
Under Bhutto's leadership a diminished Pakistan began to rearrange its national life. Bhutto nationalized basic industries, insurance companies, domestically owned banks, and schools and colleges. He also instituted modest land reforms that benefited tenants and middle-class farmers. He removed the armed forces from the process of decision-making, but to placate the generals he allocated about 6 per cent of the gross national product to defence. In 1973 the National Assembly adopted the country's fifth constitution. Bhutto became Prime Minister, and Fazal Elahi Chaudhry replaced him as President. Although discontented, the military remained silent for some time. Bhutto's nationalization programme and land reforms further earned him the enmity of the entrepreneurial and capitalist class, while religious leaders saw in his socialism an enemy of Islam. His decisive flaw, however, was his inability to deal constructively with the opposition. His rule grew heavy-handed. In general elections in March 1977 nine opposition parties united in the Pakistan National Alliance (PNA) to run against Bhutto's PPP. Losing in three of the four provinces, the PNA alleged that Bhutto had rigged the vote. It boycotted the provincial elections a few days later and organized demonstrations throughout the country that lasted for six weeks.}
Zia Regime
When the situation seemed to be deadlocked, the army Chief of Staff, General Muhammad Zia Ul-Haq, staged a coup on July 5, 1977, and imposed another military regime. Bhutto was tried for political murder and found guilty; he was hanged on April 4, 1979.
Zia formally assumed the presidency in 1978 and established Shari'ah (Islamic law) as the law of the land. The constitution of 1973 was initially amended, then suspended in 1979, and benches were constituted at the courts to exercise Islamic judicial review.Interest-free banking was initiated, and maximum penalties were provided for adultery, defamation, theft, and the consumption of alcohol. On March 24, 1981, Zia issued a provisional constitutional order, operative until the lifting of martial law. It envisaged the appointment of two vice-presidents and allowed political parties that had been approved by the election commission before September 30, 1979, to function. All other parties, including the PPP, now led by Bhutto's widow and by his daughter, Benazir, were dissolved. Pakistan was greatly affected by the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan in December 1979; by 1984 some 3 million Afghan refugees were living along Pakistan's border with
Afghanistan, supported by the government and by international relief agencies. In September 1981 Zia accepted a six-year economic and military aid package (worth US$3.2 billion) from the United States. After a referendum in December 1984 endorsed Zia's Islamic-law policies and the extension of his presidency until 1990, Zia permitted elections for parliament in February 1985. A civilian Cabinet took office in April, and martial law ended in December. Zia, however, was dissatisfied and, in May 1988, he dissolved the government and ordered new elections. Three months later he was killed in an aeroplane crash, and a caretaker military regime took power.
Benazir Bhutto
A civil servant, Ghulam Ishaq Khan, was appointed President, and Benazir Bhutto became Prime Minister after the PPP won the general elections held in November 1988. She was the first female political leader of a modern Islamic state. In August 1990 President Ishaq Khan dismissed her government, charging misconduct, and declared a state of emergency. Bhutto and the PPP lost the October elections after she was arrested for corruption and abuse of power. The new prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, head of the Islamic Democratic Alliance, continued the programme of privatizing state enterprises and encouraging foreign investment begun in the 1980s. He also promised to bring the country back to Islamic law and to ease continuing tensions with India over Kashmir. The charges against Bhutto were resolved, and she returned to lead the PPP.
In April 1993 Ishaq Khan once again used his presidential power, this time to dismiss Sharif and to dissolve parliament. However, Sharif appealed to the Constitutional Court of Pakistan, which stated that Kahn's actions were unconstitutional and reinstated Sharif as Prime Minister. Sharif and Kahn subsequently became embroiled in a power struggle that paralysed the Pakistani government. In an agreement designed to end the stalemate, Sharif and Kahn resigned together in July 1993, and elections were held in October of that year. The PPP won and Bhutto was again named Prime Minister. Farooq Ahmad Khan Leghari became the new president in November 1993}...
Angelfir {History of Pakistan excerpts}
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