Pakistan After The Assassination: Interview with Pervez Hoodbhoy

very nice interview of Hoodbhoy.

krashid writes "Still you have to use the scientific methods"

Who's talking about not using it, certainly not I. The scientific methodology does not say that you use "science" as either an ideology or slogan, as Hoodbhoy does, but you use it for "finding out" and in the traditional model theory from which you extract a hypothesis comes first facts only later, and finally the acceptance or rejection of the null hypothesis. Hoodbhoy circumvents the model by i) his childish understanding of "science" and ii) his hatred for religion and Islam in particular because ignorning the scientific methodology of being the only sound technique of getting to the truth he sees himself on a Copernican crusade in some mythological warfare. My advice to him, get a life and stop making a fool of yourself and of Pakistan on the global media...

The way Mush tried to paint the assasination with lever theory is a give away . Also, his blaming BB for her assasination is also a give away that he was sure happy with it!!

Re: # 141

Actually, Islamists spreading mis-information is straight out of their text books.
Hamid Gul and these ex- ISI are deeply inti AlQaeda and Taliban operations inside Pakistan. I am still surprised why these guys are out in the open and operating with impunity.????
Is Mush chickening out or does he have a pact with them???
I feel that Mush had some deal with these ex-ISI Generals who are actually the middle men for Taliban. Al-Qaeda and the existing Pak Army!!! Mush also benefitted by avenging the humilaition of being forced to announce elections and stepping down as Army chief.
I am dead sure that this is a Hamid Gul inspired operation by Al Qaeda in complicity with Mush.

Re: # 139 Laddu:
Another theory is that she was assasinated by Mossad and Raw under the direction of American CIA, because she broke the aggreement reached between Mush, USA and BB.

Anything is possibele.
Kamath

Re: # 131 Maulana Nasah:
You misquote me when you said," ..Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf gets a bad press; Benazir Bhutto a too kind one. Which of them is the real rogue? "Kamath"

Actually, it was written by a colomnist, Jonathan Power. See Below and read the colomn carefully.Here it is. Check the link.!!
---------------
In defence of Pakistan's military dictator
Jan 06, 2008 04:30 AM Jonathan Power
The Star- Jan06, 2008- http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/291151

Kamath

Re: # 134

"There is now another conspiracy theory being propagated by infamous Hameed Gul and Aslam Beg that Benazir was killed by Americans, because she changed her path after coming to Pakistan."

Both these are Islamists' propaganda masters....they all participate in the Islamists jirgas and also provide the necessary political and media interface......... I am dead sure they were actually involved in these assasinations and must have actively participated in the actual planning...

MAsadi:
If you propound or elaborate your ideas of scientifically testing the claims of Quran.
Still you have to use the scientific methods.

chalta writes "You didn't prove anything before except that your arguments are devoid of ground realities which contradict every iota of the drivel you spout"

Ground realities are what my ideas are based on. You on the other hand in your usual retarded nonsense live in some alternative reality from which your return to earth seems impossible. They are discussing your "ground realities" on the "Andromeda thread", get the hell there and leave us alone....

Hamid gul and Aslam Baig have jumped rather late on the bandwagon. I accused the US elite of orchestrating the assassination a day after BB was killed. Read my ilog here on chowk

krashid writes "Pervez HoodBhoy has been involved in teaching poor people as a part of his mission {without anyone knowing it}. "

Look man, you are getting emotional over someone I consider no better than a miserable "S". As I have written under, he is helping to promote the Pak Army/US agenda in our country, the status quo by his convuluted ideas. The status quo does more to keep our people uneducated than anything any one private person can do to "educate". He is therefore doing more harm than any benefit. Regarding Zia, I detest the guy and his use of Islam. How Hoodbhoy is an outrage against the scientific mindset is that he equates science with "the sense apparatus" only and will not involve or combine fact with theory and reason. Hense he will not consider scientifically testing the claims of the Quran, and present a naively childish picture of science (if you jump out the window you'll fall) and reasoning that will make even a third rate western scientist laugh at his ignorance. Regarding the Quranic ayas, when I present reason to tell you why I consider PH what I consider him, that itself tells us that I am not letting my "hatred" guide by thoughts- I don't even know the fool other than through his media appearances. Regarding the other ayahs, I can guarantee you this falsehood that he is promoting, this will not remain "for the benefit of mankind" but will pass away like scum, the US elite and the Pak Army that his ideas support.....

There is now another conspiracy theory being propagated by infamous Hameed Gul and Aslam Beg that Benazir was killed by Americans, because she changed her path after coming to Pakistan.
But they forget the fact that her caravan was blasted right after she landed in Pakistan also, so that she would get terrified and return.

There is now another conspiracy theory being propagated by infamous Hameed Gul and Aslam Beg that Benazir was killed by Americans, because she changed her path after coming to Pakistan.
But they forget the fact that her caravan was blasted right after she landed in Pakistan also, so that she would get terrified and return.

MAsadi
There is a beatiful Ayah in Quran which says "Enmity of someone should not make you blind so that you stray away from justice" (I will give reference if you ask}.
I donot agree with Pervez HoodBhoy but give him credit where it is due.
Pervez HoodBhoy has been involved in teaching poor people as a part of his mission {without anyone knowing it}. At one time he wanted to spread the consciousness of science among people's mind and created TV programmes for that. Books are one aspect which depicts his thought. Are these books against law, then they should be banned. I don't know if Ziaul Haq invites Muslim scholars and they present paper on use of Jinn as a source of energy, if pointing this out is harmful to the SCIENCE and SCIENTIFIC MINDSET, then I don't agree.
So you want to bring the beautiful message of Quran. Quran is a guide for the pious and not a book of science as narrated by many scholars. If a scientific fact corroborates with Quran, it only helps in strengthening the belief.
Now on contradictory statement. As far as I know Pervez HoodBhoy was invited for research in Trieste Italy and other places on a regular basis. I don't think institutions of such high repute will invite anyone for no reason.
And as far as keeping an opinion on social issues and writing and verbalizing it is no crime as long as it falls within the law.
Only time prooves the success of ideas. As Quran says at another place.
Truth and Falsehood are like an ore when it is smelted lot of foam arises which disappears and pure metal remains. So let different ideas come.

Re: # 122

"Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf gets a bad press; Benazir Bhutto a too kind one. Which of them is the real rogue?"(kamath)

Musharraf -- because Benazir is dead -- Musharraf is alive.

I don't want Musharraf to die -- I want him to stay alive and remain a rougue.

Abay masadi, here is some more advice...when you figure out the culprit for that extra chromosome you are carrying..just ask him why?

You didn't prove anything before except that your arguments are devoid of ground realities which contradict every iota of the drivel you spout. Now go and try to figure out why you work at a govt college and got kcicked out of other mediocre place..including the oookalooka community college in kansas. :)

chalta writes "I wiped ur dumb ass all over chowk before"

The only thing you can wipe is the floor because that is the empployment your intelligence allows you. Your lies about US military spending and the dumb mentality that runs to pie charts was recently displayed on chowk. You have lost all credibility. I have been given good advice to ignore your kind and treat you like the rest of the dogs farting in the wind.

give them a chance.everybody by proclaiming jfk and liakat ali khan' s shrouded in mystery events,and stamping and sealing the results of this depression causing morbid assasination as sharing the fate of the former two. might just make us miss something of a clue even now.let modern scientific technology fill in the blanks even now, and do not let them label the 'hosing' scenario as a 3 wash-that is a washout, a hogwash or a eyewash.thank you pervez for benny's biography.besides did the lone taxi driver say ''deri ho gaya''.?

Masadi u moron...he is a phd in sciences....u r a phd in idiocy. One cannot debate with idiocy. One can only ridicule it....that is what I do. You middling fool....your views and logic are replete with idiocy thus explaining ur station in life.

Us kicked you out.....pak will kick you out soon, you idiot!!

I wiped ur dumb ass all over chowk before...- I will do it again. You dumbass islamisocialist monkey!

we all know what a freak show is..we have had 20 articles in last 3 weeks.

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Masadi cannot even hold the books for the esteemed Dr. Here is hoodbouy a national icon and revered contributor to sanity in Pakistan and there is Masadi- a genetic experiment gone wrong from the union of lenin and mohammed.

Krashid writes "Whatever is his capability, he has gone beyond his duty as a teacher to work gor progress of science and scientific way of thinking in Pakistan."

He has not even gone to the extent of his duty. All he does is presnet a skewed 17th centurty picture of hisotry as he attacks Islam as if it were the Catholic Church and against science. That has done more harm to science and the scientific mindset than anything it has done to benefit or advance it.

Then he writes "You tell me what is Islam. Is bombing in mosque, issuing Fatwa at the behest of powerful, using Djinn as a source of energy Islam. First clarify what is Islam. "

The miserable _______, PH, deliberately picks up the cukoo ideas of some idiots who have a lot of time and money on their hands and tries to deride Islam as if that were what Islam is. As Majumadar has pointed out I do not accept that as Islam but when I start to open my mouth to describe the beautiful message of the Quran, a most rational and scientifically reasoned message, the miserable "S" will try to bring in his medieval science to try to shut me up. That is his fundamentalism that I was talking about.

Then he writes "Aren't these two statements contradictory"

No they are not, authority and knowledge through authority is the weakest form of knowledge that can be trusted. in fact it is the antithesis of the scientific method that relies on finding out first hand. And what makes the hoodbhoy case even worse is that he uses this "weakest form" of authority/reputation and misuses it by taking it into domains about which neither physics not he has any clue, the social political context of the problems....

Re: # 112 To Nasah:
Here is a article written by a world famous journalist and a friend of Pakistan. Hope you read it!

-------------- Text starts Here-----------------------
In defence of Pakistan's military dictator
Jan 06, 2008 04:30 AM Jonathan Power
The Star- Jan06, 2008- http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/291151

Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf gets a bad press; Benazir Bhutto a too kind one. Which of them is the real rogue?

When Musharraf, as Pakistan's top army commander, tried to engineer war with India over Kashmir in 1999, he demonstrated his roguish side. Yet even many of his opponents in Pakistan will concede that since he deposed Nawaz Sharif and assumed power he has been largely a benevolent dictator.

Compared with the last days of the Shah – and many in the American foreign policy establishment are falsely comparing what happened then with what is happening today in Pakistan – the country remained until Bhutto's assassination rather stable, except in its lawless frontier provinces that border Afghanistan, a problem area even in British colonial days.
Until now, Musharraf has rarely cracked the whip. His riot police act with relative moderation. His jails are not full. Executions are rare and never for political offences. Pakistan today is not Iran of yesterday, neither in the type of leadership nor in its degree of religious fervour: the Islamist parties have never gained more than 11 per cent of the vote in a free election.
Bhutto and her husband seem manifestly corrupt. The one chance of nailing her lay in Switzerland where she had stashed cash in quantities she could never have earned honestly. At the time of her death she was appealing a Swiss conviction for money laundering. Many believe she was implicated in her brother's death. Certainly she quarrelled with both her brothers and her mother, all of whom competed to have the lead billing in the family's political drama. She also was estranged from her husband.

Yet now, according to her will, her husband was her chosen successor. For Bhutto, keeping the family – to wit her 19-year-old son – in the line of power was more important than developing a democratic, openly competitive, party.

In comparison, Musharraf has done no great favours for his family, nor earned excessive wealth. He is a down-to-earth army man, who when younger loved to test his macho side.

It was under Musharraf that Pakistan extended the olive branch to India over Kashmir.

Manmohan Singh, India's prime minister, praised Bhutto as someone who had wanted to break the "sterile patterns of the past" that had brought them to war three times over disputed Kashmir.
But this was a gratuitous backhanded slap at Musharraf. Singh knows as well as anyone that the Kashmir dispute is grounded for lack of Indian resolve to go the last mile. He also knows that the militancy that plagues the region, spreading its infection into Afghanistan and to the frontier provinces of northwestern Pakistan originates in large part among the fighters who first engaged in violence in Kashmir in an attempt to oust the Indian presence.

There is no doubt that the Pakistani military was in large measure responsible for developing this infection when it built up the strength of the mujahidin in Kashmir. It provided training. It helped with logistics and provided military materials over a long period of time.

But, apart from clandestine illegal work by some local Pakistani military and intelligence officials, this support network has been closed down by Musharraf. This doesn't stop the militants from drawing their military requirements elsewhere or stop them organizing a big bombing from time to time in India. Nor does it stop them working with the Taliban and the other militants of northwest Pakistan. In their eyes, India has designs on Afghanistan and is the enemy of all Islamic militant movements.

A peace agreement on the lines proposed by Musharraf – which most Western diplomats will tell you is as handsome an offer as they ever imagined – would shut down Kashmir-grown militancy once and for all. The militants are no longer as popular as they were inside Kashmir and the proposed peace deal would finally pull the carpet from beneath them. Moreover, it would be a singular contribution to the lessening of all Pakistan-based terrorism.

Why doesn't Singh do it? Because of pressures from his own military. Because of the aspiring great power role of the foreign policy establishment that can't bear to treat Pakistan as an equal. Because of the ultra chauvinism of Singh's coalition partners, the Communists. Because the priority with the Communists on policy is to persuade them to agree to the pending nuclear deal with the U.S.

But now that Musharraf is losing political strength all bets are off. Pakistan itself may be consumed by this infection of militancy.

Jonathan Power is the author of Conundrums of Humanity: The Quest for Global Justice.

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Let us explore the Jihadi world of Benazir Bhutto. As the Islamist separatist movement was heating up in Kashmir, she walked into the field to fuel the Jihad in Kashmir. In addressing a huge congregation, she said:

“The people of Kashmir do not fear death, because they are Muslim. The Kashmiris have the blood of the Mujahids [Jihadists] and Ghazis [infidel slayers]. The Kashmiris have the blood of Mujahideens, because Kashmiris are the heir of Prophet Muhammad, Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Umar.”

In inciting even the women of Kashmir to Jihad, she said:

“And the brave women of Kashmir ― they know how to fight and also to live. And when they live, they do so with dignity.”

She added:

“From every village [of Kashmir] only one voice will emerge, “Freedom.” From every school, only one voice will merge, “Freedom.” Every child will shout: Freedom, freedom, freedom.”

After becoming PM for the second time, she told William Dalrymple in 1994 about her support of the Jihadists of Kashmir:

"India tries to gloss over its policy of repression in Kashmir… India does have might, but has been unable to crush the people of Kashmir. We are not prepared to keep silent, and collude with repression."

These rabble-rousing statements speak volume of Benazir Bhutto’s eager support for the Kashmiri separatists, clearly inspired by her Jihadi zeal. The Islamic separatist movement in Kashmir started getting backing from Pakistan since 1990, when well-trained Jihadists started crossing border to join the Kashmiri guerrillas. During her second term (1993-1996), both foreign and local Jihadists started pouring into Kashmir in ever greater number. The result was a large-scale pogrom of native Kashmiri Hindus. No less than 60,000 people have died, many more have been handicapped or mutilated, while nearly half a million Kashmiri Hindus have been evicted from their ancestral homes, who languish in refugee-shelters elsewhere in India.

Benazir Bhutto was, therefore, not a brave warrior against extremism and terrorism as commentators have propagandized over the last few days. Undeniably, she had an unstinted support for the Kashmiri Jihad movement. She had a similar support, on the other side of border, for the Taliban militia, who captured power in Afghanistan during her second term as unimpeded assistance flowed to them from Pakistan. It is impossible to discount the role of ISI and the military in Pakistan’s support for the Kashmir and Afghan Islamist militias during her tenure. But, inspired by her religious zeal, she obviously had whole-hearted support for them.

During Bhutto’s stewardship, the Islamist militia power peaked in both Afghanistan and Kashmir, thanks to the unstinted support from Pakistan. The havoc, wrecked by Islamist terrorists today in Bangladesh, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, is the harvest of what was seeded or nurtured and inspired by her. Her death is basically a fruit of the seed she herself had planted. Unfortunately, thousands of otherwise innocent men, women and children have also been victim of it and many more to follow in coming years and decades. I see more reason to mourn for those thousands of the victims, the innocent Hindus of India in particular, of the Jihad, she nurtured and helped flourish.

So Hindu freak is hate but Jesus freak is not! I guess hindus as usual have different standards. Ganesh puja must account for somethig. Monkey lover! or monkey's lover...hehehe!

Re: # 115
sunroof??
da same yuppi na,tht got ur mahatma.;P
well wt bout Rajeve Ghandi Z hot n spicy roasting?the same sun roof thing??;)
well..C u at Rahul Ghandi's fresh broast.
hurry baby
;)

OK - this paki foo HP's "hindu freak" hate message is not red flagged - but arjun's benazir murder fact is red flagged... :)

Good going pakis...

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#112 Posted by nasah on January 10, 2008 8:05:49 pm

still hiding from the "jag-jag mo-mo han-han" thing...

now it doesn't really matter if benazir was a supporter of the islamic terrorists....the sunroof lever took care of that..

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Re: # 93

"How do you know khalid hassan's muslim ancestors didn't kill the sikh guru and his sons?"(Arjun miaN)

because Khalid Hasan did not write "The Last Guru"....:)

HP:
I don't think you need to be upset.
The people who don't know the politics of Pakistan will judge by the newspaper.
There is no question that Benazir during her first and second stint in power accepted Primeministership after lot of compromises.
But we need to give her credit where it is due.
She came to Pakistan knowing all the risks. Her caravan was blasted the day she came. I thought she will will return. She continued with her struggle until she was martyred.
She was courageous lady. No doubt.

Majumdar:109
Still it does not prevent anyone from keeping his opinion within the framework of law.

Rashid mian,

(Is bombing in mosque, issuing Fatwa at the behest of powerful, using Djinn as a source of energy Islam. First clarify what is Islam. )

To be fair to Masadi sahib, he does not believe any of the above to be Islam.

Regards

Masadi:
Does anyone has a right to keep his opinion.
Pervez HoodBhoy never claimed to be a champion of Islam.
Whatever is his capability, he has gone beyond his duty as a teacher to work gor progress of science and scientific way of thinking in Pakistan.
I have a right to disagree.
You wrote
{Finally, he is guided by his personal hatred of religion and particularly Islam, in Pakistan's context which colors and distorts all his so-called analysis. Like all fundamentalists facts become secondary to his own prejudice and ideology}
You tell me what is Islam. Is bombing in mosque, issuing Fatwa at the behest of powerful, using Djinn as a source of energy Islam. First clarify what is Islam.
You wrote
{The guy is a disgrace to science and the scientific mindset. Like I said he is not only an ignoramus,}
{ he misuses his authority in physics to pass judgment on political and social issues because the classical arrogance of the physical sciences}
Aren't these two statements contradictory. A person is authority in Physics and still a disgrace to science.

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Re: # 103

HP Mian:

"...HP Mian raham kariye, aakhi apni izzat apne sar par hoti hai..."

Mian ji:

Before you launch into another pico, nano, and micro analysis up analysis of the above, let me help you. Pagadi, haath mein tabhi utaar te hein, jab koi apni izzat kisi aur ke paeron mein rakhne wala hai.

Kuch seekh lijiye, abhi bhi waqt hai. Itna gussa hone ki, aur gaali-galoz ki zaroorat nahin hai.

CAlpha writes "US defence budget is small compared to countries like China and India or Pakistan as % of GDP"

US defense budget is not small compared to whatever measure you want to use. Certainly, the US economy in which government discretionary outlays for defense are greater than the sum total of all discretionary outlays combined, and where past and present military spending totals almost 50% of all taxes received, is not larger than the economy of the rest of the world combined for it to be spending that much. thus far we have not added to the $650 billion the secret budgets of the CIA and related agencies, and the spending for maintaining indigeneous occupation forces like the Pakistan Army. The United States of America is about militarism and military spending in the Hitleresque fashion, take that away and you take away the sum total of US culture in the post WW2 world...

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HP Mian:

"Here is for you anil maybe now you will feel better. You are an idiot!......

Get lost. ......

When I put the heat on you, you will be running around like a crazy bum that you are. ....

Apni izzat apnay hath. Wanna pursue me? Idiot! ....

Remeber this post?
"#69 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 2:54:33 pm
#68 ....

You may exit this board ahole!"

Mian ji, I do not like to believe that you are dishonest or coward to post my response to Yasser.

Since you researched above, please re-post that as well, so that all will be at one place, and you would not look to use dishonesty and cowardice to make your point.

Please HP Mian raham kariye, aakhi apni izzat apne sar par hoti hai. Kyon apnit bagdi utar rahein hain. Dishonesty and cowardice are always exposed.

Shukriya, aapki dawat ka... hum adawat apki tarah nahin kar sakte. Mazboor hain, muaafi chata houn.

Re: # 86

HP Mian:

".... You may exit this board ahole!...."

Oops... lajawaab

Re: # 98

Massaddi Mian:

I am sure it does.

Are you sure of your way to conquer people's mind and heart to make them believe in your message?

Re: # 86

HP Mian:

Abusing or getting abused is no medal for me. These pass over and dusted off. This post of yours is yet another classical example of lost conclusions and saturation due to analysis upon analysis.

Sorry to disappoint you. Do a search and you would also find that Sanatani wanted kill me, and Laddu is Laddu after all.

You had started hurling insults at me, and have again started once again.

Yes, I do belive in "Is man the best creation of God, or God is the best imagination of Man". Call me whatever, your choice not mine. What you write and I write reflects us like the rest of us.

Hope it is not too difficult for you to understand. Or, is it too simplistic for your pico, nano macro analysis up analysis mind?

masadi, tu phir aagaya? stop babbling inanities!! US defence budget is small compared to countries like China and India or Pakistan as % of GDP. This is the largest economy in the world. The numbers will be large...what is your problem? Take it up with your jihadi brothers if you don't like the numbers. chal phoot...ja vaapis apni cave mein.

Anil "Although I absolutely disagree with the absues you hurl. "

That reflects my frustration at those that lie blatantly for some perverse agenda that is anti-human.

Re: # 95

Massaddi Mian:

"..I can see that Anil like a vulture descended to attack me as well without even checking the site URL..."

First of all let me apologize for my wrong indiscretion.

My frustration with you is that you have a wonderful mind that I truly admire. Although I absolutely disagree with the absues you hurl.

You and I will always disagree, but that is not a reason for me to misuse my discretion.

Nothwithstanding, more disagreements that shall follow, I apologize and thank you also for writing this decently.

Hope you will accept my apology.

Re: # 93

Uh-oh... that should hurt nasah big time... somebody pointed out atrocities muslims committed on other people...

How can you do that? Are you a hate monger ?...

Maj sahib thanks for posting that from me. People here think that just because they can throw a URL out that means something. Like little children that play with crayons they go for the pie charts and then make big claims. The graphs on that site clearly reveal in the figure totals that the US accounts for over 60% of world military spending, which means that the US spends more than the rest of the world combined. I can see that Anil like a vulture descended to attack me as well without even checking the site URL. In the end these people prove themselves to be what I cannot write here or will get banned again... On the other end my request to HP to post the correction was ignored by him which was quite disappointing. So now, we can no longer say "long live the HP,masadi friendship for social justice" when even this small request was twice unfulfilled by him...

testing

#80 Posted by nasah on January 9, 2008 8:10:40 pm

How do you know khalid hassan's muslim ancestors didn't kill the sikh guru and his sons?


p.s. I see you're ducking from benazir's "Jag-Jag Mo-Mo Han Han" speech...

typical...

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy is a loner in a sea of religious self-righteousness.

State of Pakistan has successfully indoctrinated its nation, secularism is now regarded as anti-religion, anti-state leaving no room for argument or debate.

the entire pakistani nation supported the kashmir (and afgan) jihad, when it comes to pay-up, the dishonest are doing the blame-game. shame on you.

In fact - it so happened that - instead of "jag-jag mo-mo han-han", it became "Ben-Ben Zir-Zir Bhut-Bhut"...

The lady fell into the ditch she dug for the others...

To quote the Uber-Idiot, goes by name HP: "It was her misfortune that Taliban thing happened when she was the PM"...

Ha ha... it was her "misfortune", she was just an innocent by-stander... So why didn't she resign in protest and go back to the people, expose the army - if she felt what army was doing was wrong?... she was supposed to be the brave courageous person...

And what about public threat to kill others?.... oh that's just talk, ISI just wanted her to talk that way... it was yet another "misfortune"....

Pakis and their stupidity, never ends... :)

Ha ha - paki's latest excuse, BB didn't sponsor jihad because she had no control... she was the Prime Minsiter, but no sir, she had no control... it was all Army and ISI...

Actually, come to think of it, it's not even ISI, it was the mujahideen, allah's soldiers who dropped from the sky to fight for him and his chosen children... no paki has ever had anything to do with it...

Even though - BB openly threatened to kill the leader of another country if that person everu visits pakistani territory... no sir, that has nothing to do with her passion of jihad and islamic violence...

:)

Re: # 74 kamath

It sounds insensitive, but it's the truth...

Besides, some people deserve sympathy, some don't... I have no sympathy for crop of paki "leaders" who have, over the years taken their country down the wrong path to further their own agenda - in the process have created havoc for everybody in the region...

BB is no martyr... as far as I can see - she was the jihadi princess who had a change of heart only because US wanted it so... forget about her,alright...

Here is for you anil maybe now you will feel better. You are an idiot!

Your indianness and hindu chauvinism just shows up in every single post. You are very quick to pick on Pakistani posters but Indian poster are all pristine in your eyes. I have never seen you abusing Indian posters, but you see a Pakistani poster and your hindutva and all that pent up hatred comes out right away. You are full of hate and there is nothing more hateful than a person who just thrives on hate such as yourself.
Get lost.

When I put the heat on you, you will be running around like a crazy bum that you are.

Apni izzat apnay hath. Wanna pursue me? Idiot!

Remeber this post?
"#69 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 2:54:33 pm
#68

"Leave Muslim-Indian alone"

Why why aren't we being all fiesty because something contradicted your lack of knowledge. A similar suggestion can be made to you anil: Leave this to us and concern yourself with Indians only. You may exit this board at any time. "

You may exit this board ahole!

Re: # 83

HP Mian:

"..That schootia Dalrmple wrote that Benazir supported Taliban. It was her misfortune that Taliban thing happened when she was the PM but really can some one ask that idiot how much control she had on that event? ..."

Just as much as any other Pakistani leader had.

Only if you can get this and its consequences in your thinking, you would not relying on distorted words like "Schootia", and abusive words like "idiots".

Then may be when you use these project your are looking at yourself in the mirror, and analyze upon analyze.

Ya phir, laanat ki maar, mazboori bhi ho sakti hai.

Money makes people talk and a shallow historian like Dalrymple just talk more and get some space in some major papers because they are connected with the right people.
Should read as:

Money makes people talk and shallow historians like Dalrymple just talk more and get some space in some major papers because they are connected with the right people.

nasah Sahib,
You are writing some gems these days. Hoo zoore qalam aur ziyada!

That schootia Dalrmple wrote that Benazir supported Taliban. It was her misfortune that Taliban thing happened when she was the PM but really can some one ask that idiot how much control she had on that event? Pakistan army controlled the afghan issue from the very beginning and Gen.Narsrulah Babar was involved with that issue since 1977 when he was still in the army.

As you mentioned, she was not even allowed to visit nuke facilities which lots of minions are allowed to visit including the FM of Saudi Arabia. But the army would not allow both civilian PMs of Pakistan to visit those facilities. That foul mouth, money grabber AQ Khan had better security clearance than both civilian PMs.
So this army lover Dalrymple instead of jumping on the Pak army for creating and supporting the Taliban, drops all common sense and dumps the whole taliban and their beards on her dead body.

As you said we have some slave Indians that are happy to paste his article as if he is the last word on the Pakistan affairs.

Just a few months ago some of Dalrymple's articles were published on Chowk and these same idiots were writing multiple posts about his impressions of Pakistan.

Money makes people talk and a shallow historian like Dalrymple just talk more and get some space in some major papers because they are connected with the right people.

There are better writers in both Pakistan and India with tons of experienced and knowledge about the world affairs but have you ever seen any Indian posting an article from an Indian writer? These sons and grandsons of the slaves just can't shake off the slavery from their lives.

Ras: Thanks for posting that excellent piece from Khalid Hasan. Having once attended a meeting with Benazir in the late 1990's, I can vouch that she did demonstrate the grace under pressure that is the very definition of courage to which the article refers. She walked into the meeting by herself (apologizing like a teenager for being late), and faced basically a sceptical and hostile group and responded to even the harshest of criticisms ("what will you do differently in the third term that you did not do in the first two terms?", "We all looked to you and you failed us", "If you care about poor people why do you own that expensive diamond necklace?") in a remarkably calm and congenial manner (losing her cool just a bit when someone questioned her sincerity towards the poor).

Benazir has proved her detractors wrong - she could have lived like the rich Pakistani expats in the west. Instead, she risked - and gave up - her life for Pakistan. She will forever be the Daughter of Pakistan. Beloved by all true Pakistanis.

Once again, messenger is being given more
importance than the message.

Lacking in self esteem pathetic Indians and Pakistanis would rather quote trashy English, American and European writers like William Dalrymples, Wolperts and Hutchinsons -- about the history of India and Pakistan than the native scholar sons and daughters of the soil who know their native country and their culture their economy, their history, their politics, their religions, inside out with their intricate hidden native nuances.

The writings of the native scholars will head for the trash bins of India and Pakistan -- but the white trash will be picked from the trash bins of the Western rejects and kissed and respected as the Holy Grail by the Gungadins of the subcontinents and repeated in quotes ad nauseam.

That William Dalrmple guy whose ancestors only 150 years ago put to death 5 innocent children of his “Last Moghul” with their swords in the open Delhi market place outside the Red Fort – in broad day light -- is definitely entitled to write the 'Last' and final word on the "Last Moghul” of the 'Last Indian' subcontinent.

Now who will read the native scholar Khalid Hasan when there is someone like William Delrymple from the West’s pimpled expertise on the native Pakistani Benazir – who met Benazir once and who never lived in Pakistan.

This is what 200 years of British rule has done to the self respect self esteem and the self confidence of an average educated inferiority complexed Indian and Pakistani elite.

No wonder Akbar Allahabadi had this lament:
“Boot Dawson nay banaya maiN nay ek mazmooN likha
Mera mazmooN ru geya har tarf joota chal geya”

Posting this on behalf of Masadi sahib who has yet again been banned by chowk

Regards

Masadi sahib says:

{{{

Chalta writes "
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp"


The graphs show exactly what I said, that the US spends by far more than the rest of the world combined
US total $650 billion, world total (including the US) $1.1 trillion now do the simple subtraction, if that is not expecting too much from your brain (Chalta), and you'll note that the US accounts for more than 50% of world spending.

}}}

#76 Posted by Ras on January 9, 2008 6:47:07 pm



New Delhi-based William Darlymple’s diatribe called Bhutto’s Deadly Legacy,


A new delhi based reporter said that!! then, obviously, all the things about her authorizing the islamic jihadi thingy must not be true...


Darlymple concedes that he met the lady only once.


And bush has never met osama ...so when bush says osama is responsible for 9/11, he must be lying..

Nasah sahib,

Re: #70

(Perhaps the stupid Indians are in love with the dictator -- aren't they)

Nope. The "stupid" Injuns love Mushy no more than they love BB. It is just that BB (and the whole Bhutto khandaan) were no great democrats.

Regards

Something written by someone who KNEW both ZAB and BB....
Those with access to The Friday Times can really learn
something from Kahlid Sahib's full length article.
This one below is from Daily Times....



Benazir and her detractors — By Khalid Hasan

Those on the left did not wish to forgive Bhutto his deviation from what they viewed as the true path of socialism. Those on the right considered him the very epitome of the devil. But how many people in Pakistan’s villages really care about that part of ZAB’s life?

Benazir’s passing is being mourned by many in this country. She made friends easily and she had the gift of keeping them. She spent her teenage years as a student in America and she retained the links dating back to those halcyon days. There is much that has been said and written about her since her death and much will be said and written about her in the years to come. She has been praised for her courage, her intelligence, her sophistication, her determination and her beauty. There have also been those who have chosen the occasion of her death to attack her.

Some of the attacks have come from those whom she considered not acquaintances but friends of many years. She is no longer around to answer her detractors and she would have perhaps chosen to say nothing had she been alive, as she tended to do when attacked. But it does make you wonder.

For some it is difficult to distinguish between the political and the human. Politics always has a human dimension. People are not naïve. They know the failings, the foibles and the weaknesses of their leaders, but they overlook them because they can take a larger view of what their leaders stand for. When the American people wept at the assassination of John F Kennedy, it was not they were unaware of his personal failings, including his profligacy. And yet at that moment of supreme sorrow and unspeakable loss, they chose to leave all that aside. Perhaps history does not really care about, much less record, the compromises great public figures make or the errors of judgement they commit. What lives on is what they have accomplished and what they have left behind.

Take Benazir’s father, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. To this day, there are those who want him to be remembered for the fact that he drank. That was the general platform they chose to attack him from during the 1977 elections and the mysteriously-backed PNA protests. Those on the left did not wish to forgive Bhutto his deviation from what they viewed as the true path of socialism. Those on the right considered him the very epitome of the devil. But how many people in Pakistan’s villages really care about that part of ZAB’s life? Nearly thirty years after his death, he remains a living symbol of the rights of the poor and the dignity of the deprived and exploited. In the minds of the people of Pakistan, he remains a martyr unjustly hanged by a brutal military dictator.

Benazir has been dead less than a week and she is already under attack. My friend Shuja Nawaz said to me, “I do not like the sudden spate of churlish pieces that have begun appearing about her. None of us is fault-free. She lived larger than life for Pakistan and she died for Pakistan.” I am sad to see some who were known to be close friends of her and whose counsel she sought at various stages of her life, declaring open season on her. I suppose never having had to deal with the harsh realities of politics, they can afford to sit in judgement on those who have.

Some of the things written about her are downright libellous. I cannot help recalling that when Musharraf overthrew the Nawaz Sharif government, there were quite a few in the writing tribe who thought the General to be the best thing to have happened to Pakistan. One of them suggested in a newspaper article that this time the army should clean up the mess created by politicians by working with civil society, completely bypassing politicians.

A New York tabloid carried a particularly scurrilous piece about Benazir in which she was described as “a splendid con, persuading otherwise cynical Western politicians and ‘hard-headed journalists that she was not only a brave woman crusading in the Islamic wilderness, but also a thoroughbred democrat”.

The writer whose name I had not heard before and do not wish to hear in the future, went on to call Benazir a “frivolously wealthy feudal landlord amid bleak poverty”. She was further castigated as “the scion of a thieving political dynasty,” more concerned with power than with the well-being of the average Pakistani. Her programme, he went on to declaim “remained one of old-school patronage, not increased productivity or social decency”.

Not long ago, this writer called upon the US government to change the map of the Muslim world, for “stability” by dividing Iraq, creating an independent Kurdistan, breaking up Pakistan, creating an independent Balochistan and handing over the NWFP to Afghanistan. Clearly his vision of Pakistan does not coincide with Benazir Bhutto’s. I would like to add that many Pakistanis have been circulating this rubbish on the Internet.

New Delhi-based William Darlymple’s diatribe called Bhutto’s Deadly Legacy, carried both in London and New York, is not much different from John F Burns’ derisory obituary in the New York Times. Can it be that a former colonial looks upon popular leaders from the old lands of the Raj differently from the way we see them? After all, millions of Pakistanis continue to adore Benazir, so there must be a reason for it. Why should Western readers be denied the ability to see Benazir through Pakistani eyes?

Darlymple concedes that he met the lady only once. That one meeting he has used with variations to hawk in various articles. Like the legacy of all historic figures, Benazir’s legacy will also be a mixed one, but it should be presented in the context of Pakistan’s realities, not without them. Neither the Burns’ obituary nor Darlymple’s piece explained the real battle fought by Benazir on behalf of Pakistan’s civil society against the country’s domineering military and its intrusive intelligence services. In his 1994 piece on Benazir, Darlymple made fun of her Urdu accent and found it strange that she should have liked a certain make of ice cream, which to him was proof enough that she was a feudal princess?

Then there are Western commentators with connections to the innards of their governments, including intelligence services. They are a class apart. Take Arnaud de Borchgrave for one, who consistently berates Pakistan, predicting its disintegration every other week. He met Benazir Bhutto in Washington many times and he has been spicing his articles with quotes from unnamed sources claiming that Osama bin Laden lives in Hayatabad, Peshawar. He has never explained why he has so far failed to collect the $50 million reward riding on Osama’s head.

After a succession of nasty pieces about Musharraf, the military and the ISI, this week he chose to attack Asif Zardari in a column called “Absurdistan” (which is what he thinks of Pakistan). Some idea of Count de Borchgrave’s political judgement can be had from his extolling of Farooq Leghari as “Mr Clean” and the great white hope for Pakistan’s future. The Count’s bottom line remains unchanged. Just as Pakistan was doomed under Musharraf, it will remain doomed because its largest political party has chosen Zardari as leader.

I should add that one of the Count’s oft-acknowledged sources in Pakistan is Gen Hamid Gul. Need more be said? Perhaps we should listen to him and anoint Sardar Muhammad Farooq Khan Leghari as our present and future president and confer the title of Duke of Chotti on him as well.

Here is an article written by a noted writer in latest TIME magazine. I hope Nasah would read this!!
---------------- Article starts here --------------------
Martyr Without a Cause.
Thursday, Jan. 03, 2008 By WILLIAM DALRYMPLE
Time. com

Benazir Bhutto's assassination is a body blow to the troubled but strategically vital state of Pakistan. It removes from the scene a secular, liberal, pro-Western leader. It gives momentum to Pakistan's jihadis in their campaign to Talibanize the country, and it edges Pakistan closer toward Islamic revolution. Her death is also, of course, a tragedy for her family, including the three children she leaves motherless. But the horror of Bhutto's end should not blind us to her mediocre legacy, and it is misleading to depict her as any sort of martyr for freedom and democracy.

Why Pakistan Matters
Bhutto's instincts were highly autocratic. Within her Pakistan People's Party, she had herself declared the lifetime president and refused to let her brother Mir Murtaza challenge her for its leadership. He was shot dead by police officers while Benazir was Prime Minister; his wife Ghinwa and daughter Fatima believe Benazir was complicit in having him killed. She colluded in wider human-rights abuses. Amnesty International accused her government of having one of the world's worst records of custodial deaths, abductions, killings and torture.

Far from reforming herself in exile, Bhutto, as recently as this fall, kept a studied distance from the lawyers' movement that led the civil protests against President Pervez Musharraf's unconstitutional attempts to manipulate the Supreme Court. She also sidelined those in her party who supported the lawyers. Later, she said nothing to stop Musharraf from ordering the expulsion of Nawaz Sharif to Saudi Arabia, which removed from the election her most formidable democratic opponent. Many of her supporters regarded her deal with Musharraf as a betrayal of all her party stood for. Her final act, in her will, was to hand her party to her husband, as if it were her personal family fief.

Bhutto was a notably inept administrator. During her first, 20-month premiership, she failed to pass a single piece of major legislation, and during her two periods in power, she did almost nothing to help the liberal causes she espoused so enthusiastically to the Western media. Instead, it was under her watch that Pakistan's secret service, the ISI, helped arm the Taliban and facilitate its rise to power in Afghanistan. And she did nothing to rein in the agency's disastrous policy of training Islamist jihadis to do the ISI's dirty work elsewhere. As a young correspondent covering the conflict in Kashmir in the late 1980s and early '90s, I saw how, during her premiership, Pakistan sidelined the Kashmiris' secular resistance movement and instead gave aid and training to the brutal Islamist groups created and controlled by the government. Had Bhutto taken a more robust stance toward the jihadis her intelligence services were patronizing, it is quite possible that 9/11 would never have happened--and she would still be alive.

Bhutto was above all a feudal landowner (her family had a lot of property in Sindh province) with the sense of entitlement this produced. Democracy has never thrived in Pakistan in part because landowning remains the base from which politicians emerge. Pakistani democracy is really a form of elective feudalism. Bhutto nominated her feudal friends and allies for seats, and these landowners made sure their peasants voted them in.

Behind Pakistan's swings between military government and democracy lies a continuity of élitist interests: to some extent, Pakistan's industrial, military and landowning classes are all interrelated, and they look after one another. They do not, however, do much for the poor. The government education system barely functions in Pakistan, and for the have-nots, justice is almost impossible to come by. This pushes the poor into the arms of fundamentalists.
Western commentators tend to see political Islam as an antiliberal and irrational form of "Islamo-fascism." Yet much of the Islamists' success in Pakistan and elsewhere comes from their ability to portray themselves as champions of social justice, fighting Westernized élites--like Benazir Bhutto. Her reputation for corruption was gold dust to these Islamic revolutionaries, just as the excesses of the Shah were to his opponents in Iran 30 years earlier. During Bhutto's government, Pakistan was declared one of the most corrupt nations in the world, and she and her husband Asif Ali Zardari were charged with jointly laundering no less than $1.5 billion through Swiss bank accounts. (The charges against Zardari still stand.)

Corruption among the élite and the failure of the state to provide justice and the most basic necessities for the poor are two of the principal reasons for the rise of the Islamists in Pakistan. They are the only force capable of taking on the country's landowners and their military cousins. That is why, in recent elections, the Islamists have hugely increased their share of the vote and why they now control much of the west of the country. Benazir Bhutto was a brave, gutsy, secular and liberal woman. But she was a central part of Pakistan's problems, not a solution to them.

Dalrymple's latest book, The Last Mughal: The Fall of a Dynasty, Delhi, 1857, was awarded the Duff Cooper Prize for history

Re: # 72 Mohar11!

It is unfair on your part not to extend one's sympathy for the grieving family no matter who they are, for they are no part of this Tamasha!

Kamath

Re: # 71 Nasah:
Now now Nasah dear boy: Salaam!

At this rate I don't think you can think straight and seperate two issues ie. military Vs Benazir Bhutto's Beatification by her supporters. Atleast some of her supporters can not think straight- just crowd mentality!

Next time when you see her photograph in a public place would you beat your chest and wail for a lost soul?

Kamath

[...dead mother of three children...]

well, one child is already on taliban hitlist, the one who is the chief of PPP now, at 19 years of age... most likely he will follow the mom to the heaven...

There were a lot of mothers and children been killed by jihad this mother sponsored... so what are you going to do?... this is how things happen in pakiland...

"You agree he (Hoodbhoy) is not a dumb moron from Sind!!" (Kamath)

Of course I agree -- I also agree that Einstein was not a dumb moron from Sind either -- yet Einstein used to beat his wife regularly -- with which I don't agree.

Kamath miaN why don't you understand -- that you can be Abussalam -- even bigger that Einstein in particle physics -- and yet go to Stockholm with two wives on each side to receive the Nobel Prize -- and still be called noble -- and for me Dr. Hoodbhoy is still a noble soul -- despite his beating of a dead wife and a dead mother of three children.

"She promoted Taleban in Pakistan, failed to remove Blasphemy and Hudood laws.:" (Kamath miaN)

Army promoted Taleban in Pakistan -- remember "strategic depth" -- "failed to remove Blasphemy and Husood laws" -- you surely have high expectations from a lowly frail woman in a "MANLY' medieval Pakistan -- a 'woman' who could not even visit the nuclear sites -- but you are upset at her because she did not remove those centuries ole entrenched monstrosities with a wave of her bangles -- saying be gone and they are gone -- did you want her to be assassinated 20 years ago

your enlightened Macho Musharraf could not clean those two shits in 10 years of a very secure absolute rule -- and you expect Benazir to do that in 2 very insecure years.

Man you are not only naive u r woman-biased male chauvinist pig -- such high expections from Benazir but none from the real male chauvinist pig Musharraf -- I would not take you seriously if you continue to show such an unbalanced comparative mind.

Perhaps the stupid Indians are in love with the dictator -- aren't they -- in fact in their hearts of hearts they ache and bleed for an army dictator in India -- to 'run their trains on time' -- don't they -- or to order them around with waving batons and barking orders.

ah those good old days of british Raj -- where have all those angrezi flowers gone -- alas no Field Marshall Manmohan Singh -- not even Maha Raja Manmohan Singh to take care of their order-craving Indian raiyat!

Re: # 66

Good article...

but this was all very clear before... some people, like nasah, just fail to learn the lesson... BB is no martyr, she was the chief jihad driver in her time and she paid for her sins... justice served...

Same thing will happen to Mushy and other such jihad lovers... all in good time... it's the karma...

Re: # 47
Did You say,",..On contrary - Mushy for once is right... BB is responsible for her own death - at hands of taliban she helped created..."

Actually this statement is not true. BB's government funded the Talibani movement to bleed Hindoostan.

Kamath

Nasah, dear friend! Salaam.
Did you say,"..Dr. Hoodbhoy is a great scientist, great humanitarian, great antinuclear activist great educationist great physicist with a knack for explaining complex physical science riddles in easily understandable terms with originality..." in your post? You agree he is not a dumb moron from Sind!!
---------
Now now control yourself Nasah!

What I find most embarrassing and cringing is that Men and Women mostly from South Asia ( India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc.) going berserk when they show their grief or sorrow at times. Tears roll down their the cheeks, they cry, pull their hair, beat their chests and wail loudly and curse! What a pathetic picture! That is what they did in New Jersey and in Toronto, in Karachi and Pindi.

That is what Benazir’s supporters have been doing all these days! That is what they did in New Jersey and in Toronto. Ooops - I forgot! Then they burn cars, businesses, loot, and kill and destroy their own if they are in Pakistan or in Delhi. !

Now why should Hoodbhoy criticize BB? Does have axe to grind against her? Now here comes one of your juvenile statements that Hoodbhoy is no political scientist to make a comment about her life! Really. Keep two political scientists side by side. They differ offer different interpretations. Some of it can be lots of Baloney and hot air.

What he said and wrote about her is all true. Her life is an open book for any one to see and read! Unless a person is illiterate and moron, one should be able to judge what she did to her country during her tenure. She was indeed a gutsy woman, secular etc. but, demagogue. If you keep aside your illogical thinking you may-God willing- come to the same conclusion!

She promoted Taleban in Pakistan, failed to remove Blasphemy and Hudood laws.: The whole idea of a woman’s evidence is equal to half of man’s. And it required four men to witness to verify the occurrence of rape of a woman is abhoring! These cursed laws were never removed during her administration! What else did she do for the poor in Pakistan? Should I say more?

Her family deserves sympathies from everyone so also millions of other unfortunates in Pakistan and else where. But you supporters who howl at the slightest criticism of hers should not turn blind eye to her flaws?

Now if you like go back to your wailing!

Wa Salaam, Wa Salaam.

Kamath

MARTYR OF DEMOCRACY
Author: Francois Gautier on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 02:19 AM Printable page Email to a friend
Francois Gautier


Prime Minister Manmohan Singh described Benzair Bhutto as 'one of the outstanding leaders of our sub-continent, who always looked for reconciliation between India and Pakistan'.

Most magazines are doing cover stories on her.

Bhutto is on the verge of becoming a 'martyr of democracy'. It is a sad that a mother of three children was so brutally killed and we all mourn her terrible death.

Nevertheless, truth must be told. For, as usual, what the press says is not exactly what happened.

Firstly, under Bhutto, anti-Indian terrorism in the Kashmir region was fostered and increased. Benazir was also directly responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Kashmir.

"She was instrumental in sponsoring jihad, openly inciting militants to intensify terrorism in India," says Ajai Sahni, the executive director of the New Delhi-based Institute for Conflict Management. "I find it very difficult to discover a single element with her relationship to India that is positive and for the betterment of her country or the region," he adds.

Remember how she was shouting her slogans of azaadi, and exhorting the people of Kashmir to cut Jagmohan, then governor of the state, into pieces, as in "jag-jag, mo-mo, han-han". She would say this while making chopping motions with her right hand as it moved from her left wrist to the elbow, leaving nobody in any doubt as to what she meant.

Secondly, under Bhutto, the Taliban formed and, helped by Pakistan's intelligence service, swept across Afghanistan and later hosted Osama bin Laden. It is a bit of an irony that she may have been killed by the very people she helped foster if at all she was murdered.

Thirdly, she deliberately increased tension levels and then threatened India with a pre-emptive nuclear strike. The tension peaked when Bhutto repeated her late father's immortal boast of waging a 1,000-year war against India. Even Rajiv Gandhi was forced to mock her in Parliament, asking if those who talked of a 1,000-year war could last even a 1,000 hours.

And fourthly, in her last speech before she died, she alluded to India as one of the threats Pakistan had to face, implying that if she was elected she would deal firmly with it.

Then why is it that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh calls her a friend of India and that Indians mount candlelight vigils in the Gateway of India for her?

I interviewed Benazir Bhutto twice, the second time as she was campaigning to be re-elected for a second term. The first question I asked, was about Kashmir, as she was the one who had called for Azad Kashmir, a Kashmir free from India, which had triggered the ethnic cleansing of most of the Hindus of the Valley of Kashmir -- 400,000 of them had to flee their ancestral land.

"You know," she answered, "You have to understand the Pakistani point of view on Kashmir. If one goes by the logic of Partition, then at least the Kashmir valley, which is in great majority Muslim -- and it should be emphasised that for long the Hindus Pandits in Kashmir exploited and dominated the Muslims, who are getting back at them today -- should have reverted to Pakistan. But let us say that officially we want to help grant Kashmiris their right to self-determination."

"That's the only reason?" I continued.

"No," answered Benazir. "It should be clear also that Pakistan never forgot the humiliating loss of Bangladesh at the hands of India, although India claims it only helped Bangladesh to gain its freedom in the face of what the Bangladeshis say was Pakistani genocide. Zia's emergence was a result of that humiliation."

"But Zia hanged your father" I interrupted.

"Yes and I hate him and god the almighty already punished him for that," said Benazir, alluding to Zia's death in a plane crash. "But Zia did one thing right, he started the whole policy of proxy war by supporting the separatist movements in Punjab and Kashmir, as a way of getting back at India."

"What about Pakistan' nuclear bomb?" I asked.

"That's my father's work," she said proudly. "He realised, after having lost the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, that both numerically and strategically, we can never beat India in a conventional conflict. Thus he initiated the programme by saying that 'We will get the nuclear bomb, even if we have to eat grass'."

"But is it not a dangerous weapon if it falls in the hands of the fundamentalists of your country?" I asked.

"No such danger," Benazir answered. "Anyway, it is not only a deterrent against India's military conventional superiority and an answer to India's own nuclear capability, but also the ultimate weapon to re-assert Islam's moral superiority."

"We in Europe are going to unite in a Common Market, why don't Pakistan and India forget their differences and form some kind of confederation with other South Asian countries, instead of killing each other?" I asked.

"Pakistan and India were never one country," answered the imperious lady. "They were only kept together by force, whether by Mauryan, Moghul or British rule. Hindus have recognised the reality of Islam, and we needed our own country to feel free."

I was flabbergasted: here was a lady educated in Oxford and Harvard, who mouthed such irrational statements. She spoke good English, was pretty, articulate and pleased the press.

But when in power, she had to resort to anti-Indianism to please her voters. Her husband was known as Mr. 10 Per Cent. She was hounded out of power twice for incompetence and corruption.

Is she then a martyr of democracy?

History will tell.

Re: # 59

Massaddi Mian:

Afsoos, Massaddi Mian.
"....Another fool who knows not a thing except blurting out blatant falsehoods. Out of the around 1.1 trillion spent around the world on the military, the US accounts for over $650 billion..."

From Chaltahai:
".... http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp ...."

Afsoos, Massaddi Mian, bahut afsoos.
Kya aap chullu bhar pani mein doob saktein hain?

Kyon, itne kabil dimag ko kharab kar dala hai. Dimaagon ka khuda aap ko muaaf nahin karega.

Re: # 47

Very True and perceptive!!

BB did help create her monsters who killed her.

Yes, it all comes back. Nobody, even the Prophet, would have evaded the fruits of their evil karmas.

Asadi,

I didnt flag ur posts.

U may disagree but u call names (swine etc.,) & not be banned. Sorry :(

they have also nice graphs which can make the understanding of large numbers rather easy for even a trisomy 13 baby like yourself. You product of a cousin marriage you!! :P

god, masadi you an idiot http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp

now shut the fk up and go blow the CW Mills doll while dressed up as Beverly Sills.

Chowk staff this is BS, retards here post pages and pages worth of copy pastes because they cannot think worth a fart. You need to put a word limit on interacts. We don't need these fools ruining these discussions with absurd nonsense and promotional BS.

chalta writes " US doesn't spend more than rest of the world combined on military either in absolute dollar or on a % basis. rag tags drive planes through buildings which only chutiyas replete with unfounded logic can refute"

Another fool who knows not a thing except blurting out blatant falsehoods. Out of the around 1.1 trillion spent around the world on t