Pakistan's Flawed and Feudal Princess

#222 Posted by tahmed32

“1. Is the US influence due to some evil intent on the part of the US, or is it necessitated by conditions created in Pakistan by ambitious, lawless dictators? Why is US influence not an issue in neighboring India or Turkey or indeed any other democratic country in the world?”

The US influence in Pakistan is not something new that I need to go into the history to trace that. Still, Pakistan is hooked up with the US since at least 1954 when Pakistan signed Defense pacts with the US. Pakistan and the US relations are never of equal and they cannot be as Pakistan is pretty much dependent on US aid, both military and financial. I don’t know what is evil and what is not but the US certainly has global interests and Pakistan does not. If Pakistan supports the US in its Global interest then only evil would come out of it like the aftermath of the afghan war. I don’t know if you would qualify that as evil but I would!

Every country in the world is different and they create relationships with larger powers based on their national interests. India did not have a close relationship with the US. India was allied with the SU. Now India is changing pattern and the first thing it gets tied into is the nuke agreement which is more satisfying to US goals than of Indian. Turkey along with Israel forms the alliance that the US has in the Middle East. We have yet to see any positive role played by Turkey in the Middle East. Turkey too is tied up with the US in multiple alliances. Obviously, like Pakistan, Turkey too does not have many global ambitions but it sides with the US in its all adventures. Most of the blame, as you said, goes to the Pakistan army which for its own nefarious designs to control the country and it resources, made Pakistan reliant on the US aid alone.

2. What is the nature of this US influence?... The US government - even the Bush government with all its faults - echoed the CJ's call for free and fair elections…. These are issues that are understood in the US even by Bush (who is the sole head of state i know who has echoed the CJ's call for free and fair elections) because these are issues that the US revolutionaries themselves fought for two centuries ago.”

Yes, on paper all this looks good. But when the US ignores the CJ dismissal, ignore the emergency, presses Pakistan politicians to work with the Army, discount the suspension of the Supreme Court, has no input as to why the CJ is still under house arrest, agrees with the election postponement even before the Pak government announced it. Suggested that UN investigations are not required even before the Pakistan government said no then you wanna question the motives. The US at this time only wants to work with the army and how is that supporting the democracy in Pakistan? There are many more instances of the US love for democracy in Pakistan. The US supported Zia UL Haq, The US supported Ayub dictatorship. I guess you would call that love for democracy but I wouldn’t.
Haathi kay daant khanay kay aur Dikhana kay aur.

tahmed writes "i shall be back later to check your work. So, calm down, think hard, and give me a proper answer."

The fool thinks that by repeating his falsehood he can prove something. Read our debates of the past, he always claims this bs, then puts his tail between his legs and runs off. The people here are not fools they understand what the US stands for viz a viz the Third World, they also understand that each country is different in it geostrategic importance to the US and hence the level and pattern of interference is different. For Pakistan that curse filled interference occurs through the military, in Turkey the situation is much the same though not as intense, a pretense of democracy is allowed though the military can still get rid of the civilian government under the guise of protecting the constitution...

tahmed writes "We" in this case is Turkey and the US, and the speaker is the elected Prime Minister Turkey, Abudullah Gul. Now you go tell the 60 million or so Turks why you are smarter than them and why Gul is a peon of the west."

Rhetoric based on master symbols of democracy for mass public consumption is no new trick that is used by those wanting to deceive their public. Abdullah Gul knows very well what "Values" the US elite espose when they talk to his military directly trying to subvert democracy as they were doing prior to the Iraq war and as this very man was complaining. Listen carefully and listen well there is NO value that the US elite and by extension their public espouse more than the value of money making and money grabbing, based on that value all other "values" are up for manipulation and sale...

masadi: quit stalling - go back re-read my post #222 where the two questions are listed. then come back and give me a substantive answer (no gibberish, no abuse). i shall be back later to check your work. So, calm down, think hard, and give me a proper answer.

tahmed writes "SO my questions remain unanswered"

Not a single point of your distractions trying to distract away from US interference in Pakistan by throwing out other countries (which are different to Pakistan in many ways)were ignored by me. Tell us WHICH question remained unanswered, not a single one but liars like you are masters at deception. Know for a fact that were it not for US support for dictatorship in Pakistan and the Pakistan military, dictatorship of that kind would have long passed from Pakistan.

masadi: and while you are busy trying to provide a substantive answer (as opposed to gibberish and as opposed to abuse and accusations) to #276, look what another peon of the west said this week: "We share the same values -- democracy, human rights, the functioning of the free market. We are working together jointly for the same goals in the region."

"We" in this case is Turkey and the US, and the speaker is the elected Prime Minister Turkey, Abudullah Gul. Now you go tell the 60 million or so Turks why you are smarter than them and why Gul is a peon of the west. I am sure they will be so impressed they will overthrow the government and appoint you Ataturk II. Except of course, Ataturk was a peon of the west too by your definition.

#273 masadi: you achieved a miracle - you managed to write a post without abuse. It nevertheless remains true to your usual hypocrisy - you start by boldly declaring that everything I wrote is untrue. And then try to back this by writing a load of gibberish that does not even add up to an argument, even a weak one.

SO my questions remain unanswered. Try again.

Zeemax writes "Unless it was with inside involvement"

Read my point on Zardari

Majumdar writes "Are you implying that it is the USA which got rid of BB? But this is being wiser after the event, isn't it? After all prior to BB's assassination you were always insisting that it wud be Mush who wud be got rid off with " a Hellfire shoved up his **** ". But as it is it was not Mush but BB who cud bumped off.

You have to admit, Masadi sahib, that for once you failed in your analysis"


Less than a day after the event I wrote the piece, which became my ilog in which I accuse the US in collusion with the Pakistan Army of getting rid of the BB. That was not "after the event" in that no evidence of anykind had yet come forth and my analysis was based on my understanding of the US/Pakistan Army shenanigans and events preceding that event.

Regarding the Musharraf claim of the US aiming a hellfire for his a$$, that was clearly in the context of him giving up his uniform. If he had not taken it off in private i.e. voluntarily (as I had stated) then the US will strip him in public (via the hellfire). So since he took it off in private the situation for the latter didn't arise. My analysis was spot on, it was not wrong. You and that peon of the West tahmed need to read more carefully...

tahmed writes "There is nothing I wrote in #222 that is factually untrue or unreasonable"

Everything you wrote in 222 is either factually untrue (it does not take God to dominate the Pakistan Army and is unreasonable (comparing India and Turkey to Pakistan when the US indeed does interfere in both of their affairs but because of different histories, different geographies there is variation in that interference. India has just allowed the US in, after keeping clear of it unlike Pakistan and like I have said before, if it were not for them getting their dirty work done through Pakistan, India would have had several US inspired military coups in its short history post partititon as well. The US routinely interferes with the Turkish military to the extent of using it to go against its democratic setup. No country that has military bases in far away foreign lands and dictates its will at the point of the Gun, as the US does can have any claims to be democratic or meaning others well. It is just a spoiled brat of a country that knows nothing of decency or human rights for that matter. Regarding singing the democracy song while subverting it as fact, as it does routinely in Pakistan, only fools the likes of you will take that "song" and make a whole hamd o naat of the objects of your worship around it.

By the way, I did not refer to Sohail as Jabba the Hut, that reference, if you can learn how to read, was in response to Hamid alleging that no woman would like to come within ten feet of me. It was directed at Hamid

tahmed32,

I firmly believe the only thing which can still save Pakistan is the 1973 constitution, in its original form. That Constitution is Pakistan.

#270r responds to fuzair #268

and amen to that ("agree that PM should go").

except that: instead of "apres moi, le deluge" (as every damned dictator claims), let us hope this time it will be "apres musharraf, Pas plus de dictateurs" (after musharraf, no more dictators). and perhaps even "sic semper tyrannis" (with a proper trial that educates would-be general-presidents never again to abuse their official powers to destroy the constitution. and let the military generals realize what the nation is begging them: "Do us a favor: dont do us any more favors".

#260 Posted by fuzair,

Yes I have asked this question before that what happened to the 5,000 strong 'Jaanisaran-e-Benazir' force which Rehman Malik had raised to form a cordon? Many of whom died in the Karachi bomb? None of them could be seen in Liaquat Bagh.

Yes it was a huge security failure from Benazir's own security detail. I still can't figure out how? Unless it was with inside involvement.

Benazir, poor woman, was just carried away with people's emotions, and left her security in others' hands. I suspect she was betrayed.

Tahmed,

Not that I've been following this whole mess minute by minute but the news report seem to clearly indicate that the body was always with the PPP; up to and including the mobs of PPP jiyalas ransacking the hospital when they learnt she was dead.

Come on, what would the PPP's reaction have been if the govt had tried to take control of the body? How many more would have died? The Lal Masjid case is not exactly comparable but it is true that it should never have been allowed to get anywhere close to the level it did.

In any case, I agree that PM should go; he has long negated whatever good he initially may have done and is intent on dragging Pakistan down with him: l'etat c'est moi will soon become apres moi, le deluge.

Yes, it is a sad reflection of the declining capability of the state that it can't even carry out an autopsy on the most important murder victim in Pakistani history in decades.

fuzair #260 It is a stretch (to put it mildly) to say that the body was in PPP hands and the government was helplessly watching from the sidelines. And even if it were true - then a government that is ineffective in carrying out even simple tasks of the state (i.e. securing a dead body for autopsy) is clearly no longer fit to be in power.

And of course this is more of the bs that Musharraf has been rolling out from day one when he claimed that his only interest was in restoring democracy. Example: Look at lal masjid - for months he had maulvis intimidating Islamabad residents, kidnapping and defaming women, acting as law-givers, judges and jury and executive, right under his nose. It was the same excuse then - he was "afraid" of the maulvis. Just like he is "afraid" of PPP (as you now claim). And when the Chinese finally pulled his ears, Musharraf suddenly lost his "fear".

Too many innocent Pakistanis have been killed, too much destruction caused to the integrity of the nation - making a mockery of the legal system with the PCO, the electoral system with the "referendums" and "deals" with maulvis - in order to stoke the ego of one individual. Have some pity on your own countrymen and stop rushing to defend your "fellow fauji".