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US Conspiracy to Destablize Pakistan?

Moeed Pirzada January 18, 2008

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#1 Posted by HP on January 18, 2008 8:54:04 am

Stringent curbs on the Press and media would result in conspiracy theories increase and they would take life of their own. But in some instances, where certain groups feel they have no access to the media, they use whatever medium to spread conspiracy theories.

The Net has become the largest repository of the conspiracy theories as it is easy to print what you want to say. The author uses this same medium w/o actually understanding the factors behind the conspiracy theories!
Read this article which is much more scholarly and talks about Iranian conspiracy theories. (edited version)

Conspiracy theories and
the Persian Mind

By Ahmad Ashraf



Conspiracy theories in Persia are a complex set of beliefs attributing the course of Persian history and politics to the machinations of hostile foreign powers and secret organizations.

In contemporary social psychology such theories are defined as elaborate and internally consistent systems of "collective delusions," often tenaciously held and extremely difficult to refute.

Conspiracy theories often serve an important social function, helping to assuage certain kinds of anxiety among group members but also often limiting or hindering their capacity to respond effectively to external and internal social and political challenges.

Particularly since the beginning of the 20th century, Persians from all walks of life and all ideological orientations have relied on conspiracy theories as a basic mode of understanding politics and history.

The fact that the great powers have in fact intervened covertly in Persian affairs has led ordinary people, political leaders, even the rulers themselves to interpret their history in terms of elaborate and devious conspiracies.

The acceptance of such theories has in itself influenced the course of modern Persian history, for it has engendered a sense of helplessness in dealing with the rumored activities of foreign conspirators.

Conspiracy theories in modern Persia can generally be divided into two categories: those focused on supposed plots by Western colonial powers and those focused on satanic forces believed to have been active against Persia from antiquity to the present.

The Persian elite of the post-Mosaddeq period, one American diplomat noted, belied in the myth of "American omnipotence." Imagining that prime ministers were chosen by the United States, "candidates or would-be candidates for prime minister come to advertise their assets and their availability."

It was widely believed that the shah's White Revolution and the land-reform program of the 1960s had been designed in detail by Americans, though in fact American officials had favored more moderate land reform.

Leftists and many others in the middle class believed that the reforms had been designed to undermine the feudal basis of British interests in Persia. Khomeini, among others, considered land reform part of an American plot to destroy Persian agriculture in order to create a market for surplus American produce and to ensure Persian dependence on food supplies from the United States.

Conspiracy between the shi'ite olama and world powers.

In the 1980s Shoja-al-Din Shafa, a former Persian deputy court minister for cultural affairs, developed another conspiracy theory, based on ideas in the deposed shah's book that a "strange amalgam" -- among the Shi'ite clergy, leftists, Western media, major oil companies, and the British and American governments -- had set out to destroy the rapidly developing nation of Persia.

Shafa suggested that "the emergence of the Shi'ite olama in the 10th century constitutes the greatest conspiracy in Persian history and perhaps the oldest conspiracy in world history." The purpose was to emasculate true Shi'ism by transforming it into the instrument of corrupt Shi'ite leaders.

Three "capital investments" ensured the loyalty of the olama. First, they received financial support from temporal authorities and bazaaris, a "sacred coalition" of the forces of tyranny (estebdad), exploitation (estesmar) and demagoguery (estehmar).

Second, they accepted the "Indian money" and other contributions from Great Britain in the late 19th century. Finally, in the 1970s a gigantic coalition of big oil companies and the intelligence agencies of the United States, Great Britain, the U.S.S.R., and Israel used the olama to mobilize the forces of the Islamic revolution in order to halt the development of Persia and to prevent its impending entry into the "northern club."

Conspiracies of the Freemasons, Bahais and Zionists.

It is commonly believed in Persia that various elite groups are organized in secret lodges of Freemasons under the control of the British, who use them to advance their secret designs to control world affairs.

Groups accused of being under the thumb of the Freemasons include former courtiers, landowners, tribal chiefs, intellectuals, leading olama, wealthy merchants, contractors, influence peddlers, political bosses, and most politicians, including deputies to the Majles and cabinet members.

Belief in a conspiracy among the adherents of the Bahai faith is based on a forged document attributed to Prince Dimitri Dolgorukov (known in Persian as Kinyaz Dalguroki), the Russian minister to Persia in 1846-54.

It purports to a memoir in which the prince described how he created the Babi and Bahai faiths as a way of weakening Shi'ism and Persia as a whole. It was first circulated in Tehran in various forms in the late 1930s and has since been widely cited in Muslim polemics as evidence that the Bahais were controlled first by the Russians and later by the British or the Americans or both.

Those who believe in an international Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world find their proof in the protocols of the Elders of Zion, a document originally forged by the czarist secret police but still widely accepted as authentic in the Middle East.

The Zionist conspiracy is thought to have supported the "despotic" rule of the shah; for example, soldiers who are supposed to have massacred "thousands" of innocent people on Black Friday (8 September 1978) are said to have been Israelis.

Some people have argued that Israel supported the Islamic revolution in order to weaken its only potential rival for domination in the region by replacing the shah with a "vulnerable and dependent Islamic regime."

The popularity of conspiracy theories among Persians arises from a combination of political, social, psychological, and cultural factors: frequent foreign interference during the period of semicolonialism in the early 20th century and great-power politics in the 1940s-80s; the legacy of deeply rooted pre-Islamic and Shi'ite cultural beliefs about satanic forces; and the effectiveness of such theories as a collective defense mechanism, particularly during periods of powerlessness, defeat, and political turmoil.

Certain deep-rooted aspects of the Persian cultural heritage, which seem to have no parallel in other Muslim societies, may also have contributed to the popularity of conspiracy theories. They include a dualistic world view, probably derived from pre-Islamic religious beliefs, in which good and evil powers were considered to be in conflict, with the latter directing the course of history.

The mythological character of traditional Persian historiography, which may reflect a particular receptivity to the mythological mode of thought; a propensity to poetic exaggeration (eghraq-e sha'erana) among the Persians at all social levels; and a long tradition of attributing miraculous deeds to the twelve Shi'ite imams are other probable contributing factors.

Although blaming others can help assuage anxiety about failures, ready acceptance of conspiracy theories has also proved to be highly dysfunctional; in modern Persia it has contributed to political malaise that has sometimes precluded rational responses to internal and external crises.
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#2 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 9:05:13 am
A poorly written article that does not seek to examine the merits of what he calls "conspiracy theory" but tries to discard them all with a broad brush and label of cowards that know no better saying "conspiracy theory". A country like the US who has a long history of meddling in political affairs of others and has a special interest in Pakistani affairs and its military, and the open support it gave to BB in setting up deals with dictators and the luke warm condemnation of the assassination thereafter, not to mention the changing stance of BB all through the affair tells us that things just arent as normal as the author would like us to believe, it is not just business as usual where they are saints and we are evil people and so we find ourselves in this mess. Just look at this stupid comment by the author "Will anyone demand to know who sent the water hoses from ‘Tel Aviv’ to wash the scene of crime in Pindi?"

This is a third rate ignorant comment, suppose the Mossad were involved in the affair they would not leave the bottom down ground work to their field operative they would have some insider do this jamadari. In any case HP main don't give these fools fuel to rubbish every fact as "conspiracy theory" and as I said you should return to the homeland and leave the most miserable place humanity has ever invented as habitat....sincerely,./...
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#3 Posted by nasah on January 18, 2008 9:27:17 am
The biggest destabilizer of Pakistan is neither USA nor Israel nor the lethargic Flash Gordon of 'Great Britain' -- it is a renegade greedy Soldier of Fortune who hijacked the presidency at gunpoint for himself -- has destablized Pakistan for job security -- who has no business being in a place like the the Aiwane Sadr. Sooner he gets out of the place that he never deserved -- the better for the country's stability.
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#4 Posted by fuzair on January 18, 2008 9:32:14 am
I think it was Brad DeLong who paraphrased David Landes as arguing that whether a society or a culture grows rich and successful depends upon how they react to some huge setback a the societal level.

If the response is "Who did this to us?" and look for foreign and domestic scapegoats, then the culture/society is going nowhere fast. If the response is "How can we fix this and make sure it can't happen ever again?" then the culture/society is going to progress and develop.

I'll leave it to the reader to decide which group we fall in.
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#5 Posted by tahir on January 18, 2008 9:55:33 am
Re: # 4

Don't we know each other from somewhere?

Well, after 911 (actually ELEVEN-NINE for the rest of us), America quickly discovered and then concealed the true who-did-it-to-us bit. The confession never came!

Then, instead of biting its own lips, it started this 'war on terror'. America hasn't fixed its own leaking faucet at home and is out to 'fix' our showers!

Who let Pearl Harbour happen? Not us, I'm sure. According to the references you've given, a country that wants others to be 'bombed into stone-age' is itself headed nowhere fast.

Peace.
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#6 Posted by rf786 on January 18, 2008 10:28:57 am
Re: # 3

Changing nameplates will not solve the problem, we need to solve cure the disease and that is military involvement in Pakistan politics.
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#7 Posted by HP on January 18, 2008 10:35:56 am
#5 Posted by tahir
“America quickly discovered and then concealed the true who-did-it-to-us bit. The confession never came!”

I have been following your posts on your own board and enjoying them too.

When we blame people for concocting conspiracy theories, we often forget that some government actions play an important part in that propagation. Like in the case of 9-11. How in the world the US intelligence agencies missed that for almost two years and then knew the culprits in less than 24 hours after the incident! They surely had tabs on the bad guys after the embassy bombing and the Cole incident.

Whenever there is a murder, some people know whodunit. In Pakistan no one finds out about the political murders and that gives plenty of ammo to the common folks to start speculating. That speculation ultimately becomes a conspiracy theory. Like the US is not willing to have a thorough inquiry of 911, Pakistani would never find out who killed Liaquat, Zia and now Benazir.

With so much muck and guess work around the incidents, no one should blame common folks for coming up with conspiracy theory.

Here is CIA trying to save the Pak army’s neck by supporting the a Pakistan government sponsored conspiracy theory that Bait ulah Massod did it. Now the question is: if they knew Bait ullah Mehsod did it only a few hours after the incident, then I am sure they must be keeping tabs on Mehsod’s whereabouts and conversations way before the murder.

This piece of support would spark another round of conspiracy theories in Pakistan.

The CIA has made conclusions w/o doing any investigation on the ground and have provided the lead to the Scotland Yard as to what to say when they finish investigations in Pakistan.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080118/ap_on_go_ot/us_pakistan

WASH INGTON - The CIA has concluded that a Pakistani tribal leader's network was behind the assassination of former Pakistan Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, according to a U.S. intelligence official.
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#8 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 10:50:44 am
nasah writes "it is a renegade greedy Soldier of Fortune who hijacked the presidency at gunpoint for himself "

Here is where you totally lose it. It was not a "greedy" soldier of Fortune, rather it is an institution that has been placed in a position by the regional situation and exploited and strengthened by the US, so that it can usurp power time and again and that is tolerated, nay promoted by the major power broker in the region, the US. Comparing the Brit/US shenanigans in this area to "Flash Gordon" makes your post sound extremely disingenuous and the previous posts quite hypocritical...
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#9 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 10:53:27 am
The ueber mythology around the globe is spread by the US with its city on the hill ideology that is actually a swamp hole atop a shit hole. In this muck infested mythology, some people get to the truth by clearing away the crap. Since the mythology of this swamp hole atop a shit hole is threatened the proponents of it term those efforts at getting past the dung "conspiracy theory". The biggest "conspiracy theory" involves the current mythology under which one state is dictating its will to the others and getting away with it all as being a promoter of democracy.

HP mian you need to return to the homeland...
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#10 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 11:43:58 am
fuzair writes "If the response is "Who did this to us?" and look for foreign and domestic scapegoats, then the culture/society is going nowhere fast."

When you have certain players dominating global institutions and you try to counter that with "personal responsibility", you will get nowhere. Rather understanding the problem's source to try to fix is is not "scapegoating". Only fools wanting to maintain the status quo will term it as such...When good comes out of something, even when not remotely connected to it, the US is always there to claim success, Iraq, libya and the so-called network of AQK are current examples, and when it has caused others to fail by putting them knee deep in shit, as in the case of Pakistan and its military's role in the WOT, not to mention trying to salvage it through the BB, who wouldn't play towards the end, then they say "we had nothing to do with it, these goddamned inferiors just arent mature enough for democracy".....and the rats like tahmed and fuzair help further the role of the US bastards
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#11 Posted by viqarm on January 18, 2008 1:26:37 pm
It is logical that given the current geopolitics, competition for the control of energy resources, and Pakistan's unfortunate location, there is bound to be some foreign interference in Pakistan's affairs. The main reason it gets bloated to full blown conspiracy theories is the Pak govt's own unwillingness, or inability, to provide full/credible information and to maintain transparency. Laughable explanations such as BB died due to hitting her head against the hook on the sunroof is a prime example of what I am talking about.

Whether or not there are external conspiracies to destabilize Pakistan is immaterial. The real question is: do the govt. and the people of Pakistan passively allow such interference to occur and then endlessly complain about it, like a bunch of impotents?
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#12 Posted by fuzair on January 18, 2008 1:53:36 pm
Tahir Sahib,

I was thinking more of our predilection for always blaming someone else but the US fits here very nicely. After 9-11, the US certainly didn't ask itself why are there thousands of nutjob jihadis running around? Did our support of the Saudi Wahabis and Afghan Mujahideen cause this disaster?

In other posts I've criticized the US and our Afghan policy in the 1980s. And we are the only ones really paying the price for this mistaken policy but virtually the entire country, barring a few unreformed Commies, supported the Afghani Jihad at first. Some of us grew to truly hate the Afghan barbarians infesting our land but we still refused to acknowledge the fact that the Communist government was, initially at least, the best govt that Afghanistan had ever had.
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#13 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 3:42:37 pm
viqarm writes "The real question is: do the govt. and the people of Pakistan passively allow such interference to occur and then endlessly complain about it, like a bunch of impotents? "

Reminds me of the BS US democracy talk. Taking the blame away from the power brokers, the real culprits and placing it where it least belongs, the people of Pakistan. When throughout its history, except for the brief period under ZAB (may Allah bless the good he did)the people of Pakistan were out of design kept out of the political process and all avenues for them to express their political will were methodically shut down by the Pakistan Army. Regarding the government, by which any damn fool knows if they know anything that the real governance of Pakistan on behalf of America is done by the Pakistan Army- when the entire livelihood of this bunch of leeches is based on maintaing this status quo why will they challenge it....Get a grip on the facts fool, the blame lies least of all with the people and most of all with the neo-colonial shaitan, the US elite.
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#14 Posted by nasah on January 18, 2008 5:24:31 pm
The Pakistanis are destabilizing their own country -- at this stage of the game not the Americans.

Americans did not kill Benazir -- that is a cockamamie story -- American agent Musharraf did not kill Benazir either -- Musharraf's agents did.

The Americans can be accused of looking the other way for their agent's repeated misdeeds -- as Musharraf must be accused of looking the other way at his agent's dastardly destabilizing deeds that includes the assassination of Benazir -- Scotland Yard or no Scotland Yard.

No wonder they were the "foreign experts" who were invited to investigate the hosed out scene of crime -- with their preordained conclusions towing the party line.
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#15 Posted by Kulharee on January 18, 2008 5:47:06 pm
Masadi, why do you act like such an idiot? She was married to him because that’s how the system of arranged marriages work (thank your culture and religion for that), and she never undid any of her dad’s nonsense. She in fact kept the stupid believing in the Last polygamist prophet to be considered a Muslim. I don’t know what crap you talk about. You should just get lost.
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#16 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 6:04:13 pm
Nasah writes "The Pakistanis are destabilizing their own country -- at this stage of the game not the Americans. "

And you say this in the same paragraph in which you say Musharraf is an "agent of the Americans". There is absolutely nothing "cockamamie" in American involvement with the BB murder, even if we ignore their history of politically motivated assassinations, they were in on it from the very start, they gave guarantees to the BB and she had complete confidence in those guarantees alone but they happened to be fake guarantees. The Pak Army would do nothing to get on the bad side of its masters, the US elite, it takes only one phonecall to get them back in line, that the US told them to do as they please in this case after BB wouldn't play is obvious as daylight. Get your thinking cap on or you'll sound just like Kulharee does here every weekend, as a drunk bum who lets forth multiple insults and curses against my posts without making a dime worth of sense...

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#17 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 6:13:56 pm
By the way Kulharee I know you are dead drunk as you are every Friday on chowk, it is quite apparent by your posts, but that is the pathetic escape living in the swamp hole (USA) necessitates for you to carry on your miserable life, at least reply on the correct thread, my BB post you are replying to was made on the Darlymple thread, you are lost in another one....I pity you fool, return to the homeland and leave Dumbo here if she is preventing you from rescuing your wasted life...
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#18 Posted by Goldfinger on January 18, 2008 6:17:03 pm
Re: # 13Masadi, previously I could not respond to your posts since I was pre-occupied somewhere else. I just wanted to tell you that your idolatrous infatuation with ZAB is very well if you wish to continue to be infatuated by a nightmare, but you do so at your own peril, because no leader in the checkered history of this unfortunate nation deserves such adulation, least of all a corrupt, hypocritical megalomaniac. ZAB helped split the country, which caused a civil war in the eastern wing in which thousands brutally perished. He said that he believed in democracy, yet when he lost elections, he refused to concede defeat. He preached socialism and roti, kapra aur makan to everyone to instigate civil unrest to grab power, yet refused to shun his personal feudal/wadera life style, and at public expense built palaces worth millions of dollars to live in, bought a private jet also at public expense, as well as being the first of our high and mighty leaders to commandeer PIA airliners for himself and his cronies to jet set the world in, wore designer people’s suits, conspired and murdered political foes, brought religion into politics for personal gratification while being hugely inebriated by the intoxication of alcoholic beverages, massively rigged elections to have himself re-elected, and ultimately like a dunce drove himself right into the gallows. How sad and pathetic to deliver nothing for all the love and support the people bestowed on him, whom no doubt he had roused by his rhetoric jugglery.
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#19 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 6:28:05 pm
Goldfinger writes "I just wanted to tell you that your idolatrous infatuation with ZAB is very well if you wish to continue to be infatuated by a nightmare"

I have replied to your nonsense before. There is absolutely no infatuation nor any idolatory involved. The single thing that I admire about ZAB was the political context from which he arose, which he challenged and then infused self worth into people that since the time of MAJ in Pakistan (and before by the colonials) had been treated like cattle and pigs. That itself is paramount achievement, but a man is capable of it so there no idolatory in admiring that. Regarding your criticism of ZAB those are all ad hominem arguments that regardless of what truth might be in them or not don't take a dime away from the above mentioned achievements of the man, many of them are borrowed from the Mullah's perverted morality. ZAB had nothing to do with breaking up the country, your perverted sense of where the power belonged at the time forces you to state that. The two parts were setup for division from the very start, ZABs efforts saved what you today know as Pakistan rather than losing both because of the doings of the Pakistan Army and Pakistan Army alone.
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#20 Posted by arjun_4 on January 18, 2008 6:35:03 pm
#9 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 10:53:27 am


is spread by the US with its city on the hill


That's shining city on the hill for you, Mr gets-his-paycheck-from-the-puppet-paki-government.
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#21 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 6:44:06 pm
arjun "Mr gets-his-paycheck-from-the-puppet-paki-government"

I do not work for that government funded institution anymore, where my paycheck had absolutely nothing to do with the government funds, the chaprasee wages I made were more than covered by one and a half student's fees (out of 300 or so)
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#22 Posted by Ras on January 18, 2008 7:44:45 pm


El Faida did it!
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#23 Posted by viqarm on January 18, 2008 10:01:03 pm
Re: # 13
"Get a grip on the facts fool, the blame lies least of all with the people and most of all with the neo-colonial shaitan, the US elite".

God!!! I guess your favorite crowd is not posting much today :-).

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#24 Posted by Zeena on January 18, 2008 10:29:30 pm
Writer sahib
Well, when someone lost everything at the brink of a second, then obviously that person has every right to assume or to suspect for the real culprits....

Lets take an example of you here, if, by any chance any of your family memeber ets assassinated or your own home gets in to fire or someone bomb your house or you? What would be your reaction?

Yes, you'll have all these conspiracy theories...And yes, conspiracy theories are the main ointment for the victims and yes I'll call such theories as blessings for those who are left behind with nothing at all.

If our beloved country Pakistan is burning in fire currently then we as Pakistani citizens have every right to speculate all such conspiracy theories.....and trust me we're always right......

Yes, BB got assassinated by some international org. with the help of President Musharaf and that's the sad reality......
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#25 Posted by pavocavalry on January 18, 2008 10:57:04 pm
the usa has a strategic interest in pakistan and knows that paki military junta cannot survive without us help.

however their prime concern is the freedom of manoeuvre with which many anti united states groups are operating in pakistan.thus benazir was seen as a good choice to deliver the goods.now that she is no more , the usa has many other excellent candidates waiting in line.

traditionally the army particularly the punjabi troops who constitute about 65 % as well as the pashtuns from settled areas like yusufzais and khattaks have traditionally been good mercenaries , particularly the punjabi troops even fired on the kaba and were staunchly loyal in 1857 , in first and second world war.

the united states needs not conspire but it has certain strategic aims although there is the friction of factors beyond USAs control.

for anyone interested in US conspiracies " DOCUMENTS FROM THE US ESPIONAGE SPYDEN" printed by Islamic Republic of Iran in 1979 are an interesting reading.

The USA needs not conspire but it certainly has a military strategic agenda for the region specially Pakistan.Its occupation of Afghanistan is one of the phases in this.

In miitary strategy there is a concept of centre of gravity and pakistan certainly is the centre of gravity of islamists of a certain breed.the usa wants to knock this centre of gravity out.

the usa in any case knows that paki generals as well as paki politicians cannot survive without us help.
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#26 Posted by Ladgasht on January 18, 2008 11:04:32 pm
This character is an apologist for USA.

His style is that of a US covert Psy Warfare paid operative trained in psy warfare in Fort Hood and Fort Sill USA.

Very mediocre article.
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#27 Posted by zeemax on January 18, 2008 11:42:04 pm
... and then the Washington Post interview of the CIA Chief Hayden yesterday who states unequivocally "Baitullah Mehsud and Al-Qaeda did it". Didn't present any evidence though, and just said what Musharraf said within hours of the assassination.

According to Kasuri, the Pakistan ex-FM, he was asked to say this by Pakistanis. Analysts like Gen Asad Durrani say it is merely to bail out Musharraf from public accusations of Govt involvement.

But I think otherwise. I think it is a pre-cursor to actual US ground troops involvement in Pakistan Tribal Region at Pakistan's request.

Would be great to have Pavo's opinion.
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#28 Posted by FakirIppi on January 18, 2008 11:58:12 pm
Re: # 27 Zee , pavo is not here but I am reproducing his article published in Frontier Post Peshawar,The Post Lahore below.

5 Minutes over Islamabad

A.H Amin

August 2007

There appears to be a strong evolving consensus in the USA as well as its NATO allies that Pakistan is the centre of gravity of the Islamists in the ongoing so called war on terror. This idea gained currency in various high US policy making circles as well as think tanks around 1987-89 and then assumed a solid shape in the decade 1990-2000. After 2001 it was adopted as a policy and concrete albeit top secret planning was started to deal with Pakistan which at the ulterior level was seen as part of the problem rather than a solution.

When the Spaniards landed in Mexico their main collaborators were indigenous Mexicans themselves. In Pakistan, the USA made use of indigenous collaborators: Generals whose sons had a US passport; bankers who were US nationals but also dual Pakistani citizens. These leaders justified collaboration with the USA after 9/11 on the grounds that what they did was the only guarantee for the survival of Pakistan!

The Pakistani military junta in 2001 was isolated internationally so it was very easy for the USA to overawe it with one telephone call. The life of a career army officer revolves around getting a good annual report from his superiors. The Generals are no exception. Pakistan's military leadership grasped at the opportunity to get a 'pat at the back' from their geopolitical strategic boss - the US President - and eagerly provided airbases and all logistic support to the USA. This was a short term measure and Pakistani military junta had a sigh of relief as it's survival in power was ensured. It had no connection with survival of Pakistan as a state. Compare how Iran is surviving as a state despite defying the USA since 1979. Later, the fiction that USA threatened Pakistan with bombing it to the Stone Age was invented. The weak-kneed irresolution was rationalized as supreme strategic brilliance. Some 'media men' who are also running private businesses were in the forefront praising strategic timidity as strategic brilliance.

In "Real Strategic Terms" what happened was that Pakistani military junta's collaborated (providing logistic support and air bases) with the USA to enable it to occupy Afghanistan with little cost in men and material. This was no mean strategic achievement as it placed the USA right below the soft underbelly of China as well as Russia. More significantly, it reduced the flying time to strike Pakistani nuclear as well as missile installations. Close proximity to Pakistan also enabled the USA to obtain intelligence and conduct covert operations inside Pakistan far more effectively than ever before.

It was theorized in secret sessions of the highest level in US decision making circles that although the Islamists fighting the USA had no fixed centre of gravity which could be attacked and eliminated, Pakistan with its sympathetic pro Islamist populace and nuclear and missile assets was at least a provisional centre of gravity of the Islamists. It may be noted that the US feared, not the ISI, not the tin-pot Pakistani military junta, but the sentiments of the bulk of the Pakistani populace and its arsenal of nuclear warheads and missiles.

The occupation of Afghanistan was seen as a potential US base to carry out a raid in '5 minutes over Islamabad' like the Israelis did with US cooperation to destroy Iraq's nuclear reactor in 5 minutes over Baghdad in 1981.

In 1945, the USA had bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki not for any direct military purpose but to overawe the USSR that no one could match the US military might. The USSR responded to the challenge and developed a massive nuclear arsenal to counter US aspirations to control the world. Later, China also emerged as another challenger to US ambition to control the resources of the world. Thanks to the help by USSR, many Asian countries and African countries fought and won wars of liberation. The Arabs were able to confront Israel only because of the Soviet aid, until the collaborator Anwar Sadaat sold his soul to the USA and Israel!

The USA was all set to 'cut Pakistan to size' in 1977 when it financed the anti Bhutto agitation in 1977. The role of the military under General Zia ul Haq would have been no different to that of Musharraf but for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan from 1979 till 1989. The emergence of effective resistance in Afghanistan and Pakistan's willingness to support was too good an opportunity to miss. USA had to put its plan to destabilise Pakistan on hold as it had no option other than using Pakistan's help and its bases for assisting the anti Soviet War in Afghanistan.

Change of posture came very quickly. In the 1990s, after the Soviet troops had withdrawn, the USA started demonising Pakistan as a terrorist state presenting the liberation struggle in Jammu and Kashmir as 'terrorism'. It was basically a war of nerves the decisive point of which was one telephone call which made Pakistan's tin pot military junta take the so called "brilliant strategic decision" of collaborating with the USA.

After the disintegration of the USSR, strategically speaking, the military targets of the USA were the littoral states of the Indian Ocean. The Iraq War of 1990, the invasion of capture of Afghanistan in 2001, the invasion and capture of Iraq in 2003, all have the same aim - domination of the Indian Ocean region. Interestingly, Iraq and Afghanistan were not ultimate objectives; they are merely convenient bridge-heads from which to launch further operations. This was only Phase One; Phase Two may be Pakistan, and Phase Three may be Iran. Phase Four may well be Chinese Xinxiang and/or Central Asian Republics. The American advance is sometimes called Orange Revolution of Ukraine. But its first good example was the anti Bhutto agitation that they financed in 1977 in Pakistan. Now they call it a 'war on terror' or war against weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

History has shown that generals fail as statesmen. In 1936, all of Hitler's generals opposed his decision to march into Rhineland. This is because the generals think in terms of gaining and holding territory. They do not appreciate the value of intangible factors like resolute determination. After 9/11, when Pakistan's tin pot junta war-gamed invasion by the USA, it thought only in military terms - losses vs gains. It failed to appreciate that the USA had been humbled in war in Vietnam and also in a war of nerves - sort of diplomatic contest - with Iran in 1979. They facilitated the destruction and occupation of Afghanistan by the USA unmindful of the fact that low cost of victory would encourage further invasion. Pakistan shall pay a heavy price for this. Whether Mr Armitage said so or not, the USA will bomb some parts of Pakistan to the stone age in order to denuclearize Pakistan.

Pakistan is in a strange strategic situation. It is led by a military dictator whose sole aim is to stay in power. His number two - the so called prime minister - is a US citizen. In the case the President dies naturally or unnaturally his successor - the Chairman Senate - would also be a US citizen. Politically, the USA is the real rulers of Pakistan already. But the Americans are still not happy. Their aim is denuclearization and complete submission of Pakistan.

Imagine the following scenario! Pakistan's military dictator is killed in a mysterious air crash or is assassinated by soldier on duty like Prime Minister Indira Gandhi of India. The USA immediately issues an ultimatum that it fears that Pakistan's nuclear arsenal may fall in the hands of extremists. A surgical nuclear strike is launched on Kahuta and Islamabad. Another general takes over power in Pakistan and capitulates to all US demands dismantling the Pakistani nuclear arsenal and its missiles rationalising this on the ground that if he did not do so the USA would bomb Pakistan to Stone Age. In the following ten years Pakistan is balkanised with an independent US supported Baluchistan and an independent puppet Pashtun state in NWFP and Northern Pashtun majority districts of Baluchistan. An independent Sindh in the South, an independent Kashmir and Northern Areas with US bases for future operations against Xinxiang from the Deosai Plateau. It is only the Punjab which is left as Pakistan. No nukes, no missiles, no resolve! Just like defeat of the Muslims in Granada that led to their genocide in Spain and finally even Granada was eliminated in 1492.

This is not pessimism; this is hard strategic reality. The writing is clear on the wall. The war which USA is fighting is not against the Pashtun tribes of Waziristan but against all Muslims. Bagram, Khost, Jalalabad and Kandahar airfields are being developed not against the Taliban or against the Al Qaeda but for 5 minutes over Islamabad!

In strategy, things moves very slowly and it is the greatness of a statesman and military commander to assess what will happen in next 5 or ten years. Here in Pakistan we have a situation where our military leaders are overawed by just one phone call. From leaders of such a calibre one cannot expect resolute determination or strategic insight.

From 1979 to 1988, Pakistan's military junta, after seizing power through the backdoor, provided the USA with an active base to destabilize and destroy Afghanistan's de facto government. All infrastructure of Afghanistan was destroyed as well as all its institutions between 1979 and 1992. Now if the Afghan state allows the USA to do so to Pakistan, it should not be a surprise. Why did Pakistan's military junta of 1977-88 support the so called Afghan Jihad? It was to enable General Zia stay in power. The characters were different, but the motivation was the same in 2001 as in 1979.

The scenario may be disbelieved by sceptics. However, if history be the guide, there is no room for doubt or complacency. If Saddam Hussain - the principal CIA asset in the Middle East - could be killed and his country destroyed on the mere suspicion that Iraq possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction why is Pakistan not a perfectly legitimate target for the USA? It is a Muslim country and it does possess the WMD without any doubt! Saddam was more secular than any Muslim leader in modern history yet his country and he himself were targeted and destroyed! What is the aim of this so called 'enlightened Islam' espoused by Musharraf? It is supposed to act as anaesthesia for the USA and also destroy all the resistance power of the Pakistani nation! If not strategic brilliance at least we have good anaesthetists at the top! In war, surprise is the key. The US will not politely announce its intentions before it raids Pakistan. It could find any number of excuses provided by inevitable destabilisation that always results from ousting dictators. Musharraf, Benazir and any other general who may emerge as the leader are merely pawns in the game. They can be removed by air crashes or assassinations. Waziristan, Al Qaeda and terrorism are mere slogans. The Pakistan Army is being forced into Waziristan by the USA not to attack the Al Qaeda but to create an internal divide in Pakistan.

There have been many cases of desertion of soldiers in units in Waziristan as well as cases of refusal of officers for carrying out duties against their conscience. What kind of 'enlightened moderation' prescribed by Musharraf would ward of the dangers when the enemy is not merely at the gates and even inside the Pakistani citadel of power? What can be expected from leaders whose sons are US citizens or who consider USA safer for their families to live than Pakistan? What can be expected from US citizens now enjoying high political office in Pakistan after having a good time in Bank of America or CITI Bank? What respect will the army jawan have for leaders more distinguished for deciding not to fight a battle after one telephone call; who are more interested in privatizing the PSO, PTCL or the Steel Mill?

Five Minutes over Islamabad is not a just a nightmare scenario; it is a distinct possibility! Is this not ironical that a nation that provided so many pilots to their blood brothers in Syria, Iraq, and Jordan, who downed many Israeli aircrafts over the Golan, over Amman and in Iraq, should be so irresolute and afraid? Today the Pakistani leaders are sycophantically courting Israel. Why? When a country has leaders who want to save their chair or their skin but not their country; whose rest pad is in the USA; the whole nation is afraid.

Pakistan today is led by collaborators who will go to any extent to continue in power. The nuclear and military assets of the country are in peril because of them. They have actively cooperated with the enemy, deceived and lied to the people. Submission and surrender is the hallmarks of our leaders who portray their timid strategic collaboration as 'strategic brilliance'. A secret clause of 'Vision 2030' propaganda of Pakistan's present leadership is that by 2030 Pakistan would be a Balkanised state with no nuclear and missile assets and kicked by all its neighbours. Good luck to vision 2030!
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#29 Posted by FakirIppi on January 19, 2008 12:00:09 am
Pirzada true to his intellectual level lacks depth as well as conviction.Typical so called liberal.Good job . As clear as mud and real assorted nonsense.
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#30 Posted by zeemax on January 19, 2008 1:36:39 am
#25 Posted by pavocavalry,

In miitary strategy there is a concept of centre of gravity

Yes. It is significant that the centre of gravity has now been shifted from Afghanistan to Pakistan. Quite predictable what's next.
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#31 Posted by zeemax on January 19, 2008 1:37:28 am
#28 Posted by FakirIppi,

Thanks FakrIppi Saheb.
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#32 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 3:33:22 am
the price of atta


.... my grandma (god bless her soul) used to say that during the british raj atta was a rupee a maund and there was plenty of it ..... there was rule of the white man's law and god stayed in heaven minding his own business ..... there were no jihadis, suicide bombers, cattle thieves or crooked politicians ........ during the ghadar of 1857 there was some trouble in meerut and delhi, but the sahib took care of business and promptly strung up the trouble makers from the nearest lamp post ...... life was good for abdul and my grandma ....... it was a mistake to end the raj ........

..... i, for one, would be happy if the us took over the the reins of pakistan for a couple of decades until we are ready to mind our own affairs ...... the white man must bear his burden .......
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#33 Posted by blithe on January 19, 2008 3:57:40 am

It is a bit lame to be coming up with these conspiracy theories... Note that the journalists coming up with these theories are the most pro-government and spineless individuals, eg. Ahmad Qureshi.

Our problem lies with our internal checks and balances (or lack thereof). If you want to dismantle the judiciary, terrorize the press, install Musharaf's covering candidate (soomoro) and other Q leaguers in the so called "neutral' caretaker government , then you have NO right to float 'international" conspiracy theories.

As the Radiohead song goes: "You do it to yourself, and that is what really hurts."

Yes, Paksitan with a dictator is most vulnerable to outside influence (because Musharraf lacks internal electoral credibility)... BUT as civil society we have to address the real issue, i.e. we have to insist on independence of institutions. You have to differentiate the core disease from the symptoms.

The best thing that Pakitan can do at this stage is to sentence Musharraf for desecrating the constitution. I know it is far fetched at this stage (because Musharraf has given a great blow to the independence of the judiciary)... but he must be brought to book by Pakistanis for his crimes and lies against Pakistan (I do not think he should ever be given a safe passage to Turkey).


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#34 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 4:35:38 am
the bum of islam

... can someone remind me about what is it that pakistan has that america wants so badly ? .... we don't have oil or gold; even our human resources are pretty pathetic as represented by the sample we have on chowk ..... and inspite of masadi's paranoia, i doubt it very much that the us would attack pakistan to get rid of him when they have crazy kooks like ward churchill running loose in their own country ...... so what is it?........ we don't have atta, cheeni, gas or electricity ? ....cotton? .... now it seems that we have a problem there as well ........ so what the heck is it ?

........wait a minute ! ........ it must be the atom bum ! ....... the very same bum that i celebrated with a big bum party and invited my smug neighbor dr gupta and his head-wagging wife ..... look guys, like all pakis i was petrified by the two weeks of deafening silence that followed the bhaji blast by the vegetarians and was absolutely delighted when we finally tested the bum to protect us from the heen-eating horrible hindoos ........

.......... but that was then, when i feared the hindoos more than the muslims who want to blow up the world ..... now, like all other reasonable people, i too am worried that al-lah's dark forces will somehow get their dirty paws on our precious bum and do something nasty ...... based on the recent performance of the pakistani army i am not sure they can protect our bum ........ so let's give it up to the americans who can protect us from ourselves .......let's give up our bum to save our bum
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#35 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 4:46:26 am
Re: # 32 hamimd

Well, I am not sure.. looking at what whiteman has done to economy of the US of A in last 8 years, I am not too optimistic on the whiteman's abilities...

Time for a black man or a white woman... :)
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#36 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 4:51:55 am
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#37 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 5:15:08 am
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#38 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 5:18:32 am
you know why you are always in trouble one way or the other - one word - delusion.... you always pretend to be what you are not...

Examples: you pakis try to be more bedouin than bedouins... you are half hinud but try to be more muslim than king saud... you are dark and puny in stature but pretend to be white and big... you are pygmies intellectually, but pretend to be great scholars spouting same old nonsense day in and day out...

Most importantly - you are generally s!ssies but you pretend to be great warriors... you guys have always been the supplicants and surrender monkeys throughout thousand years in history, you have bent over for any smelly barbarian has managed to cross the mountains... or these days, whoever manages to make a phone call at the dead of the night...

This one delusion has cost you lot... you have tried to punch above your weight, fought unnecessarily with bad hinuds on the neighborhood, lost half the country... you even went ahead and stole yourself a bum, you thought somehow the bum will make you what you are not... that was the ultimate delusion... the bum could never make a dal-eating paki into a great warrior...

Now - you have run out of atta and dal... see what you done to yourselves?...
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#39 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 5:23:58 am
Re: # 38

mohar mian,

based on your response i take back my last post and am glad that we have the bum ....... as a matter of fact i think we should use it on a day the wind is blowing in the right direction !
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#40 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 5:24:13 am
#21 Posted by masadi on January 18, 2008 6:44:06 pm


I do not work for that government funded institution anymore


you couldn't even keep your job in a PAKI university...I mean, come on!!! the bar was really really low and you failed!!
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#41 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 5:24:55 am
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#42 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 5:29:15 am
Re: # 41

fool! ......... it is not sea biscuit, it is 'buraq'
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#43 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 5:30:34 am
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#44 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 5:34:26 am
what do they say in hindi: langda chale hansa ka chal...
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#45 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 5:36:33 am
Re: # 43

mohar mian,

..... there are no 'good' pakis when it comes to dealing with horrible hindoos ....... grandpa gopinath might have made a mistake, but the process of circumcision is irreversible ........
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#46 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 19, 2008 5:43:56 am
Re: # 25 America is not only friend we have. China is most important friend and brother we have and all citizens love china. Generals can count on China.Pakistan is very important to china, it controls India and keeps India down with Pakistani friendship.
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#47 Posted by ijaz_gul on January 19, 2008 5:50:23 am
King of spins!
Fuzair,
Were you in Pakistan when the nation unified after the earthquake? Plz dont bombast theories
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#48 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 6:00:59 am
Re: # 45hamidm

I know... when zeemax runs after you with his pocket guillotine, remember who to run to... :)
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#49 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 6:02:16 am
Re: # 46 madni

Yep - run from one sugar daddy to another.... :)
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#50 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 6:22:30 am
FakirIppi #: "Generals whose sons had a US passport; bankers who were US nationals but also dual Pakistani citizens...."

...interesting article....i believe it is not possible to be a dual national, if one has a US citizenship.....So the Prime Minister (SA) and Chairman Senate etc. cannot be dual nationals.....

.in addition, one cannot become the PM or Chairman Senate of Pakistan, without being a Pakistani national.....hence more than likely, these, "bankers" carry a Pakistani passport with a US green card........
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#51 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 6:34:16 am
hamidm2 #: "........wait a minute ! ........ it must be the atom bum ! ....... the very same bum that i celebrated with a big bum party and invited my smug neighbor dr gupta..."

yes...it would have to be the bum......though, i don't think the usa had much concern about it, until it got itself sucked into the whole middle east conflict, a few decades ago......now america is caught in a war, where it is fully supporting israel, with the muslims supporting palestine.....

i am still waiting for a us president, who has the guts to slap the silly israeli leaders into the real world, and tell him that israel is not going beyond the 67 borders....and then form a palestine state.......

the whole world has agreed to this; only usa, marshall islands, tuvalu, micronesia and usa vote in favor of israel......

after which, usa can buy oil, cheap, from arabs and arabs can buy ipods at high prices from the usa......and pakistanis can fo back to fighting indians and live happily ever after......instead of worrying about liberating palestine or afghanistan or iraq......

i have never seen a country than give $1000/year per person of aid to another, and yet this aid-taking country is able to dictate terms to the aid-giving country.......talk about the tail wagging the dog......

p.s. i'll take care of micronesia and marshall islands, if you can take care of usa (i belive tuvalu is about to disappear as an island, due to the rising tide)....

..otherwise, i am afraid, we are all headed for a catastrophe......
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#52 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 6:48:30 am
Re: # 50

romair mian,

.... you are clueless as usual - the us does not have any restrictions against dual citizenship .......

.... in any case, like i said before, the us cannot afford to trust the muslims - nobody can ..... israel is a shining beacon in that wasteland known as the middle east and hopefully, inshallah, kurdistan will be the next one .....
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#53 Posted by shankar on January 19, 2008 7:16:41 am
Has anybody considered what could happen to Pakistan if they told the US to f off?! "Bombing into the stone age" is only a last option.

-the US could cut off all aid (1 billion a yr is a huge chunk of change,esp if most of it goes to the military).

-the US could impose a trade embargo. Iran & Saddam can afford an embargo because they have oil revenues. Pakistan doesn't.

-the US could ally themselves with India. India is one of the few countries in the world , opinion polls show, that likes the US.
That would only worsen the sense of insecurity vis a vis India, that is pounded into every Pakistani.

You guys can wring your hands & lament why the US is a bad friend to have. But the US as an enemy will be 10 times worse.

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#54 Posted by Kulharee on January 19, 2008 7:16:48 am
RE # 17 Masadi, your BS is so consistent and analogous no matter in which board you write. It’s like if you have read you once, you have read you all. You are the biggest insipid joker on this website.
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#55 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 7:24:16 am
Re: # 53

shankar mian,

......... a whore does not have any friends - good or bad
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#56 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 7:42:35 am
shankar #: "You guys can wring your hands & lament why the US is a bad friend to have. But the US as an enemy will be 10 times worse."

the usa could do the same to india also.....the indian IT industry would crash if the usa stopped giving contracts to india.......as would various other industries in india.....it can also bomb india into the stone age.....it can do so to most countries.....

.......all the aid pakistan has taken from other countries has resulted in nothing but a huge national debt.....

anyways, no one is saying that pakistan should become an enemy of usa.....far from it......i am just saying that pakistan should neither be friends nor enemies with the us govt......the dealings should just be between businesses.....

the irani and saudi options are both detrimental to pakistan's future........

actually india has taken on the correct policy vis-a-vis usa (and israel and palestine).....
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#57 Posted by Eklavya on January 19, 2008 8:32:18 am
"the us cannot afford to trust the muslims"

hamidm sahib, let's not put it that way. What is clear as daylight is that the era of trusting others is totally over. Trust was a temporarly liberal delusion hatched in Europe until they learnt about the real world.
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#58 Posted by tahir on January 19, 2008 8:42:46 am
Re: # 7

Hewlett Packard, you said:

Now the question is: if they knew Bait ullah Mehsod did it only a few hours after the incident, then I am sure they must be keeping tabs on Mehsod’s whereabouts and conversations way before the murder.

I say:

You've brilliantly answered the question yourself. Congrats!

Where is OBL? Nowhere I guess. BB told David Frost that 'OBL was murdered'. Baitullah is the new enemey now.

If I cried and you lent me some tissue paper (Kleenex, for the US-settled), you'd be marked as a sympathiser too, with consequences of course!

News, or rather propaganda, is intentionally leaked out to the esteemed (!?) leaders of the print media. I only read Between-The-Lines-Times published by umm...umm...aaa...arrr...

Cocaine Cola, enjoy!

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#59 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 9:28:05 am
hamid writes ".... my grandma (god bless her soul) used to say that during the british raj atta was a rupee a maund and there was plenty of it ..... there was rule of the white man's law and god stayed in heaven minding his own business "

It seems to run in the family. Your grandma was just as idiotic as you are. Did you forget about the man made famines by the British that killed millions. Further, have you forgotten how they pushed back India by a century and treating the "coloreds" as unequal vermin the effects of which we face today. And they did all this to keep the price of wheat stable? You hamid have a slave mentality and are a son of slaves the kind that are happy in their enslavement.

One thing I will give you, atleast you are upfront about these feelings of worship you have about the white man. Tahmed on the other hand has even more intense feelings than you about the superiority of the white man and his shit but he masks that in his fake "care for the Pakistani people". May God damn both of you, him a little more than you because he is a snake and a back stabbing hypocrite.

Kulharee: I see you are all sobered up now, last night you werent able to put a sentence together and were lost between threads, then you have the audacity of talking about my posts, the ones you cannot even touch based on your dimwitted intellect...
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#60 Posted by Pardesi on January 19, 2008 9:47:35 am
Can Pakistan afford to say f-off to USA?

Yes, USA will love to leave her, or any one else, alone if Pakistanis:

- dont provide training facilities to potential Jihadis
- clear sanctuaries for troublemakers (e.g., wazirstan, “moral and diplomatic support”)
- protect their bums and do not sell it to other states. In other words, be responsible.

Until then, Pakistan will be either on short leash or an enemy state. Nothing in between.
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#61 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 9:52:24 am
#56 Posted by bulleya on January 19, 2008 7:42:35 am


the usa could do the same to india also


The USA could do the same to britain too..or france..or italy..alabama too..

but it is going to?

nope...

it's just pakis who're going to be threatened by a bombing-into-the-stone-age phone call to bomb and kill their own people...
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#62 Posted by arjun_4 on January 19, 2008 9:54:49 am
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#63 Posted by anil on January 19, 2008 10:28:08 am
Re: # 59

Massaddi Mian:

"...Your grandma was just as idiotic as you are..."

You shamelessly cross limits. It is sad and pathetic.
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#64 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 10:43:32 am
anil writes "You shamelessly cross limits. It is sad and pathetic"

Anil you need to think before you blurt out absurdities. The guy is condemning millions to slavery and justifying the butchering of millions of Iraqis, not to mention what the US has done particularly since the early 1980s to Pakistan that involves hundreds of millions of people, and the fool is justifying all of that using his grandma. So if I call her idiotic how does it compare to what he is justifying above, and so what if I call her idiotic. I know you are not in the habit of thinking but think hard about it
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#65 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 19, 2008 11:00:04 am
Re: # 63 Anil ... Tehmad and Hamid are doing all this purposely to provoke. Its not innocent way but deliberate and wrong. It is same as some people use to use Gandhi and jinna to provoke YLH and then just just enjoy mud sliding. Many mortals are here just for "fun".
I suggest masadi also to just ignore provocative write up which advocates slavery and other advocates drinking alcohol and be happy. We can not fathom what enjoy in glory of slave mentality and glory of alcohol. He knows alcohol is bad still he advocates alcohol as relaxation and refreshment for for soul and shaitan has enterd their minds. So best is leave them and let them think and pray and heavely forces will mend them but I do not have big hope , both are old and they say all this going in their mind is just repentance for their misspent youthful days and mature days and now just they are getting old and restless souls and poor lost and worried about future retirement where usa elites do not give damn to old people and they treat as just useless old folks. I will let them be happy in their second child hood and silly ways.
I wish good luck for both of them. In usa once you cross 45 you have no value , it is sad situation there and depression is driving crazy many people in usa, uk, japan and west europe.
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#66 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 11:25:48 am
Note part of my post made on the Dalrymple thread on Jan 12
http://chowk.com/interacts/13401/1/0/224#355946

#83 Posted by masadi on January 12, 2008 1:14:16 pm
Regarding US involvement in the BB case, it is no stretch of the imagination to note that the US has always supported the military and the dictators it throws up in Pakistan. In fact so close is the relationship that Pakistan Army, totally alien to the Pakistanis, is a foreign occupation force doing the bidding of the US to the extreme deteriment of Pakistan. The the "deal" involving the dominant and lesser institutions, the military and the political would enhance the status quo (strengthen the dominant institution) and not "democracy" should be no surprise to any thinking person, that is why the US was pushing for the "deal", first and foremost to salvage the uniform and military from Musharraf, which was achieved after much bloodletting and lathi charge and emergency, and later to pave the way for a new military takeover to overcome the "love lost" of the earlier (1999) one. This second part of the deal was what the BB was beginning to understand and coming around, and so the "deal or no deal" was turning out to be a no-deal. That is why the US found it quite convenient, using the Pakistan Army (with whom it had a dual fulfillment of purpose in this) to get rid of the BB. A fake will was drawn, with full consultations with Zardari, in which he would be the default chair of the PPP, and the deal gone bad would then pursue smoothly. He also had a hand in this murder working with the Army/US. The party has been hijacked by a total outsider to the cause of the ZAB, and it was achieved quite painlessly by colluding in the killing of the BB by the US/Army/Zardari trio.
---------------

A full day after I wrote this Fatima Bhutto hinted at the fake will in this news report

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/fatima-bhutto-breaks-he r-silence-questions-benazirs-will-bilawal-being-the-ppp-chief_10012733.html

F atima Bhutto breaks her silence, questions Benazirs will, Bilawal being the PPP chief
January 13th, 2008

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I must be a goddamned genius!
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#67 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 11:27:45 am
Ahmadmadni writes "where usa elites do not give damn to old people and they treat as just useless old folks."

Old people are totally missing or totally devalued in US popular culture. You my friend are a genius!
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#68 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 11:56:19 am
In addition to #67 let me add that ageism, just like sexism, racism, ethnic bigotry and militarism is rampant in this cesspool, if there ever was a visible belly of shaitan that all can see it is this country crisscrossed by a matrix of rules and regulations punishing the little man yet parading itself as an "open society"

Those of you who can save yourself from this trap of fakery and lies, meaningless existence in the belly of the beast, don't miss the opportunity, return to the homeland....
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#69 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 11:57:51 am
You can thank me for the advice later, save yourselves first...
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#70 Posted by chaltahai on January 19, 2008 12:29:05 pm
Masadi did you get strip searched when you were kicked out out fo the US? :)

SO the US played with the lives of the pakistanis...pakistanis played with the lives of afghanis and indian kashmiris for a long time..grow up..this is the real world. The biggest mistake the jhad chanda box fillers made was thinking that their supported would remain in the protracted areas of conflict. A grave mistake...since that fateful day of 9?11, every center of muslim power is reeling...and it is their own damn fault.
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#71 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 12:41:12 pm
Chalta writes "since that fateful day of 9?11, every center of muslim power is reeling...and it is their own damn fault. "

I have been given good advice not to respond to intellectual inferiors and dimwits that just throw words out that make zero sense. Let me ignore that advice here for a little bit. I was never ever thrown out of the US, and a contrived "farce" contrived by the US elite to get a new war without end going using a new "pearl harbor" in which they were complacent, indirectly at the very least, can never be described as the fault of the Muslims, and no "center of Muslim power" is reeling, all those "centers" if you read your history were coopted long before 9/11 or were non existant to start with. The biggest mistake of the "chanda box fillers" was to be used as scapegoat by the US and its occupation force because of lack of education and being monkeys whose strings are easily manuvered for all kinds of perversions. Now go run off you idiot...
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#72 Posted by hamidm2 on January 19, 2008 12:43:07 pm
Re: # 68

masadi,

...... you fool ! ....... aarp is the most powerful lobby in the us and we old folks control most of the money as well ..... if you are not careful, we will come after you with our beer bellys, flamingo legs, saggy mammaries and wrinkled gonads .... now, you don't want some eighty year old granny whipping you with a wet noodle, do you? ......... but knowing you, you will probably enjoy it - pervert !

........ but seriously, you need to get over it - there are many people who can't make it in this land of opportunity ... there is no shame in sleeping under a bridge and living off government cheese if you like the great outdoors and dairy products ...... be happy where you are ...... being a born whiner, i am sure you are making people around you in pakistan miserable as well ..... stop it before they kick you out too .......where will you go then ?

........ by the way, how do you think the us elite is behind the atta, chini, electricity and gas crisis ? ... do you think mossad has a hand in it?
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#73 Posted by philosopher on January 19, 2008 12:50:19 pm
Man 'marries' bitch to beat curse

The "bride" wore a sari and a garland.









Enlarge Image

An Indian man has "married" a female dog, hoping the move will help atone for stoning two other dogs to death.
P Selvakumar, 33, said he had been cursed since the killings, suffering paralysis and a loss of hearing.

The wedding took place at a Hindu temple in Tamil Nadu state. The "bride" wore an orange sari with a flower garland and was fed a bun to celebrate.

Superstitious people in rural India sometimes organise weddings to animals in the hope of warding off curses.

'Tried every cure'

Crowds cheered the newly-weds at the end of the ceremony in Sivaganga district, about 50km (30 miles) east of the city of Madurai.

The "bride", who is called Selvi, was led to the temple in Manamudurai wearing a sari before vows were exchanged in a traditional Hindu ceremony.

A relative of the groom who attended the wedding said he hoped Mr Selvakumar would now be cured.

"Fifteen years back Selvakumar was physically fit. But, once he attacked a pair of dogs and thereafter Kumar could not move his limbs freely," the relative, Ramu, told the BBC.

"He tried every cure for his ailment but could not be rid of his disability.

"On the advice of an astrologer and others, he decided to marry a bitch to get cured. Then we arranged Selvakumar's marriage with a bitch."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7093422.stm

Here is the video link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOkIL3mC5NI

P.S. gao-muttar cola is being served to all the guests and the special dish for vegetarians is gao-goaber bhaaji.
Gao knows better.

anil, mohar, arjun..fast...join the party.







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#74 Posted by philosopher on January 19, 2008 12:53:42 pm


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#75 Posted by philosopher on January 19, 2008 12:54:34 pm
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#76 Posted by philosopher on January 19, 2008 12:56:50 pm
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#77 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 12:59:36 pm
hamid writes "...... you fool ! ....... aarp is the most powerful lobby in the us and we old folks control most of the money as well ..... "

Nonsense as usual, AARP represents a small proportion of the over 50 population in the US, and some of the rich old white males might control a lot of wealth, that is not the case with the vast majority that can no longer work. It is this parallel with racism, that suicide for blacks peaks among young men (when they are rejected by the system) and that for white males when the reach the over 50 age (when they are rejected by the system), and the fact that old people not only are missing from popular culture but are mainly reflected by it based on negative stereotypes that we see how poorly the old are valued in this system.

For actual facts and figures, I will spare you the copy paste, you can read them here
http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Politics/5-12-19-AgeDiscrimination.htm

Where it comes to ending ageism, AARP stands for shit in the USA.
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#78 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 1:02:45 pm
hamid writes "........ by the way, how do you think the us elite is behind the atta, chini, electricity and gas crisis ? ... do you think mossad has a hand in it? "

You remain an idiot don't you. If you are so naive to believe that the political environment of Pakistan and its policies have nothing to do with its economy then you can believe in any cock and bull micro-tales of why foodstuff is mismanaged and blame the shopkeeper and what not. Those who are educated know that it's the POLITICAL-economy stupid and where the US relationship with the country is based on mass looting and handing over the reins of the country to thugs you can sure as hell lay the blame on them...and your grandma cannot rescue you from this one
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#79 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 1:04:36 pm
philosopher "An Indian man has "married" a female dog, hoping the move will help atone for stoning two other dogs to death."

That is old news, several months old....
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#80 Posted by shankar on January 19, 2008 2:11:38 pm
Romair,
re #56

India isnt harboring AlQeeda & Taleban leaders. Pakistan is. Pakistan is involved, how the heck can you be "neutral"?!

If Pakistan says, we dont want to be involved, the US will have no choice but to comit their troops into Pakistan.

Just how the heck are you going to sell "neutrality" to the yanks?

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#81 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 2:45:38 pm
shankar writes "
India isnt harboring AlQeeda & Taleban leaders. Pakistan is. Pakistan is involved, how the heck can you be "neutral"?!"

Wrong. Pakistan isn't harboring anyone, it was FORCED to harbor them to begin with by the US and its occupation force and then to control the fallout from that mess. Everywhere the US wants to take its dirt like Iraq, Iran etc becomes a harboring place for "Al Qaeda and the Taliban", quite convenient I would say. On the other hand India harbors terrorists from neighbouring countries like Sri Lanka, Nepal, Pakistan etc, not to mention the ethnic/regional dirt going on within the country....not to mention those that marry bitches and trees and other such perverts....
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#82 Posted by mohar11 on January 19, 2008 5:19:08 pm
philo
[... man marries female dog...]

you shouldn't be surprised - because you yourself are the product of exactly similar unholy union... ha ha...

You pakis are too easy... Now - go ahead flag this post...
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#83 Posted by masadi on January 19, 2008 6:00:28 pm
mohar writes "you pakis are too easy...."

And you, whoever the F you are are too damn stupid. An Indian Hindu marries a real live bitch (not of the Hillary Clinton variet but the woof woof variety) and somehow that gets translated to "Pakis" being the product of that union. What kind of perverted logic are you using?
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