A History of the Pakistan Army by Brian Cloughley

Re: # 150 i have a different opinion.punjab was centre of many extremist movements even before partition, notable being the Ahrar Movement.It also produced the Khaksars.It started becoming Talibanised well before partition and this process culminated in 1980s when state patronage dovetailed in.

the hindustani muslims who migrated were not extremists.true that maudoodi was quite a maulvi.he had moved to punjab before partition because he found punjab a more suitable place for his views.even the mullahs of deoband were less popular in UP than in NWFP and even Afghanistan well before partition.

the strategy of pakistan army and its tactics are explained in great detail in my book pakistan army till 1965.i dont think i need to explain any thing in greater detail.the answer as to why pakistan was in a position to inflict a defeat on india as well as india on pakistan is given in sufficient detail in some of the posts on this issue.Anyhow there are many diehard extremists like dear HP THE GREAT who still want to argue pointlessly.To such irrational questions i have no answers.

Re: # 144 My dear Ustaad , just disregard those. I think too much Stolichnaya .

It is really depressing intelligent and mature person mr. A Amin uses past to lambast punjabis of today. Also the abuses started by mr. Arjun i.e. word Paki he uses. English court judge has warned English punks to stop useing this word as it is derogatory and said to punks if again used will 6 months punishment. Now sure english white old judge know fairness and what Paki means. It is just similar to "N" world in canada uk or usa.

Things are getting to complex here and too many bad words used and bad topics people talk and write and all poems are heavy duty and read them is like donkey carrying big load and too much american oriented stuff and I am not even sure most who claim are in usa, uk etc are really there or they just boast who knows they may be living little places in Punjab or Sindh. Now we have too much american content here all referenced to USA as paradise and des is garbage.

Any way I am getting cofused by different opinions.

Good day , Bye

Re: # 139 HP Sir you are sane person to say truth which I said also that it is not possible to defeat india and take red fort. But Kashmir and Punjab liberation is possible with patience and secret help.Just we had Kashmir day and average pakistani was enraged against India and ready to sacrifice and ready to under go privations to liberate Kashmir. Time has tendency to bring people down and they rationalise theories why not to fight etc. Now indians are playing game like useing water of Pakistani river to produce 450 MW power which will supplied to IHK and that slowly puts pakistani interests against local kashimiri interests. As local kashimiri will say why they oppose we getting power from pakistani river going through area. So things must be tackled early or they will make ground conditions where Pakistani and Kashmiri interests clash.
Then real question arises such huge army with megatons of bombs will in SEARCH OF MISSION. What will be mission ? Can army be reduced to like Indian army controlled by civilian leadership?
The indian army has no authority to Initiate anything except reversal of parades but can activist revolutionary army of 60 years will be content to retire to pasture?
Also when civilian ruluers make blunders opposition instead of looking for election to defeat urges army to dismiss govt, can they allow country to go to chaos and disturbances and keep out of temptations?
Lastly as joined junior and front line partner againt terror will USA allow them not be part of WOT ?
Once army leadership comes to conclusions to make some of above questions that will decide future. Army commands the guns and guns command country. Farewell to arms does not seems to be in near future as USA will force army to fight their wars.Country and army depenent financially and state of war technology and paranoid with Indian overshadow fortified by Indian movies and rising economic clout and more listing of companies can make rational decisions?

It is duty and correct way for Indian nation to be generous and help to bring down temperature and stop all help to terrorists blowing national assets and show real intensions cut all aid to A.Stan and close all offices except Kabul capital and specially places like Kandahar, Jalalbad the places near a.stan-Pakistan border. Make good efforts to solve problems in Kashmir by allowing pakistan army to control valley muslim majority, other ares they can be there.

seriously...shouldn't pureland have a pureland solidarity day instead of a kashmir solidarity day? I mean the chances of kashmir becoming pureland are zero but the chances of pureland going away are quite high..



10 killed, 27 hurt as bomber strikes army bus

* Troops seal off area, erect tents, police not immediately allowed near site
* Caretaker interior minister says Baitullah Mehsud likely involved in blast

By Aamir Yasin and Imran Asghar

RAWALPINDI: Ten people were killed and 27 injured on Monday when a suicide bomber crashed his bike into an armed forces bus carrying students and officials of Army Medical College, near the General Headquarters (GHQ) at around 7.25am, sources in military hospitals said.

An eyewitness said the suicide bomber hit the 30-seater bus in front of National Logistic Cell (NLC) offices close to the GHQ, blowing away the roof, windows and doors of the bus. Several other vehicles were also damaged. A van carrying schoolchildren was also partially damaged, but the children remained unhurt.

RA Bazaar police Station House Officer (SHO) Raja Basharat Abbasi told Daily Times at the crime scene that it was a suicide attack. According to him, it was yet to be established if the suicide bomber had been riding a bike.

He said three civilians and two armed forces personnel were killed and 10 military officials seriously injured, adding that an FIR had been registered and investigations started.

According to ISPR, four security forces personnel were killed in the blast.

Pavo,

You are being too harsh on Punjabi muslims. You have unrealistic expectations that Punjabi muslims will show the same level of zealousness about religion and about conquering India as the Afghans/Pashtuns had. From a historical perspective, Punjabis were reluctant converts at best. They resisted for a long time against muslim invaders. People like urstruly have openly acknowledged how their ancestors fought against muslim invaders. Secondly their conversion was more to retain their land and livelihood under muslim rule, while hoping to blunt the fierce Afghan assualts on Punjab, which were a recurring phenenomenon. A significant number were converted by sufis, which made them more prone to pacifism than conflict.

It is interesting to note that there is not one instance of a Punjabi muslim preacher going to the rest of India to preach Islam. Forget about the rest of India, they did not even bother converting entire Punjab. Similarly there isnt any account of Punjabi muslims developing an army or even joining the army of muslim kings to fight against hindus and convert them to Islam. And mind you, this is over a 1000 year time period. If anything, punjabi muslims were quite happy to just lead their own lives as muslims living under whoever ruled the land, whether it was muslims, sikhs, british etc. Even during 1947, it was only in late 1946 that punjabi muslims supported the pakistan movement.

The fundamental problem is that the british somehow elevated punjabi muslims as a 'martial race', mainly as a means to crush the hindustani troops who had rebelled in 1857. Ever since, punjabi muslims have got that label. However, historically there is no precedence of punjabi muslim aggression against anyone, whether it is to the east, west, north or south.

Once pakistan got created, the mohajir class who went from India were all fired up about fighting against India. However, they soon realized that punjabi muslims didnt really have the interest or the fortitude of fighting india. The mohajirs tried their best to brainwash paki society to become religious fanatics and they succeeded to some extent. However, punjabi muslims never lost their fundamental disinterest in military aggression, in spite of suddenly gaining absolute power in pakistan. The bottom line is that you cannot compare the pashtuns who have been fighting for millenia to punjabis who have been peaceful for millenia.

#142 Posted by bulleya,

The army Officer training does produce sound people management skills, and that's what counts in business. Any business. Do grant the army that!

#144 Posted by ijaz_gul.

Ijaz, Agha feels extremely strongly about the Khem Karan episode, a historical opportunity lost, just as I feel extremely strongly about the historical opportunity lost in 2002-3 when the entire national savings were doubled in just 18 months.

I wrote an FP article about that. We are experts at throwing away windfalls.

Fuzair,
mera wajood mera dushman hai
mera raqeeb merey ander hai
mein apne aap se jang mein hoon

Ijaz,

When PAVO is not in his cups, he is an excellent analyst. When he is, God help him.

HP,

I refer you to my post #122.

Pakistan had two options:

ONE Acknowledge India's hegemony in S. Asia and turn itself into a slightly more powerful version of Nepal.

TWO Challenge India's hegemony in S. Asia.

I think we know which route Pakistan chose. Whether or not this was the 'correct' route is another matter. It was not the military's unilateral decision to challenge India. The PA did not start the 1948-49 War on its own accord.

Given that it was challenging Indian hegemonic pretensions, the best time to strike would have been right after the Indian military defeat in the 1962 Sino-Indian War BEFORE the Indians rebuilt their Army, replaced generals like Kaul and doubled its strength. Now, what is so hard to understand about that?

What makes more sense? Fight your much bigger, stronger enemy when he has already had the crap kicked out of him by someone else or wait till he has taken a course in karate and body building and then pick a fight with him?

Compare Pakistan's military performance in 1965 vs. that in 1971. Which was better? How much better did the Indians perform in 1971 vs 1965 vs 1962?

I'd suggest you read PAVO's excellent article, ignoring some of the hyperbole, on Operation Grand Slam http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/sept/grand-slam.htm to figure out if there was reason for thinking that the PA could take Akhnur and inflict a decisive defeat on the Indians.

Agha
What happened to you from 125-135?

HP,
would love to meet you in islamabad. Maybe I am in Karachi on the 6th.
Cheerios

zeemax # "The funds for setting up military enterprises don't come from the Government, but from the deductions made from militarymen during service towards post-retirement benefits...."

...this may have been true when these organizations were set up, but it certainly isn't true today.......the military personnel could put their whole salaries into these organizations, and their still would not be enough money to carry out the buyouts these organizations plan.....

these organizations were set up as small little entities, to assist retired military men.......however, due to military influence, they turned into proper conglomerates.......it would seem like, from the outside, as if they followed the natural growth path of an private business venture.....start small, work hard, grow big.....

however, they grew big due to military and govt. patronage....obviously generals aren't businessmen and entrepreneurs.....i cannot recall any senior officer running these entitites becoming a successful entrepreneur when he retired......i know some who tried and failed.....

when one has access to so much of the country's resources, any venture will be successful......however, if one is to run these like a nationalized company then the profit should go to the whole country.......

i don't recall any of my salary going into any of these organizations, and i certainly didn't get anything in return......however, even if someone salary goes into them, they should simply get a proportionate number of shares......they should not get a plot in defence at throwaway prices......nor should they be made the chairman of the board of a bank or a real estate entity......can you imagine a bank president being asked to fly an f-16 or command a division!!!

As soon as I get to karachi and get togather, I will post more on the subject!

Asadi, email me your phone. I will be in Lahore a week later!