A History of the Pakistan Army by Brian Cloughley

fuzair #: "They failed politically in Algeria;"

the purpose of any insurgency, any guirella warfare is to win the political war......

there is, absolutely no way for an insurgency of rag-tag militants to win a military battle against any professional army.....

......this is why in any insurgency, the number of soldiers killed, of the invading/occupying army is gigantically lower than the number of civilians and civilian fighters killed amongst the insurgents and the local supporting population.......

yet, the invaders/occupiers lose the political war......the tactic used is to exhaust them...to make it not worth their while to occupy the place.....to put international pressure on them.....to create domestic uproar in their country......

the purpose of any war, any occupation, is to achieve a politcal objective.......not to win a military war......

usa defeated the standing army of iraq in weeks.....however, it has lost the war, because it cannot achieve the political objective of occupying iraq and implementing its will there.......similarly in afghanistan, the usa defeated the taliban army - the defacto official army of afghanistan, in less than two days....yet it is on the verge of losing the political battle......it canot even get nato to increase troops, and some nato countris are thinking of leaving, i.e. admitting they have lost........

the political war is the real war.......the military war is simply a step to achieve the victory.......this is the difference you seem to not understand......

PAVO #223,

Sigh. The French did not fail militarily in Algeria; they did in Vietnam. They failed politically in Algeria; mainly having to do with the fact that the French public wouldn't stomach the tactics necessary for victory and was upset that their children were being drafted into the Army. There is a difference between failing militarily and failing to have the political will to push through a policy to its end; if you weren't drunk, you would understand it.

As far as ruthlessness goes, I suggest you ask your Russian Army friends to describe how they levelled Grozny if you want to understand the difference between the US military tactics and true ruthlessness. Or the Syrian "Pink Panthers" who 'pacified' Hama. Compared to them, the Americans, who get somewhat upset over a My Lai or a Haditha, are just rank amateurs. Of course the Americans inflict civilian casualties and aren't really all that concerned about minimizing 'collateral damage' to civilians but they do not have a policy of deliberately killing thousands of civilians to pacify the country.

And before some moron screams "Iraq Sanctions," let me remind them that Saddam Hussein had more than enough money to build a few more palaces, just not enough to buy medicine or food for children. The US wasn't willing to lift sanctions to avoid civilian deaths (not a terribly moral attitude but no one believes that the US is the Shining City on the Hill do they?) but it was Saddam who wanted to spend money on everything other than helping his people.

#227 Posted by zeemax on February 6, 2008 11:37:18 pm


Wonder why they hanged Saddam for trying to do exactly that.


to recap.

1. Saddam's tactics will work for sure.
2. Saddam's tactics aren't acceptable to the american people...which is why the iraqis were allowed to hang saddam.

so there's no contradiction there. it's like saying killing everyone in a neighborhood will solve the crime problem there but the cops won't do it. both are true.

Re: # 232 Grand slam was a failure , despite great superiority the pakistanis failed to cross the tawi , delayed by a small indian post at burjeal.abdul ali also was hands up at chawinda and according to fazl muqeem miserably unsuccessful in all counterattacks in 1971 like barapind,however both were ahmadis,that was the plus part

Fakir sahib,

Maybe they won a few battles too.

Regards

Re: # 230 good....i am sured these must have worked very hard polishing shoes

Fakir sahib,

(generals akhtar hussain and abdul ali malik were batmen of british officers. )

It is a good thing that the Pak Army allows people from humble ranks to rise to the top. Unlike the Hindoos whose adherence to the caste system cripples upward mobility of lots of people.

Regards

i have been told by a very senior officer that both generals akhtar hussain and abdul ali malik were batmen of british officers.

I am quoting from pavocavalry's ilog on blackwater.....i think that americans should be destroyed:-------

Blackwater-Rise of a Mercenary Mafia with a legal cover

September 2007

A.H Amin

When the Americans make war they do it for profit ! Thus the emergence of the phrase “ Oil is thicker than blood� ! The same is as valid today as was in 1776 when the USA was created ! The foundation of USA was laid on the genocide of America’s native population.Human Rights and democracy were coined as corner stones of US society once genocide was successfully accomplished.Just like Saddam allegedly exterminated the Kurds using gas supplied by USA and Europeans in 1980s , a personality no less eminent than USA’s founder George Washington was involved in the genocide of USA’s Kurds i.e the Native Indians or Red Indians.The pretext of George Washington’s Operation Anfal was that he was protecting the US frontier.His real motives were that of a real estate agent ! The source of these allegations is not a book published in Iran , but a book recently published in USA ![i] Real estate speculator George Washington was a leading player of the Ohio Company , a Virginia land company.Under George Washington’s orders many thousand Red Indians were killed so that virgin land was occupied free of cost in large tracts of land in present day New York and Ohio and later sold to steady stream of immigrants at very high profits.Will someone try George Washington for genocide ! George Washington’s Chemical Ali in these genocide expeditions to kill unarmed natives were Generals Joseph Sullivan and one Roger Clarks.

Acting in the best tradition of making wars for profit Blackwater was created in December 1996 by a wealthy business man Erik Prince.Prince OF Dutch ancestry ,who was a staunch Christian belonging to the conservative Dutch Reform Church also known as Calvinists.Prince was also a member of an ultra right conservative body known as Council for National Policy.Prince was also active in another ultra right Christian organization known as “ Christian Freedom International�

#223 Posted by pavocavalry,

The gentleman is talking about genocide. You know ... kill them all and there will be no more insurgency.

Wonder why they hanged Saddam for trying to do exactly that.

we understand that he was demoted to major when he refused to agree to the martial law imposed by zab.

Who is Brig (Retd) Niaz who is being given much prominence in the
media. He is reputed to be an instructor of General (Retd) Musharaf
and currently is being viewed as the Grand Deal maker of Musraraf's
dying dispensation.


Brig. Niaz who hails from village Dharnial Tehsil Pind Dadan (where
majority profess to be followers of Ahmadi sect) was a sepoy clerk in
the Army. Due to shortage of officers after partition the Army started
a scheme whereby sepoy clerks were inducted into the officer ranks.
Brig Niaz was amongst those who benefited from this scheme. Brig Niaz
was amongst the three Brigadiers who played General Zia's game very
cleverly in 1977 in Lahore during the PNA movement in the sense that
they refused to come to the aid of an elected civil Government when it
wanted to quell violence unleashed by the Mullah dominated alliance.
The lawlessness in the country was later used as a pretext to impose
Martial Law. Contrast this to the officer's corps willingness to go on
killing a spree in Baluchistan, FATA, and Swat etc in order to save
the unelected Government of an Army dictator. In retrospect the
refusal to obey a civilian Governments order during a mullah lead
campaign also confirms existence of Mullah – Military Alliance.


After retirement from the Army Brig. Niaz started a food outlet in
Lalkurti area of Rawalpindi Cantonment. His luck changed when General
Zia Ul Haq summoned him and Brig (Retd) Ashraf Gondal (the other Brig
at Lahore in 1977) and introduced them to the executives of Swedish
(Ericsson) and Swiss (Orlikon) firms who were in the process of
receiving huge Defense supply orders from the Army. Both these
Brigadiers acted as front men for Zia Ul Haq. Multimillion dollars
orders were placed for Law Altitude Defense Radars (LADS) with
Ericsson of Sweden and for anti aircraft guns Orlikons with the Swiss
Company. It is reported that these two deals netted a commission of
nearly 100 million US Dollars which these Brigadiers shared with
Zia Ul Haq.


After becoming a millionaire in Dollar terms Brig. Niaz started living
lavishly and entertaining lavishly. Parvaiz Musharaf was amongst the
group of officers who were regularly supplied with all sorts of booze
and other things in life courtesy the Brigadier who also employed Col.
(Retd) Aslam Cheema a course mate and best friend (closer then Tariq
Aziz) of Musharraf and after Musharraf's uncle retired he too was
appointed as an office Manager in Niaz's Business.


After Musharaf became the President Cheema became the main Defense
supplier and a partner of Niaz. Both have managed to snatch the
agencies of old established defense agents by forcing the suppliers to
change agents if they wanted business in Pakistan. Over the last four
years Cheema and Niaz (both Ahmedi's) have managed to secure following
businesses:-


1) Supply of tank engines for Al - Khalid & Al- Zarar tanks
from Ukraine – worth nearly 500 millions US Dollars.


2) Supply of Early warning system for Air force from SAAB
Sweden worth 1.2 Billion US Dollars. This deal signed one week after
the earthquake of October 2005 was originally for 650 Million US
Dollars. Niaz over invoiced it by US Dollars 550 million. What a rape
of a poor country's resources.


In addition Niaz & Cheema are now the biggest contractor/suppliers in
Civil Departments. One of their front Companies will be building the
new GHQ worth billions of rupees. Obviously Mush gets a big share of
this bounty.


Niaz's recommendation matters the most in securing promotions and good
postings both in the Army as well as on the Civilian side.

The Indian Army liberated Bangladesh.The Bengalis have to thank the Indians for that . Although as per many analysts Bangladesh was India's strategic mistake.

Re: # 205 it appears that you have converted to christianity or are on the path to it.

Algeria was a French failure.Even the present Algerian military government is a failure in quelling the insurgency .

Iraq is a failure despite US ruthlessness.What do you about US ruthlessness without ever having been to Afghanistan.

In insurgency if there are symapthiser state or non state actors in the physical proximity of the insurgency hit countries insurgents cannot be defeated.

IN #221 read "with which any insurgency, given time, in the Bangladeshi one, would have defeated the thugs of the Pakistan Army/Us type they were fighting" as

with which any insurgency, given time, even the Bangladeshi one, would have defeated the thugs of the Pakistan Army/Us type they were fighting

Fuzair writes "S. Vietnam fell to regular NVA troops; remember the invasion of the South by NVA main-force armoured divisions? That is what defeated S. Vietnam, not a bunch of part-time insurgents and terrorists running around in black pajamas. "

Those "terrorists" running around in black pajamas were the ones who controlled most of the countryside of the North, were a major factor in the exit of the Americans and without which the NVA would have been nothing- they had popular support with which any insurgency, given time, in the Bangladeshi one, would have defeated the thugs of the Pakistan Army/Us type they were fighting. Of course they need supplies and some one has to open up a spigot to them but the spigot itself just acts not as cause but as catalyst. An idiot who after seeing over a million butchered in Iraq says that the US has not won there because it has not been brutal enough needs to be horse whipped but unfortunately these a-holes with brains of rats have been in charge of our country, while shitting in their pants at every battle, in the guise of the national army of Pakistan. Soon these thugs will be removed from every quarter of this country...now go __ yourself.