A History of the Pakistan Army by Brian Cloughley

Re: # 110 the factual position is that now the strategic thinking in india as well as USA/NATO is as to how to denuclearise pakistan.this is the concept around which all low intensity wars will be fought.the nuclear era has not unfortunately brought any sanity in india or even pakistan , although now strategically pakistan is on the defensive.

as i see it its now not difficult for the USA to denuclearise pakistan.the real trouble in the region will start once USA tries to do it actively.

Re:majumdar

Majumdar bhai, there is no chance of any war. Both sides want the status quo. Neither side has any interest in conquering the other. So it is going to be business as usual...

man is not rational , thats the tragedy . that was the conclusion freud came to in 1930s.its still true and will always be true.

the end game is that with the nuclear deterrent both sides are concentraing more and more on undermining the other or defending each other at the covert level.now there is more concentration at low intensity/proxy level.things have not changed,methods have changed.the army in pakistan has a vested interest in keeping things in a state of semi conflict.

the end game is that with the nuclear deterrent both sides are concentraing more and more on undermining the other or defending each other at the covert level.now there is more concentration at low intensity/proxy level.things have not changed,methods have changed.the army in pakistan has a vested interest in keeping things in a state of semi conflict.

zeemax #: ""The fact is, whatever businesses Pakistan Army operates, are to fund the retirement benefits of the soldiers"

...this is incorrect......enlisted retired army soldiers are some of the poorest guys in society......nearly the whole army actually consists of enlisted personnel.....they get nothing, comparitively speaking.....

......the industrial empire of the army, overwhelmingly, benefits the top heavy hierarchy of the army.......

......the army budget belongs to the people of pakistan.....so if it is going to be used in industry, it needs to be controlled by the govt. and should be distributed amongst the people of pakistan; not within a certain group.......

all army industrial conglomerates should be treated like normal nationalised company......there should be no difference between askari bank and national bank.......etc.

Amin sahib,

Re: 116

We are certainly aware of Pak's role in Kashmir, NE and now evidence is emerging of terror network/training camps in South India. But what about India's role. B'stan militancy possibly has had some RAW role maybe even MQM in the past. But what about the Pak Talibs, does the RAW have any connexions there?

Regards

#118 Posted by bulleya,

While it is true the Officers get the lion's share in terms of real-estate etc, however even the enlisted men have a good chance at jobs at either the army business enterprises directly, or in the private sector through placement bureaus of the Army Welfare Trust. While living in Lahore my driver was an ex-SSG person (with a few hundred para jumps under his belt) hired through the AWT. Similarly, AWT places ex-servicemen with private security establishments around the country.

But generally I do agree it's the top echelons who benefit the most by a wide margin.

De-nuking pakistan,

Pavo,

Nice tp know that you also consider that scenario.

Nominally there are two situations where this becomes un-avoidable. One is another attack on the west, this time with some nuclear material. The world will try hard, but likely to be un-successful because it is only radio active material and not the bomb.

Next and most likely is when the jihadis take over pakistan. With jihad in the name of god being the motto of the pak army, there is not much difference with the al quida doctrine.

Already many troops are refusing to fight in wazitistan due to the same reason, they are brothers with a common mission, jihad.

With the slow but styaedy collapse of teh systems in pakistan, ranging from law and order to food supply to crime, the jihadis are knocking on islamabad doors.

Now it is well known that the bank roberies are done by the jihadis and no one getting caught. Jihadis are routinely escaping from the prisons. May be many in the pak army also believes that take over by the jihadis are not far away and a part of the army itself might side with the jihadis. The capture of 200 soldiers and their return with travel money is one indication that rule by the jihadis mught be better for the foot soldiers.

Once that kind of jihadic take ever happens, de-nuking is certain, what ever be the consequences.

The change in India military strategy fo rapid deployment might be prelude to that eventuality.

HP and Ijaz,

The issues is not whether Pakistan had a defensive strategy in 65 or an offensive one. It is simply that between 62 and 65 the Indian Army virtuallly doubled in size and in that same time period, the US provided almost as much military aid to India as it had to Pakistan in the ten years till 1965.

62 also displayed many structural weaknesses in the Indian Army: units fleeing en masse at the first sign of the Chinese, and the complete incompetence of the IA's higher command. IIRC, the Chinese took something like 4,000 Indian POWs and the Indians not a single one. Despite the bravery of units like the Kumaon Regt, the Indian Army had completely collapsed and a hysterical Nehru was begging for US and UK help when the Chinese declared a unilateral cease fire and withdrew. The Henderson-Brooks report on the fiasco is still classified by the Indian govt as it is, presumably, extremely critical of Nehru's meddling in the Army and the refusal of the govt to increase the Indian Defence budget.

By 1965 Pakistan was facing a very different Indian Army and the rest is history.

Major Sahib,

While you were at PMA or doing the Armour YO course, did you ever meet a Sahibzada Ahmad Khan, 6L? IIRC he was BSM or something like that at PMA, used to be really good at Bullshtting cadets!

zeemax #: "But generally I do agree it's the top echelons who benefit the most by a wide margin....."

yes, this is true......they get nearly everything.....you don't get anything in the military till you are a bridagdier.....and then when you become a maj. gen (and above), the whole dam breaks, and you get anything and everything......far far beyond your skills.....there are serving generals chairing boards of huge industrial conglomerates.....many of them would not have qualifications for entry level jobs into those, if they were totally private.......

the biggest problem with AWT and Fauji Foundation and Shaheen Foundation and all their subsidiaries is that they are owned by the government, hence they are nationalised industries, however, they only benefit a select group.....i.e. military and that too senior officers.......

(this is apart from the discussion that soliders shouldn't be meddling in industry, as they will lose their will to fight)........

it's like national bank being a govt. owned bank, but its profits not going to the govt. to be distributed to the rest of the country......its profits only going to the employees of national bank........and that too, to the executive committtee..........

the best way to solve this is to either privatize the whole awt and fauji foundation and then allow soldiers to buy shares in the privatized entity, through a combined pool.....or to fairly nationalize them and then distribute a certain portion on the benefits to the soldiers, based on contributions made by them through their providence funds.....and if some soldier is injured in war etc. his family should, obviously, get something from them......

what is wrong is to take a serving general and make him the head of DHA or a bank and give the military access to these institutions (which are owned by the govt. as the military is owned by the govt.), and the benefits provided by them.....

basically, it is taking govt. money and benefitting a tiny group.......rather than benefiting everyone.......it is good to hear that your driver got a job through AWT, but that job should be open to all poor citizens of pakistan.......

Mr Fuzair, I dont know any person of that name .May be junior to me.

DENUKING PAKISTAN:-- This is a distinct possiblity .The guys dealing with Paki nukes are quite hopeless.They are after petty personal privileges.

Re: # 122 PAKISTAN had an offensive strategy in 1965 and it had the superiority at Khem Karan 7 to 1 but miserably failed.It sure did.THAT WAS THE CONCLUSION OF MY BOOK PAKISTAN ARMY TIL 1965.Pakistan Army THAT UNDOUBTED FAILURE.

Re: # 125 You give a Corolla XLI or a Corolla GLI to a Paki intelligence guy and he gets it as official car and this guy is very excited about it.This is his ceiling and his calibre.Its all quite BS.

we did serve the paki army , but it was a pathetic lot , pashtuns,punjabis and some mohajirs , all hopeless job seekers, just hopeless guys , the americans can lay them any time , if they understand,just hopeless guys