Afghanistan - A Strategic Analysis

And in addition to #536, you tahmed if you feel the urge to accuse me baselessly of lying without providing even ONE example, and repeating the BS that I have not substantiated on my claim that you worship the white man and his shit unconditionally, if you feel the urge to repeat that FLUFF again here on this thread, I suggest you go __ yourself...

tahmed #515, don't try to insult the intelligence of the readers here by merely repeating your BS ad nauseum. You are merely ashamed of your views when they get explicitly exposed so you deny them. I have provided here a url of your article published by chowk which substantiates whatever I wrote about you regarding Iraq and your love of the white man's shit. The other points were well substantiated as well. Your posts stink of an enslaved mind that wants to perpetuate the slavery of our people to the white man, you don't need to be an Einstein to figure that one out and whether you deny it to fool the people as your masters do when they deny their carnage the globe over, it does not prove anything, it only proves that in addition to being a spineless snake you are a lying hypocrite as well.

tahmed #515, don't try to insult the intelligence of the readers here by merely repeating your BS ad nauseum. You are merely ashamed of your views when they get explicitly exposed so you deny them. I have provided here a url of your article published by chowk which substantiates whatever I wrote about you regarding Iraq and your love of the white man's shit. The other points were well substantiated as well. Your posts stink of an enslaved mind that wants to perpetuate the slavery of our people to the white man, you don't need to be an Einstein to figure that one out and whether you deny it to fool the people as your masters do when they deny their carnage the globe over, it does not prove anything, it only proves that in addition to being a spineless snake you are a lying hypocrite as well.

Harimau,

My contention is, patriotism is, more often, a tool for whipping up hatred.

Patriotism was the single biggest factor in motivating the English too.

Now, Do you realize the cost of running a nation state?

Don't you think, the idea of nation state has legtimized:
1. a few individuals' aspirations to rule over others
2. to allow these individuals to convert the people to be the enemies of their enemies.
3. people like MK, Mayawati, Jayalalitha and their malice.

Why should a poor peasant have to pay taxes on all the commodities, without which he would have had more purchasing power, disposable income etc...

Why should a peasant subsidize the lives of war mongerers?

Why do we need a government?
Money spent to have a government running is quite exhorbitant.

Does a government represent all the aspirations of all the people?

Why would an Indian/Pakistani die for somebody's cause?

Would anybody in his right mind want to die for the prejudices of a few individuals on either side of the border?

It is just because he cannot afford a lifestyle that has to pay exhorbitant taxes.

The other day, on a NDTV program that purports to motivate the soldiers, Preity Jinta's army officer brother was introducing the soldiers to her. He took enough effort to be careful to introduce the soldiers by Rajputs, Jats, Marathas etc...I believe they are both names of regiments as well castes. What appalled me was, he dismissively pointed towards south indian soldiers and said 'Madrasis'. He wasn't even looking at them. To rub salt, Preity started doling out Telugu dialogues in a very crude way. It was very insulting.

I dunno if Preity and her family had ever wondered why they deserve all the respect and comforts they are enjoying.

What does it mean to be a patriotic soldier?
To be at the receiving end of condescend?
Why do I have to hate a Pakistani? To safeguard Preity and her ilk?

Harimau,

My contention is, patriotism is, more often, a tool for whipping up hatred.

Patriotism was the single biggest factor in motivating the English too.

Now, Do you realize the cost of running a nation state?

Don't you think, the idea of nation state has legtimized:
1. a few individuals' aspirations to rule over others
2. to allow these individuals to convert the people to be the enemies of their enemies.
3. people like MK, Mayawati, Jayalalitha and their malice.

Why should a poor peasant have to pay taxes on all the commodities, without which he would have had more purchasing power, disposable income etc...

Why should a peasant subsidize the lives of war mongerers?

Why do we need a government?
Money spent to have a government running is quite exhorbitant.

Does a government represent all the aspirations of all the people?

Why would an Indian/Pakistani die for somebody's cause?

Would anybody in his right mind want to die for the prejudices of a few individuals on either side of the border?

It is just because he cannot afford a lifestyle that has to pay exhorbitant taxes.

The other day, on a NDTV program that purports to motivate the soldiers, Preity Jinta's army officer brother was introducing the soldiers to her. He took enough effort to be careful to introduce the soldiers by Rajputs, Jats, Marathas etc...I believe they are both names of regiments as well castes. What appalled me was, he dismissively pointed towards south indian soldiers and said 'Madrasis'. He wasn't even looking at them. To rub salt, Preity started doling out Telugu dialogues in a very crude way. It was very insulting.

I dunno if Preity and her family had ever wondered why they deserve all the respect and comforts they are enjoying.

What does it mean to be a patriotic soldier?
To be at the receiving end of condescend?
Why do I have to hate a Pakistani? To safeguard Preity and her ilk?

Ref vengatramanan #532

[Harimau,

I am not lauding MK's aggrandizing ways. Would a person of similar lineage could have ever aspired for such a coveted post if it had not been for Periyar's activism?]

How about Mayawati in Uttar Prdesh? Nobody there has heard of Periyar. As Periyar himself once said about a Tamil politician, there isn't even a latrine named for Periyar in all of UP. And Thol. Thirumavalavan of Liberation Leopards of Tamil Nadu has as his idol Ambedkar.

[About being anti-nationalistic, I believe this is quite an anachronism. Excessive patriotism has been the world's problem for long. This trick of making the ordinary people jingoistic and getting them, voluntarily, as the 1 line of defense has been the forte of a miniscule % of populace (read ruling elites). I definitely see validity/logic in Periyar's fears.]

So you would be willing to continue to live under British Rule where all the plum jobs went to Englishmen, and admission to educational institutions was strictly on merit (and according to you this gave an unfair advantage to brahmins) but not in an independent India with merit-based admission.

Can you explain your logic?

Harimau,

I am not lauding MK's aggrandizing ways. Would a person of similar lineage could have ever aspired for such a coveted post if it had not been for Periyar's activism?


About being anti-nationalistic, I believe this is quite an anachronism. Excessive patriotism has been the world's problem for long. This trick of making the ordinary people jingoistic and getting them, voluntarily, as the 1 line of defense has been the forte of a miniscule % of populace (read ruling elites). I definitely see validity/logic in Periyar's fears.

Ref vengatramanan #529

[If you are right about MK's lineage, isn't it an achievement or vindication of Periyar's thoughts, considering his position in the state?]

From a website called countercurrents.org which is laudatory about Periyar:

[Periyar declared that 15 August 1947, when India became politically free, was a day of mourning because the event marked, in his opinion, only a transfer of power to the Brahmin - Bania Combine, whose socio-cultural domination, in addition to economic exploitation, would be worse than the British rule.]

Yes, you read it right. Periyar and his cohorts were against the independence of India. In fact, his followers took out a black-flag procession in Madras on Aug 15, 1947.

These anti-Nationalists are your heroes!

Learn the truth about the DMK, DK, Justice Party, etc.

Ig Mehru had not been castrated by his experience as a schoolboy in England, he would have banned these guys and thrown them into jail.

From that to head of Tamil Nadu's government, from being penniless to owner of a fortune estimated to be $2 billion... yeas, it is a great achievement. Built on the stupidity of Masanamuthus like you.

Ref vengatramanan #528

[Periyar fought to abolish devdasi system. You were the guys who benefitted from the devdasi system.]

Periyar did squat about anything. He couldn't get elected dogcatcher in Tamil Nadu...maybe dogcatcher because he dis have some followers. Dr. Muthulakshmi Reddy fought in the Madras State Legislature to abolish the devadasi system.

Of course, according you Dravidian idiots, history of Tamil Nadu began with Periyar, Annadurai and Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion.

You are on a par with Pakistanis for whom the history of Pakistan began with the invasion of Sindh by Arabs.

Most devadasis were kept as mistresses by rich men who happened to be zamindars who happened to be Golts.

A few descendants of devadasi families were MARRIED by brahmins: MS Subbulakshmi by Sadasivam, Madras Lalithangi (mother of M L Vasanthakumari, famous Carnatic musician) by Ayyaswamy Iyer, and Kamakshi (mother of another famous Carnatic duo Brinda-Muktha) by Soundararaja Iyengar. The first two practically became brahmins and were accepted as such by the community.

You are a clueless idiot who has been so brainwashed by Periyar's Thoughts as carefully selected and propagated by Karunanidhi that there is no hope for you to come out of the fog your brain stem is in.

If you are right about MK's lineage, isn't it an achievement or vindication of Periyar's thoughts, considering his position in the state?

Periyar fought to abolish devdasi system. You were the guys who benefitted from the devdasi system.

Harimau,

I am, indeed, a pachai thamizhan. Pachai/Pasumai/Green refers to young plants. Young plants have green stems and not the trees. Anybody who knows Tamil from his childhood days has to be called a pachai thamizhan.

I am not going to hate your community however you provoke.

Harimau,

(Later, President FA Ahmed (a figurehead), acting on the advice of his council of ministers, declared a state of emergency, and suspended the constitutional articles guaranteeing protection of life and liberty.)

A small digression. When Fakhru signed the Emergency document, the guy was lying sozzled and naked in his bathtub. When he woke up sober he realised what he had done and was heartbroken. The poor fellow udn't live with and soon died of a heart attack.

Btw I am enjoying your shastra-arth with your fellow Southies, us Northies are kind of used to thinking of everyone south of the Vindhyas as homogenous Maddus.

Regards

SRK,

Periyar's mother tongue was Kannada and he was a Naicker (Naidu of present times).

His ancestry could be Telugu too.

Ref SRK #522

[#519 and 520,
FYI, I am a Telugu from Andhra. I asked those questions just out of curiosity and i am not Brahmin too. I am interested in the history of Telugu people in TN, thats why i asked.]

If you are offended by my referring to Telugu people as Goltis, welcome to the world of Harimau where everyone is skewered without regard to race, religion, ethnicity or national origin. I am an Equal Opportunity Abuser.

Read Edgar Thurston's "Castes and Tribes of South India". You will realize that practically it is just the Pallans and Parayans who are true natives of Tamil Nadu and almost everybody else is an immigrant.

Quite a few Goltis came into what is now Tamil Nadu as part of conquering armies of Hoysala and Chalukya kings. Almost all of the big zamindars of Tamil Nadu and poligars (Palayakkarans, those who held fife over wide swathes of the land as rajas) were Goltis, including Kattabomman, a big hero of Tamilians. Tirumalai Nayak and his forebears ruled over the southern kingdom of Madurai.

[I understand that Brahmins in TN suffer due to the reservations. But so much bitterness towards your fellow citizens is not going to do any good for you.]

I abuse the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu and expose their stupidity. Little people like them cannot and have not held me back so I have no bitterness.

Ref vengatramanan #498

[Rajaji became the Chief minister due to a constitutional impropriety in 1952.In the 1952 elections Congress Party was reduced to a minority in the State Assembly and the Communist Party of India led coalition appeared to be in a better position to form the Government.[4] But Governor Sri Prakasa nominated Rajaji to the Legislative Council without the advice of the council of ministers and the selection of a nominated member as Chief Minister and further majority was obtained by luring opposition MLA[5] to join the party and Nehru was furious and wrote to Rajaji that" the one thing we must avoid giving is the impression that we stick to office and we want to keep others out at all costs"[6][7] Rajaji refused to contest a bye election and remained a non elected member."]

Quoting Nehru! That is rich. Here is the man who maneuvered to hand over the government of India to his daughter and the country has been fcuked over by his descendants since 1947 and you are quoting him on democracy!

Here is something for you to chew on.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/dilip_hiro/2007/11/states_of_emergenc y.html

Can there be anything in common between General Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan and the late Indira Gandhi, a democrat who was India's prime minister for 15 years? The intriguing answer is, yes.

A craving for power is the common thread between the two leaders from the Indian sub-continent. It is more than craving; it is an obsession to cling to power at all costs.

There are uncanny parallels between the states of emergency declared by Musharraf on Saturday and Indira Gandhi on June 26 1975. Both of them acted to subvert the verdict of the judiciary, actual or imminent. Both of them raised the spectre of the disintegration of the nation state to justify their draconian decision.

On June 12 1975, an Indian court ruled that Indira Gandhi was guilty of corrupt electoral practices, that her election to parliament was invalid and that she should be barred from contesting elections for six years. Arguing that her Congress party in parliament would need time to choose her successor, she gained a stay order for three weeks.

As she manoeuvred behind the scenes to stay in office, opposition leaders called for nationwide rallies from June 29 onwards to force her to step down. In a pre-dawn swoop on June 26, her government arrested hundreds of prominent opposition and other political leaders. Later, President FA Ahmed (a figurehead), acting on the advice of his council of ministers, declared a state of emergency, and suspended the constitutional articles guaranteeing protection of life and liberty.

Indira Gandhi claimed that "forces of disintegration [are] in full swing". Her government imposed censorship and suspended the habeas corpus. Within six months of the emergency, those jailed without trial exceeded 100,000.

In Pakistan now, the state of emergency declared by Musharraf means the suspension of article nine of the constitution safeguarding life and liberty. Citizens can be arrested without being informed of their offence and denied access to lawyers. The government has shut all private radio and television channels.

In his address to the nation on state-run television, Musharraf justified imposing emergency rule "to preserve the unity of Pakistan".

His high-sounding intent was undermined by no less than the president of the governing Pakistan Muslim League-Qaid-e-Azam (PML-Q), Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain. He told the Guardian that the decision to declare a state of emergency was triggered by fears that the supreme court would rule against Musharraf's election by national and provincial legislatures on October 6 as executive president in a legal appeal.

Hussain disclosed that a "friendly judge" on the supreme court bench passed the information to the government on October 31. "He said the verdict may be unanimous", added Hussain. "The [subsequent] debate was whether to impose emergency before or after [the court ruling]."

How long will the emergency last? "As long as it is necessary," replied Hussain.

This is precisely what happened in June 1975 in India. Nobody knew or could guess the length of the emergency. There was a provision whereby the Indian parliament could extend its five-year term by a year at a time. At Indira Gandhi's behest, it did so, and extended its life beyond 1976.

In January 1977, assured by her elite intelligence agency that her Congress party would win a general election, Indira Gandhi announced a parliamentary poll in March. But it lost heavily, and its defeated candidates included Indira Gandhi.

Thus the parallel continues. Now the timing of the next general election in Pakistan has become the prime subject for speculation by diplomats and analysts alike.

#519 and 520,
FYI, I am a Telugu from Andhra. I asked those questions just out of curiosity and i am not Brahmin too. I am interested in the history of Telugu people in TN, thats why i asked.

I understand that Brahmins in TN suffer due to the reservations. But so much bitterness towards your fellow citizens is not going to do any good for you.

Ref vengatramanan #498

[Harimau,

No doubt, the rest of the population hates you. Afterall you were the guys who tried to introduce 'Kula Kalvi Thittam'. Don't whine.

For the uninitiated in Tamil 'Kula Kalvi Thittam' is a scheme that necessitated people to learn and practice the business their castes had been doing. In a nutshell they wanted
1. A Scavenger's son to learn scavenging and not Physics
2. A Barber's son to learn hair-dressing and not anything else
3. A famer's son to be a farmer

They wanted the rest of the living things to live for the Brahmins and this idea was mooted by Rajaji. BTW Rajaji's mother tongue was Tamil and Periyar's mother tongue was not Tamil.]

Are you sure Rajaji's mother tongue was Tamil and not Sanskrit? After all, he was an Iyengar brahmin.

As to "Kula Kalvi", don't we have Karunanidhi's son Stalin being groomed for Chief Ministership and his illegitimate daughter Kanimozhi (literally, "Sweet Words") already nominated to the Rajya Sabha as an MP and being touted for a ministry in the Central Cabinet? Is "Kula Kalvi" to be reserved only for politicians' children?

What is wrong with education where somebody actually learns a trade? Do you know that so many carpenters, plumbers and other laborers have left for greener pastures elsewhere (sorry for using idiomatic English; Saudi Arabia is certainly not green and certainly not a pasture) that only very few available in Tamil Nadu? Are you afraid unemployed men and women wouldn't be available to attend political rallies if people actually learnt a trade and started making money?

As to education being made available to all so that people can move up, how about showing me one Chettiar who gave up moneylending and went into farming alongside the Pallans and Parayans (SCs) of Tamil Nadu? If everyone moved up, who is going to farm? Is there anyone other than a Palli actually transplanting rice plants in the flooded fields?

By the way, most Chettiars are Golts who have bled the Pallans and Parayans dry through usurious interest.

[Rajaji became the Chief minister due to a constitutional impropriety in 1952.In the 1952 elections Congress Party was reduced to a minority in the State Assembly and the Communist Party of India led coalition appeared to be in a better position to form the Government.[4] But Governor Sri Prakasa nominated Rajaji to the Legislative Council without the advice of the council of ministers and the selection of a nominated member as Chief Minister and further majority was obtained by luring opposition MLA[5] to join the party and Nehru was furious and wrote to Rajaji that" the one thing we must avoid giving is the impression that we stick to office and we want to keep others out at all costs"[6][7] Rajaji refused to contest a bye election and remained a non elected member."]

Can you tell me from which Lok Sabha constituency your Prime MInister, Manmohan Singh the Neutered, got elected?

Since you don't know the answer, here is the information:

Singh lost the election in the Lok Sabha from South Delhi constituency in the 1999 general elections. He is thus the only Indian Prime Minister never to have been an elected member of the Lower House of Parliament. In fact he has not won a direct election. He has been a member of the Rajya Sabha from Assam since 1995. He was re-elected to the Rajya Sabha in 2001 and 2007.

Ref masanamuthu #507

[{Vengatramanan:

Please don't club me with Harimau. I consider that an insult.}

Apologies. that was not my intention.]

Hey, he will lose out on his quota admission to professional education if doesn't have a caste certificate certifying him to be an MBC/OBC/BC.

He will be truly insulted only if you called him SC.

SCs are the niggers of India.

(For those who have only a functioning brain stem and are quick to flag this post for objectionable content, that is a paraphrase of the statement "Women are the niggers of the world" attributed to Yoko Ono and former Beatle John Lennon.)

Ref SRK #511

[Vengatramanan,
What is the mother tongue of Periyar? Is he Marathi or Telugu? What caste group does he belong to? I am just curious to know more about him.]

Do you expect honest answers from a Golti pretending to be a True-Green Tamil who denounces brahmins -- who have lived longer in Tamil Nadu than his forebear -- as invaders? Surely you have more sense than that!

Periyar (Great Man), or Thanthai Periyar (Father Great Man) as he is reverently called by the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu went by the real name of E. V. Ramaswamy Naicker. Naicker is in reality the caste name 'Naik' and he is from a Karnnada family settled in Erode, Tamil Nadu. His mother tongue was Kannada. While he denounced the Ramayana and gave names such as Ravana and Surpanakha to the children of his adoring followers -- these morons actually asked him to name their babies and paid him good money to do so -- he never went to the trouble of getting his own name changed to Ravanaswamy through a court order. This would have caused no confusion to the public because he was known only as EVR to them and as Periyar to his adoring fans of Masanamuthus.

Among his various statements, the only one that seems to be inscribed on pedestals of his statues is "There is no God. He who believes in God is a fool". In every town, at least one statue of Periyar can be seen with this statement.

However, since the Masanamuthus currently are the Guardians of Tamil Nadu, they conveniently ignore the fact that Periyar said, "Tamil is a barbarous language. Tamilians are barbarians". Vengatramanan, being a Golti, is in full agreement with this sentiment but the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu cannot handle the massive cognitive dissonance caused by the acceptance of such a statement and their own rabid support of the Tamil language. So they ignore Periyar's statement about the Tamil language.

Periyar was equally dismissive of Tamil literature. About Kannagi, the heroine of the Tamil epic "Silappathikaram", he asked why that woman stayed with her husband who spent years ignoring her and gallivanting around with the call-girl Madhavi.

He was trying to overturn social mores in India. But since his orations were in Tamil, only the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu understood what he said and have followed him. He opined that true liberation of women would come about only when women were free to change male partners as frequently and as conveniently as changing their clothes. He also said that men and women should be free to have sex whenever, wherever and with whomever they want, much like beasts in nature do. This of course has been misinterpreted by folks genetically incapable of passing aptitude tests -- and by this I mean the SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC categories of people -- to mean that they should have sex with beasts. Not that they needed his encouragement. They have been doing that for millennia instead of trying to find answers to fundamental questions like "What is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius?" or "What is the distance between the Earth and the Moon?" which were discovered by brahmins.

[Also, as far as i know even Karunanidhi's lineage traces back to Telugu speaking families. Is that correct. Someone told me he belongs to either Devdasi or barber caste.]

You are correct about the mother tongue of Karunanidhi being Telugu. He calls himself an Isai Vellalar, which is a gentrification of the caste of melakkarans, those who play the nagaswaram (a shehnai-like instrument). The male children of devadasis were taught nagaswaram and thavil (a percussion instrument) and the daughters of course went into the family business if you know what I mean. The whole business of Devadasis was imported into Tamil Nadu from Goltland, sorry, Andhra Pradesh. The Devadasis were originally primarily Goltis. After several generations, if Karunanidhi (a purely Sanskrit name meaning the Fund of Compassion) can claim to be the Guardian of the Tamil Language, I cannot understand why someone who ACTUALLY did something to save Tamil literature -- such as U. V. Swaminatha Iyer who rescued and published over 120 obscure Tamil literary works including the Great Epics Silappathikaram and Jeevaka Chinthamani about which Karunanidhi and the Masanamuthus practically have orgasms -- cannot be considered a Guardian of the Tamil Language. But then U. V. Swaminatha Iyer was a brahmin and is thus automatically excluded from any such consideration.

Welcome to the Reality Distortion Field called Tamil Nadu.

masadi #510 there is nothing evasive in challenging you to back your claims regarding my views by telling you to cut and paste what I wrote. What is evasive is your writing lengthy, acrimonious posts in response, but without being able to back your claims.

fakirippi: Those were very clever posts. Are you so clever all day long, or only in the morning?

pavocavalry: Thanks.

masadi: So - you lied again when you wrote "You are also a barbarian who supported the US carnage in Iraq". And when challenged to substantiate your accusations by cutting and pasting anything I had written, you failed as before.


Thus proving yourself to be not just a mere habitual liar, but a shameless, habitual liar. Last post to you on this board.

No doubt you will lie again, and I shall then expose you again, on some other board.

Re: # 508 I THINK THIS t ahmed is a Qadiani from LAHORI group.

THE PUNJABIS ARE HOPELESS , SIMPLY HOPELESS

PAVO CAVALRY I LIKED UR FOLLOWING POST ON KHALID BHATTI THAT PUNJABI CHAUVINITS ARTICLE:--

the pashtuns of tribal areas are not what Mr Jinnah the founder of Pakistan called "hopeless Punjabis" .You Punjabis were 90 % of Punjab and the Sikhs were using your Badshahi Mosque of Lahore as a Horse Stable and ypu Punjabis had invented the shuttle cock burqa so that your fair sex are not abducted by the Sikhs at will.And the knight in shining armour General Sir Hugh Gough of Bengal Army of English East India Company saved u Punjabi Muslims from being deflowered by the Sikhs.

You Punjabi Muslims cannot be compared with the indomitable tribals.

You Punjabi Muslim troops fored even at the Holy Kabaa.

Azeem Hussain son of Sir Fazl i Hussian himself a Punjabi thus quoted Jinnah " THE PUNJAB IS A HOPELESS PLACE , I WILL NEVER VISIT IT AGAIN" . You Punjabi Lotus Eaters.

Vengatramanan,
What is the mother tongue of Periyar? Is he Marathi or Telugu? What caste group does he belong to? I am just curious to know more about him.

Also, as far as i know even Karunanidhi's lineage traces back to Telugu speaking families. Is that correct. Someone told me he belongs to either Devdasi or barber caste.

thanks

And by the way this evasive tactic of tahmed to fool the people here is nothing new he has done it before, his so called "I challenge you to show me where I said it", and in every instance I have pointed to his dimwitted posts and articles and he has put his tail between his legs and run away. He repeats this merely so that we can confirm again that he is a spineless immoral fool...

Re: # 478 my friend Indians lost the most important 2 days from 8th to 10th September without attacking.When 11 Cavalry came 1st armoured division also reinforced chawinda.read military history . 11 Cavalry was mistakenly deployed at phillaurah by sahibzada yaqub or some body else.yes , but you read my article on chawinda again or read gurbachan singhs account or major k.c pravals' account.its not my job to teach u military history.

tahmed writes ""You are also a barbarian who supported the US carnage in Iraq". This is another lie. A lie you have stated before, and when challenged failed to prove it by producing anything I wrote!!"

This person tahmed is a totally spineless, immoral liar. He does not even have the balls to own up to what he wrote. What I have written about his support of the US carnage in Iraq is to be found in i) his famous "Open letter to those opposing the Iraq war" in which he is cheerleading for the Iraq war of 2003 , the article he wrote can be found here http://www.chowk.com/articles/6036

and ii) his total lack of condemnation for US actions in Iraq that have caused the death of over a million since that time.

Regarding his pusing the Israeli line, even HP was shocked at his inhumanity back in 2006 and condemned this. You can ask him or do your post search yourself.

Regarding me lying, the best, and only so called "lie" this fool could produce was that I said "I know Zinn well", when earlier I had said "he knows me well" and both by the way are factual true statements.

Vengatramanan:

Please don't club me with Harimau. I consider that an insult.

Apologies. that was not my intention.

masadi #499: you say "point to me one factual lie". I have done this several times in the past when you have lied, and challenged you to substantiate your accusations by cutting and pasting anything I have ever written on chowk the past several years I have been here. Each time you have failed, and instead try to cover up your failure to back your accusations by writing more lies and/or meaningless gibberish.

Let me nevertheless prove you to be a liar again. Your lie is in this very post!! Here it is: "You are also a barbarian who supported the US carnage in Iraq". This is another lie. A lie you have stated before, and when challenged failed to prove it by producing anything I wrote!!

So once again, I challenge you to back your accusation by cutting and pasting anything I ever wrote, including that article on Iraq. If you fail to meet this challenge to produce anything I have written to back this accusation, then you would have proved yourself yet again to be a liar. If, as before, you try to cover-up your inability to back up your lies with anything I have written, then as before you would have proved yourself to be not just a liar, but a shameless liar and hypocrite.

masadi #499: you say "point to me one factual lie". I have done this several times in the past and challenged you to substantiate your accusations by cutting and pasting anything I have ever written on chowk the past several years I have been here. Each time you have failed, and instead try to cover up your failure to back your accusations with more lies.

Let me nevertheless prove you to be a liar again. Your lie is in this very post!! Here it is: "You are also a barbarian who supported the US carnage in Iraq". This is another lie. A lie you have stated before, and when challenged failed to prove it by producing anything I wrote!!

So once again, I challenge you to back your accusation by cutting and pasting anything I ever wrote, including that article on Iraq. If you fail to meet this challenge to produce anything I have written to back this accusation, then you would have proved yourself yet again to be a liar. If, as before, you try to cover-up your inability to back up your lies with anything I have written, then as before you would have proved yourself to be not just a liar, but a shameless liar and hypocrite.

masadi #497: Your post is not even understandable. Which raises the question: Is a masadi post that is gibberish better than a masadi post that is at least written in something resembling a known human language, even if what is being written is hot air and lies? hmmmmm.......

Rape and carnage of the west the officially designated people of your book.

Rape and carnage of your own people all over the world well documented by Islamic historians.

So it all boils to these sick Semitic traditions which are scum political and megalomaniac philosophies masquerading as religion.

And yet the christies have tried to at least say sorry but what about you fkrs.

So there should be no tears for the rest of you. And of course in Iraq Saddam was in love with the Shiites thats why they he was making them beloved of the moon god. If the Muslai's are killing each other due to America more power to the Americans.

Sanatani

Re: # 501

Masadi,

This could be the reason for the slowness:

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/undersea-cable-fault-cripples-internet- in-india-mideast/57773-11.html

In #497 read "why my posts aren't coing " as "why my posts aren't coming

Santani to you complexion might be a joke even though your countrypeople are busy using "fair and lovely" but in the Western dominated world, and their history of rape and carnage of the majority world it has mattered a lot. Regarding the lighter complexion of AAs in the US power structure, that has been forced to incorporate them, this is well documented by William Domhoff in his power structure analysis- he is a well respected academic who has done a lot of empirical work regarding minorities in the US power structure that has been forced to incorporate the few there are post civil rights movement as part of the cooptation process. Get an education fool.

tahmed writes "As I said, while you are a mere joke on chowk, I know quite well individuals like you in Pakistan who love to spread lies about the US in order to pose as "intellectuals".

As usual the fluff man responds with fluff and nothing else. Point to me one factual lie, there are many US peons who hate me here and not one has been able to refute what I write because I try to keep as close to the known facts as possible. Regarding Musharraf, the Pakistan Army is not independant of US influence and the US wanted to strip his uniform for reasons I have clearly stated in earlier posts that is the only reason that you tahmed "converted" from being pro Musharraf to anti Musharraf, while others who are more honest stayed against the dictator and the Pakistan Army's destruction of political and civil institutions from day one. You not only are a hypocrite, you're a third rate mind who is spineless and often puts his tail between his legs to run off from any real discussion when lies cannot rescue you. You are also a barbarian who supported the US carnage in Iraq, pushed the Israeli lie that the Hizb was deliberately going into civilian areas so Israel could be blamed for its unprovoked carnage of civilians in 2006 and were writing nostalgically about the British colonization of India. You are an enemy of the people, and I can guarantee you people here know whose posts are a joke and whose posts are original, independant and not mainstream BS. I have much respect on chowk and your saying that I'm a joke here just added to that respect because everyone here knows what a spineless sellout you are...

Harimau,

No doubt, the rest of the population hates you. Afterall you were the guys who tried to introduce 'Kula Kalvi Thittam'. Don't whine.

For the uninitiated in Tamil 'Kula Kalvi Thittam' is a scheme that necessitated people to learn and practice the business their castes had been doing. In a nutshell they wanted
1. A Scavenger's son to learn scavenging and not Physics
2. A Barber's son to learn hair-dressing and not anything else
3. A famer's son to be a farmer

They wanted the rest of the living things to live for the Brahmins and this idea was mooted by Rajaji. BTW Rajaji's mother tongue was Tamil and Periyar's mother tongue was not Tamil.

"C.Rajagopalachari who had become the Chief Minister of Madras State for the second time between 1952 and 1954, had introduced the scheme of conducting classes in the schools in the forenoon and asking the students to learn the traditional jobs of their parents in the afternoon. At the first stage it was implement in the rural areas of the state. The Dravidian leaders assessed that the scheme was a clever device to keep the Shudra and Panchama castes as illiterates or semi-literates. Their children had just begun to attend school after centuries of denial of educational opportunities. They dubbed C. Rajagopalachari's scheme as Castiest Education Plan (Kula Kalvi Thittam) and began to agitate under Periyar's leadership demanding its withdrawal. As a consequence, the Chief Minister had to resign in March 1954, and Kamaraj assumed office on 14th April. Kamaraj abolished the half-day-teaching scheme, and assured Periyar that his Government would extent educational facilities to people in every nook and corner of the state.

Rajaji became the Chief minister due to a constitutional impropriety in 1952.In the 1952 elections Congress Party was reduced to a minority in the State Assembly and the Communist Party of India led coalition appeared to be in a better position to form the Government.[4] But Governor Sri Prakasa nominated Rajaji to the Legislative Council without the advice of the council of ministers and the selection of a nominated member as Chief Minister and further majority was obtained by luring opposition MLA[5] to join the party and Nehru was furious and wrote to Rajaji that" the one thing we must avoid giving is the impression that we stick to office and we want to keep others out at all costs"[6][7] Rajaji refused to contest a bye election and remained a non elected member."

First let me apologize to those of you who might be wondering why my posts aren't coing (maybe one or two of you), the internet connection I have these days is rather bad. In any case let me respond to tahmed's BS:

Tahmed writes :"....not aware that US forces are there to turn them into the 51st, 52nd, 53rd...58th states!! And no doubt the US cant wait to have Iraq and Afghanistan join the union as the 59th and 60th states!!"

Regardless of the fact that you haven't been able to respond to what I wrote regarding US territorial expansion through military bases which are not "hanging in the air", and about which your dimwitted white man worshipping brain had not even thought about, let me tell you that neo-colonial territorial expansion does not mean that you hand over the same rights that you have been forced to hand to the home country to other territories that you dominate. They get all the benefits and more of territorial expansion through force of arms with none of the cost of making those territories part of their formal state....get it fool?

"Why the hell do you guys demand entry into Shiva temples?"

Harimau,

It is we who built the temples, not your fore fathers. I do not consider you the representative of the collective Brahmin thoughts. You are just a low life like your grand fathers who required permission to sit before us.

I know you would call me a Golti and I don't feel bad to hide what my mother tongue is. There was no concept of Telugu/Tamil/Kannada speaking lands before the demarcation of states. I am as good/bad a Tamilian as anybody else in Tamilnadu. I do not have to desperately identify myself as a Tamilian because I have no intention or belief in using the tag for my advantage. PM me if you would want to come down to my place (a village near Theni/Cumbum) and verify for yourself. Kindly bring Mami with you :). Be assured, I have no intention of naming my kids the way you have predicted, neither we have anyone in the family by those names.

I know you would be angrier at the Telugus because they were vociferous against the Brahmins. FYI my Tamil is far better than your Subramanya Swamy who masquerades as a Tamil.

Just give a thought, for how many years do you think you can successfully turn people on each other using language/territory/ethnicity etc...You seem not to understand that the very same qualities had been identified and turned people's ire against you.

My Dad, in his engineering days, was closer to Kamaraj. Did you ever took time to understand why MGRs, KKSSRs, Arcot Veeraswamys are more loved than your people.

Masanamuthu,

Please don't club me with Harimau. I consider that an insult.

Re: # 475
Thanks for your points about demise of general Zia.
I always wonder if India has mole in some telephone exchange in country.
While Kargil fighting was going on Gen. Musharraf telephoned his deputy and they talked about situation. After some time Indians produced the conservation.
What is your feeling and speculation was it technical spying or human mole ?
Why indians published it ? ( This makes otherside to understand that they have some security beach in communication.
Or it was just handing this voice transmission to Indians by Chineses or Americans ?
Any idea of numbers of death on both sides.
This things never said by any body.

Mr.Tahmed.. You may not respond to Masadi if you want but no point in criticizing him and calling names. If you can not say good do not say any thing. You can study his book when after siome time , you can learn lot and different point of view.
Good morning everybody and great day.

harimau:

[I don't think the Brahmins are "oppressed" by other castes. Brahmins are "ridiculed" but it is vice versa. We can see that from the attitude of folks like Harimau and his equivalents in the other castes.]

Are brahmins the oppressors when Dalits and Thevars fight it out? Explain how. I very much would like to undertand how your brain stem reasons out these things.


stay calm and read what I have written.

Re: # 490

Guru Maharaj,
If you don't know where you can park your promises, or what use I have for them, no one can help you.

So why don't you take your "do-aatisha" dementia (hindutva + punjabi) and f**k off?

Ref masanamuthu #491

[Harimau:
I think you are mistaken. Vengatramanan is probably a Brahmin (and belongs to "you guys" :-) ) and not the "masanamuthus". You should know that. "Vengatramanan" is a 100% Brahmin name, assuming he chose the handle to reflect his name.]

Nope. On top of that, this Vengatramanan is a Golti. But when he manages to produce offspring, either thru his first cousin or a farm animal, you can be sure he will name it Tamil Selvan so that you Masanamuthus will be fooled into thinking that he is a True Son of Tamil Nadu.

Just like all of you guys fell for Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion's comment that Jayalalitha is a Kannadiga and MGR is a Malayalee but conveniently ignore the fact Arcot Veeraswamy and KKSSR Ramachandran (both of them ministers in the Tamil Nadu cabinet) speak in Telugu between themseleves, you will assume that this future Tamil Selvan is a True-Green Tamilian (Pacchai Thamizhan, in your parlance).

Also, the mad rush to adopt Tamil names like Tamil Selvan, Tamil Arasan, Tamil Mani, etc., has left out only Tamil @rsehole as the sole available name so that one's child could stand out among the 15 Tamil Selvans in a class. But the True-Green Tamilians have decided to adopt Sanskrit names in their bid to out-brahmin the brahmins. For instance, Tamil Nadu's election commissioner is named Chandrasekaran... when his malfeasance in conducting local elections was discussed, Karunanidhi said that he was being unfairly maligned because he is an MBC. However, the comments about his malfeasance in office came from a bench of the Madras High Court which ordered re-poll for 99 out of 156 councilor's positions. That is right, not in 99 polling booths but for 99 representatives! Karunanidhi couldn't blame the comment on the brahmins because the judge who made that comment was a Muslim.

[I don't think the Brahmins are "oppressed" by other castes. Brahmins are "ridiculed" but it is vice versa. We can see that from the attitude of folks like Harimau and his equivalents in the other castes.]

Are brahmins the oppressors when Dalits and Thevars fight it out? Explain how. I very much would like to undertand how your brain stem reasons out these things.

Consider that 98% of the villages in Tamil Nadu do not have a brahmin presence. Tell us how we are the oppressors in those 98% villages.

This board is comical.

There are multiple strands of discussion (or rather abuses) going on.

Why the hell do you guys demand entry into Shiva temples? Why can't you be happy worshipping Small-Pox and that fat film actress Khushbhoo (a Muslima at that)?

Harimau:
I think you are mistaken. Vengatramanan is probably a Brahmin (and belongs to "you guys" :-) ) and not the "masanamuthus". You should know that. "Vengatramanan" is a 100% Brahmin name, assuming he chose the handle to reflect his name.

Sanatani:
I don't think the Brahmins are "oppressed" by other castes. Brahmins are "ridiculed" but it is vice versa. We can see that from the attitude of folks like Harimau and his equivalents in the other castes.

Re: # 485

Has la Muhajira has le.

He who laughs last laughs loudest.

I promise you it will be so funny as to be sick.

Sanatani

Ref vengatramanan #447

["During his childhood, Mendel worked as a gardener, studied beekeeping, and as a young man attended the Philosophical Institute in Olomouc"]

And I guess you are explaining your having sex with farm animals as an attempt to produce cross-species life forms!

["In school, the young Edison's mind often wandered, and his teacher, the Reverend Engle, was overheard calling him "addled." This ended Edison's three months of official schooling. His mother then home schooled him.]

Edison has a couple of thousand patents. What do the Masanamuthus have?

[Perhaps, you should abstain seeing a 'lingam' for some time. The black lingams clearly have had a profound effect on your gene pool and hence your jealousy towards goats or the proclivity to become one.]

Why the hell do you guys demand entry into Shiva temples? Why can't you be happy worshipping Small-Pox and that fat film actress Khushbhoo (a Muslima at that)?

You guys have to figure out what you want to do: imitate Brahmins while cursing them or revert back to your sexual freedom days. The first has inherent contradictions that your already confused mind cannot handle. The second is the right way forward for True Tamilians who Did Not Come in through the Khyber Pass (as Karunanidhi refers to brahmins).

Jesus frikking Christ...

I just watched a rerun of of Frontline from October 2006 about the return of the taliban.

Basically, the paki army attcked the talipakis led by nek mohd and got their butts handed to them on a plate. Then mush made a deal with them...like a person being robbed making a deal to give up his wallet and his watch and his pants...you get the idea...The paki army sent some bigshot general to sign the peace deal. He embraced the jihadi guys and said to them, and I paraphrase, there were no afghani pilots on 9/11 so why did america attack afghanistan...then he said the paki army had to fight the jihadis before because if they didn't, the americans would have entered the tribal areas..yup...these are the deferenders of pureland..no wonder they left the bodies behind in kargil and denied their soldiers had died..

and did I mention: the paki army paid the taliban for the peace deal...

the segment began with the history of how the ISI and paki army, after the US invasion post 9/11, let the jihadis into pakiland by telling them to go south through south waziristan...they interviewed a paki dude on this.

wonder what prophet tahmed the self-righteous has to say about this...

if the talipakis are now killing pakis wholesale, fantastic I say...you deserve every bit of it...

Ref vengatramanan #435

["Rather than completing high school, Albert decided to apply directly to the ETH Zurich, the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, Switzerland. Without a school certificate, he was required to take an entrance examination, which he did not pass."]

So, how many Nobel Prizes have the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu gotten after failing aptitude tests or entrance exams for professional studies?

Zeo, Zilch. Nada.

Einstein failing an entrance exam does not equate to you failing an entrance exam. Nor does that make you Einstein.

Ref vengatramanan #435

[Harimau,

ROTE learning:- Your forte]

Experimentation to produce cross-species life forms through sexual reproduction: your specialty.

Re: # 482 "Ingrate bastuuuurds that is Hindustani Mussalmans and Stupidity thy name is Punjabi Muslims".

Guru Sanatana ji:

Please don't be angry. I am am weak of heart and might start peeing in my bed.

... And spare the Punjabi muslims please. The UP walas made them do it. It was not their fault.

saaley kameenay Mush ki aulad ...

Re: # 407

Bulleya Sahib,

Let us ask you one question where are any of the great empires of today?

I shall anwer it nowhere.

What is this unity you talk about? Why are you thinking of unity in terms of fixed nation states and boundaries. The first unity is the unity of the people.

When a decorated hero of the Indian Army a Dogra from Jammu can fall at the feet of a Manipuri lady and beg forgiveness for the action of a Jawan in raping one of her kind that is the unity of the people one talks about.

The people of Bharatvarsh were always one till the elements of Separatism were introduced first by Islam and then by Christianity. What was however needed was a man like the Crusader pope to have affected political unity to fight the barbarians at the gate and that did not happen and we lost the chunks of the Matrabhumi that became Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Do you not get it what separates us is Islam.

You need more proofs of our people's essential unity.

When the Marathas lost the 3rd battle of Panipat in 1761 their women from the camp ran helter skelter to save their honour. At that point the Jat inhabitants of the Punjab, Haryana and Braj rallied to save the honours of the women they perceived as sisters and at a great cost to their lives saved a majority of them. Abdali had abducted almost 30,000 women amajoirty of them Maratha and from Braj. Incensed at this the Khalsa in tolas and jathas showed incredible (actually suicidal bravery) in attacking the returning army and the baggage trains while one group would engage the enemy and mostly die fighting the other would rescue the women. Thus they managed to save almost 75% of the waelth and over 90% of the women Abdali was carrying. Remember this is the Sikhs from the West Punjab fighting and dying for their sisters of near and distant provinces.

We could also quote the partition of India.

So get your facts right we have been one nation from time immemorial just that we allowed these heterogenities to come into our nations fabric. InshaKrishna we shall one day remove them and be back to where we started.

Sanatani

Masadi Sahib,

If Churchill had agreed to Hitlers proposals after the occupation of France then there would have been no Soviet Union.

And a good thing it would have been.

Sanatani

Re: # 354 Viqarm

Abe o madarchoo***d read the following account, before you call names to Anandpal and Jaypal.

ARAB FAILURE IN SINDH, KABUL AND ZABUL

In Chapter I of his book, Dr. Misra gives dates as well as details regarding the rapid conquests made by the armies of Islam after the death of its prophet in AD 632. The Byzantine provinces of Palestine and Syria fell to them after a six month?s campaign in AD 636-637. Next came the turn of the Sassanid empire of Persia which included Iraq, Iran, and Khorasan. The Persians were defeated decisively in AD 637, and their entire empire was overrun in the next few years. ?By A.D. 643 the boundaries of the Caliphate touched the frontiers of India.?1 The Turkish speaking territories of Inner Mongolia, Bukhara, Tashkand, and Samarkand, etc. were annexed by AD 650. Meanwhile, in the west, the Byzantine province of Egypt had fallen in AD 640-641. The Arab armies marched over North Africa till they reached the Atlantic and crossed over into Spain in AD 709.


These were not mere territorial conquests. Dr. Misra observes: ?Astonishing as these victories of Islamic armies were, equally amazing was the ease and rapidity with which people of different creeds and races were assimilated within the Islamic fold. Syrians, Persians, Berbers, Turks and others - all were rapidly Islamised and their language and culture Arabicised.?2 He also quotes an appropriate passage of the Quran which had inspired the Arabs to decimate and denationalise those who were defeated by them: ?Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem till they repeat and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity.?3


The same Islamic armies, however, had to struggle for 69 long years to make their first effective breach in the borders of India. In the next three centuries, they pushed forward in several provinces of Northern and Western India. But at the end of it all, India was far from being conquered militarily or assimilated culturally. The Arab invasion of India ended in a more or less total failure. Dr. Misra tells the full story in the next two chapters of his book.


ARAB FAILURE IN SINDH


The Arab invasion of Sindh started soon after their first two naval expeditions against Thana on the coast of Maharashtra and Broach on the coast of Gujarat, had been repulsed in the reign of Caliph Umar (AD 634-644). The expedition against Debal in Sindh met the same fate ?The leader of the Arab army, Mughairah, was defeated and killed.?4 Umar decided to send another army by land against Makran which was at that time a part of the kingdom of Sindh. But he was advised by the governor of Iraq that ?he should think no more of Hind?.5 The next Caliph, Usman (AD 646-656), followed the same advice and refrained from sending any expedition against Sindh, either by land or by sea. The fourth Caliph, Ali (AD 656-661), sent an expedition by land in AD 660. But the leader of this expedition and ?those who were with him, saving a few, were slain in the land of Kikan in the year AH 42 (AD 662)?. Thus the four ?pious? Caliphs of Islam died without hearing the news of a victory over ?Sindh or Hind?.


Muawiyah, the succeeding Caliph (AD 661-680), sent as many as six expeditions by land. All of them were repulsed with great slaughter except the last one which succeeded in occupying Makran in AD 680. For the next 28 years, the Arabs did not dare send another army against Sindh. The next expedition was despatched to take Debal in AD 708. Its two successive commanders, Ubaidullah and Budail, were killed and the Arab army was routed. When Hajjaj, the governor of Iraq, asked the Caliph for permission to send another expedition, the Caliph wrote back: ?This affair will be a source of great anxiety and so we must put it off, for every time an army goes, [vast] numbers of Mussalmans are killed. So think no more of such a design.?6


But Hajjaj was a very tenacious imperialist. He spent the next four years in equipping an army more formidable than any which had so far been sent against Sindh. While sending off his nephew as well as son-in-law, Muhammad bin Qasim, with this army in AD 712, Hajjaj said: ?I swear by Allah that I am determined to spend the whole wealth of Iraq, that is in my possession, on this expedition.?7 Muhammad was successful in overcoming the fierce resistance he met at every step in his progress through Sindh. By AD 713 he had occupied the whole of this province as well as Multan. He was helped to a certain extent by the treachery of some merchants and local governors at a few places. But as soon as he was recalled in AD 714, ?the people of India rebelled, and threw off their yoke, and the country from Debalpur to the Salt Sea only remained under the dominions of the Khalifa.?8 This was only a narrow coastal strip.


Subsequently, the Islamic armies reconquered Sindh, and advanced through Rajputana upto Ujjain in the east and Broach in the south. ?But the success of the Arab armies was short-lived. Their advance to the south was signally checked by the Chalukya ruler of Lat (S. Gujarat), Pulakesin Avani-Janasraya. The Navasari inscription (A.D. 738) records that Pulakesin defeated a Tajika (Arab) army which had defeated the kingdoms of Sindhu, Cutch, Saurashtra, Cavotaka, Maurya and Gurjara and advanced as far south as Navasari where this prince was ruling at this time. The prince?s heroic victory earned him the titles of ?solid Pillar of Dakshinapatha (Dakshinapatha-sadhata) and the Repeller of the Unrepellable (Anivarttaka-nivartayi)?. The Gwalior inscription of the Gurjara-Pratihar King, Bhoja I, tells us that Nagabhatta I, the founder of the family who ruled in Avanti (Malwa) around A.D. 725, ?defeated the army of a powerful Mlechha ruler who invaded his dominions?.9 The Gurjara-Pratiharas were known to the Arab historians as ?kings of Jurz?. Referring to one of these kings, an Arab historian wrote that ?Among the princes of India there is no greater foe of the Mohammaden faith than he?.?10


The Arabs also made advances to the north of Sindh into the Punjab and towards Kashmir. Here they were blocked and driven back by Lalitaditya Muktapida (AD 724-760) of Kashmir. He was in alliance with Yasovarman of Central India. ?He is said to have ordered the Turushkas to shave off half of their heads as a symbol of their submission.? Dr. Misra cites Biladhuri who wrote that ?the Mussalmans retired from several parts of India and left some of their positions, nor have they upto the present advanced so far as in days gone by?.11 And he mourned, ?The people of India returned to idolatry with the exception of the inhabitants of Qasbah. A place of refuge to which the Moslems might flee was not to be found, so he [Arab governor] built on the further side of the lake, where it borders on al-Hind, a city which he named at-Mahfuzah [the protected] establishing it as a place of refuge for them, where they should be secure and making it a capital.?12


Arab travellers to India of the 10th century ?all speak of only two independent Arab principalities with Multan and Mansurah as their capitals?. The Pratihara kings waged constant war ?against the Arab prince of Multan, and with the Mussalmans, his subjects on the frontier?. Multan would have been lost by the Arabs but for a Hindu temple. Dr. Misra quotes Al-Istakhri who wrote about AD 951 that in Multan ?there is an idol held in great veneration by the Hindus and every year people from distant parts undertake pilgrimages to it? When the Indians make war upon them and endeavour to seize the idol, the inhabitants [Arabs] bring it out pretending that they will break it and burn it. Upon this the Indians retire, otherwise they would destroy Multan.? Finally, he observes: ?Thus after three centuries of unremitting effort, we find the Arab dominion in India limited to two petty states of Multan and Mansurah. And here, too, they could exist only after renouncing their iconoclastic zeal and utilizing the idols for their own political ends. It is a very strange sight to see them seeking shelter behind the very budds, they came here to destroy.?13


It has to be kept in mind all along that the Arab empire in this period was the mightiest power on earth. Compared to this monolithic and highly militarised giant, the Hindu principalities of Sindh and other border areas were no better than pygmies. Yet the pygmies had the last laugh at the end of the 10th century when the Islamised Turks took over from the Arabs the Islamic crusade against ?Sind and Hind?. It was the old story of Alexander and the small republics of the Punjab and Sindh, all over again.


INSIDE STORY OF ARAB ?LIBERALISM?


Dr. Misra concludes his chapter on Sindh with a very meaningful note. ?From a political or missionary point of view,? he writes, ?the Arab conquest of Sindh was certainly a minor affair. The Arab conquest of other countries, outside India, had been followed by wholesale conversions and supplanting of local institutions by Islamic ones? The Islamic law had divided unbelievers into two classes, viz., the People of the Book (Ahl-i-Kitãb), the possessors of Scriptures - the Jews and the Christians - and the idolaters. The former were not to be lawfully molested in any way so long as they accepted the rule of the conquerors and paid the Jezia. But for the idolaters, the choice was between Islam and death. In Central Asia, the idolaters had been rooted out. But this experiment failed in Sindh as Islam was confronted with a faith which, though idolatrous, defied death and looked at life in this world as one link in the eternal chain of births and deaths. The experiment was only tried at Debal where the ?temples were demolished and mosques founded; a general massacre endured for three days, prisoners were taken captive; plunder was amassed?. Thus under compulsion of events, the stem code of Islam was relaxed, the Hindus were allowed to rebuild their temples and perform their worship and the three per cent which had been allowed to the priests under the former government was not discontinued.?14


Many historians, particularly the apologists for Islam, have presented this expediency as a proof of Islamic liberalism under the early Arabs. They have contrasted this Arab ?liberalism? with the ?fanaticism? of the Turks who joined the fold of Islam at a later stage. Dr. Misra does not make this mistake. He has laid bare the true motivation at the back of this ?liberalism?, and thus restored the perspective on the plasticity of Islamic polity in the over-all framework of the fundamental Islamic law regarding treatment of non-believers. The mullahs and sufis of Islam might have howled over this dilution of the dogma. But the military and political leaders always knew when and where to make a compromise in the interests of self-preservation, and till the next stage of aggrandisement arrived in the vicissitudes of war. Lenin has also exhorted the party to know exactly when to practise tactics of retreat. Islam, after all, is Communism plus Allah, as Allami Iqbal has observed so aptly.


HEROIC DEFENCE OF KABUL AND ZABUL


The same story was repeated by the Hindu kingdoms of Kabul (Kapisa) and Zabul (Jabal) which lay to the north-west of Sindh, and which the Islamic armies had started attacking soon after they annexed Khorasan in AD 643. It was in AD 650 that the first Islamic army penetrated deep into Zabul by way of Seistan, which at that time was a part of India territorially as well as culturally. The struggle was grim and prolonged. The Islamic army suffered heavy losses. In the final round, the invader was defeated and driven out.


Another attack followed in AD 653. The Arab general, Abdul Rahman, was able to conquer Zabul and levy tribute from Kabul. The king of Kabul, however, proved desultory in paying regularly what the Arabs thought to be their due. Finally, another Arab general, Yazid ibn Ziyad who had been the governor of Seistan for some time, attempted retribution in AD 683. He was killed by the Hindus, and his army was put to flight with great slaughter. The Arabs lost Seistan also, and had to pay 5,00,000 dirhams to get one of their generals, Abu Ubaida, released.


But the Arabs, inspired as they were by an imperialist ideology, did not give up. They recovered Seistan some time before AD 692. Its new governor, Abdullah, invaded Kabul. The Hindus trapped the Arab army in the mountain passes after allowing it to advance unopposed for some distance. Abdullah agreed to cease hostilities, and the king of Kabul agreed to renew payment of an annual tribute. But the treaty was denounced by the Caliph who dismissed Abdullah. The war against Kabul was renewed in AD 695 when Hajjaj became the governor of Iraq. He sent an army under Ubaidullah, the new governor of Seistan. Ubaidullah was defeated and forced to retreat after leaving his three sons as hostages and promising that ?he shall not fight as long as he was governor?.15 Once again, the treaty was denounced by the Caliph, and another general, Shuraih, tried to advance upon Kabul. He was killed by the Hindus, and his army suffered huge losses as it retreated through the desert of Bust. Poor Ubaidullah died of grief. That was the third round won by the Hindu kingdom of Kabul.


In the next round, Hajjaj commissioned Abdul Rahman once again. He made some conquests but could not consolidate his hold. Hajjaj threatened to supersede him. Abdul Rahman revolted and entered into a treaty with the Hindu king to ?carry arms against his master?.16 The treaty did not work, and Abdul Rahman committed suicide. The Hindu king, however, continued the war. Masudi, the Arab historian, ?makes mention of a prince in the valley of the Indus who after having subjugated Eastern Persia, advanced to the bank of the Tigris and Euphrates?.17 Hajjaj had to make peace according to which the Hindu king was entitled to keep his kingdom in exchange for an annual tribute. The Hindu king, however, stopped payment in the reign of Caliph Sulayman (AD 715-717). Some attempts to force him into submission were made in the reign of Caliph Al-Mansur (AD 745-775). But they met with only partial success, and we find the Hindus ruling over Kabul and Zabul in the year AD 867. The Arabs had failed once again to conquer finally another small Hindu principality, in spite of their being the mightiest power on earth. The struggle had lasted for more than two hundred years.


The kingdom of Kabul suffered a temporary eclipse in AD 870 but not on account of the Arabs, nor as a result of a clash of arms. The Turkish adventurer, Yaqub bin Layth, ?who started his career as a robber in Seistan and later on founded the Saffarid dynasty of Persia?, sent a message to the king of Kabul that he wanted to come and pay his homage. The king was deceived into welcoming Yaqub and a band of the latter?s armed followers in the court at Kabul. Yaqub ?bowed his head as if to do homage but he raised the lance and thrust it into the back of Rusal so that he died on the spot?. A Turkish army then invaded the Hindu kingdoms of both Kabul and Zabul. The king of Zabul was killed in the battle, and the population was converted to Islam by force. That was a permanent loss to India. But the succeeding Hindu king of Kabul who had meanwhile transferred his capital to Udbhandapur on the Indus, recovered Kabul after the Saffarid dynasty declined. Masudi who visited the Indus Valley in AD 915 ?designates the prince who ruled at Kabul by the same title as he held when the Arabs penetrated for the first time into this region?.18


The Hindus lost Kabul for good only in the closing decade of the 10th century. In AD 963 Alaptigin, a Turkish slave of the succeeding Samanid dynasty, had been able to establish an independent Muslim principality in Kabul with his seat at Ghazni. It was his general and successor, Subuktigin, who conquered Kabul after a struggle spread over two decades. The Hindus under king Jayapala of Udbhandapur made a bold bid to recapture Kabul in AD 986-987. A confederate Hindu army to which the Rajas of Delhi, Ajmer, Kalinjar and Kanauj has contributed troops and money, advanced into the heartland of the Islamic kingdom of Ghazni. ?According to Utbi, the battle lasted several days and the warriors of Subuktigin, including prince Mahmood, were ?reduced to despair.? But a snow-storm and rains upset the plans of Jayapala who opened negotiations for peace. He sent the following message to Subuktigin: ?You have heard and know the nobleness of Indians - they fear not death or destruction? In affairs of honour and renown we would place ourselves upon the fire like roast meat, and upon the dagger like the sunrays.??19 But the peace thus concluded proved temporary. The Muslims resumed the offensive and the Hindus were defeated and driven out of Kabul. Dr. Mishra concludes with the comment that Jayapala ?was perhaps the last Indian ruler to show such spirit of aggression, so sadly lacking in later Rajput kings?.


Aur harami yeh baat such hai ki the killings of 1947 in the Punjab started when the Aligarhis started their insidous Pak movement propaganda (how pigs were being slaughtered in mosques in UP under Congress's Ram Rajya) and the same would happen in the Punjab as well. Ungrateful b**strds forgetting that the Hindus had purchased both the Fatehpuri and Jama Masjids of Delhi from the Brits and gifted them to the Delhi Muslims as a token of their goodwill to Muslims.

Ingrate bastuuuurds that is Hindustani Mussalmans and Stupidity thy name is Punjabi Muslims. Even though the moon god has not specified any penalty for the same they should start thinking and not get swayed by the ideologues who come from UP either Barelvis or Deobandis.

One thing is true these guys have it coming on both sides of the border. Keep the pot boiling the result will be very sweet for us.

Sanatani

vengatramanan, it will. One can already see movement toward that goal.

Re: # 467

Its time for a more inclusive growth. Brahmins are also sons of the soil. Mutual distrust is quite high. This has to go off.

#477 sattar: very well said. thanks.

pavocavalry: Many thanks for correcting my wrong impression - so, the events as i understand them are:

Date: Sept 8 1965
Location: Kashmir. 11 Cav advances to Jaurian
Location: Chawinda. 25 Cav blocks Indian 1 armored div

Date: Sept 9 1965
11 Cav ordered to move to Chawinda

Date Sept 11 1965 (This is my assumption, based on my recalling being told that it took a couple of days for the regiment to move from Jaurian and take up defensive position at Chawinda (or was it nearby Phillaurah?)

11 Cav faces 1 Armored Div. Right flank of 11 Cav is attacked by indian regiment, knocks out some indian tanks causing indian regiment of 1 armored div to back off. A second Indian regiment advances towards the left flank of 11 cav, with repeat of above and indian regiment backing off. Next, Indian artillery knocks out regiment HQ, killing/wounding regimental command. Indian regiments then move forward and overrun 11 Cav defenses.

After this I run into a blank - What happened the rest of the day? What caused the Indian armored div from advancing further? What happened in this sector from September 11 through September 22? Is there any marker at Phillaurah where the 11 Cav was positioned?

I would be much obliged for any light you could throw on the above. Also, have you considered contributing to wikipedia on the 1965 war?

tahmed (#465),

A general comment: ”Facts” and ”logic” can de dangerous if applied beyond the proper context. It is one thing to know facts … but quite another to understand how facts relate to each other, if at all. One may connect dots in several ways and each way brings to view a different picture. So knowing facts alone, without understanding the underlying context, is not enough.

For example, fact is that I wore blue socks today and I did not get hit by a truck. Draw your own conclusions.

Re: # 475 Major Sahib,
What you have said in the last two posts makes sense to me.

I raised the point because Zee Sahib's last post suggests that the same team was behind both Zia's and BB's assasination.

Which seems to lend support to the theory that the Americans (with support of elements in the Pak armed forces) did BB in.

After all the pavement pounding she has been doing in Washington these past few years, is that how Uncle Sam wanted to thank her?

Re: # 474 shias could not have done it alone.i understand that one or two technicians were shias.

but just note what i heard from an airforce officer who was stationed in multan airbase at that time.

the rear cargo door of that C 130 was stolen from Multan airbase.This door is many tons in weight.

Re: # 473 I was in Multan and my regiment was responsible for that accursed man's lunch.

To me it appears that it was an operation launched by Americans with active support of elements in paki army and air force.however the soviet involvement cannot be ruled out at least in logistics.

It was thought in many quarters in american policy making circles that zia's adventurism had to be curtailed.he had already made a fool of americans by diverting a part of US aid to dumps which were later used to support the kashmir mujahids.

Pavo, Zee Sahib:

For the benefit of simpletons like me, who was the team behind Zia's assasination?

Lat I heard it was the Russian/American/MOssad/Shia brigade, but this latest shosha seems to suggest it was the ISI?

Again, the question I ask myself is, why? What did ISI have to gain by getting rid of Zia, Akhtar AbdurRahman, and Mr. Raphael?

Re: # 465 Thanks for the positive remarks about Chawinda.

Please insert a correction:--

25 Cavalry saved the day on 8th September when 11 Cavalry was advancing towards Jaurian.

11 Cavalry was ordered to Chawinda after 9th.

When 11 Cavalry did reach Chawinda the Indians had already because of their own very stupid brigadier KK Singh Sparrow Commander 1st Armoured Brigade lost the opportunity to outflank 25 Cavalry.

If KK Singh had any resolution and generalship Chawinda was a straight Pakistani failure.

Interestingly 25 Cavalry also acted thinking that they were not opposed by the Indian armoured division.

The Pakistani brigade commander Abdul Ali Malik had lost his nerve and as per Shaukat Riza Pakistan's official historian just asked Lt Col Nisar Commanding Officer 25 Cavalry ..."Nisar Do Something".

In 5 Minutes over Islamabad I had theorised Islamabad as a good nuclear target because its physically impossible to target Pakistan's nuclear assets.Islamabad on the other hand has all the good things that a target should have.

Mr Feroz K

You say :---

Secondly; Hitler made a mess of the operational schedules of the German Army. When the Germans were on the outskirts of Moscow, Hitler ordered that the capture of the Baku oil fields was the primary target and not Moscow and then changed his mind again and said Moscow was the prime target. In the process, the German advance was fragmented as the Wehrmacht was send on a goose chase and the Red Army had the opportunity to bring up reinforcements from the east; and by the time the Germans did get close to Moscow, again, the weather had turned against them and first snow had started to fall - making the roads impassable for the armor and the Soviets counter-attacked the Germans."


Here was gone quite wrong.

When the Germans captured Smolensk on the central highway to Moscow.They were supposed to go straight for Moscow.At this stage Hitler instead decide to encircle Kiev in the South.Thats why the Germans were delayed for 8