It's ME on Both Sides!

Asra
The similiar idea I expressed in my poetry that I wrote many years back in Urdu when i first read 'Taboo'( a research on 'heera mundi's life') And I just translated that in english after getting inspiration from a dialogue in a movie "Laga chunri mein daag". Your nice comparative narration endorsed the same idea. Every woman undestands it but because of conditioning of mind through ages they teach the same lessons of submissions to their young ones. With exceptions of few we generally get the security, the authority and identity by walking into the matrimony.
Nikhat Riaz

I wonder who annointed Zeemax as the head nigga in charge of Chowk. Ahmedmadani and Zeemax need to be frog-marched to Gitmo, that's where these ragheads belong.

Bibi authoress,

If you want to write explicit stories to make a point, check out Urstruly's on this site such as "That Whore" and "Secret Passages". You might learn some things.

http://www.chowk.com/articles/7278

http://www.chowk.com/articles/8 450

#41 Posted by asranadeem,

If you spit at the entire womanhood and it's dignity, you will be only spitting at your own face. You're no different than Asra Nomani.

I think you should propagate her manifesto openly without hiding behind inane stories of sexual innuendo while trying to sound like Saadat Hasan Manto.

Re: # 43
I read your story as is and found it absorbing. However, your reply in #43 begs a number of questions (since you brought it up), mind I still llike the story.

(a)What is the true value of the institution of marriage?
(b)Havent wemin always been objectified - you need to be attracted to them (at some level to procreate - else you leave things to you imagination and go about the business blindly (as our friend zeemax sayeth - I will not go into it - he is a chinese falsafa man) The same holds wemin as well. (ah yes, nb is the right and correct person to have a chat about this).

vengatramanan: No one likes being objectified or being treated as commodities. People who invite such behavior are usually the ones going out of their way to be people they are not, they might be following some crazy media hype or literary theory or social movement gone wrong.

Re: # 41 Asranadeem, give them a break. Both are trying to make a pass at you - one is trying to relive his teeange years(i.e zeemax mian), the other is trying to relive the days he spent in cyprus winking at the scantily clad girls on the beaches.

This is chowk's way of greeting a "woman"!

BTW a great piece of fiction...hope you write many more of these

nb:

There are a couple of things that this article highlights, some of them would include:
-The similarities between the lives of two women who belong to two very different sets of the society. Their raw emotions, life patterns, ambitions and expectations are the same.
-The fact that the institution of marriage has lost its true value and come down to practices which are equal to prostitution
-Objectification of women in our society.
-Social taboos
ETC.

snoresahib: Here you go:

-Heera Mandi = The red light area of Lahore, Shahi Muhala, is also called Heera Mandi by the locals. This translates to diamond market.
-Ladoo = A desi sweet.
-Kotha = A prostitutes home.
-Dalal = Pimp.
-Baray Admi = Rich men
-Molvi Sahib = A religious teacher.
-Lachay = Cotton Candy
-Duppatta = Scarf or veil
-Tawaif = A prostitute who also is a dancer
-Kanjari = Hooker
-Aadab-e-mehfil = Mannerism
-Phohar = Unskilled in domestic tasks
-Shareef = Honorable

zeemax and ahmedmadani: I don't believe in throwing stones in a puddle and splashing filth on myself or picking fights on baseless argumentations. Enjoy your ignorance. PEACE.

#38 Posted by MuntajibKhan on January 27, 2008 7:07:24 pm
"The birth of a female child is usually unwelcome one in the subcontinent. Parents favor the male child over the female one, and the girls usually have an inferiority complex due to this factor and are unable to achieve academic successes"

not in my case. a male child for me would have been unwelcome. thank goodness i have a daughter.

Asra that was sublime and brilliant...
I am out of words and short of expression to describe the piece you have written...
Women in our society are treaed like that....
wth subtle differences in all sections of the society....
in heera mandi or in that cursed middle class right wing environment...
The way you have "contrasted" the two apprently different but underneath startingly same set of affairs is astounding...
A very moving piece
simply brilliant

Asra,
It is sad and unfortunate that you had to go through what you had to go through. No one can change one thing in his life: his parents. It is sad that many parents go for sex determination tests and even feticide, if the fetus is a female one. The birth of a female child is usually unwelcome one in the subcontinent. Parents favor the male child over the female one, and the girls usually have an inferiority complex due to this factor and are unable to achieve academic successes. Even if they perform well in academics, most do not take jobs, preferring marital responsibilities over a paid job. Your description about events linked with woman’s physiology was very accurate, subtle and very daring and audacious. Your article was glut in substance, and very thoughtfully written and smacks of great feminine fortitude. May the almighty give you the courage to deal with disappointments and tragic events of the yore. Keep posting the good articles of yours. Kudos.

However, I'm still interested in "It's ME on Both Sides!"

What sides are these pray I ask?

Philo,

Human nature remains constant and immutable. you see...even the psychology of men(the desire to dominate) itself is the evidence of human nature...where have men got it from...off course by nature...are men something from outside nature?

Very interesting. No, men are as much part of nature as are women ... and Nature does not create anything out of a vacuum. This man/woman intrinsic nature which is different from the other is certainly an essential ingredient in the scheme of things, in the greater universe.

Philosopher mian your "biological determinism" school was popular with the racists of old but nothing "social" since there is so much variation in the social can be linked to the "natural"- biological in which there is little to no variation- Variation in human societies have been more a product of their economic relationships and how they have secured their physical needs rather than anything "natural or biological". The only way in which this unnatural variation that is producing so much trouble for humanity can be set aright is by aligning yourself with the "natural" and no unifying theory of everything has yet been discovered for you to be able to claim victory in the nature nurture debate. If everything is "natural and biological" then what is the purpose behind the Quran of trying to fix SOCIAL relationships to bring them more in tune with the just order of the wider universe?

Asra:

Don't feel bad, Zeemax is under your spell. Here's what he said:

"I wonder where this Asra Nomani aka Asra Nadeem has disappeared? Doesn't like opposition I guess .. oh the whimperer."

And here is what he meant:

"Ooh girl you awakened my teenage fantasies. I sprayed my shorts when I first read your article. Give me your number so I can talk dirty to you. Just hope my wife and kids don't know how aroused I am!"

The funniest interact of January

"#12 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 25, 2008 6:12:37 pm
I did not even read it, just key words alarmed me. "

Asra:

For the benefit of innocent American men such as myself, could you please translate the Hindi words in your article, such as : randi, dalaal, etc? Looking forward with lots of anticipation. Thanks!

#29 Posted by philosopher,

Philo, this is an excellent analysis. You just cleared many cobwebs, indeed even if I do say so, in my own mind.

Thanks.

zee, asra, neembu..everbody read this gem by miss gita roy

http://www.chowk.com/articles/10698

Re: # 21

zee

Right on the spot...you can never deny the role of physiological and biological diffrences in determining the social role of mene and women....people who think that gender is socialy determined or say that..

sex is given by nature and gender is the producrt of society...miss a damn big point that society itself is the menifestation of human nature. society is not something outside the realm of nature...even from a ''naturalistic'' and 'materialistic' approach that these ''einstiens' hold so dear, all social and psychological facters are ultimately determined by the natural process...society(or social relation) itself is the proof of human psycholoy and dare i say the most authentic methodoly to understand the scope of human nature...they may come up with the diversity of social relation in different periods of history....they agian miss a point here that the form of society and human psychology always keep on changing but the essence remains immutable.

For instance marxism...marxism has never dealt the issue of gender with a moral stanpoint...for marx it is a social issue...and the historical role of women is determined by that process of dialectics...so even from marxian point of view its useless and ridiculous to blaim any religion and patriarchal traditions for the so called and exaggerated misery of women.

For almost last two centuries now feminists have blamed their(women) problems on the outside world. They have used the very real difficulties created by revolutionary social changes to avoid the task of looking within for the real problem and the real solution. They have been indulging in an orgy of finger pointing at men and self-pity.

if this attitude had brought them happiness and fulfillment, if feminism(their concept of emancipation) had made them good mothers and joyful wives, or even pleased them with their new 'place' in the world... the game might have been worth the candle. But it is evident that it hasn’t been. The game has brought frigidity, anxiety, pain(not the pleasureable one) and arimpitts, hairy legs and a soaring divorce rate, as well as neurosis, lesbianism, juvenile delinquency... All that results when the women in any culture forget ther true womanly function.

Human nature remains constant and immutable. you see...even the psychology of men(the desire to dominate) itself is the evidence of human nature...where have men got it from...off course by nature...are men something from outside nature?

For a men being dominant(lovingly) in a relationship is really erotic..it gives him the sense of controle that is deeply the part of his physiology...and women's response and liking for that dominant role of men is evident by the entire history of mankind...

you see the most popular female fantasy is of being dominated by a man...you can have different definition of dominance of submissive but you can not get rid of this ghost deep inside human nature...

if you see the post feminist westren europe you can clearly see the popularity of BDSM MASTER/SLAVE, GOREAN...relationship as the evidence for this thesis.

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philosopher,

Yes. Double barrel libbers ... you know.

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#23 Posted by neembu,

What's nice about it?

nice!

... feed ...

#20 Posted by nb,

nb, people still would have had sex because procreation is essential for a social safety net/insurance. You know, another working hand in the field, burhhapey ka suhara, and all that. The species would have still continued, and in a much more practical/calibrated manner where population growth would have stopped at points of full employment. Why did it have to involve pleasure which makes ballooning populations unable to fed themselves?

That was my point. God put pleasure in sex because it was meant to be ... and thus women would continue to be objectified. It is an integral part of the basic nature of things.

But zeemax, why would people continue to have sex over millions of years if there was no enjoyment in it? People aren't always good at doing things out of duty to the species. How would the species have continued?
You're welcome! That's what all of chowk could have looked like, with civil disagreements and arguments.

Hey nb thanks for your remark on Chowk Connect.

#16 Posted by nb,

I meant if God had taken pleasure out of sex, only then women would not be objectified ... you know I mean the purpose of procreation would have been sufficient. No?

... so the author does not have to think too hard....

Zeemax, it is all functional, is it not? It's our hormones that make it look ornamental.

I will provide my own answer to #7 so the author does have to think too hard.

Unless God were to flatten a woman's hull fore and aft, and makes some design changes in the plumbing in the hold to make it purely functional rather than ornamental , women will always be objectified.

cheers

Strange thing Masadi is banned for telling truth but filth is appreciated.

I did not even read it, just key words alarmed me.

Why this article is printed ?
Please ban author and dirty subjects, no washing og dirty laundry on this site ,as most are good normal people here. There are lots of had things going but giving space in such places more problems are created. We can not make people to follow moral path but ( we always hear whining by sex sinners they do for money) suppressing and not publishing vices is best way to control. we can not eradicate.

Asra, this is really heartfelt. I liked the twist; you make us think she is preparing for a life as a tawaif, instead it is marriage, and you seem to be asking, is there that much of a difference?

asranadeem,

Don't you think that women like being commodities and they tirelessly perpetuate the idea? Perhaps that's where their strength lie, to mindboggle their opposite sex.

Are men not objectified by women?

Gigolo's are doing well.

Indian girls look for suave,tall

1 s/w engineers 2 doctors

Indian girls wouldn't do due diligence on the boy's values. I don't think this can just be an Indian phenomenon.

I believe either you are intellectualizing your own hallucinations or just propogating something the feminists have been doing or you are one among those whose perceiving abilities have gone for a toss.

asranadeem,

Don't you think that women like being commodities and they tirelessly perpetuate the idea? Perhaps that's where their strength lie, to mindboggle their opposite sex.

Are men not objectified by women?

Gigolo's are doing well.

Indian girls look for suave,tall

1 s/w engineers 2 doctors

Indian girls wouldn't do due diligence on the boy's values. I don't think this can just be an Indian phenomenon.

I believe either you are intellectualizing your own hallucinations or just propogating something the feminists have been doing or you are one among those whose perceiving abilities have gone for a toss.

Author,

And could you kindly tell us as to how and through what measures women would 'not' be objectified? I mean ... would a choice in marriage be enough or something else do you think?

Thanks.

vengatramanan: It is never about having the power to decide. It's usually about how a woman is objectified and exploited like a commodity. It hasn't changed in centuries and I think it would take a couple of lives to get it right. It's a global issue.

This won't happen 10-15 years from now. Atleast in India, the male-female ratio has skewed. Now the girls have become the deciding authorities.

rf786: Thank you for the appreciation. 'Phohar' means someone who lacks skills for household tasks but is also used for people who are disorganized and careless.

Asra

Good, very good. Thanks

By the way, what does phohar mean? In our understanding its used for someone who is disorganized, careless.

It is fiction. However, 'situation' is pretty much the same for everyone.

I hope for your sake that is a fictional piece.