What is Hinduism? A Personal View

#340 Posted by Urstruly

Paksistan must NOT and should NOT quit the WOT. What Pak can quit and should really quit is following the US line in the war.

This is a war the will define the future of Pakistan and which way the Pakistani society is headed. Provinding free hands to the Jihadi militants would be commiting national suicide.
What we have to determine whether we need to follow the US line which is often in conflict with Pakistani National interst or create a policy which reflects more the situation in Pakistan.

Unfortunately, with the Pak army at the helm, there are no chances or it is unliekly that we will have a national policy to deal with this issue. The army would always follow the US line. SO in that respect I think the army is acting against the Pakistan national interest and it is pretty much a traitor to Pakistan and the Pakistani people.

We should really be ready deal with the army as we would deal with any traitor or the RAW agent if caught!

Re: # 340
Pakistan must quit the so called WOT....

Ans: Pakistan is fighting its own battle of survival and US is providing arms,ammunition and aid for this. From the midea report, it is evident that Islamists are gaining control of most part of the country. Once, it is fully Islamised, USA can any time bomb it from any of the aircraft carriers in Arabian sea. That option was there with USA long time back (2001). Whatever economic growth Pakistan is seeing is after 9/11/2001; it is result of co-operation with USA on WOT. If Mush had not agreed that time, Pakistan would have been in different postion now (economically dilapilated, bombed by USA/NATO and Islamists controlling most part of it...a complete chaos. I am not sure, whether USA will be able to prevent future doom of Pakistan, but they are trying). IRAQ was much stable country than Pakistan before it was attacked.

##43 ... cont.

"I do not have statistics, but have personally heard of many Muslims, as well as Hindus, being punished."

These punishments are not necessarily for religious offences. But the methods of punishment are the same across offences. I do not know how serious cases like rape etc. are adjudicated.

Dear Khurram,

You set me a difficult task. But I shall oblige with ONE example. Please note that "there is no one rule". Furthermore, I do not posit that there will be no problems. In fact, in the beginning there will be several problems, more than what we have now. But I believe that things will become better exponentially.

Barna is a village in Rajasthan dominated by the Meo "caste/biradiri". They are Muslims. But you have both Hindus and Sikhs in the village. The panchayat there meets whenever it is called. Men dominate the proceedings and women look on from roof-tops. The panchayat has participants from all religions. Disputes are resolved through extensive debates and the panchayat has "sub-councils". Most people are illeterate. There are no rules per se and judgements are highly subjective. Most inter-religious disputes have to do with "marriage/sex" and "disrespect to religious institutions and rituals". Though such cases are rare, the punishment meted out takes the form of banishment from the village/biradiri, fines and at times hookah/pani "bandh" for the family elder. I do not have statistics, but have personally heard of many Muslims, as well as Hindus, being punished. (also see Erin Moore's article in the Journal of American Folklore on Barna). Simple judgements and no blowing up of issues.

The communists in Kerala and Bengal have a totally different way of dealing with inter-religious issues at the panchayat level. The fundamentalists ways, mostly in the cow-belt, are different. Nothing is without conflict. The point is to resolve them locally.

sadly, instead of an intellectual discussion on hindu theology this has descended as usual into the typical braggadacio Indo-Pak slugging match by people--the majority of whom--don't even live in those countries!

If anyone can recommend some good books on the topic i'd be appreciative.

#339 Posted by khurram,

Well Pak army should know better. It must withdraw from its stand on WOT because it's a fake war created as a facade for US imperial interests and everyone knows that. It has no credibility in Pakistan.

And, believe me no one will bomb Pakistan to stone age. That was a bluff (if it was said in the first place which was denied by the ones who're supposed to have said it). The consequences will merely be economic sanctions which Pakistan withstood throughout nineties despite a much weaker external economy than now, and still tested nukes in the face of stiff american opposition.

Someone must have courage. Otherwise civil war and disintegration will be unavoidable.

Re: # 339

Pakistan must quit the so called WOT. If Americans along with 36 other nations cannot defeat Taliban in 7 years then Pakistan kis khait ki mooli hay. The possibility of Taliban taking over a city like Peshawar, Kohat, or Bannu is written on the wall. Just the destruction of bridge at attock will cripple fouj in a devastating way. If that happens fouj would not even be able to protect no garrison, no cantonment on the west bank. Fouj should stop haramkhori and reject the $950 million military aid package, not a single dollar of which can be spent on Pakistani populaion. Fouj may be the uncontested champions of haramkhors and free loaders in Pakistan, but at the end of the day they will have to live in Pakistan. Their generals may escape to bahamas or istanbul at the first hint of a revolution but rest of the fouj still has to live in pakistan. And as it is evident from RA bazar incident yesterday, people know where they live. Fouj must be forced not to bring the situtaion to the point of no return vis a vis people of pakistan for their own good.

zeemax,

Since the Pakistani Taliban support the Afghan Talibans, US makes the Pak Army fight them and they fight back.

So, what can be done to avoid a civil war?

#337 Posted by sattar2,

LoL Euros? So I guess Dollar has 'finally' lost it's reserve currency status! In that case I shall reconsider :~)

zee (#334),

Then perhaps you'll carry “it” out in Afghanistan; word has it that they are offering euros to the families of the momins for their final act.

… and events in Pakistan can turn on a dime. I’ll leave the Rolodex “as is”!

#335 by GT,
"They will have to work something out, won't they?"

Like how? An example of this is what I was looking for earlier.

#333 Posted by khurram:

Thanks for the reference. I do not see the article as a negative. 2001-2008 is a pretty short time, and already the article notes "positives". Furthermore, it suggests more reforms and "corrections". This is a part and parcel of the process. It should not be abandoned.

"How does all of this fit in with religious groups living with each other?"

They will have to work something out, won't they? And importantly, it does not have to be "one rule fits all". Also, groups can learn from the experiences of a larger set of actors.

#330 Posted by sattar2,

Sattar Bhai, welcome Back.

BTW, I believe the payback for Jamia Hafsa has been sufficiently extracted, so I have officially withdrawn my services from the bomber corps! In fact, after Benazir's assassination, I have become a peacenik :)

So kindly update your Rolodex!

(P.S. Since this point is always misunderstood, I will clarify in advance. I TOTALLY support Taliban's war against Nato in Afghanistan and the Pakistani Taliban's support to them, but I do not wish a civil war in Pakistan which I did earlier. The cost of that is just too great)

Re: #328 GT,

How does all of this fit in with religious groups living with each other?

Btw, have you come acros this,
http://www.dawn.com/2008/01/27/top18.htm

Re: # 259

'khuda' is a Persian desination for a deity that smells of Zoroastrian influence, much like in Greek mythological where ancestors became gods and goddesses and were worshipped.

Allah is THE proper name with many attributes. Eli, El, Elah, Elohim, are variations. Even Hallelujah ('praise ye the Lord'] is from Ya-Allah-Hu! Surprised?

The deviant saints obscured things beyond recognition, and instead of worshipping the One who created all, men were fooled into becoming trinitarians, dualists, polytheists etc.

Shanti now.

Re: # 252

Mr. M2,

Do you know what the name Hamid means? Or is it a cover? If it is, drop it then.

Now go sing praises of Laat, Mannat, Uzzah etc. while I pray for some concession for your damned soul.

Shanti.