What is Hinduism? A Personal View

Zee:

"But people don't have to know how fundamental it is."

No, they would be better off if they did. Unlike kaal, I am a liberal and I believe in compromise. But like kaal, I believe that people would be much better off if ALL knew what they and their "opponents" are compromising.

... the only person who has somewhat answered this question is echo. But he is no longer here, ...or is he?

Zee, when things are done correctly, they happen. When they are done incorrectly, in total ignorance, one is constantly pushing a gigantic boulder uphill.

One should research how much opposition ZAB had when he pronounced Mirzais non-Muslims. I would suspect not much. Nor would you find a Niagara of scholarsly Islamic support in Pakistan or worldwide for declaring them Muslims today.

Now, liberals have their own problems which cannot be fixed easily.

#268 Posted by GT

This question?

I would like to get the opinions of others too. I like you, have come to believe that this is an important (if not fundamental) issue.

Looks like my friends would like to drag me into this subject, despite my kicking and screaming :)

Yes, it is fundamental. But people don't have to know how fundamental it is. They took it up anyway so that's fine.

Now please don't accuse me of being cryptic!

#269 Posted by Eklavya

how very common Khuda was and how deeply ingrained the word was in Muslim (and Hindu) minds, what has happened is not short of miraculous.

Interesting you should have noticed this. Yes, it is indeed miraculous. People latched on to it like fish to water. It is natural. Now you rarely find any people who say 'Khuda Hafiz' in Pakistan. The term is extinct. It is the appeal of just the term 'Allah'.

Remember once we had a conversation about how the words of Qura'an move people even though they don't know what it's saying in Arabic? Just the tones of it work miracles.

Salim is right. Zia introduced the change, but he certainly didn't have to work hard at it. People just made the change themselves, and never went back to 'Khuda Hafiz' even though everyone hates Zia.

#205 hamidumdum2 {"astray from what ?! ..... the sirat-ul-mustaqeem established by an anbsolutist, hateful, arrogant and vengeful god who is so insecure and unsure of his godliness that he has to threaten people with fire and brimstone and castration if they don't 'believe' in him and pay homage to his mserable soul ! "]

Hamidumdum Sahib,
Sirat-ul-Mustaqeem is the straight path, but of course it requires a person who has the balance and sobriety to walk straight even under duress - say, for example, at the direction of the State Trooper to walk in a straight line while touching one's nose with the index finger of the right hand and counting backwards from 100 to 1, using only the odd numbers divisible by 7. :)

salim bhai, many of my Lucknowi Shia friends have refused to make the change. :)

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Urstruly, IMHO, since you have the correct understanding of Allah, those deviations are probably less important for you than they would be for an unsuspecting novice.

It's like sufism. It's for those who actually know and accept Islam, not for every charasi. :)

But zee,

would you like to answer my question?

#266 Zeemax {"'Rabb ul Aalameen' is the attribute, not the name"}

Zee Bhai,
You are right about this distinction. Rabb, Maalek, Maula, Rahman, and Raheem are all attributes and not THE NAME.

#269, Kaal Bhayya,
In fact, another word we have used is Maalik, meaning Owner or Lord. This is also Arabic as in Maalik-e-Yom-Iddin or Owner of the Day of Judgment.

The distinction between Khuda and Allah did not materialize, at the expense of Khuda, during Zia'S reign in Pakistan, when he invented the non-existent "Allah Haafiz." This was done to please the Saudis who cannot stand anything Persian - thus the change from Persian Gulf to Arabian Gulf, even though there is already an Arabian Sea.

"Khuda Haafiz" was the actual Urdu for "Good bye." Nobody ever used "Allah Haafiz" before Zia's Nizam-e-Mustafa.

Re: # 269

I've seen it but I find it unconvincing and without merit. I still call Him Khuda and my salutations remain Khuda Hafiz etc.

#268 Posted by GT,

Kaal is using Eklavya for some reason which he refuses to tell :) But I second your motion!

Re: # 264 zeemax

I agree. The word Allah is the proper noun, while 99 other names only represent the attributes of the One who is Allah.

I wish there were an etymologist here who could correct me but I think the words, God, Khuda, Bhagwan are also proper nouns.

#252 hamidumdum2 sahib,

Looks like you took my advice about discussing the topic with Urstruly Sahib over a couple of Stroh's. But why did you have to get started so early and at least you could have waited for Urstruly before you became three sheets to the wind. Now all you can think of are the three bint-e-Ilahi - have you seen any pink elephants yet?

Salim bhai, of course! Certainly, for centuries we (that includes Hindus too!) used the two words interchangeably. And zee is perfectly right about the essence argument.

But there is a difference, without which change from Khuda to Allah would never had the momentum and the power it did. Given both you and I know how very common Khuda was and how deeply ingrained the word was in Muslim (and Hindu) minds, what has happened is not short of miraculous.

It has happened because there is a real Islamic argument behind it. I am surprised Urstruly, of all people, is not see it.

Eklavya,

Actually, I like Kaal better and you should revert. In any case, thanks for the clear answer. I would like to get the opinions of others too. I like you, have come to believe that this is an important (if not fundamental) issue.

Re: # 263 Salim

I am inclined to agree. mostly sikhs use this word among non Muslims; probably Guru Nanak picked it up while his stay in Medina for 13 years. Alternatively, it is quite possible that Muslim influence on punjab for about 700 years at least prior to Guru must have cause the word Rabb to enter into Punjabi lexicon.

Eklavya;

What is basis of your disagreement.