Mehrgarh...The Lost Civilization

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Yes, ijaz_gul, you wrote about some intriguing discoveries you made in your travels. Clearly, the land right up to Afghanistan has seen some fascinating history a long time ago.

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mahfari, at least this is a very interesting subject for many of us. As and if more knowledge develops, it will be very helpful to those who are interested. So best of luck and Godspeed to researcher, and thanks for bringing this information to us.

Re: # 7 Dear this reference to Holy Prophet peace be upon him was in the context of atttributing extremism to Muslims , and every one has right to differ, but my point was that extremism is a menace and has no relationship with any sepcific religion.

As to population these are estimates available extrapolated with the avaialble number of mounds , remains and possible further archeological sites, and yes these are estimates , if they can be corrected upon nice idea , but this is not basic crux of the issue.If you have different sharing please share it .

And the point that Mehergarh being differnet , then raising point of continuity is not contradictory in itself, it is like saying that Anglo Saxons civilization of twentieth century is different from eleventh,12th century Anglo Saxon civilization , but it has continuity of certain features.

It is in the context of extrapolating the physical doamisn of Indua to the place which is geographical in surmountable and as to ideas, aritfacst they do travel.

Unfortunately picturs have not been added yet in article , but if we take the pictures of birds which are 8000 years old then comapre them to pictures in World Art Museum Pictures in Beijing about anicent China of 4 thousand years old then they are similar! But Mehergarh preccceded them by whooping 4000 years!!!! Now what will you say about this similarity and other differnces?

the point of differnce is in its originality, scope, physical terrain and the point raised after accepting these facts is that these ideas did not die , they travelled further to Indus... the evolution of humanity works like this. So where is contradiction?

As to ideological and interpolations CORRUPTION please make it explicit and clear, then we can discuss furhter. By the way , there is a nice saying facts are sacred , opinions are free!If the ideas are irratioanl and not supported by reason and logic , let su chaneg and reform them , but outright rejection ... does not appeal to rational standards!

thanks for taking interest in article!

Re: # 11 thank you very much for sharing information , please let us know more.and as to other points, here may be older human dwellings than Mehrgarh , and there are but the stress point is the level of evolutionary devel;opemnt attained.

Re: # 14 I have separately sent the pictures and reference portion to eb addeed , but here i reproduce the note portion

1.http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7085/pdf/440755a.pdf
2. The development of the technique of carbon dating is the most scientific method to gauge the age of the artifacts. It determines the age of old artifacts as per the proportion of carbon in the artifacts
4.Personal observation and experience in Punjab Pakisatn.
Walker and Erlandson 1986.
5.http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7085/pdf/440755a.pdf
6.This is proven by the examples quoted above in the article
7.http://www.answers.com/Mehrgarh
This is the first urban civilization of the world see
8.http://www.harappa.com/indus/indus4.html
9.http://varnam.org/history/2004/1 0/mehrgarh.php
10.http://www.harappa.com/script/maha1.html

Re: # 13 Please read the article again and the crux is that there are scattered evidences to the affect that there were nomadic and pastoral units living in the areas mentioned and Catal Hayuk .. see its pictures of site and compare the artifacst found at Mehrgarh and then compare it with the artifactzs and number of units, theri sophistication level, range adn scope and where was the first dentistry performed? Is there evidence that in Catal Hayuk or other places barley is found, signs of domestication of animals?
Are there signs of cotton made stuff in catal hayuk? is there any sign?
Thsi article does not say that it is the first sign of human activity, yes it does say thta it is the first organized, albeit more civilized and developed area of civilization and it has a consisten and continuous history, which makes it unique and different. Read the details provided by jarrige and then read the statement written in the text of article.

As to yangtze , at the moment I am in China and there official archelogical refernces go back to Xia dynasty which began around 2800BC and before that there are sporadic evidence one of them being symptoms of agriculture 10000 years ago ... but it does not show continuous trend of sustained civilization befor Xia dynasty of 2100 BC and even that is legendary and its archelogical evidence is not conclusive and its yellow Emperor is considered the fore father of Chinese. see the official refrence at http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_aboutchina/node_63.htm
and please talk in specific terms and raise pertinent question as to its specific contours and directions. I am sorry as to pictures as I have sent them to editors.any other point please elt me know?

It would also behoove the author to provide references for the assertions he has made in reference to Mehrgarh.

Where are you getting all this information for? Whose ideas are these?

Please provide citations.

The author's assertion about no civilization being older than 4000 BCE has no merit.
The following statement by the author is completely erroneous,

"But when the comparative studies are conducted then we come to know that all these civilization developments except Mehrgarh are not older than 4000 B.C in Middle East , Europe, China, Asia and other parts of world. In town of Jericho there have been found large quantity of grains ranging back to 12000 years old, but there are no settled town found there before about 4000 B.C."

The first known human civilization by modern man was seen in Catal Huyuk, Turkey from around 7500 BCE. Please google it.

Also the Yangtze farmers were farming millet around 9000 BCE.

The author would do well to carefully proofread his papers and carefully research before making absolute statements.

Ijaz,

Do you have any pictures of paintings?

haideri

Let’s keep this discussion to archeology only.
Between 1979-81, I happened to work with an exploration company around Dera Bughti, Dadar, Sibi and Pirkoh. Just hanging around for adventure, I found fossil shells, star fish and sea horses. Then at Pathar Nullah, where the spring comes out of a cave, I saw wall paintings, that I also mentioned to Tahmad in interacts. Then in 1991-2, I went to Zhob (Old Fort Sandeman) and in the Neeli Kach Valley saw caves with coloured painting. It was then I learnt of the Cro Mognon Man. In Dera Bughti and Mehrgarh, I met a retired Brigadier doing some archeological work at his own.
I shared this information with the archeology department headed by Dr. Dani. A professor there took me to the latest discoveries along Islamabad Highway and specially showed me a mound on which we now find Unity, Faith, and Discipline. As per his assessment these were the oldest human dwellings ever discovered, perhaps even older than Mehrgarh. That when mu passion for Anthro was born.
Searching through the Holy Bible for references to India/Indus/Schinde and found the name Pishon in the Book of Genesis. Some scholars referred to it as Indus while others as Nara/Sarasvati. It was then my quest began.

Re: # 6 I think dear you are not aware of the facts on ground and how can acts of certian lunatics be a criteria to judge whole of the society?

Is whole indian society like Modi of Gujerat?I think no he is an aberration... if yes then why to equate pakisatn with zeal of a certain few?

Re: # 5 It is too judgemental opinion and we have many historinas who have written extensively on these subjects and their research is done in independant capacity.
in our text books we have mention of dr, Abdus Salam Sahib and a Centre of Excellence on his Name in Mathematics in Government College University Lahore.

Our ideas have problems no doubt but they exist and are discussed and eductaed peopel have interst in them. Every people have their own undrestanding of past... and yes it is truth we have lack of passion on the subject of histroy and also popualr biases. But this very article is an attempt to know more and discover our roots and place.

There was a civilization in Pakistan before 700 AD? Vow!! This is news for all of us......

"....not try to find all answers to its problems in some religious text..."

"Well said there is a saying of Holy Prophet...."

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With due respect to mahmood mahmood ji, ananth, you are wasting your time trying to discuss values and religion across an unbridgeable gulf.

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mahmood mahmood ji, except for its ideological corruption and interpolations, the article appears to be about a very important topic. Hopefully, you took care to check the veracity of statements about population size etc.

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Still, was there any good reason why you made very strong opening statements about this being a very different civilization than that of Indus Valley, and then, went on to describe everything that shows a continuity?

What in your view makes this such a very different "civilization."

Ananth 07,

It is improper to compare pakistan with Iran. Iran has a legacy of a great civilisation and that is why teh people protested. Look at the recent distruction of budha painitngs in pakistan, no one even wrote about it.

For teh people to vlaue something, it should be portrayed as something of value by the society, in the school books. K for kafir education do not leave much option for a new generation other than destroying the budhas and everything non islamic.

mahfari 2,

It is not question of respecting pak choices. I was only pointing out that the contents of this article cannot be in any pak text books, it cannot be something that is discussed by the pak elites like YLH.

It is something to be denied, a little like Abdus Salaam. Many know about him, but no one will dare to talk in public.