Mehrgarh...The Lost Civilization

bulleya, mahfari

Bhaiyon, as I wrote elsewhere, these debates, just like debates on terrorism that used to rage on Chowk until yesterday (and, which will surely come again), are STRICTLY Pakistani in both their origin and their limit.

And these debates will be as productive for Pakistani friends as were those hyper-passionate debates on definitions of terrorism.

Re: # 130 good points! But the count of civilizations, even if taken from your point of view has missed many CIVILIZATIONS in India and Pakisatn and overall South Asia.

Afghan Civilization? it is most interesting point as there was no land named as Afghanistan before Durranis... was it?

As to Bengal being an independant entity.. they had no doudt theri independant thoughts and lakhnawati had its unique persoanlioty.

But all these things coem later. the time this article deals is unique in whoile world as to its develiopmental level, then comparisons can not be made with its contemporaries as when it died or was near death, othber civilizations of world were rising.

it should eb kept in mind , then discussion will have clarity fo thought, and religion is one factor in understanding civilizations not the whole one!

...the debate of civilizations of south asia is an interesting one.......the common mistake people make is to take present-day national boundaries and map them to historical civilizations.......when in fact, india and pakistan (and afghanistan and sri lanka and bangladesh etc.) are very young entities......

........a better way to look at history is to define historically strong civilizational boundaries in the region based on more concrete characteristics....such divisions will rely on languages, cultures, physical appearances, religion, customs, prominent geogrphical boundaries (rivers, mountains etc.) etc.......

.......for example, pakistan is not a civilization.....neither is india nor afghanistan....and bangladesh is half a civilization......

........pakistan west of the indus is part of the afghan civilization......other than under ashoka and under a few rulers, here and there, it was part of afghan......if anything the conquests occured from afghan into south asia, rather than vice-versa........

east of indus, pakistan contains one complete civilization and two incomplete one......sind is a complete civilization in pakistan (roughly speaking).....punjab is another, with a portion in india.....kashmir is a third, with a portion in india......though pakistan's kashmir, for all practical purposes, is a part of the punjab civilizations (the northern areas can be divided into tiny civilizations of their own).......

so sind is really the only full civilization in pakistan.....

bangladesh is half a civilization.....its other part being in india.....afghanistan is most of the afghan/pushtun civilization combined with central asian civilizations in the north.....sri lanka is half-tamil and half sinhalese (??)....hence bangladesh is the only country, in south asia that is not a combination of civilizations.....

......india has a long list of civilizations, in one country......each indian state/province (almost) is a civilization)...each state/province's inhabitants have their own looks, own language, own culture, own alphabet etc.....tamils, bengalis, punjabis, andhra, south, north etc.......

historically, south asia was, thus, like europe.....in fact, even more diverse than europe.....it would have returned to the same state, had an odd incidence of british invasion not occured.......

so when people are looking for their background.......they cannot look at hinduism or islam, or india or pakistan, or hindustan or bharat etc........they need to look at which civilization they belonged to.......

and in many cases, that will change as families migrate.....one side of my ancestory traces its way from rajasthan to kashmir to punjab (and now to north america).....none of it is or was ever indian or hindustani.....at best i can say, currently, it is pakistani, as it is currently settled in pakistan........historically, it is either kashmiri, punjabi or rajasthani......it has nothing to do with bihar or orrissa or kerela.......or nearly every other part of india (and sri lanka and afghanistan)........

i think the impact of religion is quite decisive in india and pakistan and how they view history......e.g. punjabis in pakistan hail ghaznavi as a hero, even though he was an afghan who invaded punjab and (probably) killed their ancestors.......while indian punjabis consider ashoka a hero, even though he was a bihari who invaded punjab also and (probably) killed their ancestors......

primarily becuase ghaznavi was a muslim and ashoka was a hindu/bhudhist...

Re: # 128 Oh my Allah... what wishful thinking. It is a fact of history... inspiration is still the bases which inspired Muslims to stand together and difffferent from biased fellow Indians of 1940's

Bechare Paki people. They are in denial. Now they have to discover their roots in Indus and older Harappan civilizations and share their ancestry with Horrible Hing sniffing Hindus. They better have their First Tirthankar coming from Arabia. They must denigrate what Hinduss have become: Polytheistic, Polyglot, Polyethnic, Polyculinary (including some who consume loads of Hing, avoid Meat, Eggs, Potatoes, Onions and Lahsun), Polycasteic, Polyreligious, Plygamous, Polygynandrous. You name a Poly they have it. They tried very hard to change them and failed.

Now they are angry that umrika is threatening with bombing back to Harappan age. Tch, Tch, Tch, Tch, Tch.

Re: # 126 what relationship this has with Mehergarh? Do,nt hijack the topic!

Re: # 124

I thought the tide for the humiliation of Muslims League changed only after Jinnah-Sikandar Pact.

...and I too think , it basically was to safe guard the interest of Salariat, and feudals joined in Later ...

Islam ...etc... was just a tool / mechanism to control the masses.

At last the sindhis are becoming sensible. From dawn of today


Kashmir Day


I FAIL to understand the wisdom behind declaring Feb 5 Kashmir Day as a public holiday. What have we achieved during the last 60 years in Kashmir that we should have a Kashmir day holiday.

What will most of the people do sitting at home? Maybe they will all sleep late, watch TV or play with their children.

The industries will have to run on double the normal wages and most of the daily wage earners will lose their earnings sitting idle at home, doing nothing.

I think it is simply a misconception and the government should look into it and remove it from the holiday list during the year 2009.

RAZA ALI DOSSA
Karachi

Manto,

The following is from jang of today, opinion piece.

This provides some explanation for teh present state of pakistan, and why your ilk have only one speach to hold on to. The man had done a deal with the mullahs long time ago that pakistan will be a sharia country.

//////////////////////////////
The most famous of these Marxist theories is the one put forth by the late Hamza Alavi. He asserted that the most ardent supporters of the idea of Pakistan were not the ulema but the Muslim salariat. The salariat comprised the sizable body of modern-educated Muslims who perceived that the creation of Pakistan would drastically improve their chances of finding employment with the state than if they were not to remain a part of a united India dominated by the more economically and educationally advanced Hindu majority. Thus, it is argued, Pakistan was not established out of confessional zeal but secular concerns of the salariat.

Alavi, however, never at any stage studied the actual dynamics of the Pakistan movement after the Lahore resolution of 1940. Therefore he was completely oblivious of the fact that the Muslim League made its breakthrough in the Punjab and NWFP only when it won over the Barelvi ulema and pirs. There is solid evidence to prove that Jinnah assured the ulema that the Shariah will apply to Muslims in Pakistan.

Re: # 122
It is useless to cast pearls before swine!

#111

without your past and drawing strenghth from it ... Pakistan will have no golden future. Certainly not in the "saudi path" it is pursuing now.

Re: # 114 Dear Mehergarh is unique and it was welll before ... about 2500-4000 before Indus flourished. Indus came after Mehergarh... and its location is entirely in different terrain and place. It can not be mixed up with Indus... yes Indus inherited its many characterestics, but it does not make it a symbol of later civilization. It was the originator of civilization, art and symbology in Pakistan.

Guys,

I have uploaded a picture of surumcho(surma applicator)which is currently in my possession. This surumcho is from Emperor Akbar's time.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23423417@N06/2235942742/sizes/l/

Infact there was an article written by Mr Azmat Ansari in Dawn, and reproduced here
http://karachi.metblogs.com/archives/2007/08/karachi_has_a_h.phtml


" Unfortunately, the most extraordinary discovery of the millennium, the existence of megalithic graves in Gulistan-i-Jauhar — which proved it beyond any doubt that the area which we call Karachi today was an inhabited one four to five thousand years ago — was played down."


.... a Part of Undermining History , which started 60 years Back....

Infact Neolithic graves have also been found in and around Karachi....especially around Gadap , Korangi creek, and in thatta district.


http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:-2qdlrTzliQJ:www.sindh.iucnp .org/pdf/ch.PDF+neolithic+graves+in+Karachi&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6

Yes though it is not conclusive, but there is a theory , afloat, based on the West to East geographic shift of sanskit text , which at least shows Tamil Nadu to be in contact or a part of this civilization.

http://www.harappa.com/script/mahadevantext.html


But again, nothing is conclusive so far...