Mehrgarh...The Lost Civilization

Re: # 147 tamanna ka dusra kadam kehan hei ya rab
hum ny dashte imakn na tamam paya

Great Ghalib

Re: # 143

"Scientific inquiry itself can be subject matter a scientific inquiry. "

In the 70s people thought that language is the problem and comparison of languages became an issue. They developed meta language to compare languages. Then they found meta language as teh problem and they developed meta - meta laguage. That si when I lost interest.

You can enquire into scientific enquiry and then enquire into that.

I recall a zen budhist koan. A student asked what supports the earth. The guru said a turtle. What supports the turtle, it is another turtle. The guru added, it is turtle all the way...and the student achieved enlightenment, because in a flash the student understood the meaning and the futility of that kind of enquiry.

Re: # 145 I believe mein akela hi chala tha janeb e manzil lug miltay gai karwan banta gaya

bhai jaan, why do you insist on taking these Indians along? There is a beautiful poem you might want to read. It's called ekla chalo re.

Re: # 143 But if this process of psyhchosis changes the lives of millions with visible positive change, then what about such issues? They need to be scientifically checked I completely agree. But do we check it scientifically? HAve we dared enough to check ideas of Prophets? Have we courage enough to look what is the essence of ideas of prophets ?

Let us embark on this journey!

#140 Posted by mahfari

We Indians equate scientific facts known at some point in time as science itself. Partly because of the education system we inherited from British which merely accentuated already defective culture of Guru-Shishya tradition in which Guru is Pita-Samaan and therefore always right in some sense because you could not insinuate Guru to be wrong. This subverts tendentiousness to inquiry which almost invariably leads to challenge of an old and established idea. If thought process of Guru cannot be studied because it belonged to a Pita-Samaan Guru then old ideas cannot be challenged.

Science is not body of knowledge arrived at and frozen in some point in time. Science is how that body of knowledge was arrived at, the method that was used, the logic behind it, the epistemology behind it. Nothing is outside of ambit of scientific inquiry. Scientific inquiry itself can be subject matter a scientific inquiry. How scientific inquiry can be led astray by human propensity to denial and distortion, to pride and arrogance, to hypocrisy, to neurosis and psychosis, to errors in thinking -- all these can also be proper subject matter of scientific inquiry. In this inquiry a prophet could be a psychotic person. Or may be slow in admitting mistake. Or just plain and simply slow in thinking or outright wrong.

Re: # 141 what should I say?

"with open mind as Krishna MAurti said, free your minds of all preconceived ideas and think!"

mahmood mahmood ji, we would love to be open-minded like you but much to our regret and loss we CAN'T!

Krishna Murthi was a wrong example. He was a great believer like you. Hence, like you, he put faith in no preconceptions. But our hearts are closed :(

----------

At best, we can look upon you in pure awe as you valiantly discover separate civilization after separate civilization, every fear years, beyond every few yards, behind every rain-drenched hill side and big tree.

Re: # 139Nothing is absolutely true or false always. There is saying every dispute has three different outlooks, yours, your opponent's and the true one!So everyhting can not be blamed on ourselves or opponents.

A long journey begins from a small step! So let us travel!with open mind as Krishna MAurti said, free yourminds of all preconceived ideas and think!

Sceintific study of Man could be key to future provided we are ready to pursue it in a very thoroughgoing manner eschewing all preconcieved ideas. People who think that they are very scientific are often themselves immersed in fixed beliefs they are unwilling to give up. Science demands open minded approach to everything. Open minded approach does not mean Broadminded approach. Broadminded means accepting any BS. Open minded means willingness to check every assumption again and again. Sceintific approach means being arrogant in belief that its methods always works at the same time being humble to challenge ones own most ardent deeply held beliefs.

Ananth07's #137 dream of soft boundries is Broadmindedness. It is not going to work. Unless Pakistan behaves responsibly. France and Germany have soft boundries but they have many treaties and systems of preventing cross-border crimes also. And by and large they adhere to those treaties honestly.

Re: # 137 Nice ideas, we need to work for that. But the road moves by facing truth and accepting the independance and by give and take.
I pray for that day!

In another 50 years most boundaries in south Asia would have become soft boundaries. If france and germany can have the same currency … why not India and Pakistan. Acknowledging common heritage like Mehrgarh is the way forward… and to make the borders soft faster.

Best way to bring down the animosity is to have at least a few subjects like the common heritage common to all students in the sub continent.

past not apst*

Re: # 133 and looking at histroy without knowing norms and ideas of apst is also illogical!Is,nt it so?

Re: # 132 A place called heritage of humanity... how it can be restricted to geographical limitations?

Is search fro origins of civilization only limited to Pakisatn?

Think in broader terms, and it is not the crux of article to emphasise, except that this place lies in Pakisatn at present, but to search fro facsta nd truth.

You think knowledge has area specification? Get over biases dear, and be a dispassioante contributor!

Be a human being... true one not in name only!Human heritage is for all not rstricted to any region,creeed,religion or natioanlity.

mahfari #: yes, within the context of this article, the society would not have been developed enough to have created many civilizations, in south asia......

however, moving forward south asia did develop into many civilizations......before getting into that debate, once has to first define exactly what the characteristics of a civilization are......what are its building blocks.....

what they aren't are the national boundaries of present-day south asian countries.......hence the idea of a pakistani looking at his indian identity and an indian looking at his pakistani identity etc. are nonsensical arguments....

the characteristics of a civilization, in my opinion are factors that place human beings into a collective, and influence the development of commonalities, over centuries....

...at the top of the list would be distinct geogrphical features which provide sustenance or divide communities.....rivers, moutain ranges, oceans, forests, etc......

then i would say is the development of language, which takes a long time to develop.....after that would be physical features, which develop over generations of mating....after that would be cultures and customs......then, perhaps religion......

.....all these, then, create a distinct civilization......

based on this, south asia has many distinct civilizations - some divided across national borders.....all divided acros religions......one can name them, whatever one wants......

pakistan contains a portion of the afghan/pushtun, punjabi, kashmiri (also punjabi), and sindhi civilizations......you can sub-divide them further, but these are the minimum......

india has a whole long list......

so anyone asking a pakistani to recognize his hindu or indian civilizational ancestory is being ridiculous....there is no, "indian" historical civilization....india is a 200 year old administrative entity created by the british.......had they invaded iran, it would be a part of that india also.....in present day, india is not a single civilization.....it is a country, consisting of a combination of many civilizations.....pakistan is the same......two hundred years from now, these civilizations maybe part of other countries, or independent, or still where they are...

what is more logical is to ask a pakistani punjabi if he/she realizes his/her historical punjabi civilizational history......and whether a sindhi does so for sind and a pathan for pushtun etc.......

looking at south asian history through the window of present day india and pakistan is illogical......

bulleya, mahfari

Bhaiyon, as I wrote elsewhere, these debates, just like debates on terrorism that used to rage on Chowk until yesterday (and, which will surely come again), are STRICTLY Pakistani in both their origin and their limit.

And these debates will be as productive for Pakistani friends as were those hyper-passionate debates on definitions of terrorism.

Re: # 130 good points! But the count of civilizations, even if taken from your point of view has missed many CIVILIZATIONS in India and Pakisatn and overall South Asia.

Afghan Civilization? it is most interesting point as there was no land named as Afghanistan before Durranis... was it?

As to Bengal being an independant entity.. they had no doudt theri independant thoughts and lakhnawati had its unique persoanlioty.

But all these things coem later. the time this article deals is unique in whoile world as to its develiopmental level, then comparisons can not be made with its contemporaries as when it died or was near death, othber civilizations of world were rising.

it should eb kept in mind , then discussion will have clarity fo thought, and religion is one factor in understanding civilizations not the whole one!

...the debate of civilizations of south asia is an interesting one.......the common mistake people make is to take present-day national boundaries and map them to historical civilizations.......when in fact, india and pakistan (and afghanistan and sri lanka and bangladesh etc.) are very young entities......

........a better way to look at history is to define historically strong civilizational boundaries in the region based on more concrete characteristics....such divisions will rely on languages, cultures, physical appearances, religion, customs, prominent geogrphical boundaries (rivers, mountains etc.) etc.......

.......for example, pakistan is not a civilization.....neither is india nor afghanistan....and bangladesh is half a civilization......

........pakistan west of the indus is part of the afghan civilization......other than under ashoka and under a few rulers, here and there, it was part of afghan......if anything the conquests occured from afghan into south asia, rather than vice-versa........

east of indus, pakistan contains one complete civilization and two incomplete one......sind is a complete civilization in pakistan (roughly speaking).....punjab is another, with a portion in india.....kashmir is a third, with a portion in india......though pakistan's kashmir, for all practical purposes, is a part of the punjab civilizations (the northern areas can be divided into tiny civilizations of their own).......

so sind is really the only full civilization in pakistan.....

bangladesh is half a civilization.....its other part being in india.....afghanistan is most of the afghan/pushtun civilization combined with central asian civilizations in the north.....sri lanka is half-tamil and half sinhalese (??)....hence bangladesh is the only country, in south asia that is not a combination of civilizations.....

......india has a long list of civilizations, in one country......each indian state/province (almost) is a civilization)...each state/province's inhabitants have their own looks, own language, own culture, own alphabet etc.....tamils, bengalis, punjabis, andhra, south, north etc.......

historically, south asia was, thus, like europe.....in fact, even more diverse than europe.....it would have returned to the same state, had an odd incidence of british invasion not occured.......

so when people are looking for their background.......they cannot look at hinduism or islam, or india or pakistan, or hindustan or bharat etc........they need to look at which civilization they belonged to.......

and in many cases, that will change as families migrate.....one side of my ancestory traces its way from rajasthan to kashmir to punjab (and now to north america).....none of it is or was ever indian or hindustani.....at best i can say, currently, it is pakistani, as it is currently settled in pakistan........historically, it is either kashmiri, punjabi or rajasthani......it has nothing to do with bihar or orrissa or kerela.......or nearly every other part of india (and sri lanka and afghanistan)........

i think the impact of religion is quite decisive in india and pakistan and how they view history......e.g. punjabis in pakistan hail ghaznavi as a hero, even though he was an afghan who invaded punjab and (probably) killed their ancestors.......while indian punjabis consider ashoka a hero, even though he was a bihari who invaded punjab also and (probably) killed their ancestors......

primarily becuase ghaznavi was a muslim and ashoka was a hindu/bhudhist...

Re: # 128 Oh my Allah... what wishful thinking. It is a fact of history... inspiration is still the bases which inspired Muslims to stand together and difffferent from biased fellow Indians of 1940's

Bechare Paki people. They are in denial. Now they have to discover their roots in Indus and older Harappan civilizations and share their ancestry with Horrible Hing sniffing Hindus. They better have their First Tirthankar coming from Arabia. They must denigrate what Hinduss have become: Polytheistic, Polyglot, Polyethnic, Polyculinary (including some who consume loads of Hing, avoid Meat, Eggs, Potatoes, Onions and Lahsun), Polycasteic, Polyreligious, Plygamous, Polygynandrous. You name a Poly they have it. They tried very hard to change them and failed.

Now they are angry that umrika is threatening with bombing back to Harappan age. Tch, Tch, Tch, Tch, Tch.

Re: # 126 what relationship this has with Mehergarh? Do,nt hijack the topic!

Re: # 124

I thought the tide for the humiliation of Muslims League changed only after Jinnah-Sikandar Pact.

...and I too think , it basically was to safe guard the interest of Salariat, and feudals joined in Later ...

Islam ...etc... was just a tool / mechanism to control the masses.

At last the sindhis are becoming sensible. From dawn of today


Kashmir Day


I FAIL to understand the wisdom behind declaring Feb 5 Kashmir Day as a public holiday. What have we achieved during the last 60 years in Kashmir that we should have a Kashmir day holiday.

What will most of the people do sitting at home? Maybe they will all sleep late, watch TV or play with their children.

The industries will have to run on double the normal wages and most of the daily wage earners will lose their earnings sitting idle at home, doing nothing.

I think it is simply a misconception and the government should look into it and remove it from the holiday list during the year 2009.

RAZA ALI DOSSA
Karachi

Manto,

The following is from jang of today, opinion piece.

This provides some explanation for teh present state of pakistan, and why your ilk have only one speach to hold on to. The man had done a deal with the mullahs long time ago that pakistan will be a sharia country.

//////////////////////////////
The most famous of these Marxist theories is the one put forth by the late Hamza Alavi. He asserted that the most ardent supporters of the idea of Pakistan were not the ulema but the Muslim salariat. The salariat comprised the sizable body of modern-educated Muslims who perceived that the creation of Pakistan would drastically improve their chances of finding employment with the state than if they were not to remain a part of a united India dominated by the more economically and educationally advanced Hindu majority. Thus, it is argued, Pakistan was not established out of confessional zeal but secular concerns of the salariat.

Alavi, however, never at any stage studied the actual dynamics of the Pakistan movement after the Lahore resolution of 1940. Therefore he was completely oblivious of the fact that the Muslim League made its breakthrough in the Punjab and NWFP only when it won over the Barelvi ulema and pirs. There is solid evidence to prove that Jinnah assured the ulema that the Shariah will apply to Muslims in Pakistan.

Re: # 122
It is useless to cast pearls before swine!

#111

without your past and drawing strenghth from it ... Pakistan will have no golden future. Certainly not in the "saudi path" it is pursuing now.

Re: # 114 Dear Mehergarh is unique and it was welll before ... about 2500-4000 before Indus flourished. Indus came after Mehergarh... and its location is entirely in different terrain and place. It can not be mixed up with Indus... yes Indus inherited its many characterestics, but it does not make it a symbol of later civilization. It was the originator of civilization, art and symbology in Pakistan.

Guys,

I have uploaded a picture of surumcho(surma applicator)which is currently in my possession. This surumcho is from Emperor Akbar's time.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23423417@N06/2235942742/sizes/l/

Infact there was an article written by Mr Azmat Ansari in Dawn, and reproduced here
http://karachi.metblogs.com/archives/2007/08/karachi_has_a_h.phtml


" Unfortunately, the most extraordinary discovery of the millennium, the existence of megalithic graves in Gulistan-i-Jauhar — which proved it beyond any doubt that the area which we call Karachi today was an inhabited one four to five thousand years ago — was played down."


.... a Part of Undermining History , which started 60 years Back....

Infact Neolithic graves have also been found in and around Karachi....especially around Gadap , Korangi creek, and in thatta district.


http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:-2qdlrTzliQJ:www.sindh.iucnp .org/pdf/ch.PDF+neolithic+graves+in+Karachi&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6

Yes though it is not conclusive, but there is a theory , afloat, based on the West to East geographic shift of sanskit text , which at least shows Tamil Nadu to be in contact or a part of this civilization.

http://www.harappa.com/script/mahadevantext.html


But again, nothing is conclusive so far...

Re: # 115

"traces of this great civilization have been found as far as Tamil Nadu" This may not be accurate.

Also, http://www.hindunet.org is not very credible website.

haideri

this Article thogh I think is a bit outdated as it identifies only about 1100 or so sites, but still

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/sarasvati/html/civilizationdates. htm

is worth a read...it also have a few maps....

I'll try to find the link to the Satellite Imaged Map , tracing the course or Saraswati ....and will post it.
later.


traces of this great civilization have been found as far as Tamil Nadu.

Mehergarh , one of the about 2400 plus sites , scattered all over india but mostly concentrated in areas now in Pakistan, Mehergarh is associated with Indus Saraswati Civilzation, Meher garh is considered among the oldest of the roots.

Indus -Saraswati civilization, a civilization that propespered betweent two rivers, on the West Indus, and to the East Saraswati, Saraswati it is said, used to orignate from East of Satluj from the Siwalik ranges Himaliyas and ended up in Delta of Run of Kutch , in between during the course of time, Saraswati dried up somewhere in the Rajhistan Desert and is no More.
some attribute this drying up of Saraswati as the beggining of the end of this great Oldest civilization.

..its mentioned in the Regveda and other Vedic Literature.
Ghaggar which reached the Hakra branch in Bahawalpur,
is traditionally identified with the Sarasvati river.

Re: # 99 Very nice information, this also shows variety within hindu practices adn also the differences of South India and North India .

Re: # 96 Thanks please let me see hteir pictures! thx for the offer!

Re: # 97 It is our personal choice to wear straitjacket or breathe in open air! It was metaphorical not in literal sense! As many dream return back to Golden ages, I think we should strive fro Futureas Goldrn Ages instead of regresssing back.

Past is to understand present and future , not to recopy!

Re: # 108

You can't compare Jinnah and Modi. UtraConservative != UltraLibral

haieri

Haideri,

And one more favour, please teach some
of those persian culture and mannerism
to that uncouth HP.

OK, I would not start this with you.
You appear to speak a civilized language,
so will spare you.
But just remember, next time you utter
Modi, MAJ will pop up.
And Thanks once again for keeping the
language civil.

Re: # 106

Do you know any victims of partition?. I do, I was raised by one. Her Mother and Father were slaughtered infront of her eyes. She died six months ago. Don't start this with me shishpa....

haideri

Haideri,

Only when Modi reaches the stature of MAJ
can be consulted for such details.
He has lot of growing up to do.

Re: # 104

Call Narendra Modi...for latest update.

haideri

And you never told me, has the blood dried
from that knife they used in August of 47?

HP,

I know that is what your baap and grandbaap
said to that poor hindu neighbour of yours
in 1947. It is in your genes, admit it.

Hindu was a name given to the people who lived east of river Indus. Hindu was not a religion and the people who lived east of Indus can have any religion they want and it does not necessarily have to be the modern Hindu religion. Which essentially is not a religion at all. Read the article by your Sangh parivar guru DM!

#100 Posted by shishapa

Let me say this: the Indus civilization is not Hindu civilization and whether we are proud of it or not, should not concern you. The true inheritor of that civilization still live in those areas and people from the South, central or the eastern India can only have an academic interest in that civilization and nothing else!It is our heritage and we will deal with. You are an outsider or just a person who had some interest like many Europeans and others.

So basically fk off!

Re: # 98

So are you proud of your Hindu heritage?
Yes or no is what I was looking for.
If yes, what about Hindu heritage that
makes you proud?

most major castes in south India still bury their dead. In Karnataka major castes like vokkaliga, lingayat, kuruba.. all bury their dead. Some castes bury the dead in a cross legged sitting position

shishapa,

Do you think Kitas Raj mentioned in my post that you selectively quoted with malafide intent is representative of Martian culture?

#83

Nobody asked you to worship the past… During renaissance Europe got out of the abrahamic straightjacket and learnt from the more intellectually open times of the past.

Re: # 95
Mahfari,

There are several places in my area and some of them on my land with great potential for excavation. They are about seven hundred years old. Are you interested in these kinds of sites?. I have several of the artifacts which I dug up many years ago. My favorite one is “surumcho� i.e eyeliner tool

haideri

Re: # 90Thank you very much for appreciation , as to question of tis vanishing, will discuss it spearately and hope to wrtie more on these topics.
thx again!

Re: # 83 This article is an efort to understand past, but to say Reniassance by worshipping past, it is as absurd idea as to ressurect old Greece. Phonexis rise only in stories not in realities. New things will create Renaisssance. not idle worship of past.Think new!

Re: # 43 what about genies of Hunduvata in India?

Re: # 27 I did,nt flag it .

Re: # 61

". just like we are proud of our Mughal, sikh and British heritage."

Is there nobody left in Pakistan proud of
their Hindu heritage? Not even remaining
hindus? Is "we" all of Pakistanis or just
Pakistani muslims?
So average muslim in Pakistan is just like
a hindu fanatic who disowns any muslim
heritage in India?

Mahmood Saheb:

Thanks for a very informative article.

It appears that there is a continuity of civilization from Mehargarh and Mohenjodaro, as shown by the similarity of figurines, etc. Is it possible that the Indus Valley civilization disappeared for the same reason as Mehargarh, namely, because conditions became unsuitable for human living?

A word about Hindus and burial. While Hindus do cremate their dead as a rule, there are exceptions even today. I am aware of some communities, such as Nadars of Tamil Nadu who bury their dead.

Thanks Ijaz for your valuable input. It is regrettable that the article is not getting more interacts like yours and seems to be getting mired in the usual India-Pak mudslinging.

Re: # 88

my mistake.........this was for some other topic

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83 Ananth garu,

I am a fellow gulti

Guys,

Sparring apart- we desis are horrible when it comes to cherishing and preserving our natural and cultural heritage. The real danger is that by the time these nations are wealthy and educated enuff to appreciate their true worth, they may well have vanished. Hopefully things will change and it wudnt come to such a pass.

Regards

PS: Ages since I enjoyed a proper derby!!!

Re: # 83

Rest assure we celebrate our rich past ... Gandhara and Mohenjodaro more so than anything else.

How about you stopping Hindu fascists from destroying historical buildings because a "god" was born there first and then advise us on our rich past.

Jayp and gracious?

He is a liar. A shameless one at that. Everything he has claimed on chowk from K for Kafir to everything else has been a lie.

I challenge him to show us a single link showing that Pakistan has indeed withdrawn its application for Harappa as a world heritage site... as if Jehadis didn't have other things to agitate about.

Manto Garu,
(garu is a honorific in telugu .. just like “ji� )

Europe was in dark ages.. when it followed Christianity by the “book� … and ignored its past. Renaissance happed when Europe looked beyond christianity… to its rish past.

If pakistan wants to have a renaissance… it has to look to its rich past.. and draw from it for its nation building exercise.

( recall that harappa was withdrawn by mushy under pressure from the jihadis. )

Source???

Regards

Manto mian,

I hope Harappa gets selected pretty soon, the site cud do with some funds and visibility.

Jayp,

I hope u will be gracious enuff to concede that u were wrong.

Anyway, lets pray that UNESCO guys get there b4 Mahatma Mehsud does.

Regards

Thanks majumdar.

I recall that harappa was withdrawn by mushy under pressure from the jihadis.

Poor Jayp's claim was that Pakistan has not submitted Harappa's name for WHC site... here is the information from the UNESCO Website:

http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/1878/


Archaeological Site of Harappa

Pakistan (Asia and the Pacific)


Date of Submission: 30/01/2004
Criteria: (ii)(iv)
Category: Cultural
Submission prepared by:
Department of Archaeology and Museums
Coordinates:
30° 6 N 72° 8 E - Punjab
Ref.: 1878

Description
The archaeological site of Harappa consists of a series of low archaeological mounds and cemeteries to the south of a dry bed of the Ravi river. Although covering a full extent of 150 hectares the property and its buffer zone comprises eight mounds and two cemeteries – the remainder being buried deep beneath the surrounding agricultural land or the modern village of Harappa. A modern sign posted network of concrete paths links most of these mounds. The site’s sequence stretches from the fourth to the second millennium BC and whilst there are a limited number of open sections, the only exposed structures, on mound AB and F, date to the third millennium. There are a number of historic structures scattered across the property including an un-conserved Gupta period temple, a partially conserved mosque, the recently excavated foundations of a Mughal serai and the ruins of a colonial police station. Modern purpose built structures are located close to mound E being adjacent to the access road. These include a museum (currently being enlarged), rest house, police house, public toilets, snack bar and children’s play area, store rooms in addition to the complex housing the Harappa Archaeological Research Project other modern features include a small cemetery to the east of mound AB. A modern reconstruction of a Bronze Age city wall and gate has been constructed on the southern edge of mounds E and ET alongside the access road.



The archaeological sequence at the site of Harappa is over 13 metres deep, spanning the period between the fourth and second millennium BC. Being located beside an old course of the Ravi River, its inhabitants had easy access to trade networks, aquatic food stuffs as well as water for drinking and cultivation, perhaps explaining why the site was occupied for so long. Indeed, the site represents a classic archaeological tell site, that is an artificial mound created by generations of superimposed mud brick structures. Its excavators have proposed the following chronology:

1.Ravi Aspect of the Hakra phase c.3300-2800 BC

2.Kot Dijian (Early Harappan) phase c.2800-2600 BC

3.Harappan Phase c.2600-1900 BC

4.Transitional Phase c.1900-1800 BC

5.Late Harappan Phase c.1800-1300 BC



The earliest evidence for occupation at the site, that of a small agricultural settlement, has been identified at the foot of the north-west corner of mound AB, but by third millennium BC all AB and much of E were also settled. The site continued to expand and reached its full extent of over 100 hectares during the mature of Harappan period between 2600 and 1900 BC. Harappa’s unique town plan is at its most obvious during this period with at least for self contained walled centres, each on its own raised mounds. Cemetery H represents the final transformation of this urbanised, literate civilisation into a mosaic of mobile cultures demonstrating little socio economic integration. Following its abandonment in the second millennium BC, the upper parts of its mud-brick structures eroded sufficiently to protect those below. Certainly the hoistoric occupation of parts of the site although frequently reusing Bronze Age bricks, had little impact. However, three more recent developments have greatly affected the property. The first, the removal of thousands of bricks for railway ballast in the 1850s, destroyed many of the late phases of occupation the second, the increasing use of irrigation agriculture, resulted in gross salination; whilst the third, archaeological excavations, exposed structures to the destructive nature of salination. As a result many of the structures exposed and conserved by Wheeler in the 1940s have been completely destroyed.

United Nations - Copyright © 1992-2008 UNESCO World Heritage Centre, All Rights Reserved | Terms / Policies | v3.0, Updated 01 Feb 2008

Manto,

The fact is that in the india of today, no one can get respect by taking a partisan stand, whether it is for lower caste or for any religion. That is why no one talks about ambedkar, other than some old tomers or people in his home state of maharashtra.

Our ex-president abdul kalam is a good example, he was not a muslim supporter, so is man mohan singh, not a sikh by any chance, so is sonia not a christian or italian by any means.

Those days of Jagjivan ram, the low caste eternal minister, jaffer sherif the muslim eternal minister etc are all gone.

Jayp,

Buddhism doesnt have any caste system, Ambedkar or no Ambedkar. Maybe Kaal bhai can shed some light upon it.

Jayp/Manto,

Here is the WHC list.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list

Archaeological Ruins at Moenjodaro (1980)
Buddhist Ruins of Takht-i-Bahi and Neighbouring City Remains at Sahr-i-Bahlol (1980)
Taxila (1980)
Fort and Shalamar Gardens in Lahore (1981)
Historical Monuments of Thatta (1981)
Rohtas Fort (1997)

Harappa isnt there but Mohenjo-daro and Taxila (both pre-Islamic) are very much there.

Regards

After reading your posts here, all I can say is that your mental capacity is severely diminished and therefore it is not worth it talking to a dimwit like yourself.

manto, take it easy. The man ambedkar introduced caste system into budhism, at the request of the budhists.

The man had some good ideas, but he became senile and he should be remembered for neo-budhism, like jinnah for TNT, he is the founder of neo-budhism.

or maybe his claim that Harappa is not a world heritage site.

or maybe his claim that Harappa is not a world heritage site.

I must say Jayp's statement that no one talks about Ambedkar anymore must rank as the best of his fibs.

69

Talk about purity and exclusivism. Spoken like a true Gandhian fascist.

Majumdar to Jayp,

"That is not true. BSP, the ruler in India's largest state, is committed to an Ambedkarite agenda. Besides most other parties at least pay service to him."

Facts have never been Jayp's forte. He comes up with bloopers like these all the time.

majumdar,

I rest my case with the neo-budhists, which bastardised budhism. Ambedkar has to get full credit for that.

65 and 67 addressed to Jayp.

Re: # 63

Another stupid comment from the master idiot. Harappa is a World Heritage Site.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/1878/

Manto mian,

Is the Swat Buddha still there or it has been completely done in ?

Regards

"The fact remains that no one talks about ambedkar now"

Your ignorance about Pakistan is one thing. Your ignorance about your own country is just down right wrong.

Ambedkar's birthday is a unique Indian festival which is celebrated with more enthusiasm than October 2. Far from being forgotten, Ambedkar continues to be remembered by millions of Dalits and untouchables who consider him rightly above and beyond any third rate fascist like Gandhi.

But you ofcourse are an idiot and this comment of yours will live in infamy on chowk.

Jayp,

(The fact remains that no one talks about ambedkar now. )

That is not true. BSP, the ruler in India's largest state, is committed to an Ambedkarite agenda. Besides most other parties at least pay service to him.

Jayp/Manto,

Mahatma Maudoodi was Maulana Gandhi's parting gift to Pakistan. He converted large chunks of Paki people into following a satyagrahi agenda.

It might interest both of you that Satyagrah is kaffir speak for struggle for truth while Jihad is Momin speak for the same.

Regards

Manto, you did not answer the question, why is pakistan refusing to nominate harappa in the world heritage list.

manot,

The fact remains that no one talks about ambedkar now. He is the guy who created prblems by converting hindus into budhists and a new caste neo-budhist had to be created to accord privilages to those low caste people.

Ambedkar died a senile person, and a low caste called neo-budhists, created at the insistance of the converted budhists is the lasting legacy of that person, and the proof that he had no understanding of india.

Mohenjodaro, Gandhara, Kitasraj, Harappa are cultural heritage of Pakistan. We are proud of it.. just like we are proud of our Mughal, sikh and British heritage.

Mohenjodaro, Gandhara, Kitasraj and Harappa are very well celebrated and appreciated in Pakistan and a visit to Pakistan or to a foreign mission of Pakistan will make it abundantly clear that there is ample celebration of our cultural heritage ...

All this talk of "ancient" symbols is fascinatingly similar to a fellow named Adolf Hitler (who shared a common world view with Gandhi ironically) ...

All the same you admit that Indian democracy doesn't have anything to do with the racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot Gandhi?

India's democracy is working because.. India has drawn on all its ancient symbols ( like ashok chakra ) in its nation building exercise.

Paistan has many symbols.. but has chosen not to use them……

Using ancient symbols can only make Pakistan stronger and a nation at peace with itself.

Infact... I'd say that Gandhians like Jayp and Jehadis are firmly allied:

Jinnah not our freedom fighter : Pak Islamists

http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=81094

Re: # 52

But you are as usual factually morally historically wrong.

Re: # 52

But you are as usual factually morally historically wrong.

Re: # 53

India's democracy has nothing to do with Gandhi. It has a lot more to do with a fellow named Ambedkar whose view of Gandhi the fascist was very similar to mine.

Re: # 48

Yes. Are you saying that Pakistani establishment is paying the price for following Gandhi?

I tend to agree.

If we are to judge Gandhi and the Ismaili today…. All we have to do is look at present day India and Pakistan . In India democracy has very deep roots now. Can the same be said about Pakistan ?????

majumdar,

The mutually exclusive nature of hindus and muslims as contained in teh TNT is essentially kafir notion. The idol worshippers have nothing in common with the muslims.

About the photos, I am not talking about some ones fault, I am only trying to show that TNT and jihad are fully aligned.

People and their lives are of no interest to me, it is the ideas, and I consider chowk to be a market place of ideas.

Re: # 49

No my foolish friend. What you are writing is "opinion". What I have quoted are historical facts.

As for people removing Jinnah's portrait... yes erstwhile Gandhians like the taliban and Mullah Fazlu are trying to remove his picture but we will defeat Gandhiism in all its forms.

There is never any basis for Jayp's claims.

"that is the jehadis fault"

Actually Majumdar poor Jayp is wrong on that count as well.

The father of Taliban and his party Maulana Fazlu recently refused to recognize Jinnah as the father of the nation.

http://pakistaniat.com/2007/02/09/jinnah-maulana-fazlur-rehman-jui-fr eedom-fighter/

Mullah Omar ... a true Gandhian... actually walked out a room because it had Jinnah's portrait.

Manto,

come up with something different, something that will help understand the past based on what is present. The past events and the ideas should eventually lead to teh present. I do not know and care whom you are quoting, that is only his opinion, does it help unedrstand teh present and help develop some policies, no none at all and to that extent what ever you post are senseless.

If people start removing his photos from govt offices and start crticising TNT, a new pakistan will emerge.

Manto..
"And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi’s encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same. "


Same can be said of Pakistani establishment which created Taliban... and that very establishment is being consumed the Taliban now...

Manto mian,

"racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot "

You missed the "misogynist" and "freak" part. I guess it has been a long time.

Jay,

(But jinnaha took the most abhorant parts of islam, the notion of kafir and politicised it.)

What is your basis for saying that?

(That is why all the jihadis do not object to the photos of that man)

That is the jihadis fault, not MAJ's.

Regards

PS: Hardly the introduction of non-violence co-existence won't you say?

Give Gandhi the credit for what he was... a blue blooded machiavellian and as Ambedkar described him a blue blooded Hindu fascist.

Mian Jayp,

Apparently you are having some sort of a problem with reading comprehension. Gandhi was a racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot who was non-violent only in name and was in actual reality the worst curse that happened to the subcontinent.

However... the issue here was Deobandi Islam. Gandhiji is great benefactor of Deobandi Islam in South Asia.

Allow me to repeat a few simple facts for you.

Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: ’It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE ’HIMALAYAN ERROR’ of Gandhiji’s leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali’s speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League’.

and

’Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against ’unbelievers’ has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by’.

and

A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: ’GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?’ Dr Anne Besant declared: ’The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything’. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.

http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm

Mahatma Gandhi’s attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.



Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them


The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.


And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi’s right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".

The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.


The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a�, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded�.


The Khilafat Movement


In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.


In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.�

Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power�. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death�.


Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this�.

In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws�.

According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently�.


The loss of political power in India and the threat posed by a combination of forces to the temporal authority of the caliph, was so worrisome for the leaders of the Muslim community that some of them felt compelled to issue fatwas ‘in favour of migration (hijra)’ from India.


Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued a fatwa which was published in the daily Ahl-e-Hadith of Amritsar on 30 July 1920. In his fatwa he urged Hijrat from India as an alternative to non-cooperation with the British. (YLH’s note: Was the Hijaz Born Azad a "Wahabi"... note "Ahle-Hadith)

Maulana Abdul Bari’s fatwa said, “every Muslim residing here should adopt non-cooperation but if (that is) impossible, should proceed for hijrat�. Maulana Shaukat Ali issued a statement on behalf of the Central Khilafat Committee, “expressing the hope that all dedicated Muslims would stay in India and work for the non-cooperation. Only if it did not succeed would they consider resorting to hijrat�. The impact of the fatwa was electrifying and thousands of Muslims preferred to leave the Dar al harb of India where their religious rights symbolized in the position of the Turkish Caliph was being infringed.


And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi’s encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same.

Manto,

Gandhi introduced religion into politics, his version of the religion was one of non violence, and co-existance with other religions.

I am sure that if one searches hard enough, there should be verses in koran also that talks about tolerance. But jinnaha took the most abhorant parts of islam, the notion of kafir and politicised it.

TNT is the political operationalisation of the islamic idea of kafir.

All religions have good and bad aspects, Gandhi took the best of hinduism and jinnah took the worst of islam.

60 years of pak history has proved my point.

Jihad is the next step of the kafir notion, kill the kafirs.

TNT to jihad is a narrow straight path, and 60 years is a reasonable time to achieve it.

That is why all the jihadis do not object to the photos of that man even though personal worship is taboo in islam.

Cultural nationalism is the only way to put this deobandi genie back in to the “bottle�

Ironic... that man who was an Ismaili, whose law minister was a Hindu and whose first foreign minister was an Ahmadi is so incompatible with Pakistan's pre-Islamic past according to the idiot here.

Meanwhile the Hijaz born Wahabi Abul-Al-Kalam Azad who was actually Saudi in culture is some sort of a secularist.


Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: ’It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE ’HIMALAYAN ERROR’ of Gandhiji’s leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali’s speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League’.

and

’Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against ’unbelievers’ has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by’.

and

A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: ’GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?’ Dr Anne Besant declared: ’The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything’. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.

http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm

Mahatma Gandhi’s attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.



Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them


The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.


And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi’s right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".

The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.


The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a�, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded�.


The Khilafat Movement


In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.


In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.�

Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power�. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death�.


Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this�.

In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws�.

According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently�.


The loss of political power in India and the threat posed by a combination of forces to the temporal authority of the caliph, was so worrisome for the leaders of the Muslim community that some of them felt compelled to issue fatwas ‘in favour of migration (hijra)’ from India.


Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued a fatwa which was published in the daily Ahl-e-Hadith of Amritsar on 30 July 1920. In his fatwa he urged Hijrat from India as an alternative to non-cooperation with the British. (YLH’s note: Was the Hijaz Born Azad a "Wahabi"... note "Ahle-Hadith)

Maulana Abdul Bari’s fatwa said, “every Muslim residing here should adopt non-cooperation but if (that is) impossible, should proceed for hijrat�. Maulana Shaukat Ali issued a statement on behalf of the Central Khilafat Committee, “expressing the hope that all dedicated Muslims would stay in India and work for the non-cooperation. Only if it did not succeed would they consider resorting to hijrat�. The impact of the fatwa was electrifying and thousands of Muslims preferred to leave the Dar al harb of India where their religious rights symbolized in the position of the Turkish Caliph was being infringed.


And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi’s encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same.

All three of you are making statements with no basis in facts. I say Khuda Hafiz not Allah Hafiz.


Ananth,

Bhai jaan... have you written your letter of protest for Babri Mosque. Personally I don't give a damn either way.


Laddu mian,

Perhaps you should turn on the PTV and see that Duffs is hardly the music being played on PTV. If you believe any of what you've written then you are a bigger idiot than previously anticipated.

And if Manto classics are such kufr why does the state run PTV (forget the 60 odd private channels) routinely film his dramas ?

JAYP,

By the way... the Saudi-inspired Deobandis were never in favor of the TNT ... they were in cahoots with the Congress. Should I repeat some of the statements from Abu Al Kalam Azad to drive home my point? Ironically... his Holiness Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani was opposed tooth and nail by Abu Al Kalam Azad and his Arya Samaj allies.

So before you take up the cause of Abdus Salam who lived and died a Pakistani patriot... you should condemn the first education minister of your secular state.

More and more pakistanis are using suadi names like mohamd bin aziz al latif .

Even the clothing is becoming more saudi.

By teh way, as YLH posted pakistanis dislike the saudis, but are they not pleading with the saudis for oil on credit.

Then of course the arbs are coming and shooting the endagered wild birds and animals as they are above the pak laws, because of respect for teh saudis and arabs in general.

In any case if islam is the only identity for the pakistanis, then saudis should be next to allah.

#33

You should proetst in front of the Saudi Embassy… to prevent them from demolishing “prophet�s house…. OR …. is the pakistani society too timid to protest the Saudi decisions ???

Replacing “kduda hafiz� with allah hafiz … is a sign of Saudi thought process dominating the Pakistani mind… religiously and culturally.

manto,

Nice to see you back, the one who posted that there are abdus salam roads in every city in pakistan.

Pak govt recognising gandhara heritage, my foot.

See pak govt web site pak.org and see for yourself what is pak history.

By linking the creation of pakistan with the religion based TNT, there is no way that gandhara etc. can be reconciled.

By teh way do you know that many of the historical sites are not listed by pakistan in the world heritage list, if I recall it is either harappa or mohanjodaro for fear that it will need to be protected.

Any recognition of a pre-islamic history will require the removal of that mans photos from govt offices as it would be a denial of TNT.

Re: # 33

"Most Pakistanis have a very low opinion of Saudis in general for many reasons ... including religious ones. They have clout because of the oil subsidies but that does not extend into cultural sphere."

Culture Sphere??
The only culture that Pakistani Islamic state envisages is that stated in the classical Islamic thought - only dhufs in music - no iconography apart from that considered permissible by the local maulavi- no literature that offends Islamic metaphysics- Manto classics are absolutely Kufr- no to TV - no to theatre - no to cinema- just make the women hide in chadars and rear the children. that leaves out poetry- which also cannot breach the Islamic metaphysics and its metaphors.
That is , in short, Islamic pure culture that Pakis do not follow because of the 'bad' hindu influences.(read Basant and Urdu)

. Saudi follow the Islamic culture in its 'purity' , Pakistanis only claim to be pure - I have seen the way these Sheikhs abuse and have a low opinion of Paki muslims!!

Re: # 33

". how about taking some responsibility for the demolition of a 16th century building in Ayodhya ... "

how about taking some responsibility for the demolition of hundreds of hindu temples and idols in Pakistan since partition??

Re: # 28

Manto ji,

No gandhara statute on the front page of this mission http://www.pakmission.ca/index.ASP

QED.

And so come the geniuses ... laddu and ananth who just know that Pakistanis follow all things Saudi.

No we don't. Most Pakistanis have a very low opinion of Saudis in general for many reasons ... including religious ones. They have clout because of the oil subsidies but that does not extend into cultural sphere.


Besides... before you start shedding crocodile tears about the Prophet's house which hasn't been demilished yet... how about taking some responsibility for the demolition of a 16th century building in Ayodhya ... where "secular" Hordes ran amok on the basis of some speculation about the birth of some god.

Incidentally a lot of sites from the Indus Valley civilisation are cropping up in North Western India, apparently more than a 100 sites have been excavated in Haryana alone plus Punjab, Western UP and Rajasthan as well.

Regards

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PS: Also... Gandhara civ receives a lot of government patronage and exposure.

There is absolutely no truth to claims that Pakistanis neglect their past. Infact... the Kitas Raj temples and their renovation shows that we preserve our past... unlike some other countries where historical mosques are razed down by "secular" hordes screaming "Ram Rajya" because some mythical god was "born" in that place.

The Gandhara statues as well as Mohenjodaro civilization is boldly displayed at every foreign mission of Pakistan. You may visit to check the same.

My sincere advice to Indians is to kindly stop making everything into their own spin.

Re: # 23

bhai Saheb,

Quran ki ayaat ko red flag to mat karo!!

upar wale ka khauf to karo??

I sincerely hop Pkistan takes pride in its past, and not follow the lead of Abrahamic archeologists, who never dated anything before "gensis".

I also hope pakistan does not follow th saudi model and dstroy all that pre- dates advent of Islam in tha country.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/shame-of-the-hou se-of-saud-shadows-over-mecca-474736.html

Re: # 24 You are pointing to the right direction, we have not been able to know its depth! Hope to write on comparative civilizations of world Insha Allah!

Great article. Mahrgah is proof that Pakistan is as much the cradle of human civilization as the fertile crescent.

Re: # 21 May Bhagwan let you face Karma with courage!

Re: # 19 thanks!

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Yes, ijaz_gul, you wrote about some intriguing discoveries you made in your travels. Clearly, the land right up to Afghanistan has seen some fascinating history a long time ago.

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mahfari, at least this is a very interesting subject for many of us. As and if more knowledge develops, it will be very helpful to those who are interested. So best of luck and Godspeed to researcher, and thanks for bringing this information to us.

Re: # 7 Dear this reference to Holy Prophet peace be upon him was in the context of atttributing extremism to Muslims , and every one has right to differ, but my point was that extremism is a menace and has no relationship with any sepcific religion.

As to population these are estimates available extrapolated with the avaialble number of mounds , remains and possible further archeological sites, and yes these are estimates , if they can be corrected upon nice idea , but this is not basic crux of the issue.If you have different sharing please share it .

And the point that Mehergarh being differnet , then raising point of continuity is not contradictory in itself, it is like saying that Anglo Saxons civilization of twentieth century is different from eleventh,12th century Anglo Saxon civilization , but it has continuity of certain features.

It is in the context of extrapolating the physical doamisn of Indua to the place which is geographical in surmountable and as to ideas, aritfacst they do travel.

Unfortunately picturs have not been added yet in article , but if we take the pictures of birds which are 8000 years old then comapre them to pictures in World Art Museum Pictures in Beijing about anicent China of 4 thousand years old then they are similar! But Mehergarh preccceded them by whooping 4000 years!!!! Now what will you say about this similarity and other differnces?

the point of differnce is in its originality, scope, physical terrain and the point raised after accepting these facts is that these ideas did not die , they travelled further to Indus... the evolution of humanity works like this. So where is contradiction?

As to ideological and interpolations CORRUPTION please make it explicit and clear, then we can discuss furhter. By the way , there is a nice saying facts are sacred , opinions are free!If the ideas are irratioanl and not supported by reason and logic , let su chaneg and reform them , but outright rejection ... does not appeal to rational standards!

thanks for taking interest in article!

Re: # 11 thank you very much for sharing information , please let us know more.and as to other points, here may be older human dwellings than Mehrgarh , and there are but the stress point is the level of evolutionary devel;opemnt attained.

Re: # 14 I have separately sent the pictures and reference portion to eb addeed , but here i reproduce the note portion

1.http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7085/pdf/440755a.pdf
2. The development of the technique of carbon dating is the most scientific method to gauge the age of the artifacts. It determines the age of old artifacts as per the proportion of carbon in the artifacts
4.Personal observation and experience in Punjab Pakisatn.
Walker and Erlandson 1986.
5.http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7085/pdf/440755a.pdf
6.This is proven by the examples quoted above in the article
7.http://www.answers.com/Mehrgarh
This is the first urban civilization of the world see
8.http://www.harappa.com/indus/indus4.html
9.http://varnam.org/history/2004/1 0/mehrgarh.php
10.http://www.harappa.com/script/maha1.html

Re: # 13 Please read the article again and the crux is that there are scattered evidences to the affect that there were nomadic and pastoral units living in the areas mentioned and Catal Hayuk .. see its pictures of site and compare the artifacst found at Mehrgarh and then compare it with the artifactzs and number of units, theri sophistication level, range adn scope and where was the first dentistry performed? Is there evidence that in Catal Hayuk or other places barley is found, signs of domestication of animals?
Are there signs of cotton made stuff in catal hayuk? is there any sign?
Thsi article does not say that it is the first sign of human activity, yes it does say thta it is the first organized, albeit more civilized and developed area of civilization and it has a consisten and continuous history, which makes it unique and different. Read the details provided by jarrige and then read the statement written in the text of article.

As to yangtze , at the moment I am in China and there official archelogical refernces go back to Xia dynasty which began around 2800BC and before that there are sporadic evidence one of them being symptoms of agriculture 10000 years ago ... but it does not show continuous trend of sustained civilization befor Xia dynasty of 2100 BC and even that is legendary and its archelogical evidence is not conclusive and its yellow Emperor is considered the fore father of Chinese. see the official refrence at http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_aboutchina/node_63.htm
and please talk in specific terms and raise pertinent question as to its specific contours and directions. I am sorry as to pictures as I have sent them to editors.any other point please elt me know?

It would also behoove the author to provide references for the assertions he has made in reference to Mehrgarh.

Where are you getting all this information for? Whose ideas are these?

Please provide citations.

The author's assertion about no civilization being older than 4000 BCE has no merit.
The following statement by the author is completely erroneous,

"But when the comparative studies are conducted then we come to know that all these civilization developments except Mehrgarh are not older than 4000 B.C in Middle East , Europe, China, Asia and other parts of world. In town of Jericho there have been found large quantity of grains ranging back to 12000 years old, but there are no settled town found there before about 4000 B.C."

The first known human civilization by modern man was seen in Catal Huyuk, Turkey from around 7500 BCE. Please google it.

Also the Yangtze farmers were farming millet around 9000 BCE.

The author would do well to carefully proofread his papers and carefully research before making absolute statements.

Ijaz,

Do you have any pictures of paintings?

haideri

Let’s keep this discussion to archeology only.
Between 1979-81, I happened to work with an exploration company around Dera Bughti, Dadar, Sibi and Pirkoh. Just hanging around for adventure, I found fossil shells, star fish and sea horses. Then at Pathar Nullah, where the spring comes out of a cave, I saw wall paintings, that I also mentioned to Tahmad in interacts. Then in 1991-2, I went to Zhob (Old Fort Sandeman) and in the Neeli Kach Valley saw caves with coloured painting. It was then I learnt of the Cro Mognon Man. In Dera Bughti and Mehrgarh, I met a retired Brigadier doing some archeological work at his own.
I shared this information with the archeology department headed by Dr. Dani. A professor there took me to the latest discoveries along Islamabad Highway and specially showed me a mound on which we now find Unity, Faith, and Discipline. As per his assessment these were the oldest human dwellings ever discovered, perhaps even older than Mehrgarh. That when mu passion for Anthro was born.
Searching through the Holy Bible for references to India/Indus/Schinde and found the name Pishon in the Book of Genesis. Some scholars referred to it as Indus while others as Nara/Sarasvati. It was then my quest began.

Re: # 6 I think dear you are not aware of the facts on ground and how can acts of certian lunatics be a criteria to judge whole of the society?

Is whole indian society like Modi of Gujerat?I think no he is an aberration... if yes then why to equate pakisatn with zeal of a certain few?

Re: # 5 It is too judgemental opinion and we have many historinas who have written extensively on these subjects and their research is done in independant capacity.
in our text books we have mention of dr, Abdus Salam Sahib and a Centre of Excellence on his Name in Mathematics in Government College University Lahore.

Our ideas have problems no doubt but they exist and are discussed and eductaed peopel have interst in them. Every people have their own undrestanding of past... and yes it is truth we have lack of passion on the subject of histroy and also popualr biases. But this very article is an attempt to know more and discover our roots and place.

There was a civilization in Pakistan before 700 AD? Vow!! This is news for all of us......

"....not try to find all answers to its problems in some religious text..."

"Well said there is a saying of Holy Prophet...."

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With due respect to mahmood mahmood ji, ananth, you are wasting your time trying to discuss values and religion across an unbridgeable gulf.

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mahmood mahmood ji, except for its ideological corruption and interpolations, the article appears to be about a very important topic. Hopefully, you took care to check the veracity of statements about population size etc.

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Still, was there any good reason why you made very strong opening statements about this being a very different civilization than that of Indus Valley, and then, went on to describe everything that shows a continuity?

What in your view makes this such a very different "civilization."

Ananth 07,

It is improper to compare pakistan with Iran. Iran has a legacy of a great civilisation and that is why teh people protested. Look at the recent distruction of budha painitngs in pakistan, no one even wrote about it.

For teh people to vlaue something, it should be portrayed as something of value by the society, in the school books. K for kafir education do not leave much option for a new generation other than destroying the budhas and everything non islamic.

mahfari 2,

It is not question of respecting pak choices. I was only pointing out that the contents of this article cannot be in any pak text books, it cannot be something that is discussed by the pak elites like YLH.

It is something to be denied, a little like Abdus Salaam. Many know about him, but no one will dare to talk in public.

Re: # 3 Well said there is a saying of Holy Prophet peace be upon him that religious extremsim is to be avoided, but now we haev extremsits of all sorts who profess religion and also those who do,nt profess religion.
It is curse of our times.

Iran takes pride in Persepolis. Even at the height of Islamic revolution in the 1980s people protested when mullahs tried to destroy Persepolis.

If Pakistan can see culture and religion in different lights, and not try to find all answers to its problems in some religious text, it can only do good to it.

Re: # 1 The people haev the right to decide about theri choices and they decide about the choice of embelms and flags. It was adopted by a parliament and it is theri decison whihc we should respect.

What about when Harijans, low castes and Naxalites have theri own states along with Naga Land , mizoram and Kashmir. this is not isue of Pakisatn this centrifugal tendency plagues all of South Asia.

A good article mahmood, but irrelevant. If this kind of topics were discussed in the schools, it would have provided a unifying thread to the pak society.

A little like India, it is the ashoka chakra on the flag, it is the mythology of mahabarat, it is the ayurveda, and the pride about the pachatantra stories that has held India together from falling apart on the linguistic lines.

So when will the crecent and star on teh pak flag be replaced by some gandhara statues. Sorry, that will be haram, a human image. So when will be the partition along sindhi and punjabi and tribal lines.