Mehrgarh...The Lost Civilization

Re: # 128 Oh my Allah... what wishful thinking. It is a fact of history... inspiration is still the bases which inspired Muslims to stand together and difffferent from biased fellow Indians of 1940's

...the debate of civilizations of south asia is an interesting one.......the common mistake people make is to take present-day national boundaries and map them to historical civilizations.......when in fact, india and pakistan (and afghanistan and sri lanka and bangladesh etc.) are very young entities......

........a better way to look at history is to define historically strong civilizational boundaries in the region based on more concrete characteristics....such divisions will rely on languages, cultures, physical appearances, religion, customs, prominent geogrphical boundaries (rivers, mountains etc.) etc.......

.......for example, pakistan is not a civilization.....neither is india nor afghanistan....and bangladesh is half a civilization......

........pakistan west of the indus is part of the afghan civilization......other than under ashoka and under a few rulers, here and there, it was part of afghan......if anything the conquests occured from afghan into south asia, rather than vice-versa........

east of indus, pakistan contains one complete civilization and two incomplete one......sind is a complete civilization in pakistan (roughly speaking).....punjab is another, with a portion in india.....kashmir is a third, with a portion in india......though pakistan's kashmir, for all practical purposes, is a part of the punjab civilizations (the northern areas can be divided into tiny civilizations of their own).......

so sind is really the only full civilization in pakistan.....

bangladesh is half a civilization.....its other part being in india.....afghanistan is most of the afghan/pushtun civilization combined with central asian civilizations in the north.....sri lanka is half-tamil and half sinhalese (??)....hence bangladesh is the only country, in south asia that is not a combination of civilizations.....

......india has a long list of civilizations, in one country......each indian state/province (almost) is a civilization)...each state/province's inhabitants have their own looks, own language, own culture, own alphabet etc.....tamils, bengalis, punjabis, andhra, south, north etc.......

historically, south asia was, thus, like europe.....in fact, even more diverse than europe.....it would have returned to the same state, had an odd incidence of british invasion not occured.......

so when people are looking for their background.......they cannot look at hinduism or islam, or india or pakistan, or hindustan or bharat etc........they need to look at which civilization they belonged to.......

and in many cases, that will change as families migrate.....one side of my ancestory traces its way from rajasthan to kashmir to punjab (and now to north america).....none of it is or was ever indian or hindustani.....at best i can say, currently, it is pakistani, as it is currently settled in pakistan........historically, it is either kashmiri, punjabi or rajasthani......it has nothing to do with bihar or orrissa or kerela.......or nearly every other part of india (and sri lanka and afghanistan)........

i think the impact of religion is quite decisive in india and pakistan and how they view history......e.g. punjabis in pakistan hail ghaznavi as a hero, even though he was an afghan who invaded punjab and (probably) killed their ancestors.......while indian punjabis consider ashoka a hero, even though he was a bihari who invaded punjab also and (probably) killed their ancestors......

primarily becuase ghaznavi was a muslim and ashoka was a hindu/bhudhist...

Re: # 130 good points! But the count of civilizations, even if taken from your point of view has missed many CIVILIZATIONS in India and Pakisatn and overall South Asia.

Afghan Civilization? it is most interesting point as there was no land named as Afghanistan before Durranis... was it?

As to Bengal being an independant entity.. they had no doudt theri independant thoughts and lakhnawati had its unique persoanlioty.

But all these things coem later. the time this article deals is unique in whoile world as to its develiopmental level, then comparisons can not be made with its contemporaries as when it died or was near death, othber civilizations of world were rising.

it should eb kept in mind , then discussion will have clarity fo thought, and religion is one factor in understanding civilizations not the whole one!

bulleya, mahfari

Bhaiyon, as I wrote elsewhere, these debates, just like debates on terrorism that used to rage on Chowk until yesterday (and, which will surely come again), are STRICTLY Pakistani in both their origin and their limit.

And these debates will be as productive for Pakistani friends as were those hyper-passionate debates on definitions of terrorism.

mahfari #: yes, within the context of this article, the society would not have been developed enough to have created many civilizations, in south asia......

however, moving forward south asia did develop into many civilizations......before getting into that debate, once has to first define exactly what the characteristics of a civilization are......what are its building blocks.....

what they aren't are the national boundaries of present-day south asian countries.......hence the idea of a pakistani looking at his indian identity and an indian looking at his pakistani identity etc. are nonsensical arguments....

the characteristics of a civilization, in my opinion are factors that place human beings into a collective, and influence the development of commonalities, over centuries....

...at the top of the list would be distinct geogrphical features which provide sustenance or divide communities.....rivers, moutain ranges, oceans, forests, etc......

then i would say is the development of language, which takes a long time to develop.....after that would be physical features, which develop over generations of mating....after that would be cultures and customs......then, perhaps religion......

.....all these, then, create a distinct civilization......

based on this, south asia has many distinct civilizations - some divided across national borders.....all divided acros religions......one can name them, whatever one wants......

pakistan contains a portion of the afghan/pushtun, punjabi, kashmiri (also punjabi), and sindhi civilizations......you can sub-divide them further, but these are the minimum......

india has a whole long list......

so anyone asking a pakistani to recognize his hindu or indian civilizational ancestory is being ridiculous....there is no, "indian" historical civilization....india is a 200 year old administrative entity created by the british.......had they invaded iran, it would be a part of that india also.....in present day, india is not a single civilization.....it is a country, consisting of a combination of many civilizations.....pakistan is the same......two hundred years from now, these civilizations maybe part of other countries, or independent, or still where they are...

what is more logical is to ask a pakistani punjabi if he/she realizes his/her historical punjabi civilizational history......and whether a sindhi does so for sind and a pathan for pushtun etc.......

looking at south asian history through the window of present day india and pakistan is illogical......

Re: # 132 A place called heritage of humanity... how it can be restricted to geographical limitations?

Is search fro origins of civilization only limited to Pakisatn?

Think in broader terms, and it is not the crux of article to emphasise, except that this place lies in Pakisatn at present, but to search fro facsta nd truth.

You think knowledge has area specification? Get over biases dear, and be a dispassioante contributor!

Be a human being... true one not in name only!Human heritage is for all not rstricted to any region,creeed,religion or natioanlity.

Re: # 133 and looking at histroy without knowing norms and ideas of apst is also illogical!Is,nt it so?

past not apst*

In another 50 years most boundaries in south Asia would have become soft boundaries. If france and germany can have the same currency … why not India and Pakistan. Acknowledging common heritage like Mehrgarh is the way forward… and to make the borders soft faster.

Best way to bring down the animosity is to have at least a few subjects like the common heritage common to all students in the sub continent.

Re: # 137 Nice ideas, we need to work for that. But the road moves by facing truth and accepting the independance and by give and take.
I pray for that day!

Sceintific study of Man could be key to future provided we are ready to pursue it in a very thoroughgoing manner eschewing all preconcieved ideas. People who think that they are very scientific are often themselves immersed in fixed beliefs they are unwilling to give up. Science demands open minded approach to everything. Open minded approach does not mean Broadminded approach. Broadminded means accepting any BS. Open minded means willingness to check every assumption again and again. Sceintific approach means being arrogant in belief that its methods always works at the same time being humble to challenge ones own most ardent deeply held beliefs.

Ananth07's #137 dream of soft boundries is Broadmindedness. It is not going to work. Unless Pakistan behaves responsibly. France and Germany have soft boundries but they have many treaties and systems of preventing cross-border crimes also. And by and large they adhere to those treaties honestly.

Re: # 139Nothing is absolutely true or false always. There is saying every dispute has three different outlooks, yours, your opponent's and the true one!So everyhting can not be blamed on ourselves or opponents.

A long journey begins from a small step! So let us travel!with open mind as Krishna MAurti said, free yourminds of all preconceived ideas and think!

"with open mind as Krishna MAurti said, free your minds of all preconceived ideas and think!"

mahmood mahmood ji, we would love to be open-minded like you but much to our regret and loss we CAN'T!

Krishna Murthi was a wrong example. He was a great believer like you. Hence, like you, he put faith in no preconceptions. But our hearts are closed :(

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At best, we can look upon you in pure awe as you valiantly discover separate civilization after separate civilization, every fear years, beyond every few yards, behind every rain-drenched hill side and big tree.

Re: # 141 what should I say?

#140 Posted by mahfari

We Indians equate scientific facts known at some point in time as science itself. Partly because of the education system we inherited from British which merely accentuated already defective culture of Guru-Shishya tradition in which Guru is Pita-Samaan and therefore always right in some sense because you could not insinuate Guru to be wrong. This subverts tendentiousness to inquiry which almost invariably leads to challenge of an old and established idea. If thought process of Guru cannot be studied because it belonged to a Pita-Samaan Guru then old ideas cannot be challenged.

Science is not body of knowledge arrived at and frozen in some point in time. Science is how that body of knowledge was arrived at, the method that was used, the logic behind it, the epistemology behind it. Nothing is outside of ambit of scientific inquiry. Scientific inquiry itself can be subject matter a scientific inquiry. How scientific inquiry can be led astray by human propensity to denial and distortion, to pride and arrogance, to hypocrisy, to neurosis and psychosis, to errors in thinking -- all these can also be proper subject matter of scientific inquiry. In this inquiry a prophet could be a psychotic person. Or may be slow in admitting mistake. Or just plain and simply slow in thinking or outright wrong.

Re: # 143 But if this process of psyhchosis changes the lives of millions with visible positive change, then what about such issues? They need to be scientifically checked I completely agree. But do we check it scientifically? HAve we dared enough to check ideas of Prophets? Have we courage enough to look what is the essence of ideas of prophets ?

Let us embark on this journey!