Pakistan's Universities - Problems and Solutions

They say about computers - garbage in garbage out; and same goes for the systems, such as educational system in Pakistan. What Pervez highlighted in his articles was stating the obvious. Actually, Pervez did not say any thing about the root cause: a student, almost by default, would refer to the text book if that's what the student did through out his/her academic years. There are no text books taught from class zero in developed countries' qualification frameworks! Also, what is obvious from the Pervez articles the fact that no one can bring reforms without 'people' - right people. What HEC or anyone for that matter can do to improve things in the education sector of Pakistan other than utlising what any body can access in Pakistan with regards to human resources. Bringning alien teachers will not solve the problem unless the aliens are brough just about on every level - elementary to the higher level.

I do not want to take the credit of good work away from the HEC personnel. They have doen many good things but the results are only representative of the community they are dealing with.

Did any one ever notice what happened to the matric pass students many years ago who could not get admission in any tertiary college due to poor marks? Well they all went to to do PTC course followed by a CT course and starting teaching to whom there was any glimmer of hope - our children!!!

Anyways, I personally think where Pervez has been really good in outlining the ussue, especially with regards to the research publications, he was equally harsh rather diverting the issue politically and getting no where eventually. I am sure that the days will come when our Ph. D. scholars will learn to research and publish original work Insha Allah.

It doesnt mean that we have less intelligent people here but the point is promotion of wrong culture.

The culture of promoting importance of degrees is not healthy for a nation .If it has to stand on firm grounds.

Any ways there are people who are sincere to their goal .They are genuinely interested in doing reasearch & they are also getting benefit from HEC policies.So I cant totally ignore their efforts .

In my opinion HEC is just increasing the number of PhDs .As now in all universities here in Pakistan the promotion of teachers is dependent on having the PhD degree.Therefore there is a race to get it.Emphasis is not on quality but on just getting a piece of paper to claim qualification.This kind of environment is forcing others also to follow the foot steps of seniors .As no body wants to be left behind .

Plus the monetary benefits associated with all research programs is a big attraction .Due to this all who have no job yet are taking admissions to enroll for PhD and M.Phil programs.

Re: # 194
I Indian context...
Low caste does not mean low in IQ. The culture of using brain more for constructive purpose has to be culminated ( a typical boy/girl in middle class Brahmin family will start the morning with books and that continues until the boy/girl go to bed. In between take bath, play, go to school, take food etc...). I have couple of friends from reserved community.Just for lack of awareness and guidence (family culture), they had failed to produce proper result in exams. For moslems, we need to keep away islam out off the person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VW3abjIUgQ

This poetry I have read in my school days.

What Pakistan needs is an Institute of Learning Disability and a Commission On Low IQ. The commission will investigate the causes of Low Pakistani IQ. The institute will research new ways to teach advanced topics to dumb people. India should do the same. Both countries need such institutes and commissions. India especially. Because it has a sizable Muslim and low caste population.

philo,

OK, I read #807, but fail to see what’s bothering you now.

+++

Eklavya,

You still seem upset about our previous interact. Sorry, didn’t mean to offend you …

Anyway, do read #182 from your boss (grin) … but feel free to continue kissing his rear. Hey, if it works for you, who am I to argue?

Re: # 191
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina40928p14.htm
Nice explanation....

Re: # 190 nkg ["... post this in any jokes ..."]

Sir/Madam

This is no joke. This is what our scholarly brothers in Iran have deduced from authentic photographic data collected by NASA. I didn't make it up myself. Go check it out here:

http://islamicvoice.com/November2007/TheMuslimWorld/?PHPSESSID=731e6ee2 39994da62538bd0725

It's the fifth item from the top. Two items below the Halal vaccine for Meningitis

...SR

Re: # 178

NASA Photos Prove Splitting of Moon

Tehran


Ans: Please post this in any jokes website.
A revolving body like moon can not be kept in its shape by joining two hemispheres... Is this moon theory, collected from Quoran? Then that must be a ultimate joke book ( better than santa-banta comedy).

Re: # 182
Hindus seem to have evolved from a really smelly species of apes.

:-) ha ha ha!!!!
Like Hindus are violent intolerent and islam is peaceful religion and they stay harmonious with others in countries like Britain, India, Gernmany, France, Thailand, Burma. Mo was very virtuous person (battle of Badr, raping 6 year old girl at the age of 53).
Keep it up....

#187 Posted by mohar11 on February 3, 2008 11:20:02 am


Zeemax - that looks like a "club class" super luxury flight


yup...club gitmo...water sports free...(mostly waterboarding)

Zeemax - that looks like a "club class" super luxury flight, doesn't it? a lot of leg space, ha ha ... and completely free, too...

HAHA...reality..

Ethnic minority employment gap remains significant in UK
London, Feb 2, IRNA

UK Minorities-Employment
The gap between the employment rate for the ethnic minorities and the general population in the UK remains significant and could take another 30 years to close, a government watchdog warned Friday.

The National Audit Office (NAO) found that the employment rate was only 60 per cent among the country's 10 per cent ethnic minority population, compared with 74 per cent for the general population, just 1.3 percentage points lower than the gap in 1987.

"The reality is that over recent years, while there has been a slow but steady improvement, the overall reduction in the employment gap has been modest," the auditor general said.

He warned that unless the Department for Work and Pension (DWP), which is responsible for helping people into employment, is prepared to do more to reach out to the ethnic minority communities, "prospects for increasing their employment rate remain bleak."
The DWP's strategy was found to be fragmented and lacking continuity, adversely affecting efforts to reduce ethnic minority unemployment.

The gap was said to be costing Britain's economy Pnds 8.6 billion (Dlrs 17 bn) each year and reasons included ethnic minorities facing discrimination and unequal treatment.

The country's ethnic minority population is diverse and widely spread with the biggest concentration in London, but the highest unemployment rate is among Muslims, with only 44 per cent of Bangladeshis and 47 per cent of Pakistanis having jobs.

This compared with 69 per cent of Indians,66 per cent of Black Caribbeans and 62 per cent Black Africans who performed better in the labour market.

For most ethnic groups, the employment rate for women was also well below that of the employment rate for men. Currently, 69 per cent of ethnic minority men are employed compared with 51 per cent of ethnic minority women.

Again Bangladeshi and Pakistani women were confirmed as having the lowest employment rates overall, and the largest employment rate differences between males and females, with differences of 36 per cent and 38 per cent respectively.

Despite the high achievements of some, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were also shown to be most likely to be unqualified, with 30 per cent and 37 per cent having no qualification compared to 14 per cent for the overall population.

this is how brit-pakis like zeemax and ally can close the income gap with brit-indians...and the 47% to 69% employment gap...

no...not education...more welfare...

Multiple wives will mean multiple benefits

By Jonathan Wynne-Jones
Last Updated: 2:36am GMT 03/02/2008

Have your say Read comments

Husbands with multiple wives have been given the go-ahead to claim extra welfare benefits following a year-long Government review, The Sunday Telegraph can reveal.
# Have your say: Should multiple wives get recognition from the state?

Even though bigamy is a crime in Britain, the decision by ministers means that polygamous marriages can now be recognised formally by the state, so long as the weddings took place in countries where the arrangement is legal.
advertisement

The outcome will chiefly benefit Muslim men with more than one wife, as is permitted under Islamic law. Ministers estimate that up to a thousand polygamous partnerships exist in Britain, although they admit there is no exact record.

The decision has been condemned by the Tories, who accused the Government of offering preferential treatment to a particular group, and of setting a precedent that would lead to demands for further changes in British law.

New guidelines on income support from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) state: "Where there is a valid polygamous marriage the claimant and one spouse will be paid the couple rate ... The amount payable for each additional spouse is presently £33.65."

Income support for all of the wives may be paid directly into the husband's bank account, if the family so choose. Under the deal agreed by ministers, a husband with multiple wives may also be eligible for additional housing benefit and council tax benefit to reflect the larger property needed for his family.

The ruling could cost taxpayers millions of pounds. Ministers launched a review of the benefit rules for polygamous marriages in November 2006, after it emerged that some families had benefited financially.

Haha ... mirchi!

long haul? you mean this one...

I was flying back yesterday on a long-haul and there was a hindu sitting next to me. He smelt so bad that I had to fight with the crew to change my seat. Surely we must have not evolved from the same species of monkeys. Hindus seem to have evolved from a really smelly species of apes.

any more than I believe man was evolved from fish who grew feet then came ashore then eventually took the shape of monkeys who started to walk upright through necessity of nature and also learnt to fly as birds.


Is this what they teach in paki schools in the chapter/course for evolution?

no wonder education in the land of the pure is so messed up..

i think madrassahs are a step up...

... of-course, nowhere I'm implying one can get power from Jinns, any more than I believe man was evolved from fish who grew feet then came ashore then eventually took the shape of monkeys who started to walk upright through necessity of nature and also learnt to fly as birds.

But this is not an argument. Just a clarification towards the intent of my question below.

#178 Posted by SR,

SR, I have never understood one thing. Perhaps you could shed light. I have asked hamidm too before but with no satisfactory response. Gill Saheb is probably an exception which proves the rule. Yourself and hamidm etc are the rule.

Atheism means no God or religion. Right? Which is fine and I guess that would imply leading a life moment to moment without any burdens or responsibility of Faith , which is fine too and religions do not insult that approach - they just propagate their own ...

My question is why do atheists insult religion with such venom? Why do they insult something which doesn't exist? Why do they not just argue their own approach? What's their beef? Religion (all religions) do not attack atheists, nor insult them since they consider them to be a fact of life ... and let them carry on with their beliefs.

How many religious people, even on this anon site let alone real life, have you seen who habitually and consistently insult atheists at every opportunity as if obsessed?

Your italicization of Muhammad in the interactor's name did not go unnoticed. Wonder why you had to do that.

Answer? I'm really curious and would like to know. How has religion harmed you personally? Why would you like to defame it? I recall your even posting something once re 9/11 implying it could only be some great diabolical power which carried it out. Surely that great diabolical power would not have been, in your well considered and educated opinion, some bearded men sitting in caves. Was I wrong? If I was, was it that event alone or there's something else here which I'm missing?

Thanks for the clarification. Just wanted to remove cobwebs.

Regards.

Re: # 145 Muhammad Hamid wrote: ["... focus on providing primary education ... instead of creating another bureaucracy ... wasting good money on producing 'scholars' ... to harness the power of jinns to solve the energy cirsis ..."]

Shame on you Muhammad Hamid... The idea of getting energy from the jinnat is a damn good one. All we need to do is focus on the scientific research and apply the principles of the Quran, and before you know it, shezaam...!!! we'll have regained our glorious past inshallah

Just see what our Muslim brothers next door have found out by taking the approach I suggest above:

NASA Photos Prove Splitting of Moon

Tehran

The opening verses of the Sura Al-Qamar in the Qur’an talk about the miracle of Shaq-ul-Qamar (the splitting of the moon into two), and new photographs of the moon taken by NASA prove the miracle, said a prominent Islamic scholar. Addressing a conference titled “Splitting of the Moon, Miracle of Prophet Mohammad, Based of NASA’s Studies� at Tehran’s Imam Khomeini Mosalla, Ayatollah Abdulkareem Biazar Shirazi read out the first verse’s of Sura Al-Qamar: “The hour drew nigh and the moon did rend asunder� (54:1) and said “This verse is about a miracle performed by the Prophet (Pbuh) upon the request of the people of Makkah. The conference was organised by the cultural deputy of the Islamic Azad University on the sidelines of the 15th International Qur’an Exhibition, Scientists at NASA have determined that along with spiral and circular splits, there is a straight split going through the middle of the moon. They believe the split is the result of a meteor impact on the moon, whereas the shape of the split clearly shows that the moon has once been divided in two parts and then the two parts have come together again.

IINA

#176 Posted by gupangam on February 2, 2008 4:10:28 pm


Is there a Lower Education Commission (LEC)


No..but there is a JEC...jihadi education commission..otherwise known as the pakistani army...

I have a question prompted by some of the comments here. Is there a Lower Education Commission (LEC) in Pakistan that is spending at least as much as HEC (if not more) on achieving the same kind of (claimed) revolution in education at all levels from kindergarten to year 12 (Intermediate/Secondary?
Here is anther example of the scrambled priorities of the Pakistani government.
In the late 90's I remember passing the Lower Mall Road in Lahore near the Government Central Model High School at its opening hours. There were hundreds of young students dangerously trying to cross the road to get to the school. There was not a single traffic crossing anywhere in Lahore for children, the future of Pakistan. However, only a few hundred metres further up the road the Punjab government was expanding the shrine of Hazrat Data Gunj Bukhsh at a cost of Rs 200 million. Isn't there something seriously wrong here?
Can't the World Bank see that it is not the universities and the higher education in Pakistan but the early education centres neglected by the Pakistan government that are the main hot beds of terrorism funded by the Saudi money?

Re: # 170 sattar2

''but I am not sure what disagreement you are referring to. I did see your post #816 where you rambled incoherently''

i was referring to the interact #807 not 816.Anyway.

arjun, in sattar sahib, you will find a lot of faith, but no logic.

#170 Posted by sattar2 on February 1, 2008 9:09:39 am


It emphatically prescribed belief in One, Absolute God, as opposed to numerous gods represented by 360-odd idols.


didn't the jews beat you to the punch?

Re: # 171
Mr. Hoodbhoy is a miserable pessimist...

Ans: Here goes the story of a broken man in West Bengal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhash_Mukhopadhyay_%28physician%29

Wh en the existing system is so wrotten, sometimes you loose patience...

Mr. Hoodbhoy is a miserable pessimist. Always a prophet of doom and gloom. I have been listening to him for last 15 years or so and never heard anything positive. I can see his presence in Pakistan and Quaid-i-Azam University has not made any difference to the University Education in Pakistan? I think Prof. Hoodbhoy should once move from his seat and take up the responsibilty of doing something positive to contribute. We shall all be very grateful. Have he ever written any article outlining any positive facts however few they may be???

tahmed,

Viewing the issue from a slightly different angle shows another major weakness in your position.

If Quran wanted to split the inheritance between son and daughter in 1:1 ratio, why did it not say so? Why did it set the ratio at 2:1 instead? What stopped Allah from making a simple statement of 1:1?

Note that Quran took radical stand on several issues: It emphatically prescribed belief in One, Absolute God, as opposed to numerous gods represented by 360-odd idols. This alone upset the social, political, and economic structure of the society. Quran also struck down racial discrimination, which was deeply rooted in the society. Furthermore, on the issue of righteousness, it put women squarely on equal footing with men. These are but a few examples … I hope you get the point.

But on the issue of inheritance, Quran chose to pussy-foot around the issue? Your view remains speculative and unsubstantiated.

+++

philo (#154);

I viewed the page and the following posts, but I am not sure what disagreement you are referring to. I did see your post #816 where you rambled incoherently. Try to be more specific and coherent this time …

#162 Posted by Urstruly:

Urstruly,

Now you are taking me to be a fool. Sir, I understand all that. The article is very well written and I know what the article says. If you read the article carefully you will note that at times the state/lawmaker etc. has to regulate how the residual (if any) has to be divided (the article clearly and rightly states this, of course it is beyond Mr. Katz's comprehension). Now I am sure that lawmakers must have seiously thought over it and even argued about it and must have come up with different solutions at different times. I am interested in this DEBATE.

Regards.

Re: # 160

"every community has its idiots but the mohammedans have more than their fair share ... as a matter of fact it is hard to find many sane people among the believers - even the best among us suffer from paranoia, schizophrenia and low self-esteem ........"

No, no! please don't do that to yourself. Don't inflict such wounds upon your tender soul.

Peace.

Re: # 159

Please immediately seek professional help...

Re: # 148

And over which mountain do you sit proudly upon Mr. Beggar Ippi?

Horrible outburst of Sir (whoever)...

Even Babar disliked India but he stayed to rule.

The word PUNJAB is not an ancient word by the way!

All Sirs were stooges of the British; you don't get knighthoods for nothing!

Now give me a japhi (hug) and a kichi (brotherly kiss).

Peace.

Re: # 136

"I look towards my own sense of right and wrong and dont seek guidance from anyone."

Now find the answer to this huge problem in the Qur'an.

Happy hunting!

Pak identity

This is an article about the state of universities in pakistan and how to improve them.

All of the educated pakistanis have posted about teh islams contribution to science, the koranic science and you name it.

No one cared to mention any pakistani scientist let alone abdus salam.

All of the educated pakistanis have identified islam with pakistan.

Anything good done by any muslim any where and any time in history is claimed by these educated pakistanis.

There in lies the tragedy of pakistan and the victory of TNT.

TNT has sublimated any kind of cultural identity that the pakistanis could have had

Re: # 160
"....... if we spend half as much time studying algebra as we spend on discussing who invented algebra we would be much better off ...... any muslim child can rattle off a dozen names of muslim scholars but can't tell his elbow from a hole in the ground ....... what a waste !".

There I agree with you. I can't understand the obsession of some Muslims with proving that Islam/muslims were somehow the first to demonstrate/prove this , that, or the other.

Unfortunately (or otherwise) I am not one of them. Actually (between me and you) I am ashamed to admit that I often spend sometime doing algebra; I have to teach it.

Re: # 157 GT

Its really quite simple. The fixed portion come out of only the 2/3rd of the estate; 1/3 of it can be bequethed through a will to anyone among those with fixed portions or outside like a friend or a charity. Among the fixed portion the residual is disbursed to the nearest living male of the family.

Re: # 157 GT

Its really quite simple. The fixed portion come out of only the 2/3rd of the estate; 1/3 of it can be bequethed through a will to anyone among those with fixed portions or outside like a friend or a charity. Among the fixed portion the residual is disbursed to the nearest living male of the family.

Re: # 156

viqram mian,

...... every community has its idiots but the mohammedans have more than their fair share ... as a matter of fact it is hard to find many sane people among the believers - even the best among us suffer from paranoia, schizophrenia and low self-esteem ........

....... if we spend half as much time studying algebra as we spend on discussing who invented algebra we would be much better off ...... any muslim child can rattle off a dozen names of muslim scholars but can't tell his elbow from a hole in the ground ....... what a waste !

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 136 Tahmed

"...By focussing on the substance of the Quran..."
Which version do you subscribe to: the modern Arabic, or the San'aa manuscripts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscripts)?
Thanks

#155 Posted by Urstruly

Urstruly,

I get you. From the article what I get is that; (a) laws are set; (b) the laws are complex. The Talmudic debate, which I beieve occered say around 400-500 years later have a bit more to do with "fairness" as understood by different scholars. Given my understanding of the article referred by you, what I would be more interested in is: How did Muslim scholars/lawmakers rule on the division of the "residual" (i.e. that proportion left over, in cases where there was a left over, after calculating the shares as directed by the Koran).

Thanks once again.

Re: # 142 Hamidm Sahib,
Actually stupidity is far more prevalent, and on constant display, amongst the mindless and vile opponents of Islam.

I do not have enough knowledge of medical sciences. I can either honestly admit it and leave medical issues to those who do have sufficient knowledge; or I can thump my chest, claim to be an expert, and put my ignorance and stupidity on display, in order to win brownie points from those in the crowd who are equally, or even more, prejudiced against medical sciences. The choice, in the end, is mine alone.

While it is generous of you to so concede, there is really no need to convince me that there are idiots among the "Liberty" University crowd. I have known for a long time that there are, in fact, mostly idiots at "Liberty" University and other similar institutions.

Peace.

Re: # 153 GT

Oh no, they are not discussing algebra there. The intent of posting that website was to show the mathematical complexity one comes across when dealing with the execution of Law of Inheritence. Algebraic expressions can make these complexities easy to solve; and that was the engine that drove Muslim mathematicians to evolve Algebra. Interestingly enough the alphabet used in Arabic (and Urdu) to this date to represent the unknown quantity "x" (in English) is the alphabet "Laa". The "Laa" in Arabic is also used as a word to say "no", "nothing", or "unknown"

Re: # 152 sattar2

''However, if you insist on contextualizing Quranic guidance on inheritance by having the parliament decide what is proper, then apply the same principle to consumption of alcohol and pork also. Arguably, having pork chops with a glass of wine does not violate any “broad, universal principles� either; so I am not sure why a Muslim should have any issues with doing so''

Agreed. you are agreeing with exactly my point that you disagreed with me here....

http://chowk.com/interacts/12085/1/0/416#329511

my interact no is #807 in reply to tahmed2

i reproduce it here.
tahmed sahib

(((I respect your views...and this is perhaps the first time i have come to know what you really stand for....i partially agree with what you said...

But tahmed ji the problem is that `given the nature of our faith`s social dimension, we cannot completely ignore the CONTENT of islamic social philosophy and its ideological dimension.....your views and practices are ideal and admirable on personal level but ,on the social level, how would we ignore other principles of islam???? The principles you are taliking about are very generalised kind of values and can be quite ambigeous and misleading unless they are described in the context of that Ideological system.

Islam has its own comprehensive and `all-inclusive` system....Along with those broad principles what distinguish from other religions and ideologies is that it has CATEGORICAL DESCRIPTION of those BROADER principles...and we cannot ignore IT... even though there is great room for reforms and `ijtehaad` within that `mutable content` but nothing can be accomodated in the framework of islam beyond the CATEGORICAL DESCRIPTION of those `mutable aspects` and the basic core pricnciples....that`s the reason why even Iqbal believes in an islamic ideological system...)

Dear Urstruly,

Thanks once again. The article (and related debate) had to do with proportions, I do not see "algebra" being discussed. Am I on the right page?

tahmed (#151),

Quranic guidance regarding inheritance is 2:1 between son and daughter (under normal circumstances). I am not sure why there is any need to drag the constitution or parliament into this.

If you think the 2:1 rule violates broad, universal principles, then your issue is with Quran itself that laid out the 2:1 principle in the first place.

However, if you insist on contextualizing Quranic guidance on inheritance by having the parliament decide what is proper, then apply the same principle to consumption of alcohol and pork also. Arguably, having pork chops with a glass of wine does not violate any “broad, universal principles� either; so I am not sure why a Muslim should have any issues with doing so.

sattar: by "how" i mean the process through which you decide any issue (e.g. whether drinking should be legal or illegal to use your example), whereas the "what" is the decision itself.

In my post below I was addressing the "how", not the "what" on the inheritance issue. Hope this clarifies. And where I stand on "how" is that it should be a democratically elected parliament that is guided by broad, universal principles embedded in the constitution.

Trouble in Pakistan is that the "how" has too often been a dictator's stroke of a pen (as in case of hadood laws e.g.). That is what I have been saying below. Hope this clarifies.

Re: # 144 GT

There are many sources available on the net thru google, But the site that I suggested was very comprehensive. The subject matter in the website can be divided into three main categories:

1. Law of Inheritance and its basis in Qura'n.

2. The explanation and interpretation of thsi law through hadith.

3. The application of law - explained through hypothetical situations in Q&A form.

This constitution makes it easy for the reader and allows him to go as deep as he wishes or only skim through it if he wishes.

In my humble opinion the greatest contribution of Muslim scientists towards science was the formulation of Acids; particularly the Sulphuric and the Hydrochloric acid. The Chemist Jabir Bin Hayan, who is credited with the formulation of many acids and Alkalis may very well be compared to the Bill Gates who revolutionized the Personal Computing with the formulation of Windows. Similarly, Acids and Bases form the matrix on which each and every chemical ever discovered or formulated establishes itself. In Chemical world, even to this day, the progress of a nation is measured by the annual production of Sulphuric Acid in that country.

PAVO CAVALRY I LIKED UR FOLLOWING POST ON KHALID BHATTI THAT PUNJABI CHAUVINITS ARTICLE:--

the pashtuns of tribal areas are not what Mr Jinnah the founder of Pakistan called "hopeless Punjabis" .You Punjabis were 90 % of Punjab and the Sikhs were using your Badshahi Mosque of Lahore as a Horse Stable and ypu Punjabis had invented the shuttle cock burqa so that your fair sex are not abducted by the Sikhs at will.And the knight in shining armour General Sir Hugh Gough of Bengal Army of English East India Company saved u Punjabi Muslims from being deflowered by the Sikhs.

You Punjabi Muslims cannot be compared with the indomitable tribals.

You Punjabi Muslim troops fored even at the Holy Kabaa.

Azeem Hussain son of Sir Fazl i Hussian himself a Punjabi thus quoted Jinnah " THE PUNJAB IS A HOPELESS PLACE , I WILL NEVER VISIT IT AGAIN" . You Punjabi Lotus Eaters.

tahmed (#97):

You are assuming too much regarding what I supposedly assumed. Proposing “how� may be all fine and dandy (although I remain unclear on what you mean by "how vs. what") … but …

… to set things in proper context, apply the same reasoning to consumption of wine and pork also. If legal codes adequately address all concerns, then a Muslim should be OK with having pork chops with a glass of wine. I hope the irony is now clear.

hamidm: actually, it is the washed and starched masses like musharraf that need kindergarten training (Lesson 1: dont fib; Lesson 2: dont try to act like a bully) more than anyone else.

Re: # 143

philosopher,

..... i did not mean to imply that khadija forced mo to give women the right to own a camel - i was merely pointing out that bedouin women, like khadija, owned camels before mo appeared on the scene ....... personally i think she was the real mastermind and power behind this enterprise - that is why the prophet (pbuh and his camel) didn't dare to mess with another woman as long as she was alive ...... she had his number .... you are free to disagree with my theory, but be nice ....

anyway, back to the issue at hand - i think pakistan needs to focus on providing primary education to its unwashed masses, instead of creating another bureaucracy like the hec that will end up wasting good money on producing 'scholars'like masadi and the guy who wanted to harness the power of jinns to solve the energy cirsis ......

Urstruly:

The link you gave me takes me to a web page with a vast number of entries on "inheritance". Could you provide me with a more specific link?

Re: # 142 hamid meerasi

I am not surprised to see yet another 'bhaandastic' post by you. Instead of refuting alternative POV with logic and facts you always come up with your khaandaani ability to 'meerasize' every serious discourse.

hamid mardood utters this filth

''as for mo of mecca giving inheritance rights to women, let me remind you that his entire enterprise was funded by a woman ...... if it hadn't been for his sugar mama - khadija - he would have been pounding sand like the rest of his bedouin buddies''

hamid let me say you are not even a new low in meerasiaat and bhaandism.

The law of inheritence is mentioned in sura Al-nisa which is a Madani sura. It was revealed in the 1st year of prophet(pbuh)'s hijra to madani. Hazrat Khadija was not alive at that time. Even if Khadija(rz) was alive She could not force prophet(pbuh) to give property share to girls as well. Despite being a wealthy and business woman she was no feminist. she was in love with the prophet and had great respect for the prophet(pbuh) and his mission. Seera shows that she was extremely obedient to prophet(pbuh)

hamid as i said earlier. You desparatly need to have couple fresh drinks of gao-muttar to make your aaklota brain cell work.

philo, viqram, tahir and other mmineen,

.... if it makes you feel any better, stupidity is not the domain of islam ony even though it seems to be the case nowadays ...... as tahmed correctly points out, the scholars at liberty university also believe in virgins giving birth, making wine out of water and folks rising from the dead .... they also believe that the earth was created in six days and that arjun is not descended from a monkey (ecen though the evidence is irrefutable) ....... so don't feel bad - you are not the only ones under the spell of a moon god .........

..... as for mo of mecca giving inheritance rights to women, let me remind you that his entire enterprise was funded by a woman ...... if it hadn't been for his sugar mama - khadija - he would have been pounding sand like the rest of his bedouin buddies .......

Understanding the Law of Inheritance of the Qur'an

Article:

Mr. Jochen Katz, in one of his articles[1] has raised a number of questions regarding the 'Law of Inheritance' of the Qur'an. The purpose of this writing is to answer the questions raised by him.

But before an attempt is made to answer the questions raised by Mr. Katz, it seems appropriate that I should state how I understand the related verses of the Qur'an[2]. I think that the correct understanding of these verses will itself provide answers to most of the questions raised by Mr. Katz.

Nevertheless, for a more meaningful understanding of the law, it seems appropriate that we start by taking a close look at a simple translation of the related verses of the Qur'an.

Translation of the Related Verses

The law of inheritance has been given in the Qur'an in Surah Al-Nisaa (the fourth chapter) verses 11 & 12 and then in verse 176. The translation of the related portions of these verses (as I understand them) is given below:

Verse-11:

"Allah enjoins you about [the share of inheritance of] your children: A male's share shall equal that of two females -- in case there are only daughters, more than two shall have two-thirds of what has been left behind. And if there be only one daughter, her share shall be half -- and if the deceased has children, the parents shall inherit a sixth each, and if he has no children and the parents are his heirs then his mother shall receive a third, and if he has brothers and sisters then the mother's share is the same one-sixth. [These shares shall be distributed] after carrying out any will made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by him (the deceased). You know not who among your children and your parents are nearest to you in benefit. This is the law of Allah. Indeed Allah is wise, all knowing."

Verse-12:

"You shall get half of what your wives leave, if they die childless. But if they do have children, your share shall then be a quarter of what they leave after carrying out any will made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by her. And they (your wives) shall have a quarter of what you leave, if you die childless. But in case you have children, they shall then get one-eighth of what you leave, after carrying out any will made by you or payment of any debt owed by you (the deceased). And if a man or a woman is made an heir on account of his [or her] kalalah relationship [with the deceased] and he [or she] has one brother or sister, the brother and sister shall each receive a sixth and if they be more than two, they shall then share in one-third, after carrying out any will that had been made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by him -- without harming anyone. This is a command from Allah and Allah is all-knowing, most forbearing."

Verse-176:

"They ask you. Say: Allah enjoins you about your kalalah heirs that if a man dies childless and he has only a sister, she shall inherit half of what he leaves; and if she dies childless, then her brother shall be her heir; and if their are two sisters, they shall inherit two-thirds of what he [or she] leaves. If there are many brothers and sisters, the share of each male should be that of two females. Allah makes [His commands] clear to you, so that you do not err. Allah has knowledge of all things."

A Brief Explanation of the Law

According to these verses of the Qur'an The first right on the property of the deceased is that of the creditors. After the payment to the creditors, any will made by the deceased shall be executed. The remainder of the property and assets of the deceased, if any, shall be distributed among the inheritors in the specified proportions.

Two Categories of Inheritors

A close analysis of these verses shall show that according to this law, there are basically two kinds of inheritors:

Inheritors who are to be given a fixed proportion of the total inheritance; and
Inheritors who are to share, in a specified proportion, the balance of the inheritance after the share of inheritors of the first category has been given.
The first category of inheritors includes parents[3] (in case a person has any children or brothers and sisters) and spouse[4]. On the other hand, the second category of inheritors includes children[5], brothers and sisters[6] (in case a person dies childless) and parents[7] (in case a person has neither children, nor brothers and sisters).

It simply means that in case any or all inheritors of the first category are present, first they shall be given their stipulated portion of the inheritance. The balance of the inheritance shall then be distributed among the second category of inheritors, according to their specified proportion. On the other hand, in case any or all of the inheritors of the first category do not exist, then all the property and assets of the deceased shall be distributed among the inheritors of the second category, according to the stipulated principle or according to their specified shares.

The Shares

Shares of the Inheritors of the First Category

Parents

The share of the parents (as inheritors of the first category, i.e., when the deceased has either children or brothers and/or sisters) shall be one-sixth each[8].

Spouse

The shares of the spouse[9] are as under:

In case of Husband:

If the wife dies childless -- half of the total property and assets of the wife
If the wife had any children -- a quarter of the total property and assets of the wife
In case of Wife:

If the husband dies childless -- a quarter of the property and assets of the husband.

If the husband had any children -- one-eighth of the property and assets of the husband.

Shares of the Inheritors of the Second Category

Children

The deceased's children shall share in the balance of the property and assets of the deceased, after the stipulated shares of all the inheritors of the first category have been given. The share of the deceased's children[10] is as follows:

If there are both sons and daughters -- the share of each son shall be double that of each daughter, in the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the first category of inheritors is given..
If there are only sons -- all the sons shall share equally in the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the first category of inheritors is given.
If there is only one son -- he shall take all the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the first category of inheritors is given.
If there is only one daughter (and no other children) -- she shall get half of the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the first category of inheritors is given.
If there be two or more daughters (and no sons) -- they shall share equally in two-thirds of the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the first category of inheritors is given.
Brothers And Sisters

According to verse 176, in case the deceased is childless, and has any brothers and/or sisters, the share of brothers and sisters of the deceased shall be exactly the same as that of his sons and/or daughters respectively, if he had any. Thus the share of the brothers and sisters shall be as under:

If there are both brothers and sisters -- the share of each brother shall be double that of each sister, in the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the first category of inheritors is given..
If there are only brothers -- all the brothers shall share equally in the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the first category of inheritors is given.
If there is only one brother -- he shall take all the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the first category of inheritors is given.
If there is only one sister (and no other brothers and/or sisters) -- she shall get half of the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the first category of inheritors is given.
If there be two or more sisters (and no brothers) -- they shall share equally in two-thirds of the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the first category of inheritors is given.
Parents

In case a person has neither children nor brothers and/or sisters then his parents shall share the balance of his property and assets after satisfying the claims of the inheritors of the first category[11] (in this case, the spouse of the deceased).

"Kalalah" Inheritors

Besides the stated relations (i.e., children, parents, brothers and/or sisters and spouse), the Qur'an has also referred to another kind of relations -- the "Kalalah". In the Arabic language, the word "Kalalah" is used in different meanings. In verse 12, it is used for relations other than the parents and children of a person.

Thus, if a person wants to add any kalalah relative (brothers and/or sisters, in the presence of children, and maternal and/or paternal aunts and uncles etc.) with the inheritors specified in the Qur'an[12], in their absence[13] or after their share has been given[14], he can do so by nominating the desired person. Such nomination cannot be made for any of the persons whose share has been specified in the Qur'an, neither can such nominations alter any of the shares specified in the Qur'an[15].

According to the Qur'an, if any one has made such a nomination in favor of any of his kalalah relatives, the following rule shall apply[16]:

If the nominated person has one brother and/or one sister, then a sixth each of the nominated amount shall be given to this brother and/or sister. The balance of the nominated amount shall be given to the nominated person.
If the nominated person has more than two brothers and/or sisters they shall all equally share one-third of the total nominated amount and the balance of the nominated amount shall be given to the nominee.
What About the Balance?

According to our understanding of the law of inheritance given in the Qur'an, there can be certain instances where a portion of the wealth of the deceased is left over after all the heirs have been given their shares. In the same way, if a childless person has neither brothers and/or sisters nor parents, a significant portion of his wealth shall remain undistributed. One solution to this problem, as indicated above, is that the Qur'an has directed the person to make someone his heir. But in case, the person has not done so, then what is to be done with the remaining balance? The following tradition provides an answer to this question, in most of the cases:

Give the heirs their share; if something remains, it is for the closest male relative. (Muslim, Kitabu'l-Faraidh, Chapter 1)

This is the law of inheritance of the Qur'an.

In the following section we shall examine the questions asked about this law by Mr. Jochen Katz.

Questions & Criticisms of Mr. Jochen Katz

Mr. Katz has stated in his article:
There are numerous simple cases which are not clear how to deal with them at all, since they don't fall under the instructions given. For example, if I have only one daughter, verse 4:11 says that she gets half [seemingly no matter who else might inherit]. The verse also states the general rule that a son inherits double of what a daughter inherits. Does that mean a single son would get all? Even if there are still parents which should also get a share? Also, it is regulated that one daughter would get half, and more than two daughters will [equally] share in 2/3. How much would two daughters get among them? The average between 1/2 and 2/3?

In the explanation of the law above, I have already dealt with these questions. I do not think there would be any use of repeating the answers again.

Mr. Katz asks:
Suppose I was already a widower and have only one daughter. When I die my one daughter gets half according to verse 11. What happens to the rest?

This question has also been dealt with in the explanation of the law. There is absolutely no reason of repeating the answer.

Mr. Katz asks:
Suppose my wife has no relatives at all [e.g. being a war orphan] and she dies before we are blessed with any children. According to verse 12, I get half of her property. Who gets the other half of her property? Only half of the inheritance is regulated according to the Qur'an.

Before answering this question, I would like to clarify that the directive of the Qur'an is not to regulate the total inheritance of a person but to fix the shares of the closest inheritors. There is a possibility that a significant part of the total property of a person is left unregulated. In such instances, the person is given the choice to select any person or persons, related or unrelated to him as his inheritor(s). In case no such person has been nominated by the deceased, then the closest male relative of the deceased shall inherit; and in case there are no relatives of the deceased then the state (government) of residence of the deceased can make any regulation to regulate this property. Any regulation of the state, in this connection, that does not alter the prescribed shares of the inheritors mentioned in the Qur'an and does not hinder the freedom of the deceased is allowed under the Islamic law.

Mr. Katz asks:
The same situation with switched roles, my wife would get a quarter, but who gets the other 3/4 of my property?

See answer to question No. 3.

Mr. Katz asks:
I die and leave my wife and one daughter but I have no other relatives, which means that my daughter gets 1/2 = 4/8 [verse 11] and my wife gets 1/8 [verse 12] leaving again 3/8 unaccounted for.

The answer to this question is the same as that to question no. 3. But it must be pointed out that the calculation of shares is not accurate. According to the explanation provided above the shares should be calculated as under:

Wife: One-eighth of the total assets of the deceased.
Daughter: Half of the remaining seven-eighths of the assets, i.e., 7/16th of the total assets.
Balance: The remaining 7/16th shall be given to the person bequeathed by the deceased; in the absence of such a person, it shall be given to the closest male relative of the deceased; in the absence of such a relative, the balance shall be distributed as per the regulations of the state of residence of the deceased.
Mr. Katz asks:
In all these [and several more such] cases the question is: Who gets the rest? I agree this can be taken care of by donating it to charities or the local Masjid. But the problem is the Qur'an does not tell us what to do with it. Can the rest also be distributed among the wife and children? But that procedure would make their shares different from what has been specified in the Qur'an! What is the point of specifying clear shares and then abandoning the instructions?

The "rest", as stated earlier, is left on the discretion of the deceased. Whoever, in his opinion, needs to get this "rest" may get it. Yes, it may be donated to a charity or a local Masjid.

The Qur'an does not tell us what to do with it so that the individual is left with the option of deciding about it. As has already been stated, the object of the Qur'an is not to distribute the whole property and assets of an individual, but to guide the Muslims regarding the rights of their relatives on their property. Obviously, it is not necessary that the accumulated rights of our relatives, in all the cases, must equal the total property.

No, the rest cannot be distributed among the wife and children. No change can be made in the prescribed shares of the inheritors mentioned in the Qur'an.

Mr. Katz says:
If I (as the male head of the family) die and leave behind (in the order given in the verses above):

3 daughters both parents my wife then they will receive
2/3 (2/9 each) 1/3 (1/6 each) 1/8 according to
verse 11 verse 11 verse 12 which adds up to
2/3+ 1/3+ 1/8= 1+1/8

Where is the extra 1/8 going to come from? Is the local Muslim community [the "fund for balancing out the inheritance shares that don't add up"] going to pay it? After all, if they would be getting the left-overs from the cases when the sum is less than one in the examples above, that would only be fair.

The calculations given in the above table are not correct. I am sure that Mr. Katz will now be in a position to calculate these shares correctly in the light of the explanation of the law above. In any case, the correct calculations are as under:

Parents: Both parents shall receive one-sixth each, i.e., one-third of the total property.
Wife: The wife shall receive one-eighth of the total property.
Balance: The balance after giving away the shares of the first category of inheritors shall be 1-(1/3+1/8) = 1-(11/24) = 13/24
Daughters: The three daughters shall equally share two-third of the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of all the inheritors of the first category have been given. 13/24 x 2/3 = 13/36; share of each daughter shall be 13/36 x 1/3 = 13/108
Total: The total shares distributed shall be 1/3+1/8+(13/108 x 3) = 11/24+13/36= 59/72
Balance: The balance (i.e., 1-59/72 = 13/72) shall be given to the person bequeathed by the deceased; in the absence of such a person, it shall be given to the closest male relative of the deceased; in the absence of such a relative, the balance shall be distributed as per the regulations of the state of residence of the deceased.
There is not a single imaginable case, where the total shares assigned by the Qur'an exceed 1.

Mr. Katz says:
One son and one daughter. 4:11 says that one daughter will get half and a son will get double a daughter's share, which would be everything. 150% of the available property is distributed and we haven't even looked at the parents and spouse yet.

Mr. Katz has mixed up two separate situations in his statement. According to 4: 11, if the deceased has both sons and daughters then the principle: "a male's share shall equal that two females" will apply. While the statement: "one daughter will get half" shall apply only when a person has no other (male or female) child except the "one daughter". This is quite clear from the statement of the Qur'an: "... in case there are only daughters, more than two shall have two-thirds of what has been left behind. And if there be only one daughter, her share shall be half..."

In the stated case (one son and one daughter), therefore, the principle: "a male's share shall equal that of two females" will apply. Thus, after the share of all the inheritors of the first category (i.e., parents and spouse) have been given, the male shall get two-thirds of the balance and the female shall receive one-third of the balance.

Mr. Katz says:
let us assume that 4:11 doesn't only speak about 2/3 for more than two daughters but the 2/3 share holds every time when there are two or more children as many Muslims interpret it. But then the last mentioned case above would still be the same problem for any number of children since the children get 2/3, the parents get 1/3 and then there is nothing left for the wife which is supposed to get 1/8.

As has been clarified in the explanation of the law above, in verse 4: 11, the two-thirds share is the share of a person's children, if they consist only of two or more daughters and no son. It does not apply "every time when there are two or more children (male as well as female) as many Muslims interpret it". Whenever the children of the deceased consist of male as well as female offspring, the principle: a male's share shall equal that of two females" shall apply.

"The last mentioned case" or any other case would never cause "the same" problem, if the law is properly understood. The children (if they consist only of two or more females) shall get two-thirds of the balance of the property and assets of the deceased, after the share of the parents (one-third) and that of the wife (one-eighth) has been given. Thus, even in the stated case, there shall be a balance remaining after all the shares have been given, which may be distributed according to the bequest of the deceased, or in the absence of it, may be given to the closest male relative of the deceased; and if no such relative exists, may be distributed according to the regulations passed by the legislative of the state.

There can be no imaginable case, even if the maximum number of wives (i.e., four) is assumed for the deceased, where the accumulated shares of all the inheritors exceeds one.

Mr. Katz says:
When a man dies and leaves behind a mother, wife and one sister only, then according to 4:11 the mother gets 1/3 (because he has neither children nor a brother), the wife gets 1/4 according to 4:12 (because they have no children) and the sister gets 1/2 according to 4:176 (because he has no children). Not only do we have again distributed more than there exists [1/12 in overdraft], we also have the very strange result that the direct heirs [people of direct relationship = spouse, children, parents] get each less than the indirect heir which is his sister. It becomes even worse if he has more than one sister since they then get 2/3 instead of 1/2 and we get even more into overdraft.

Though it does not make much of a difference in proving this point incorrect, but still it must be clarified here that the word: "Ikhwatun" in verse 4: 11, translated by Arberry as "brothers" denotes the existence of both brothers and/or sisters, whether one or more. Therefore, it should more accurately be translated as "siblings" or "brothers and sisters". This is a normal usage in the Arabic language. In verse 176, the Qur'an has removed all doubts that this word has not been used only for brothers, but for brothers and sisters both. It says in verse 176: "in kanu ikhwatan rijalan wa nisa'an" (i.e., if there be siblings, male and/or female).

Now, to take the stated situation, the shares of the various inheritors shall be as under:

Mother: The mother's share shall be one-sixth of the total assets of the deceased.
Wife: The wife's share shall be one-fourth of the total assets of the deceased.
Balance: The balance after the shares of the first category have been given shall be: 1-(1/6+1/4) = 1-(5/12) = 7/12
Sister: The sisters share shall be half of the balance of the property and assets of the deceased after the shares of the inheritors of the first category have been given. 7/12 x 1/2 = 7/24
Total: 7/24 + 5/12 = 17/24
Balance: The balance (1 - 17/24 = 7/24) shall be given to the person bequeathed by the deceased; in the absence of such a person, it shall be given to the closest male relative of the deceased; in the absence of such a relative, the balance shall be distributed as per the regulations of the state of residence of the deceased.
In this particular case, the sister (indirect heir?) does get more than the mother and wife (direct heirs?), because in this situation she is the only sister and one of the inheritors of the first category (i.e., the deceased's father) is not present. But then again, what exactly is wrong with such a situation?

Mr. Katz states:
Anybody who has ever dealt with dividing out an inheritance will know how easily that can get nasty and how this can poison family relationships if people think they have been cheated. Promising certain people a definite share but not being able to pay them this share because more was promised than is available is the surest recipe for disaster.

As stated earlier, there is no imaginable situation where the Qur'an has promised more than is available. Can any of my readers give me an instance?

Mr. Katz states:
According to 4:12 and 4:176 the siblings of the person who died share in the inheritance only when there are no direct heirs (i.e. parents or children according to Muslim understanding - see Yusuf Ali's translation and footnote), but in 4:11, the portion of the mother depends on the existence of brothers, which makes sense only if these brothers get the part that is taken from the mother. If they do not get it, and we suppose the shares added up to one without the existence of brothers, then who gets this sixth that was taken away from the mother by the pure existence of these brothers? It either does not add up with or without the existence of this brother if he does not get this sixth of the mother.

The explanation of the law above should suffice as an answer to this statement. To summarize, it should be noted that:

According to 4: 176, the siblings of a person inherit his property in the absence of his children. Verse 176 clearly states: "if a man dies childless...". It is quite clear from these words that the absence of parents is not a necessary condition for siblings to have a share in the inheritance.
The word "ikhwatun" in 4: 11 is not used to mean "brothers" but "siblings" or "brothers and sisters", as is substantiated by the same usage of this word in verse 176.
The portion of the mother is reduced if the deceased has any siblings because, as the learned writer writer has rightly assumed, the siblings of the deceased have a share in the inheritance of the deceased, in the absence of the deceased's children.
The referred part of 4: 12 has normally been wrongly interpreted. I am sure if the above explanation of the law is closely followed, it shall remove all the questions asked in this connection.
Mr. Katz states:
Last problem for now: 4:12 says that in case there are no direct heirs [parents or children] then "brother or a sister, to each of the two a sixth" while 4:176 says in the same situation that "they shall receive two-thirds of what he leaves" [double of what 4:12 says].

As stated earlier, the word "kalalah" in verse 4: 12 has been wrongly interpreted to mean that the deceased has no children or parents. As has been stated earlier, it actually means "relations other than children or parents". The remaining part of the statement has been answered under the section titled: "Kalalah" Inheritors.

Mr. Katz states:
Given the prime importance of this topic, it is an even worse problem to find contradictions on this issue in the Qur'an.

I shall truly like to know about a single contradiction in these verses.

Mr. Katz states:
Furthermore it seems that I can bequeath whatever I have to whomever I will, since bequests [and debts] are to be taken care off before the rest is distributed to the nearer or wider family. That this can lead to rather gross injustices (e.g. not leaving any support to your elderly parents) does not need to be explained in great detail.

The Qur'an has allowed a person to bequeath any part of his property to anyone he chooses, except for those whose share has been prescribed in the Qur'an. But even here, the basic guidance has been provided in the following words:

"... after carrying out any will made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by him [the deceased] -- without harming anyone. This is a command from Allah and Allah is all-knowing, most forbearing."

The last words of the selected portion of the verse, "Allah is all knowing, most forbearing" are a warning as well as an encouragement for the Muslims. A warning -- that if they knowingly commit any injustice, they must remember that Allah is all knowing, nothing of their deeds is hidden from Him. And an encouragement -- that if they err without the intention of harming anyone, then Allah is most forbearing. He will forgive the unintentional harm done by the devoted and sincere.

The Prophet (pbuh) is also reported to have said:

It is better that you leave your heirs some wealth rather than leave them poor. (Bukhari, Kitabu'l-Wasaya)

In the presence of these teachings, it is still quite possible that a person errs in judgment and some harm is done to his heirs, because of his bequest. But then again, this is the risk in every case of freedom granted to the individual. Taking away this right, would close the doors of contributing any good that an individual can contribute in his own judgment. Finally, according to 2: 182:

He that suspects an error or an injustice on the part of a testator and brings about a settlement among the parties incurs no guilt.

the Qur'an allows that if a person's bequest results in an obvious injustice, it may be altered by bringing about a settlement among the parties concerned.

Mr. Katz states:
A further contradiction in the inheritance laws is the above not mentioned verse of Sura 4:7

To the men a share of what parents and kinsmen leave and to the women a share of what parents and kinsmen leave, whether it (the property) be little or much, a share apportioned.

determining that men and women should each get an equal share (the parallel construction makes that obvious) clearly contradicting the instruction in 4:11, saying

Allah charges you, concerning your children:
to the male the like of the portion of two females, ...

The above objection is completely unfounded. According to the most commonly known rules of the Arabic language, as well as most other languages like for instance English, if the same noun is repeated with an indefinite article, the two nouns normally do not stand for the same thing. For instance in Arabic, you say: "ishtaraitu farasan wa be'tu farasan" (I bought a horse and I sold a horse). "A horse" in the first part of the sentence has to be different from the one in the second part. Had this sentence been like: "ishtraitu farasan wa be'tu'l-faras" (I bought a horse and I sold the horse), the second "horse" being with the definite article, shall now, normally, be taken to mean the same horse that was bought. Innumerable examples can be quoted from the Arabic language that will show that if the same common noun, with an indefinite article is repeated, as is the case in the referred part of 4: 7, the two nouns signify two different realities or concepts. Thus, in the referred part of 4: 7, when the word "share" is repeated as a common noun, preceded by an indefinite article, the two words cannot refer to the same amount of share. It must, in such a case refer to different values or amounts of shares.

The last comment that Mr. Katz has made on this issue relates not to any mathematical or "share calculation" issue but to the lack of justice in the assignment of various shares. Mr. Katz begins his argument with the following statement:
...Muslims argue that the shares of a male are double than that of a female not because a male is worth more, but because the male has the duty to support his family while the female can spend it all on herself without the need to share.

Because the whole argument of Mr. Katz on the issue of 'lack of justice' is primarily based on his acceptance of the reason given by the Muslims in this respect, as stated above, I would therefore like to present a brief analysis of this reason.

Mr. Katz is absolutely right in saying that the reason normally given by the Muslims as the basis for the difference in the shares of the male and the female relatives of the deceased is that the male has been assigned the duty to support his family, while the female has no such duty placed on her. I must admit that this can be taken as one of the reasons for the disparity in the male/female shares, but a close analysis of the verses on inheritance shows that it is not the reason given by the Qur'an. The Qur'an on the other hand, gives an absolutely different reason for assigning different shares in a person's assets to his relatives after his death. The Qur'an says:

You know not who among your children and your parents are nearest to you in benefit. This is the law of Allah. Indeed Allah is wise, all knowing.

Obviously, the extent of help and co-operation which a person receives from his parents, children and other close relatives cannot, normally, be paralleled by any other association. Undoubtedly, the world has always considered the kins of a deceased as the rightful beneficiaries of the wealth that he leaves behind. But certain issues, in this regard, have always remained unresolved. For instance, who among the relatives is nearest with respect to the benefits he holds for the deceased, and how should the shares of inheritance be calculated on this basis. It is not that the human endeavour in this regard has fallen prey to lack of application, rather it is due to certain inherrent limitations of the human mind which have made this task beyond its reach. Love, hatred, prejudice and other emotions have made it very difficult for the human intellect to come to grips with this challenge. Consequently, the wise and the all knowing has Himself guided mankind in this regard to relieve them from the disorders which have originated and can originate on this account.

Thus, the basic principle on which the shares of the various relatives of the deceased have been assigned is the benefit that accrues or can accrue from these relations to the deceased.

After this clarification, let us look at some of the objections raised by Mr. Katz in this regard. Mr. Katz states:

Imagine the situation that a man dies and leaves no direct heirs but only a brother and a sister. His sister might be a widow with children, without support from others, but she has to feed her children. The brother might be a rich business man and bachalor who has nobody to take care of but himself. Nevertheless, the brother will get 2/3 and the sister will get 1/3 of the estate.

As stated earlier, the basic principle in the assignment of shares is not the "need" of the particular inheritor but the benefit that has accrued or can accrue from this relation to the person in question (the deceased). Furthermore, it must also be kept in mind that the assignment of these shares is not the only means of supporting a 'needy sister'. A person has all the authority and right to give away as much of his assets as he desires, during his life, to any of his relatives who are in need. The shares mentioned in the verses under consideration are shares in the inheritance of a person. Such inheritance, if it is to be regulated in any way, cannot be regulated by keeping only exceptional situations in view. There can be a number of ways of dealing with such exceptional situations, if the person really wants to do so, while following the law in letter and spirit. (Most of the examples and situations given by Mr. Katz may be considered in the light of this paragraph).

Mr. Katz writes:

The male does get double the female no matter what their respective financial situation is and how many people depend on them. He might voluntarily give money to the needy relative. But the inheritance law does not say so, and he does not have to.

I am surprised to read what Mr. Katz has written here. Obviously, it is not for an inheritance law to suggest to a sharer in the inheritance to give up his or her share for some other sharer. The purpose of an inheritance law is only to assign shares to various relations of a deceased in a generally acceptable and just manner. I am sure Mr. Katz will not negate my statement that the Qur'an has generally prompted its believers to spend for the well being of their relatives. Not only that, the Qur'an persuades the Muslims to spend for the general well being of others, even in times of difficulty and financial stress.

It is very unfortunate that while considering an idea different from our own, we are more interested in pointing out what, according to our own (sometimes erroneous) thinking, 'should have been', rather than find out and understand what really 'is'.

I hope that Mr. Katz and all those who read this article will notify me of anything that is incorrect or is not based on the proper understanding of the Qur'an or the Arabic language.

© Copyright 1998. All Rights Reserved with the Author


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[1] Mr. Katz's article can be seen on the internet at:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i001.html

[2] The explanation of the law of inhritance of the Qur'an is based on the researh of my teacher, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi.

[3] Regarding the share of the parents, the Qur'an says:

...if the deceased has children, the parents shall inherit a sixth each, and if he has no children and the parents are his only heirs then his mother shall receive a third, and if he has brothers and sisters then the mother's share is the same one-sixth.

If we look at this part of the verse closely, we shall see that in case the deceased has any children or, in the absence of children, has any brothers and/or sisters, the parents are to receive a fixed share (one-sixth each) of the total inheritance. Thus, we may conclude that in the presence of either children or brothers and/or sisters of the deceased, the parents get a fixed share in the total inheritance.

From the last line of the referred part of this verse, which says that the share of the deceased's mother is returned to the original share (i.e., the share stipulated for the mother in case the deceased had any children -- one-sixth), one may easily derive that if a person dies childless but has any brothers and/or sisters:

the share of the deceased's father will also be one-sixth, which is the original share of the deceased's father (i.e., the share stipulated for the father in case the deceased had any children -- one-sixth); and
the brothers and/or sisters of the deceased shall take the same position, with regards to inheriting the deceased's property, as would have been the position of the deceased's children, if he had any. The statement of Verse 176, clearly supports this derivation.
Both these derivations can be made on the simple basis that in case of a childless person, if he has any brothers and/or sisters the share of the mother has been returned to what her share would have been if the deceased had any children.

[4] Regarding the share of the spouse, the Qur'an says:

You shall get half of what your wives leave, if they die childless. But if they do have children, your share shall then be a quarter of what they leave after carrying out any will made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by her. And they (your wives) shall have a quarter of what you leave, if you die childless. But in case you have children, they shall then get one-eighth of what you leave

According to the referred part of the verse, in case a woman dies childless, the husband shall get half of her property and assets. While if she has any children, her husband's share shall be one-fourth. On the other hand, if a man dies, his wife shall get a quarter of his property and assets, if he dies childless, while she shall get one-eighth if he has any children.

[5] The share of the deceased's children has primarily been mentioned in the following words:

Allah enjoins you about [the share of inheritance of] your children: A male's share shall equal that of two females...

(For the purpose of understanding the verse more easily, its remaining part that relates to the share of a person's offspring -- i.e., in case there are only daughters, more than two shall have two-thirds of what has been left behind. And if there be only one daughter, her share shall be half -- is not yet being considered. This part of the verse shall be considered in detail, later.)

If the commandment of the Qur'an, regarding the law of inheritance had ended here, it would have meant that the total property and assets of the deceased are to be distributed among his/her children, according to the principle that each male child gets double the share of every female child. For example, if someone says: "This money is to be distributed among your children equally", it would simply imply that: 1) the money is to be distributed among all the children, according to the principle of equality; and 2) no one except the "children" has a right on the total money. In the same way, if someone says: "This money is to be distributed among your children in such a way that each female child gets half of what each male child gets", there shall be no change in the two stipulated implications of the sentence, except that in the latter case the principle of distribution, rather than "equality" shall be "each female gets half of what each male gets".

But, as a matter of fact, the commandment of the Qur'an does not end here. The Qur'an has mentioned a few other relations, like the parents and the spouse of the deceased, who are to be given a specified portion of the deceased's property. But the words used in describing the shares of the relations other than the children of the deceased are such that clearly imply that the other relations are to be given a fixed proportion of the total property and assets of the deceased, while his/her children are to share the balance of the property remaining after the share of the other relations has been given.

Suppose someone says: "Distribute this money equally among your children; give one-third of it to your parents". Obviously the implication of this sentence is quite clear. It simply means that first, one-third of the total money should be given to the parents and the remaining amount (two-thirds of the total) should be distributed equally among the children. In the same way, if someone says: "Distribute this money among your children in such a way that each girl gets half of what each boy gets; give one-third of it to your parents and a quarter of it to your wife", it would simply mean that after giving one-fourth of the money to the wife and one-third to the parents, the remaining five-twelfths is to be distributed among the children in such a way that each boy gets the double of what each girl gets. It also means that if the person does not have either or both the parents and the wife, the total money would then be distributed among his children according to the given principle.

The directive of the Qur'an is quite similar to the above example statements. In a simplified form, it says that the deceased's children are to share the property on the principle that each male child gets double the share of each female child; parents are to get one-sixth each; and the deceased's wife is to be given one-eighth. This simply means that the deceased's mother, father and wife are to be given one-sixth, one-sixth and one-eighth of the total property respectively. The remaining balance (13/24th) shall then be distributed among the children according to the stipulated principle.

From the above, it can easily be seen that according to the law of inheritance of the Qur'an, Children of the deceased are to share in the balance of the property and assets according to the specified principle, after the shares of the first category of inheritors has been given.

[6] Verse 176 states:

...if a man dies childless and he has only a sister, she shall inherit half of what he leaves; and if she dies childless, then her brother shall be her heir; and if their are two sisters, they shall inherit two-thirds of what he [or she] leaves. If there are many brothers and sisters, the share of each male should be that of two females...

If we compare the shares of the brothers and sisters of the deceased (if he dies childless) as given in verse 176 with that of the deceased's children (if he had any) given in verse 11, we can easily see that in verse 176, the share of sons has been replaced by that of brothers and the share of daughters by that of sisters. In other words, we may say that in the absence of children, the brothers and sisters of the deceased take the place of his sons and daughters, with regards to the share in the property and assets of the deceased.

The words describing the shares of the brothers and sisters of the deceased (in case he dies childless) in verse 176 are also quite similar to those describing the shares of his sons and daughters in verse 11. We can therefore safely say that in the absence of the deceased's children, after the property and assets of the deceased have been distributed among the inheritors of the first category, the balance of his inheritance shall be distributed among his/her brothers and sisters.

[7] From the last two explanatory notes, it may be summed up that after the shares of the first category of inheritors have been given, the balance of the property and assets of the deceased is to be distributed among his children, according to the principle that each male gets double the share of each female. In the absence of the deceased's children, this balance is to be distributed among his brothers and sisters, according to the same male/female proportion. Now, the question is what will happen to this balance, in case the deceased has neither children nor brothers and/or sisters. The Qur'an says that in such a case, the parents, who originally were inheritors of the first category, will now take the balance of property and assets of the deceased and thus, in this case, become inheritors of the second category:

...if the deceased has children, the parents shall inherit a sixth each, and if he has no children and the parents are his heirs then his mother shall receive a third, and if he has brothers and sisters then the mother's share is the same one-sixth...

As is clear from this portion of the verse, the share of the parents is one-sixth each, if the deceased has any children or, in the absence of children, any brothers and sisters. But if the deceased has neither children nor brothers and/or sisters then the parents are the heirs. Thus, after the share of the deceased's spouse has been given, the remainder shall be given to the parents. This is the obvious implication of the following portion of the referred verse:

...if he has no children and the parents are his heirs then his mother shall receive a third...

[8] The Qur'an says:

...if the deceased has children, the parents shall inherit a sixth each, and if he has no children and the parents are his heirs then his mother shall receive a third, and if he has brothers and sisters then the mother's share is the same one-sixth...

The share of parents in case the deceased has any children is quite obvious (i.e., one-sixth each). In case a person dies childless but has any brothers and/or sisters the mother's share is given in this verse to be one-sixth, but the father's share is not mentioned here. Thus, someone may ask: what shall be the share of the deceased's father in such a case?

The father's share, in this case, like that of the mother, is also returned to its original amount (i.e., what his share would have been if the deceased had any children). Thus, the father's share shall also be one-sixth. This is also supported by the directive of verse 176, from which it is quite clear that in the absence of the deceased's children, his/her brothers and sisters shall be treated exactly like his/her children. Thus, the share of parents, mother and father, of a childless deceased, in the presence of his/her brothers and/or sisters is the same as it would have been if he had any children.

[9] According to the Qur'an:

You shall get half of what your wives leave, if they die childless. But if they do have children, your share shall then be a quarter of what they leave after carrying out any will made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by her. And they (your wives) shall have a quarter of what you leave, if you die childless. But in case you have children, they shall then get one-eighth of what you leave

According to the referred part of the verse, in case a woman dies childless, the husband shall get half of her property and assets. While if she has any children, her husband's share shall be one-fourth. On the other hand, if a man dies, his wife shall get a quarter of his property and assets, if he dies childless, while she shall get one-eighth if he had any children.

[10] The sentence: "Allah enjoins you about [the share of inheritance of] your children" is a prelude to the sentence: "A male's share shall equal that of two females".

Had this commandment ended on the words "A male's share shall equal that of two females", then it would have meant:

If the children of a deceased are only a boy and a girl then the boy shall receive twice as much as the girl.
If there are more than one boy and one girl, then the inheritance shall be divided among them in a manner that each boy receives twice the share of a girl.
If there are only boys or only girls then they shall be the inheritors of the whole.
The third case is also, quite evidently, an essential outcome of the style and pattern of the verse. For example, if someone says: "This money is to be distributed among beggars and a male beggar is to be given twice the amount given to a female beggar", it would simply mean that the money is actually meant for the beggars; whether the beggars are only male, only female or a combination of the two, all the money shall be distributed among them.

But the directive of the Qur'an does not end here; an exception immediately follows, thereby amending it.

The sentence: "in case there are only daughters: more than two shall have two-thirds of what has been left behind [as inheritance]" is an exception to the words: "A male's share shall equal that of two females". Now the whole sentence, including the exception, means that if among the children of the deceased there are only girls, whether two or more, then their share shall be two-thirds of the total inheritance. The words: "And if there be only one daughter, her share shall be half [of what is left behind as inheritance]" are co-ordinated to this exception by the copulative "and", and thus do not form an independent clause.

It may be noted here that we have taken the words of the Qur'an: "more than two shall have two-thirds" to stand for "two or more than two daughters". The reason is that the words: "two or" have been suppressed before the words "more than two". This suppression is due to the style and pattern of the Qur'anic language. If closely observed, it shall be seen that the share of daughters in the verse are stated in the descending order. Now, if it was desired to mention the share of two girls separately, even though it was the same as that of more than two girls, there could only have been two possible constructions for the particular sentence:

two or more than two shall have two-thirds of what has been left...; or
more than two or two shall have two-thirds of what has been left...
if the choice was made in favor of the first sentence, it would have spoiled the descending order of the description; while the second sentence would have meant non-idiomatic Arabic, just as the translation is un-idiomatic English.

Thus, the Qur'an which is neither willing to sacrifice the style and quality of its language nor likes to do away with the logical sequence of its commandments has suppressed the words: "two or" in the said verse. However, this suppression has not created any confusion whatsoever. It is quite obvious that the referred verse implies that if a person dies leaving behind two or more daughters, his inheritance shall be distributed in all his daughters, whether they are two or more than two, in such a way that each girl gets an equal share of the two-thirds of the total inheritable property.

This fact is further substantiated by verse 176. A close analysis of verse 176 shows that it has prescribed exactly the same shares for the brothers and sisters of the deceased (in case he dies childless) and exactly the same rules for such distribution, as had already been prescribed for the sons and daughters of the deceased (if he had any children) in verse 11. The only difference is that in verse 176 the Qur'an has described these shares in the ascending order. A combined study of the two referred verses, not only helps in filling in the blanks of these verses, if they are studied independently but also gives the careful reader an idea of the style of the Qur'anic language. The relevant portions of the two verses has been reproduced below for a quick reference.

Verse 11 states: "Allah enjoins you about [the share of inheritance of] your children: A male's share shall equal that of two females -- in case there are only daughters [who inherit]: [two or] more than two shall have two-thirds of what has been left behind [as inheritance]. And if there be only one daughter, her share shall be half [of what is left behind as inheritance]"

Verse 176 states: "Allah enjoins you about your kalalah heirs that if a man dies childless and he has only a sister, she shall inherit half of what he leaves; and if she dies childless, then her brother shall be her heir; and if their are two sisters, they shall inherit two-thirds of what he [or she] leaves. If there are many brothers and sisters, the share of each male should be that of two females.

The common points in these verses are:

if there are males as well as females, a male's share shall equal that of two females
the share of one sister, if she is alone, is the same as that of one daughter, if she is alone
Besides these two common points another important commonality in the two situations is that the share of the parents of the deceased is the same (one-sixth), i.e., in case a person who has some children dies, and his parents are alive, the share of his parents shall be one-sixth. Again, his parents would get the same share if the person dies childless but has some brothers and sisters. Whereas, if neither of the two (i.e., brothers/sisters or sons/daughters) exist then the share of the parents shall be different.

These three common features point to the fact that in case a person dies childless, his brothers and sisters substitute his children, with regards to their prescribed shares in their inheritance.

Keeping this in mind, all the blanks (if any) of the two referred verses can be easily filled. For instance:

On the basis of verse 11, we may say that if there are more than two sisters, they shall have equal shares of two-thirds of the inheritable property (although this is quite obvious if verse 176 is read with care independent of verse 11).
On the basis of verse 176, we may say that if there are two daughters, they shall have equal shares of two-thirds of the inheritable property (although this is also quite obvious if verse 11 is read with care independent of verse 176).
On the basis of verse 176, we may say that if there is only one son, he shall get the whole inheritable property (this again is quite obvious in verse 11, even if it is read independent of verse 176, as has been shown in the illustration of "distribution of money among beggars" above.)
[11] According to the Qur'an:
...if he has no children and the parents are his heirs then his mother shall receive a third...

One may ask: what shall be the share of the father in such a case. A close look at the above sentence shall itself provide an answer. If someone says: "This money is to be given to Mr. A and Mr. B; Mr. A should get a quarter of it", it would obviously mean that the remainder three-fourths is for Mr. B. By the same token, when the Qur'an says: "if the deceased's parents (A and B) are his only heirs, then the mother (A) shall receive a third", it obviously means that the father (B) shall receive the remaining two-thirds.

[12] For instance, a person may say that besides the stipulated shares of his parents (one-sixth each) and his wife (one-eighth) he wants one-eighth of his property and assets to be given to one of his brothers or sisters (in the presence of children), or an aunt or an uncle.

[13] For instance, a person who has no children, brothers and/or sisters or parents may leave his property and assets to any of his aunts, uncles or cousins.

[14] There can be some instances where the total property and assets of the deceased are not distributed after all the inheritors have been given their specified share of inheritance. Some of these instances are as under:

Where a person has one or more daughters but no sons -- in this case half or one-third of the balance of the property and assets of the deceased, after giving the shares of the inheritors of the first category may remain undistributed.
Where a childless person has one or more sisters but no brothers -- in this case half or one-third of the balance of the property and assets of the deceased, after giving the shares of the inheritors of the first category may remain undistributed.
Where a childless person who has no brother or sister has either of two parents -- in this case one-third (if he has a father but no mother) or two-thirds (if he has a mother but no father) of the balance of the property and assets of the deceased, after giving the shares of the inheritors of the first category may remain undistributed.
In any of these instances, a person may nominate any of his relatives to take the remaining part of his property and assets.

[15] The Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said:

"God has granted every heir his right, so no bequest can be made in favor of an heir". (Tirmadee, Kitabu'l-Wasaya, Chapter 5)

[16] The Qur'an says:
...And if a man or a woman is made an heir on account of his [or her] kalalah relationship [with the deceased] and he [or she] has one brother or sister, the brother and sister shall each receive a sixth and if they be more than two, they shall then share in one-third...

from

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=14

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Hamid

Muhammad’s maths might be weak, but I think his heart was in the right place, to advocate some inheritence for girls 1500 years ago must have been a revolution.

Some muslims and certain cultures to this day do not give even a penny to girls.

There are numerous problems facing Pakistan, education is just one of them.

UK universities are full of academics from India, east Europe, and even iran, Pakistan.

The question arises why doesn’t UK train its own, instead of poaching from others.

disenomad #98 I fully agree that we should not leave it to maulvis to tell us what islam is. However, I reach the same conclusion based on a different reason than you - it is not just the lack of education that is the problem.

The bigger problem is that individuals who make a living out of religion cannot be considered objective in their views. These individuals include not just maulvis, but a host of other kinds of individuals - priests of all religions, TV evangelists, individuals seeking political power through force (for whom religion provides a convenient mask of morality to cover-up their personal ambitions).

This is the reason that prophets have delivered simple and clear messages that have resounded with the people because they appeal to universally accepted principles. And priests and other scoundrels have turned this into a money-making or power-seeking machine: brahmins in hinduism being the most extreme (since they have made themselves a separate caste by birth altogether, something even the christian pope does not do). Jesus talked about love for fellow humans, and the centuries later christian priests ("Saint" Augustine to be exact) made Jesus the son of God!

So, how do we pull Islam back from the same corrupt path that other, older religions have already taken? By taking it away from those who seek religion as a means for personal power or as a means to make a living. How do we take it away? By focussing on the substance of the Quran, not the rituals of the maulvi.

And the substance of Islam is very simple: Each individual is personally responsible for using his God-given senses to tell right from wrong, and to do the right thing. This is Islam.

The rest is all either further elaboration in the Quran, e.g. its emphasis on the principle of justice that I mentioned earlier, or the application of broad principles to specific issues like that of inheritance that I mentioned earlier. Or else twisting of the Quranic message by priests in ways that totally stand the above-mentioned core message on its head.

PS: I enjoyed reading the funny material on your website. I am not looking for answers to any specific questions, and am not sure why you thought I was. My Islam is based on that core formulation above - and so on matters of religion I look towards my own sense of right and wrong and dont seek guidance from anyone. Although I am happy to discuss issues with friends.

hamidm #100 Is this "good christian scientist" you are learning math from the same one who computed that the universe was created in in 6 days in the year 6000 BC?

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I felt like flagging red my own post - it is worth the pain - it carries the pain of millions of my idolator fore fathers butchered by the momeen hordes. It carries the pain of a civilization , a spiritual country terrorized and subdued for centuries..........yet the momeen terror could not break it......

I salute my fore fathers for the resistence that made my survival possible.

I salute my fore fathers for not accepting slavery to the cult of blood thirsty god.

Hari Om Tatsat!!!

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#126
Interact Guidelines....

Ans: Sorry...

#123
When you create a whole country, in the name of Islam, you can not separate Islam from the public life. This is hard truth. Israel was created in the name of Judaism, but again, they were amongst the cream of Europe and Russia. So, bigotry had not taken the centre stage in Israel (rather, they made it the country for jews. Nothing more).
The intention of Mr. J was quite legitimate. The way he had tried to achieve this was very bad ( direct action day, great calcutta killing...). Unless and untill, you try to achieve something using peaceful method, violence will predominate the society. Jains are the best example of it.

Re: # 126
The ideal of my behaviour remains Muhammad, not Taliban

Ans: Are they very much different? Whom are you trying to fool?

#127
Sorry....Most of the source of my information is from other web-sites....So....

nkg,

Not so much an issue of self respect, but is that of an identity.

Pakistanis chose to take on the muslim identity, and they cannot go very far, because the leading light is in saudi arabia. They cannot take anything pre islamic, because that will destroy the TNT foundation.

Hence the poor pakistanis are doomed to be no-bodies. Many pakistanis in the west have tried to call themselves Desis, but no one else will take that identity.

It is a real tragedy, closest one can compare pakistan is to a congenital retarded child, blasted out by TNT.

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Mr. Laddu as if you were not enough; now we have NKG to join the ranks! Amazing bigotry and ignorance, all learnt from newspapers and so-called Islamic websites!

The funny part is, despite your hatred for invaders (there were others apart from Arabs, by the way) you're still able to practise your faith, keep mother India, project the nudist Bollywood culture, and whatever else.

Today, the world is what it is because you provoke perfectly normal humans into becoming irrational fools.

Well, you've tried that with me. The ideal of my behaviour remains Muhammad, not Taliban.

As for the sin of venomous comments on this forum, the CHOWK editors must bear it.

Try the Raam way, if not the rakhshas Rawan way please...

Re: # 124
There is this thing about calling names. I read a letter in a newspaper the other day about an Indian diplomat in Islamabad paying a social visit to a friendly Muslim family. It said that a small boy of five or six, coming to know that the guests were from India, began to shout “Hindu kutta! Hindu kutta!� Who had taught him that? His elders or a biased book on social studies digested by his senior brothers and sisters? In any case it can hardly be his fault for he was too young to know what he was doing. But his family should have been ashamed of his uncivil behaviour.

Ans: I think, this is expected. Those who have surendered their identity to barbaric arab invaders ( the very person, who had raped their ancestors, destroyed their architecture, literature), what else you expect from them?
Any respect for the land that feeds?
Any respect for the 5000 years of great culture which he is part of?
The situation in Bangladesh is more ridiculous....
These people will always be slave to somebody, due to lack of self respect (whether USA, Saudi Arab etc...).

Pervez,

What is below is from an opinion piece in dawn of yesterday. Before we talk about the university research, let us fix up the school books.

It is a tragedy that truthful articles that come in dawn etc. ever find their place in chowk. Chowk, increasingly is a pak govt mouth piece as any criticism of pakistan results in being banned from chowk.

////////////////////////////

"I can’t take the liberty of advising my Hindu brothers and sisters across the border, but I can certainly expect sane elements in Pakistani society to think seriously about revising school and college textbooks so that they should reflect history somewhat rationally, and without describing Hindus as double-faced crooks and hypocrites who are out to shed Muslim blood.

Let us not forget that it were always the Muslims who invaded India, and that too not for the glory of Islam. Only Mohammad bin Qasim came for a valid reason but he too couldn’t resist conquering territories north of Sindh, perhaps, because in those times conquest was considered a legitimate activity.

There is this thing about calling names. I read a letter in a newspaper the other day about an Indian diplomat in Islamabad paying a social visit to a friendly Muslim family. It said that a small boy of five or six, coming to know that the guests were from India, began to shout “Hindu kutta! Hindu kutta!� Who had taught him that? His elders or a biased book on social studies digested by his senior brothers and sisters? In any case it can hardly be his fault for he was too young to know what he was doing. But his family should have been ashamed of his uncivil behaviour.

Pervez,

The clear beginning of an education system that has a future is when you can deliver an Abdus Salaam memorial lecture in pakistan. That is when the pak society comprising of the YLH and zeemaz of pakistan have accepted that scientific achievements cannot be derrogated by the religion of the scientist, that is when the pakistanis have accepted that the fountain sprigs of scietific enquiry is not poisoned by the religiosity of the islamic republic of pakistan.

Till then, and that day is unlikely to come in your life time, Pervez please keep trying.

Re: # 121
A+++ version of Mumbai movies...Large number of stupid follwers....

Re: # 120
sorry...
some sex as well...
Koran 37:40-48
...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered
eggs of ostriches.

Koran 44:51-55
...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins)

Koran 52:17-20
...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris
(virgins) we shall wed them...

Koran 55:56-57
In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched
before. Then which of the favors of your Lord will you deny ?"

Koran 55:57-58
Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favors of your Lord
will you deny ?"

Koran 56:7-40
...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving
companions for those on the right hand.. "

Koran 55:70-77
"In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair... Dark eyed virgins
sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before...

Re: # 119
and forgot to mention...add some lethal hatred, violent stuff like this....

Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. (Koran 22:19-22:23)

Re: # 117
Answer is, the biggest and most successful liar on earth committed the earliest work of plagrarism.

Re: # 116
The Ramayana and Mahabharat wars are what exactly? Fighting over Sita with abductor Ravan is what?
Ans: There are thousands of sources of Ramayana. Read it.
Ramayana is not Sita alone. It is the story of Ram ( ideal son (left the kingdom to fulfill the promose of his father), ideal husband ( to bring back Sita from the clutch of abductors...), Ideal King). His entire life was struggle for others...
If Mo. was so humble, then from a poor financial background, how he had accumulated so much wealth when he had died? What crime is left which is not committed by Mo?

Re: # 112

Are you still grappling with this basic question?

Tut..tut..tut...

The answer my friend, is reading the TEXT itself. Do that NOW!

Re: # 113

Mr. Laddu,
Allow me to thank you for addressing me with kindness, but also allow me to say something more.

You said:
This sunnat nonsense...
this eulogizing of Mohammad and his murderous actions...

I say:
Sunnah means what the prophet did and which did not go against God's commands. Along the way he was guided, corrected, and at times warned severely!

Again the litmus-test of the Sunnah is the Quran's text; interpretations can and indeed have varied but it's not impossible to be shown the light by God if one sincerely tried.

The Ramayana and Mahabharat wars are what exactly? Fighting over Sita with abductor Ravan is what? Please desist from bad-mouthing prophets; I've asked you for this before. Grow up from being a laddu to a 'moti-choor ka laddu', please...

And I have not been made familiar with the '40 plus shababiya age' bit as a Muslim. What is this that you mention anyway?

Peace.

Re: # 111

I believe Mr. Laddu, you directed this at me? Have you ever heard of contentment, that inner peace of not being able to own EVERYTHING? I don't mean asceticism or passive sufism which God abhors!

But then, materialism wipes out whatever little humanity one has by raising one's selfish standards while wiping out the poor and the voiceless. Do you live in America; I hope not!

As for: "When the Prophet’s (pbuh) wife put a cushion in his bed he got upset. He consciously lowered his standard of living."

You've added your own views to some historic report. Please quote the original source and I'll get back to you.

Islam polishes one's spirit, increases self-esteem and dignity, and helps everyone attain that too! If that is not happening around you, the fault does not lie in the system but in those individuals.

Peace.

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Re: # 110
Contrary to popular western beilef, Quran is not the creation of a man

Ans: So, from where it has appeared?

What gems from this 'moderate' guy-
"Improving ones standard of living has become an idol whereas I think Islam lowers your standard of living. You become content with less. When the Prophet’s (pbuh) wife put a cushion in his bed he got upset. He consciously lowered his standard of living."

it is amazing! Tomorrow we are going to see donkeys on the streets as the best viable green and energy efficient source of transportation.

Re: # 107

Dear Laddu,

Such a sweet name, and so much bitterness?

Please don't misuse this forum to make anti-Islam demands. What is revealed must be understood and followed. Contrary to popular western beilef, Quran is not the creation of a man.

First thoroughly read your own scriptures which have strong hints of monotheism, anti-usury laws, plenty of good etc. Before I read the Quran, I read all your sacred texts, even Buddhist ones!

Read Dr. Muhammad Asad's Quran translation. Like most Muslims who beleive the mullah instead of reading, comparing and researching, you will be surprised that many things that you accuse Muslims of are either not in the Quran or exist in dubious Hadith literature.

As you desire, name the place and we can meet one day God willing.

Regards.

"And by our nature we do make things. Islamic technology would be very humane. To serve people as opposed to the opposite."

Imam Hamza Yusuf talks about "Islamic technology" as if it is something out of Quran !!

I am amused!!

Imam Hamza Yusuf talks about shababiya and bad mouths other cultural notions of man's life path.
Does he know that this Islamic notion is because Mohammad was a hen pecked husband of a strong independent pagan woman till she died when he was 40 plus.
That , Mohammad went berserk after that and became a woman subduer and a tyrant - that is when he embarked upon the career of murder, loots, rapes and all horrible things in this world!!
This eulogizing and idolizing Mohammad's actions is the cause of current woes.
Mullahs want modern day muslims to be like Mohammad - living off an elderly woman's business and living as a toy boy till 40 plus - and then turning into terrible demons after 40.

we need an Islam that stops terrorizing idolators with horrible violence .

we need Islam that does not proclaim the 'superiority' by shouting Allahu and brandishing sword all the time.

we need Islam that does not bad mouth idolators and kafirs.

we need an Islam that is shorn of hatred towards jews, christians, mushriqs and munafiqoons.

that is the Islam that is acceptable to the modern world- if 'moderate' muslims can spin such an 'Islam' then it is acceptable to the modern world otherwise we are all on the collision course!!!

Re: # 98

"One can only hope that more of our educated class will get involved in traditional Islamic education and convey to the generations to come the soundness of that understanding."

That is already being done by the 'moderate' muslims- while justifying algebra as a consequence of Quran.

This "Quranic Foundationalism" is the source of currents ills. What we need is a group of Anti-Foundationalist thought amongst 'moderate' muslims which seeks to go beyond re-interpreting wife beatings in Quran as 'mild pecking on the cheek'.
We need something more than a watered down version of mullah Islam that rejects TNT and proclaims 'equity' of idolators and mushriqs and munafiqoons in all matters.

#103 Posted by viqarm on January 30, 2008 7:13:19 pm

I know algebra and that shit ain't algebra...

Re: # 70
Our culture is dying, a culture which was full of beauty,wisdom, mercy, magnanimity, love, and patience

Ans: That was demonstrated during 1947 partition.
Poet and art you can not create with formula or training. It is inspired by nature and the sensibility of a person. The more we ( mankind as a whole) are destroying nature, all these will go. Govt. have very little to do with it.

Re: # 100 Hamidm Sahib,
The wife's share is one-eighth of what the man leaves (since, in your example, there are children). That is what the second verse you cited seems to be saying.

Now, of the remaining seven-eighth, the parent's share is a third (i.e. 7/24 of the original estate). The remaining 2/3 of the seven-eights is divided equally amongst the 3 daughters (each gets 7/36 of the original estate).

(1/8) + (7/24) + 3(7/36)
= (1/8) + (7/24) + (7/12)
=(3 + 7 + 14)/24
= 24/24
= 1

Hope it helps your friend from "Liberty" University.

Re: # 56
Each time you say Algorithm or Algebra you are talking about my man Khwarizmi.

Ans: Does that implies, this guy was the origin of the knowledge. Modern world has nice system of patenting. If, India had petented its mathematical knowledge base. It would have the richest country in the world ( number system will fetch money from each piece of computer - both H/W and S/W).

Re: # 73
silly african americans who are anxious to prove that the ancient egyptians were negroes, or get all excited over their ancestor who invented the tooth pick,

Ans: That is correct.

Re: # 99

mecca math

.... muslims might have invented algebra and the vacum cleaner, but it is evident that mo of mecca couldn't do simple arithmetic ..... i know, i know, he was an ummi who never went to school, but that is no excuse for a man who talked to winged angels and flew on winged horses :

here is what a good christian mathmetician at liberty university came up with:


(Koran 4:11)
Allah directs you as regards your children's
(Inheritance): to the male a portion equal to
that of two females: if only daughters, two or
more, Their share is two-thirds of the inheritance;
if only one, her, share is a half.
For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to
each, if the deceased left children; if no
children, and the parents are the heirs, the
mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers
the mother has a sixth...

(Koran 4:12)
In what your wives leave, your share is a half,
if they leave no child; but if they leave a child,
ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and
debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth,
If ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they
get an eighth; after payment.

(Koran 4:176)
...If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister
but no child, she shall have half the inheritance:
If a woman dies and leaves no child, her brother
takes her inheritance: If there are two sisters,
they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance.
If there are brothers and sisters, the male takes
twice the share of the female.

Let us suppose that a man dies and leaves behind three daughters, two parents and his wife. According to the verses stated above the three daughters together will receive 2/3 of the share, the parents will receive 1/3 of the share and the wife will receive 1/8 of the share.

Do the math once again: 2/3 + 1/3 + 1/8 = 9/8 = 1.125. The distribution of the property adds up to more than the available property! How can this distribution be possible? Once again Mohammed displays his inability to add. Well, if a person can't add integers then it is unprobable that he would know how to add fractions.

Another example: A man dies and leaves behind his mother, his wife and two sisters. According to what Mohammed has stated in Koran 4:11-12 and 4:176 the mother will receive 1/3 of the property, the wife will receive 1/4 of the property and the sisters will receive 2/3 of the property.

Let us add up the fractions again: 1/3 + 2/3 + 1/4 = 5/4 = 1.25 and once again it adds up to more than the available property.

........... so, a good muslim can give away a buck and a quarter even though you only have a buck .......that beats the heck out of turning water into wine ..... subhanallah ! ... or, should i say, "verily, we are doomed"

Also, the law works as a system, not individual laws applied in a vacuum. Each law is applied with reference to other laws. It is the responsibility of the man to provide for his family according to Islamic law.So first eliminate this Islamic practise based on the modern consition that women work too, so a man is not respnsible for running the house .. but this is ISlamically and culturally impossible .. so if you start dishing out equal shares to your children, you are being unfair.

As far as wills are concerned, as a last resort even in traditional sunni Islam you can give all your money to one child - it is not recommended - but I gather it is allowed. So if the situation is that bad ad your sons have forsaken you (aalaa Baghban isstyle) then you can bar them from your money by giving it to your daughter before you die.

And Allah knows best.

tahmed32 I understand your concern, but as a few others have pointed out, contextualizing leads to numerous problems.
The problem with Pakistan is that the best minds have set their eyes on lucrative professions such as engineering, law, IT etc. and not many intelligent people study the traditional Islamic sciences. As a result we are short of spokesmen for traditional Islam .. add to this the mallah culture and you have a serious problem on your hands. In this situation people with very shoddy credentials are taken as experts and their understanding is not sound. One can only hope that more of our educated class will get involved in traditional ISlamic education and convey to the generations to come the soundness of that understanding.

This obsession with reform is really misplaced. In the west scholars like Hamza Yusuf, Abdal Hakim Murad, Dr Umar Faruq, Abdullah Bin Bayyah etc. have been able to make such a huge impact. If you are interested check out my blog where I have
excellent links. You will find your questions answered there.

dilsenomad.wordpress.com

sattar: In #91, it is the "how" I am proposing, not (as you assume) the "what" with respect to issues of inheritance.

GT: Look forward to your take on this. However, in examining the issue, please keep in mind what I wrote at the end in bold: " I wont solve the problem - but will end this post by merely pointing to HOW it should be solved: i.e. by a democratically elected national assembly that is bound not by narrow and selective interpretions of the Quran (sharia), but by the broad principles of justice and protection of the weak. "

Thus - in Pakistan, mullahs have been pushing for "shariah" laws for decades. And where they have succeeded (hadood, blasphemy), they have been passed not after free and open debate in a proper parliament (as such important matters should be), but by the stroke of a pen by the scoundrel Zia. And the results are there for too see: the above-mentioned Quranic principles of justice and protection of the weak have been assaulted in the name of Islam!!

That is why it is so important to keep in mind what I wrote above - about the PROCESS (the "how" noted above) is important.

Re #91: Similar reasoning would suggest that Quranic restrictions on pork and wine too are circumstantial and should be done away with. Of course, hygiene codes would ensure cleanliness in pork consumption and legal codes would serve to quell alcohol abuse.

Your view would come across as more genuine if you agree that enjoying a pork chop with a glass of wine is not against Quranic guidance.

While Quran readily grants flexibility in application of its principles, dismissing these principles altogether … in the name of Islam … remains a far-fetched notion.

Tahmed sahib:

" the logic would be to bring laws up to date and give equal amounts to sons and daughters."

Not necessarily!!!! Maybe I should write something about these laws when I have time.

#76 Posted by Urstruly

Urstruly,

Thanks a ton for the reference. I shall read it soon.

welcome dilsenomad..pls visit unplugged section too.

dilsenomad #81: greetings my friend to chowk.
on inheritance laws. The Quranic statement of "2 parts to boys and 1 to girls) is not a principle of itself. Rather, it is the application of a broader principle of justice and protection of the weak that is emphasized in the Quran.

Under the conditions you mention (i.e. boys responsible for parents in old age), you say boys should get twice what girls get. Even under these assumptions, to me it is a weak argument - the two to one ratio is arbitrary and the assumption is very weak indeed (as discussed below).

Let us apply your rule in practice: As a moments reflection on examples you know of will no doubt tell you, he reality is that it is often the daughter who takes care of the parents in old age rather than the son. The 2-1 rule works against in the opposite direction to the one you mention!!


So, does one stick to the application of a principle even if common sense tells us that it in facts works to the detriment of the broader principle? Or does one modify the application to suit reality? Common sense would tell us that in this case, the parent may wish to reward the daughter for taking care of them in their old age by leaving behind their home to one child alone. Or perhaps the parents may wish to reward a poor servant who has served them in their old age, while their own children ignored them? (I am sure you will find such cases in Pakistan - I know a few such unfortunate cases myself).

So, using your example, what is the solution?

In the US and other countries with strong legal frameworks, "Wills" are an obvious and effective means for older people to reward those who were kind to them, rather than being forced to give to other individuals who may be their sons but didnt care for them. But..Pakistan has a very weak legal framework (despite our noble lawyers and Chief Justice now languishing in house arrest as they refuse to bow to the demands of the rogue general musharraf). Even BB's "Will" was not made public, and thus could well have been a concocted document!!

So - we have to use our heads and try to come up with a proper solution. I wont solve the problem - but will end this post by merely pointing to HOW it should be solved: i.e. by a democratically elected national assembly that is bound not by narrow and selective interprettions of the Quran (sharia), but by the broad principles of justice and protection of the weak.

Dearest Uncle,
In me you will find somebody who thinks on the same lines .. somebody for whom the Quran is the first source. Where I differ with you is only that I tend to focus on some of the problems we are facing .. specially our youth who have lost a sense of direction and purpose.I am at the same time full of hope, but am cognizant of the effort that is required to make a stand against the cultural imperialism.

From my negative comments you took the wrong idea and your comments were out of taste. In any case I apologize for giving you the wrong impression.

And Allah knows best.

Re: # 83

The video is not doctored. Just exchange a few posts with hamidm and you find yourself scratching your head.

Re: # 83

The video is not doctored. Just exchange a few posts with hamidm and you find yourself scratching your head.

Re: # 85

Cultural imperialism is indeed a reality. That was not my point.

God(SWT) Law does not Allow cultures that are full of beauty, mercy, kindness, and what not to be easily destroyed. People who have those attributes are also blessed with courage and bravery, something I have been search for with a microscope since I was old enough to think.

Before a people are physicaly defeated, they have morally defeated themselves long time ago. And always entirely of their own efforts, without any help from outsiders.

Unwillingness to search history for reasons of moral decay of peoples/civilization is a symptom of mental laziness where it comes much easier to blame others for one's own faults. It must be caused by deliberate, or induced, amnesia/dementia, which seems to me to a structural problem better addressed by a neurologist.

... Or, perhaps, uncle learnt his principles from a different book (but I only had access to an Arabic Qur'an with translations). Perhaps you can tell me where you learnt yours?

Re: # 72
"You have not given an argument against the claim made about the origins of algebra. Making fun about the argument is not answering the argument. Read what historians have to say about this question. The statement made is inline with serious scholarly work done by historians .. but our modern colonized mind can only respond with ridicule".

While problems of the Muslim inheritance law may be solved using algebra, this does not mean that it was the primary motivator for the development of algebra. Indeed there are also problems in the Rhind Papyrus that can be solved using algebra.

Can you provide some referenes to support your criticism of Hamidm's point?

Uncle, cultural imperialism is a reality, if you are not acknowledging it, then I dont know who has fact confused with fiction.

Or you probably mean by that statement that we never had those things ... again I would say get in touch with a historian .. I can suggest a few names:
Barnaby Rogerson
Karen Armstrong
Amitav Ghosh
Gai Eaton

or do you belive in the imagined construct of the linear direction of progress??

And also if I suffer from delusion, I must see a psychiatrist not a neurologist .. it is possibly a problem with my perception and not the physical wiring.

Re: # 70
"Our culture is dying, a culture which was full of beauty,wisdom, mercy, magnanimity, love, and patience".

Son, you need to immediately see a good neurologist. You seem to be dangerously delusionsal.

Re: # 82
Thanks Eklavya :)I meant disengaging with him .. not everyone else :)
Hey urstruly man that video looks doctored .. the guy in the middle doesnt move for a good ten seconds ... hmmm ..

my blog: dilsenomad.wordpress.com

dilsenomad

Hope you won't 'disengage.' The rule on chowk is to denounce first, listen later. Just get used to it, and you can have some good conversations over time.

Welcome.

Thanks for the headsup urstruly :) I am new and had no idea who this guy was .. you will see me disengage completely. I have no patience for people who are not willing to budge.

tahmed32: Just a comment on what you said, bro not everything can be changed because we think it suits the modern situation. The makasid of shariah law are at times not too obvious to experts let alone laymen. So it is best to trust in Allah and err in caution.
Secondly, in the case you mention it will be illogical to do what you suggest, even today not just in PK but in the modern west too, men are responsible for providing for their families .. men are responsible for taking care of their old parents, thus it is only fair to give them more. IN these times of obsession with political correctness vis a vis western humanistic values if we do as you propose we will be unjust.

Re: # 77

I think you are new on chowk. But you will also figure out that it is better to hit your head against a fast moving truch than arguing with hamidm. In case you are wondering who he is; he is the person sitting at the very right in white dress in this panel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vtx8JOF9AI

how do you argue with him?

you need algebra to figure out that every son gets twice what every daughter gets? and "muslim laws of inheritance" were advanced for their age, and pointed in the direction of greater rights for women.

if one follows the spirit of the Quran, the logic would be to bring laws up to date and give equal amounts to sons and daughters.

But "muslims" in Pakistan follow the Quranic injunctions the way Musharraf follows the Constitution - violate its basic spirit, take selective parts out of it when convenient, add where material if even selected parts are missing, and give the pretense of following the rules by giving detailed references.

Musharraf abuses the Constitution the way Maulvis abuse Islam.

Re: # 77
Another thing .. yes, the west did create the noble television, which is now the strongest narcotic; yes the west did invent the internet and now the most successful business on the net are pornsites .. they certainly have liberated women; yes the west did surely, make scientific progress, ask peopple from Hiroshima how they have benefitted.

Modern man has been able to control the resources of the planet but has not matured spiritually and in his arrogance fails to see this problem ..

Re: # 73
:)
Again I would say your understanding is based on very reductionist understandings, you should be aware of the fact that the majority of the Muslims condemn suicide bombings. The bombings are a result of a break from our traditional Islamic understandings .. and giving into the pseudo modernism many individuals espouse to .. yes in some human endeavours like you mention Muslims are not worthy of mention but the most important human endeavour is being human, my friend. And many in the glorious west are lagging far behind in this. People to this day appreciate the humanity of Muslims, for a change read and see what others have to say about their experiences in the Muslim world .. dont make an idol out of your own thoughts .. like the true modern person, be self critical and engender humility so you learn. Like socrates said: All i know is I know nothing.

If you love the west be like those in the West who are enlightened. Read history bro, many of the Muslim lands have been colonized by the west and they are still recovering.

Give us time and once again we will reign supreme because of our moral integrity and tolerance.

Re: # 74 GT

The following website explains the Muslim Law of Inheritence in quite a detail. When you go down the page to the mathematical computation part of it, you will understand why and how Algebra had to be invented.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article& aid=14

Re: # 74

GT,

... so you blame the poor jews for our silly inheritance laws ?........ how muslim !

#69 Posted by Urstruly:

Urstruly, very very interesting. And Hamid, at least shut up here for you may end looking like a fool here. I know about extremely complicated computations regarding Jewish inheritence laws as put forth in the Talmud. These solutions can be seen as the "nucleolous" of a game. Applications of such solution concepts are now widely prevalent in computation and genetics. So Urstruly may have a point here. I would like to know about references to debates on such laws in Islam. Urstruly ... I will be very grateful (English translations if possible please otherwise Arabic etc. would do).

Re: # 72

dilsenomad,

.... who invented what a thousand years ago is totally irrelevant ..... why are muslims so eager to prove they invented this or that when today most of them are running around butt-naked while chewing on a stick? .... the fact of the matter is that in the last six seven huhdred years muslims have been beaten at every field of human endevour - arts, science, sports and basket weaving ........ like the silly african americans who are anxious to prove that the ancient egyptians were negroes, or get all excited over their ancestor who invented the tooth pick, mohammedans get all worked up over bedouins and persians who could read and write a thousand years ago ....... get over it !

.....what matters is what you are doing now - other than perfecting the art of suicide bombing and washing smelly feet in public restrooms ...........

This is what our discourse looks like .. ridicule .. this is the level of discussion. You have not given an argument against the claim made about the origins of algebra. Making fun about the argument is not answering the argument. Read what historians have to say about this question. The statement made is inline with serious scholarly work done by historians .. but our modern colonized mind can only respond with ridicule.

Anyways, what Dr Hoodboy said has elements of truth to it, what he suggests are good short term strategies .. but I only wanted to point out the a reductionist view of the problem will not get is anywhere ... we need to be critical of the western science as much as our own traiditional understandings .. it would be disingenuous to apply critical rigour to one and not the other ..

urstruly,

"Algebra came into being as a necessity to solve the mathematical problems faced by the people of that time while deciding on the Muslim Inheritence Law"

......... this is just precious ! ........ if it hadn't been for islam, mankind wouldn't have come up with algebra ..... maybe that is why muslims didn't invent toilet paper - we still make do with stones .....

Dr Hoodbhoy, I really appreciate your deconstruction of the claims made by the HEC. As one of my teacher says "I have never seen a revolutionary build the likes of what he destroys". To build something we need craftsmen but to destroy, anyone with a hammer will do". Getting to the point where as you are proficient at pointing out the obvious weaknesses of the project undertaken by the HEC, your suggestions are far from perfect.
Thoughts expressed in the article are very much the stock for intellectuals in Pakistan who are pushing for engineering and sciences in a country that today is need of poets and social scientists, writers, and dramatists. Like many others for you the problem with Pakistan is its material progress, whereas, in truth the problems lies somewhere else. Our culture is dying, a culture which was full of beauty,wisdom, mercy, magnanimity, love, and patience. Individuals pushing for the sciences are the head of this project of throwing out the baby with the bath water .. anglophiles, colonized mentalities, lacking the critical eye which they claim they are promoting. An eye that is incapable of looking beyond the surface.
We are in desperate need of cultural craftsmen who can stop this deathly dance towards destruction, immorality and selfishness ...
What you fail to mention is that the HEC is sending many to study non-engineering subjects, we have historians, sociologists and anthropologists ... these disciplines now need to take center stage .. the engineers have just made a mess of things .. their world view is that just by having more we will be able to fix all the problems. The reality is that our country has the resources but it is distributed with injustice ... we need people to start a movement to awaken our collective conscience ..

And what you suggest will just make the situation worse .. resouces wasted again .. another dead end.

dilsenomad.wordpress.com

Re: # 62

The word "algebra" emerged from the branch of mathematics called "Al Jabr al Muqabla" by Arab mathematicians. The phrase could roughly be translated as "Equations and comparitors". Algebra came into being as a necessity to solve the mathematical problems faced by the people of that time while deciding on the Muslim Inheritence Law, that prescribes several portions of inheritence to be disburesed among survivors of a deceased, instead of a disbursement through a will. However, one thrid of the inheritence can be bequethed through a will; the two-thrid is disbursed thru fixed portions.

Re: # 67

You cannot just pluck someone off the streets....

We do not have to, but why not provide chances to people who would want to? Why do we have to disqualify somebody just because he lacked the skills to regurgitate the concepts from a text book?

Is research not an incremental knowledge acquisition?

Re: # 66 no but these are just first level indicators ...after that it is upto him//her to show their ability.

You cannot just pluck someone off the streets....

Do we still have to stick on to the perception that a person becomes eligible to be called a scientist or given infrastructure to do research or can be employed by R&Ds only if he scores well in his exams, gets enough degrees and have a PhD?

Re: # 59
Moslems use green does not imply Green is absolutely patented to moslems.

Re: # 62
Yeah...Like Sunya was translated into arabic and known as Zero.
Back to the basic point; strengthening higher education without looking at the foundation is utmost foolishness.

Re: # 45
Without theoritical knowledge base, you can not achieve anything in current context. We are carrying legacy of thousands years of human civilisation. So, whet knowledge is already created learn using theory.

Some people are commenting about poor drinking water etc...problem. Indian population is so huge, the solution lies more in population control than anything else.

Algebra was arabic invention by man called Al Jabri
AL+jiberi= Aljebri led to Algebra

#60 Posted by Eklavya on January 29, 2008 6:36:13 pm

and the algebra thing that haideri claims mo abu-whateva invented is "islamic" because the numbers always point to mecca?

Arjun, let's be a little accurate there. There was nothing 'Hindu' about those numerals in any religious sense. The number system was a product of the Indian thought, which could be described as 'Hindu' only in geographical terms.

#58 "Newton himself walked on the shoulders of other giants."

Those were the Jolly Green Giants. And we all know that the Green color is the muslim color. So those were Jolly Muslim Giants.

Re: # 41

All this talk about "muslim" contribution to science is nonsense.

Newton himself walked on the shoulders of other giants. Any one with an understanding of the history of sciences would know that there is a progression of scientific thoughts - almost like Thomas Kuhn's "scientific programs' . So when the idoators' scientific program reaches maturity and the momeens descend upon them - kill them and convert a good number of them- the scientific program becomes 'muslim'.

And Islamists take over these existing scientific programs and call the 'muslim contribution'. This is laughable, that bedoiun population loots civilized world and abduct their scientists and then claim the slave contribution to be their own.

It is like the Americans appropriating the black music as 'their jazz'. It is like some Saudi Arabic sheikh inviting other countries to set up R&D Centres and then calling the research from those R&D centres as "Islamic" contribution to the modern science and technology.

Lahol!!!!

Nice article prof hboy.

I think you fundamentally differ from approach of HEC by believing more in bottom up approach rather than top down. I liked your idea of teacher training and using wisdom more than money.

But at times, it also seems like you have a personal prejudice against HEC or its personnel.

Re: # 54
He wrote two books. You are not going to mention the second book because it does not serve your purpose.

1) Kitab al-Jama wal-Tafreeq bil Hisab al-Hindi (+ - using Hindu numerals)

2) Al-Maqala fi Hisab-al Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah (Algebra)

Each time you say Algorithm or Algebra you are talking about my man Khwarizmi.


haideri

It's heartless to spend Rs. 1000+ crores on Moon Mission when there are thousands of villages without safe drinking water. India's lunacy knows no bounds.

There are dozens of research instts in India, which dont produce any research of global standards.

There seem to be any linkage btw research instts and policy makers at least. For eg. there is this Central Road Research Institute (CRRI)but if we look @ the quality of Indian roads it reminds us of hell & CRRI seem to be oblivious of the ground situation. They dont care abt the quality of roads or they are busy going to US for a seminar or making bills for further grants from the Union govt.

Less said the better abt the research in India (it's good that there's a growing disinterest in research).

#41 Posted by haideri on January 29, 2008 5:38:36 am


Nobody is denying the importance of zero and contribution of Hindus.


Umm...you offered , as an example of islamic contribution to algebra and whatnot, someone whose book was called "On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals"



And here you are going overboard



Umm..overboard for quoting wikipedia? I take it reality and you aren't on good terms...

let me clue you in on a little secret...more than the zero, it was the place value system that forms the basis of everything..the zero was an invention to get around the problems in a place value system without one. in fact, all modern computing is based on place value systems....binary, hex, octal etc.

p.s. you miss the point by a mile...while the muslims of the past were doing great things by sharing and developing knowledge, the muslims of today are only sharing the knowledge of making suicide bomb vests...

#50 Posted by iron_mask:

No, don't get me wrong. People like your friend are not uncommon. But I am talking trends here. The average quality of research/teaching is falling because researchers/teachers are badly paid and research is becomming an expensive business.

It is a bit unfair to romanticize "research", "knowledge" etc. I am in the field and I know what wives and kids of Indian academics have to go through even when the academic is blissfully conducting research (which again is not generally true).

As far as China and India are concerned, I really do not know .... and maybe I do not care much too.

GT given the trajectories of India and China (and seeing your comments re:china), I was wondering if you give us an idea of where things will stand in a few years time from now (say using 10 year windows (so 10, 20, 30, 50 years from now)) - in terms of education and science and research and development.

Here is an interesting point to note - often forgotten the steam engine in times was a device which the science of that time said it could be done. Infact the engine's basics principles were explained many years after its invention!

Re: # 48 Also it is true re:science. I know the the aec are recruiting engineers and training them in their facilities to do pure science work. For they find pure scientists if available lack the ability of the common engineer.

It is sometime strange to find that a metallurgist is working as a physicist, and a chemical engineer (from VJTI) as Chemist in many critical govt labs.

Re: # 48 GT that is very true...a friend of mine a professor in IITB has had the same problem....even after all these years of toil they man cannot afford a decent flat in Mumbai, let alone a holiday his kids afford themselves these days in places like Kerala.

But here is the rub the friend is not at all unhappy - he is not in it for the money - for him the search for the solution of a problem (and coincidently he was also a complex dynamics man) was a drug and pursuit of knowledge itself was the goal.

Even in the west, the people who do the real work are these people who live lives of an ascetic and there are many like them. The Negroponte's of this world are few. The main difference is that in the west you can have a decent house in a decent location and atleast dream of a decent car and the odd holiday.

Re: # 47

The only thing that used to motivate students, to take up agri courses, was the lure of a government job. Needless to say that the agriculture officers never visit the fields. They don't even try to learn from the farmers. Selling the subsidized govt seeds, pesticides and fertilizers to the local shops, is the only thing they have mastered.

The smart crooks form a syndicate and make sure that the odd genuine learner is made obsolete. (Surprisingly I see this trait more pronounced in the americans)

The agriculture officers unashamedly market the chemical fertilizers of the private players. They increased the fertilizer and pesticide recommendations multi-folds than what was needed. As a result the soil quality degraded which resulted in wiping out the organic agents and thus the production. These AOs can also be credited for the farmers' suicide.

Many farmers, of late, have started seeking knowledge and are using their fields as labs.

My dad, an engineer who resigned his government job, is one among them.

Cont.... "Science in India"

This is from todays Hindu:

"Bangalore: “Interest in science, as we see it, is going down, with most people going for engineering and technology-related fields. They fail to realise that basic science is the mother of all such technology,� said K.N. Shankara, Director, ISRO Satellite Centre, Bangalore, speaking at a workshop on “Indian Odyssey in Space.�"

Mother of all technology! Well, so what? Does it allow me to raise a family who I can take for a vacation once a year? These guys like Shankara should be put behind bars. I remember Pres. Kalam once ask why should salaries be raised for teachers ... they should simply be in the profession because it is "noble". One should really ask these technocrats, who pass off as "scientists" in India, to STFU or become management gurus in the US like C.K. Prahalad .... bloody idiots.

#45 Posted by Kulharee:

I agree fully. You cannot just look at "education" in isolation. Most state universities in the US were set up to boost agriculture! No one seems to be paying attention to agricultural universities in India, though they exist in each and every state (I must say that rural development is gradually becomming hotter for students in IIMs ... of all places). But the basic point is that we Indians (i.e. those who can eat and wear yellow shoes and therefore "count" in society)are essentially interested in Bollywood, Ambanis and Tatas and cricket. As long as glitz is provided by these sectors we are happy and content. Baki sab jaye tel lene ....

#44 continued....

Apart from finances, research can be a very frustrating experience. Minds with great potential often suffer when their research "fail", i.e. they are not able to come up with the proper theory or a small snag in their experiments lead to their result being discarded or they are beaten in the "race" etc. Things are getting very very difficult at the frontiers of science. There are many more failures now that even 15 years ago. Add to it the greater emphasis put on experimental evidence and hence more resources, it is but natural for basic research to die out in third-world countries. Of course, dictatorial regimes like those in China can put forth these huge funds without an iota of consideration for the best use of these funds. But I do not see the market allocate scarce resources for such use in countries like India. Exceptions, of course, exist (say in the field of bio-technology where the funds are market generated ... the IBM lab in IIT Delhi is more "applied" than "basic").

Re #44 - That’s so spot on GT Sahib. My Professor, who wrote on Indo-Pak industrial base, concluded that Pak and India can do without theoretical scientists, what they need is more resourceful ones. What good is a Nobel Prize without access to clean drinking water.

Getting people to do research is somewhat difficult if there is a lack of interest. For, 70% of "good research" has to do with the formulation of a good question. Without interest, comming up with a question is difficult. However, it is relatively easy to teach them how to solve (simple variants) of well known problems.

I do not know about Pakistan, but in India today there is a tremendous demand (also generated from other parts of the world) for problem solving, from management to engineering to coding. As a result supply is appropriately channeled. Of course there is that 0.5% of geniuses (not only in India, but accross the world) who will do what they want to do and at times it happens to be research in sciences otherwise you see them in literature, music etc etc.

In India there is this notion (amongst politicians and pundits) that we have to encourage basic research, we have to beat China etc. At times it makes me laugh. My colleagues in the Indian Institute of Science do their best to discourage PhD applicants to get into research. Here is how it goes: "You are a very smart guy, why do you want to work on complex dynamics"; "In two years time you will see your friends earn 50 times what you can ever hope to earn"; If you leave the program half-way you will be no-where" etc. Of course, this is a screening device. But it also lays bare the fact that the life of a researcher in India is difficult. That is because there is no demand for them. After all, even Hoodbhoy is in demand basically for his political commentary.

Re: # 42

Kulharee,
I am a Kizilbash and a Persian. Many of the guys mentioned in my reply are Persians. And I agree with rest of your Post.

haideri

Re #41 Haideri, what have any of these Arabs have to do with Pakistanis or Indians? Shouldn’t you be showing pride in your own heritage for inventing zero? One thing is for sure that before Al Gore invented the internet, none of these Arabs were known of any Pakistani. Now go and google Pakistani DNA, and search for all your ancestors from India.

Professor’s essay is way too ambitious. What Pakistan needs is not number of publication or higher educational institutes, but a solid elementary and secondary education for all. It’s hard to produce world-class scientists from a crumbling and sorryass elementary school system of Pakistan. A country with less than 30% literacy rate shouldn’t be worried about number of Publications, but more basic needs. In addition, Islamiat has got to go, in the dumpster.

Re: # 40

Nobody is denying the importance of zero and contribution of Hindus. The problem is you are suffering from psychological blindness. And here you are going overboard
"An early decimal system was clearly in use by the inhabitants of the Indus valley civilization by 3000 BC"

Did you get a chance to search for?

Alhazen
Geber
Ibn Sina
Al-Biruni
Ibn Rushd
Al-Battani
Al-Farghani

haideri

#33 Posted by haideri on January 28, 2008 9:13:47 pm

goatbrain: we've been through this before...like I told masadi, the muslims from a long long time ago were interested in learning stuff and spreading knowledge...like the place value system they learn from india...that's a very good thing

In fact, Al-Khwarizmi's book was called "On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals"

the muslims of today only share knowledge of suicide vest and car bomb making techniques.


now get a clue...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu-Arabic_numeral_syst em

An early decimal system was clearly in use by the inhabitants of the Indus valley civilization by 3000 BC. Excavations at both Harappa and Mohenjo Daro reveal decimal weights belonging to "two series both being decimal in nature with each decimal number multiplied and divided by two, giving for the main series ratios of 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, and 500."[3] Also, marked rulers at Lodhar reveal gradations of 1.32 inches (3.35 centimetres), ten of which are 13.2 inches, possibly something akin to a "foot" (similar measures exist in other parts of Asia and beyond). Markings on these and other texts reveal a number system with symbols for the numbers one through nine, and separate symbols for 10, 20, 100; thus the decimal system is highly developed though place-value is not used.

Linguistic comparison among Indo-European languages (ca. 3000 BC), shows a decimal enumeration system [4]. In early Vedic texts, composed between 1500 BC and 800 BC, we find Sanskrit number words not only for counting numbers in very large ranges, ranging up to 1019, with some puranas referring to numbers as large as 1062[5].

Historians trace modern numerals in most languages to the Brahmi numerals, which were in use around the middle of the third century BC.[6] The place value system, however, evolved later. The Brahmi numerals have been found in inscriptions in caves and on coins in regions near Pune, Mumbai, and Uttar Pradesh. These numerals (with slight variations) were in use over quite a long time span up to the 4th century AD[6].

There is indirect evidence that the Indians developed a positional number system as early as the first century CE[6]. The Bakhshali manuscript (c. 3d c. BCE) uses a place value system with a dot to denote the zero, which is called shunya-sthAna, "empty-place", and the same symbol is also used in algebraic expressions for the unknown (as in the canonical x in modern algebra). However, the date of the Bakhshali manuscript is hard to establish, and has been the subject of considerable debate. The oldest dated Indian document showing use of the modern place value form is a legal document dated 346 in the Chhedi calendar, which translates to 594 CE[6]. While some historians have claimed that the date on this document was a later forgery, it is not clear what might have motivated it, and it is generally accepted that enumeration using the place-value system was in common use in India by the end of the 6th century. [7]. Indian books dated to this period are able to denote numbers in the hundred thousands using a place value system. [8] Many other inscriptions have been found which are dated and make use of the place-value system for either the date or some other numbers within the text [6], although some historians claim these to also be forgeries.

Re: # 37 This problem of management.
In univ. there is too much pressure on professor here either publish or perish. Management should reward research but smae time reward for good teaching, interest in students.Overemphesis on research and publication in foren leads to such things in desperation as promotions or visiting foren to present paper etc. Management needs to think as they should produce good people not hope for einstein etc or like jews they are more talanted in brain dept than all people of des.

IN an interview with the Wall Street Journal, President Pervez Musharraf said: “Please differentiate Pakistan from banana republics� where a lowly colonel can take over the state. “These things don’t happen in Pakistan� (Jan 25).
////////////////

Pakistan has teh same approach regarding research, it is not the lowly student who plagiarises, it is teh professors who are doing it to get more money. In pakistan there are no banana universities, they are only in banana republics.

Pervez,

I wish you all the best for your tireless efforts to improve Pakistan. But the system is rotten at the core.

Mushy dismisses a few judges, appoints new ones who over turn all of the earlier judgements. Is there something called precedence rules, jurisprudence in Pak legal system.

200 soldiers led by a colonel surrenders to a few jihadis. The military negotiates and gets their release. Is there any notion of valor in the pak army.

Wheat production is exaggerated, wheat is exported and now there is shortage. T%hen there is the latest, industrial production is exagerated. No one can believe any numbers.

Last week professor and head of department of Punjab uni is caught for plagiarism.

Bhutto is shot dead and the president says she killed herself by banging on a car part.

Pervez, in such a society is it possible to have any scientific enquiry.

Wish you the best.

Re: # 33

He also made major contributions to the fields of algebra, trigonometry, astronomy/astrology, geography and cartography. His systematic and logical approach to solving linear and quadratic equations gave shape to the discipline of algebra, a word that is derived from the name of his 830 book on the subject, Hisab al-jabr wa al-muqabala (حساب الجبر و المقابلة).

Ans: Quadratic and other similar equations originated in India. Sridharacharya is father of quadratic equation.So, the information here is not correct.

Baysharmo,

Kissay Baysharam Noo Kissay Banday Aakhiya....Teri Bund Tay Boota Ugyaa....Baysharam Aakhiya Chalo Changa Aay, Chanvaan Bavaan Gaa

Also search for

Alhazen
Geber
Ibn Sina
Al-Biruni
Ibn Rushd
Al-Battani
Al-Farghani

on either Wikipedia or Indopedia

haideri

My dear Indian Crack Team,

Please read about dude in question on your own website.
http://www.indopedia.org/Al-Khwarizmi.html

haideri

#31 Posted by nkg on January 28, 2008 8:08:24 pm

Muslims, a long long time ago, did contribute a lot. Some mo abu-whatever masadi posted about took knowledge from india to europe..all that is commendable...but masadi claims he invented algebra and things that were of indian origin, like the place value system and zero, were actually insignificant..which is funny considering the book he wrote and took to the west was called the hindu numeric system or something like that.

Re: # 24
I think this is core of Islam. Steal from somebody and claim as owner of it.
Entire Indian mathematics, they claim their own.
Trigonometry, Number System, Grammar,Beejaganita ( which is now known as Alzebra), various forms of equiations and problem solving methods.

Re: # 23
Nuke technology in both India and Pakistan are from Western Countries. Indian nuke has its origin in Russia. Paki is from Canada and Sweeden. A Q Khan, who stolen the technology from Western Countries was covetedly ignored by USA.
Regarding defence technology, India is still trying acquire some technology ( LCA, Kaveri Engine, GSLV etc...). Entire Pakistani (so called) technology is from China and North Korea, who in turn has got it from Russia.
A country which can not produce a decent car can not indegenously develop sophisticated technology (whatever you claim).

#28 Posted by sattar2 on January 28, 2008 1:29:56 pm

what has IBM stolen? or intel for that matter?

bubba,

Don't knock chor bazaari; this is how most corporations - IBMs and Intels of the world, function. Knowing what to steal and how to steal it is genuine talent. Don't knock it till you've tried it ...

Re: # 23 Posted by Kamath on January 28, 2008 5:49:41 am

Kamath sahib,

[how come Pakistani scientists or engineers could build Nukes, Missiles, etc.?] By stealing and chor bazaari. Is that in your equation of excellence?

Re: # 5 "I believe the students should be given practical training to solve the society problem. I would prefer to train a student how to slaughter a chicken hygienically than ask him/her to write a paper that has no relevance to our problems."


That is a very patronising and lop-sided view nangapir - you need a healthy mix for the progress.

#5 Nangapir
Plz tell us more - fill in the juicy bits
whats her name - nationality? How does Dr. Atta know her, etc etc

#23 Posted by Kamath on January 28, 2008 5:49:41 am

It's simple..they didn't. Their missiles were built by the chinese and north koreans..pakis just painted them over..nuclear bombs aren't exactly cutting edge technology.


ask yourself: if the pakis are so good at the missile stuff, why haven't they launched a satellite..why are they reduced to renting out 3rd hand hughes POS satellites and calling them paksat?

Re: # 3

Arjun! Tell me then how come Pakistani scientists or engineers could build Nukes, Missiles, etc.? Is it possible to build them without excellant content in graduates of Pak. Universities.?

Kamath

#10 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 27, 2008 8:20:05 pm


Arjun you admit Indians are not after knowledge but just dirty money ?


it's not an either or thing..you need knowledge to make money..I'm just disputing the knowledge gained from a masters course...

Most Indian grads, IIT or otherwise, breeze through the masters courses...frankly, unless you do a phd, you can't really say you gained knowledge...

so while the pursuit of money and a career might be anathema to those of the jihadi persuasion i.e. pakis, it's a perfectly legitimate goal...money through knowledge..

#13 Posted by tahir on January 27, 2008 9:19:12 pm


There are fundamentalist-terrorists in many countries; let's try and control our own sides first.


Really? how many terrorists from india are in gitmo? how many from the land of the pure?

hardly a week goes by without a terrorist from you-know-where being busted somewhere around the globe..

it's not a coincidence...while india was busy building it's IITs, you all were busy building your jihadi training factories to produce jihadis for your strategic wet dreams



Who sponsored them; certainly not Islam?


You sponsored them..your army and your government...it's your creation...


spare us the platitudes..

nkg,

You are far removed from realities. People go to gulf for the sake of money because it will help in their
1. Children's education
2. Marriage
3. Medicare etc...

Re: # 17
Money out of R&D
Ans:
This is personal feeling. When you do something, which changes life of millions of people and offers you job satisfaction, it is definitely not dirty money.
People go to gulf for the sake of money only, not for some good quality work or learning.
I had interacted with a person (he is an IITian), who had moved from technical space to management space. When he was telling that he was part of ARPANET project (INTERNET project), I was feeling the sentiment (I was telling about Ticket Reservation Project of Indian Railway).

The European varsities are in dire need of funds and hence actively soliciting foreign students. This could be the same with the american universities. Rather than spending to build institutions from scratch, why should not the Pakistanis request the western varsities provide education for their students. They could spend the money allotted for higher education towards their fees till a critical mass is reached.

Once you attain the critical mass of intellectual capital, you can always build your own institutions.

The problem with us is, we have not understood the importance of students making mistakes, getting concepts wrong etc...We need everything touchwood and never let the student err and research on what went wrong. His scoring in the exams are the only indicators that would decide the student's fate and this slowly killed the adventurism in the students and led to this decay.

Re: # 15

There is nothing like dirty money till you make it within the precincts of law. Afterall, the guy who has had a 'decent graduation' too works for the money, right?

Money out of R&D or a 9-5 job is no different.

Dunno, if quality of life motivates people in wild life studies, photography etc...

Re: # 13
Please don't parot what has become fashionable all over the globe. These same madrassah simpletons were initially Mujahids, then Taliban, and now condemned to being terrorists. Who sponsored them; certainly not Islam?

Ans: Again denying the fact. If Islam is not the reason, then why USA will use Islam to foster terrorism using Islamic institutions (Mosques and Madrassehs)?

Re: # 14
If you are interested in money alone, then do a somewhat decent graduation and go to gulf countries...Quality of life may not be good, but amount of money is comparable to USA...
Mr. Ahmed Madani, this is what we consider dirty money....
Working in R & D section of Tech Giants like GE, Boeing, NASA, Microsoft, Apple, Intel, HP, IBM, Google is not dirty money....

While arjun is right to some extent, quite a few IITians come here with genuine interest in higher education and research. They want to do intellectually challenging work and of course, make money as well. Some people are just interested in getting a M.S. and jumping into the job market, but that is an individual preference....different strokes for different folks...

Re: # 3
Mr. Arjun,

I agree 'institutions take time to build' but the rest of your comments don't belong here.

There are fundamentalist-terrorists in many countries; let's try and control our own sides first.

Please don't parot what has become fashionable all over the globe. These same madrassah simpletons were initially Mujahids, then Taliban, and now condemned to being terrorists. Who sponsored them; certainly not Islam?

Shanti now.

Re: # 10
Dirty money comes from different way ...
Do you know the competetion you need to face to get admitted in Graduate program in IITs? I don't think, it is money alone, that motivate educated people. These US companies provide excellent working environment and opportunity to learn and execute your innovation...
Most of it is job satisfaction...

Re: # 6 Aitullah Khakali = he was very radical and called hanging judge of Iran. Many times executions were carried out and then trial ( A titled book describing excess of horrible "revolutons" Zeemax should read Darkness at noon by A.Kostrler, authoer of Yogi and commissor)
There was another mad aytullah rigo or something like that he even hanged and killed "shah's" horse.
Zeemax is just getting too excited to use his "G" machine.

Re: # 8 Arjun you admit Indians are not after knowledge but just dirty money ? and like to be servant to white cream colored people ?
Please give straight answers. No crude art of cut paste appreciated. Just yes or no
Thanks

Re: # 8
Are you sure? At least upto let 1990s, the Technical Education situation was like that...
For post graduate study and research 1st choice would be MIT or other US technical schools. After completion, people used to join Motorola, Intel, Compaq, IBM , GM ,Microsoft,Oracle,NASA...
If people fail to get admission in US universities (low GRE score or financial assistance problem), people used to study M.Tech in IITs. Most of the IIT M.Techs are from local Engineering Colleges/R E Cs. The IIT grads study M.Tech in IITs are just preparing for their UPSC exams...
As per quality of research and advanced study is concern, IITs were far behind their US counterparts.
IISc ( Banglore) is the only institution in India, which focusses primarily on Research and is almost at par with EU/USA standard.
Whatever Vinod Khosla, Arun Sarin, Vymoesh Joshi etc... completed their Masters in US universities.

#7 Posted by nkg on January 27, 2008 7:02:21 pm


They are excellent graduate schools. But, as per as post graduate study is concerned, most of the people depend upon US universities.


IIT grads don't come to US universities for the education...they come for the job openings in the US after their graduations...most IIT grads sail through post-grad.

Eductaion reform should start at primary/secondary level and then it should reach to higher level. It is better to bring back the expertriate fellow citizens than foreign experts to teach in local universities.
Education reforms takes time. China has started that long back. So, if you are trying to emulate China, then please keep patience. Only if, the nation is thoroughly motivated, then only the miracle can happen (turn around within 10 years). Vietnam is nice example of that.But ground situation in Pakistan is something different.
Regarding Techinical/Management institute, without good Industry you can not build good institues. They are complement to each other.
Regarding IITs ( in India). They are excellent graduate schools. But, as per as post graduate study is concerned, most of the people depend upon US universities. The cream of India carries out higher studies in USA/UK/Australia etc... Bring back those who have completed higher study in USA. USA is nice friend of Pakistan. They will definitely help ( Unlike India in past. I can remember, for Microwave Lab in our college, the professor used to get scared to hand over the equipment to the students (in 1990s). The equipment was very costly. It was imported from USA. Furthermore, this equipment can be used for defence purposes, so, it was very difficult to get permission from US).
Here in my native state ( West Bengal), I see regular revision of syllabus of seciondary and higher secondary curriculum ( Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, English etc...).

It is the 5th columnists like Hoodbhoy who have been paving the way for a privitized schooling system with no or minimal state supervision, as directed by his US and European masters. The idea was that a privitized elementray education system will be produce non-ideological vocational drones who would be non-questioning cogs in the wheel of capatilism. The corrupt foujis and their ideological mentors like hoodbhoy and ataur rehman have totally fukked up the elementary education of this land. I do not think there is any hope of its recovery - unless of course if there is an Ayatullah sadiq khalkhali and his guillotine factory. I think we should say the last rites of education system in pakistan... inna lillahe wa inna ilaihe rajeoon.

Atta Ur Rehman with his cronies is selling this lie as Pakistan army selling jihad to make money. Atta Ur Rehman in early 2001 sent returned ticket and hotel and other expenses to his girl friend in Mountain View California to participate in a science conference in Islamabad. The funny thing is the poor babe does not know English so she takes a helper with her in American grocery stores. And her husband was also invited as an expert to the conference. Not only this some engineers copied satellite imaging and other papers and printed a journal and got promoted. I believe the students should be given practical training to solve the society problem. I would prefer to train a student how to slaughter a chicken hygienically than ask him/her to write a paper that has no relevance to our problems.

How can you expect universities to produce quality students if there's problem with the schooling?

And regarding that Univ. By french - Speechless
The whole system is messed up.

Institutions take time to build. You can't build educational institutions overnight just because you envy your neighbor's educational institutions and are prepared to throw money at the problem.

Pakis, of all people, should know that. They've been investing for a long time in their IITs(institutes of islamic terrorism aka madrassahs)...The result is obvious. Just like India's IIT grads are making their mark all over the world, Paki IIT grads i.e. the madrassah graduates are making their mark by being busted for terrorism in American ,spain, england, france, australia and canada.

We should not be surprised when a bureaucrat from the World Bank writes good reports about another bureaucratic institution such as the HEC. Then, throw in this mix the bureaucrats of the military government, and this becomes a rangeela naach of the bureaucrats.

We need to produce more Kasuris, who in turn, will give the uneducated more Beaconhouse schools, higher fees, tons of A-scorers, and droves of escape artists. Here, they only have brains that willingly let the best brains drain away. What a country brown-sahib!

Newspapers feed government lies anyway; we shall see.

Peace.