Taliban, Pashtoons and Pakistan

i am currently trying to get some software engineers into pakistan, for some projects......i cannot get anyone to go......forget about americans and french (and indians)......even egyptians aren't going......the few that were there, left after the emergency......yes egyptians - people from a country, which has been in an emergency for decades!!


Poor Romair 67.

Have you heard the news that the british high commission is shifting to Dubai. More are planning to shift. Britan has offered open skies to PIA as they are withdrawing from flights to pakistan.

Take it from me romair, when most of teh bank robberies are done by the bank security guards..well not many would want to be in that country.

Have you heard of the latest. The jundella jihadi group are involved in bank roberies and kidnappings...not many would want to come to a country where religious groups are becoming robers, robing in the name of god.

Re: # 71

Yes. It is unfortunate but draws the lines clearly I think.

#64 by majumdar

What was indefensible was Pakistan and USA's creation and support of Taliban (USA's support allegedly at the behest of Unocal and their likes) to rule A'stan by proxy in 1995-2001.

Exactly my point Majumdar bhai. Even at the end of the Afghan war, things hadn't spilled into Pakistan's tribal areas with the conflict amongst various warlords remaining within Afghanistan and whatever little activity in the tribal areas (things like support to warlords like Hekmatyar) happening very much under the radar. It was only the creation of the Taliban and their active support to the Al Qaeda that changed things. Now how much of it is attributed to the US and how much to the Paki army remains moot, but IMO at best the US can be accused of not foreseeing the Taliban becoming taking over the whole of the country. It is the Paki army that trained, armed, and in many instances fought alongside them. Seymour Hersh's report on how Paki officers fighting alongside the Taliban were evacuated by PAF (or the PA) helicopters while the USAF gave them a safe corridor to Pakistan is one of the most compelling pieces of investigative journalism on Paki collusion.

HP sain,

#69

So basically what you are saying is that there is no impediment (constitutional or otherwise) to Pak military presence in FATA (which is I guess what it shud be like). In that case Pak army shud go inside and clean out the Paki Talibs if that is what the GOP thinks is the best for Pakistan.

Romair,

(pakistan has neither the strength, nor the means, to fight usa nor to fight the taliban.......)

Agreed about fighting the US part, not sure about Pak Army not having the strenght to fight the Talibs. More like Pak Army does not want to for:

Desire to keep a strategic asset alive.
Unwillingness to absorb militray casualties and terrorist attacks on civilians.

Regards

#66 Posted by MantoLives
"Unfortunately... our histories have gotten so entagnled with "ideology"

Pavo, at this time is looking to find every fault that he could find to justify his pro-jihadi bent. I believe that all the JI inspired have gone back to the Madoodi thesis before the partition: ML bad, Congress good!

Re: # 67

I am afraid money is not a good enough reason to abandon our good friends the tribals. You are wrong about the Egyptians though. Why only yesterday I met with a group of Egyptian investors who were laughing when I mentioned the security threat.

Here is another tip... an Egyptian holding company took over three major companies in Pakistan recently... WOL, DOLS and Z-wll... all in the aftermath of Benazir's assassination. How is that possible.

Just admit that you are way out of your depth.

#65 Posted by majumdar
"I have understood Zee sahib correctly,"

Half the time Zee sahib does not know where is right hand is!

dada, if you want to discuss this with me then you need to have better references.

The Pak army always had presence in the tribal areas. The FC is a new thing before that it was all army. Even the FC is managed by the army!

Dada, please just read the posts and save your opinions. Asking questions is okay!
Temp military campaign or the long term presence both are okay.

Re: # 66

Infact... it was in the context of the Unionists' hold over Punjab that MAJ made that comment about Punjab being a hopeless place... because of the politics of the Punjabi feudals which were anathema to both Nehru and Jinnah especially in 1936.

Ref: Pavocavalry's post.

...i am currently trying to get some software engineers into pakistan, for some projects......i cannot get anyone to go......forget about americans and french (and indians)......even egyptians aren't going......the few that were there, left after the emergency......yes egyptians - people from a country, which has been in an emergency for decades!!

why is all this happening.....because bombs are going off in lahore and islamabad......not really because of the martial law (china is under a dictatorship, and does booming business)......martial law is bad for institutions, but the economy ignores it, as long as there is peace in the country and a demand for business.......

pakistan, currently, has huge demand for software.....people can become millionaires, in this field......india is saturated and is running out of IT engineers....companies (including indian companies) need to go to other countries, now.....on top of that, from what i have seen, i have yet to see a city in south asia with a better infrastructure than islamabad; nor have i seen a better, "older city" in south asia than lahore....both islamabad and lahore are quite a bit better than bangalore.....i visit all three regularly....

yet, pakistan has such a poor reputation in the world for business safety.....people will go to sri lanka and israel, two countries that are in a state of civil war......but not pakistan!!

all because of our policies which are rooted in emotion, in what happened 60 years ago, and in arm twisting of usa......

who gives a flying f what jinnah said 60 years ago and what tribals did then......they had a job to do, and they did it......if i commit a crime today, should i be forgiven, because of what my great grandfather did 75 years ago.......let's wake up and live in the 21st century....we can build a monument for jinnah and those tribals, but what is happening today is what is important....

similarly, why in the world is it pakistan's job to fight usa's war on terror......usa has pissed off the so many arab countries; primary by killing their people....let the usa fight them.....why should pakistan let the war be fought in pakistan.......by pakistan, i mean lahore and islamabad and karachi; not fata.......

so let fata fight usa, if it wants.....and let usa fight fata if it wants.....and not support either.......both the usa leadeship and fata leadership are nuts.....they will destroy each other......let them do so, without getting involved......pakistan has neither the strength, nor the means, to fight usa nor to fight the taliban.......

in the meanwhile, let's live in the 21st century and see what we can do to create a situation where computer scientists want to go to pakistan and do business.....

majumdar,

Agreed.

Correction: MAJ (PBUH) did not work with the Unionist feudals with the exception of the Sikandar Jinnah pact. After this MAJ delivered a stinging defeat to the Unionists in 1946 elections. It was the Congress and the British together came to the rescue of the Unionist feudals in 1946 by forming the government... to the utter disappointment of the League and the communists who were favoring a League-Congress coalition.

Please read this article: http://www.chowk.com/articles/12747

Unfortunately... our histories have gotten so entagnled with "ideology" and "compartments"... anti-partition pro-partition ... anti-Jinnah pro-Jinnah... etc that we have stopped recognizing the facts.

HP sain,

Re: #62

There is no question that FATA is an integral part of Pkaistan. But (I am not aware of FATA's constt) if I have understood Zee sahib correctly, Pakistan Army is not allowed to be in FATA at all as per their understanding. (However correct me if I wrong.) So the status quo gets violated the moment Pak Army entres W'stan.

Are you suggesting a temporary military campaign in W'stan and then after the militants are taken care of, the Pak Army withdraws and the status quo is restored?

Regards

Manto mian,

I dont blame either the US Govt. or for that matter even G. Zia and the GOP for supporting the jihad in A'stan during the period 1979-88. What were they supposed to do when an expansionist and evil power (which is what USSR was regardless of what Masadi may say) was occupying another country? For Pakistan it was a serious threat. And there was the matter of Vietnam to be avenged. And if this was the case they had to work with whatever was available (just like MAJ (pbuh) had to work with the Unionist feudals) which meant ethinc warlords like Massood and Islamist elements.

Both the US govt and Pakistan govt did the right thing in the period 1979-88.

What was indefensible was Pakistan and USA's creation and support of Taliban (USA's support allegedly at the behest of Unocal and their likes) to rule A'stan by proxy in 1995-2001.

Regards

PS: We cannot abandon our solemn promise to the Pushtun tribes just so that romair mian can have a good time in Canada without having to hide his Pakistani origin.

#57 Posted by majumdar
"you cannot achieve the second without doing the first. To destroy the jihadis you have to enter FATA and keep it occupied for some period of time"

I guess you are not paying attention. FATA is still part of Pakistan and the Pak army can legitimately be there and it will not be an occupation. when the army is fighting the foreigners or the foreigner supported elements, all its actions in FATA are legit.

Try and understand this analogy. The Indian army can operate in Kashmir w/o calling it an occupation because it has a legit agreement with the Kashmir state. Similarly, the Pak army can operate in FATA. That cannot or should not be called an occupation.(this analogy is not meant to bring Kashmir in to this issue)

The first job of any civilian government in Pakistan would be to order the army in the tribal areas, if the tribes don't stop supporting the taliban and jihadis.

That is what Benazir agreed with the US and that is what the next civilian PM of Pakistan would do!

I am afraid Bulleya is way off the mark.

HP is right.

Re: # 54

The creation of the "jehadists" (now called the taliban) in Afghan refugee camps was sanctified by a curious alliance of some southern democrats and liberals in cahoots with some far right wingers... all together to defend capitalism.

In Pakistan they found willing allies in Ahmad Shah masood and Hikmatyar (ironically brought in by the late Zulfikar Ali Bhutto to organize an insurgency against the Daud regime) along General Zia.

Ultimately they put up upto half a billion Dollars in weapons aid to these guys ... which was matched by another half a billion by the Saudis.

So just blaming the khakis for an international capitalist consortium is just off.