Taliban, Pashtoons and Pakistan

majumdar #: "You neither want to assimilate them nor do you want them to secede. So what do you want them to?"

...yes this is the problem that all policies and people have who want others to be a part of their country......if fata wants to separate, why should pakistan hold onto it...why create a perpetual state of war......what in the world is pakistan getting out of it.....

....on the other hand, if they want to declare a war, on their own, against nato in another country, then why does it become pakistan's responsibility to support them.....at the cost of pakistan itself......

is pakistan being seen as the most dangerous country in the world, becasue pakistan is dangerous, or because fata is dangerous?.......obviously the later......

fata cannot have it both ways.......either they should follow pakistan's policies and not declare war in other countries......or they should be off on their own......

trust me, fata will not separate from pakistan......they know where their financial bread is buttered.......so instead of bombing the place, why not just tell them that they are free to decide their own foreign policy, however they will not be under pakistan's financial or security umbrella.......

(i remember reading somewhere that the local govt. of small town on the border of mexico and and texas declared that us immigration would not be allowed to prosecute illegal aliens within the town.....the town had a majority mexican-american population......if i remember corrently the state govt. simply said, fine but you don't get us funds, then.....i.e you are back to being mexico.......which is the country that the mexicans had left to come to america, into this town)......

fata cannot have it both ways.....either it should get pakistani funds and security and follow pakistani laws and foreign policy......or if it wants its own laws and foreign policy, then it should generate its own funds......

#54 Posted by harish_hyd
Well Taliban were not there when the Afghan war was on. They were still studying in the Madrassah!

Actually blaming the Pak army is not entirely correct either. The Pak army was training the MUJ in 1977-78-79 in the settled areas. However, as the number of refugees from Afgan increased, the jihadi fervor in the tribes increased too. In 1979, even the US help was declined by calling that peanuts. The CIA involvement had begun in the July 0f 1979 after the Secret memo from Brzezinski. The US aid picked up steam in 1981 after Reagan took over and the CIA director Casey made the case for a full support of the Pakistan army and the ISI in the afghan war.

It was then the pak army and the CIA opened training centers in the tribal areas.

So some of the blame does go the tribe and they are not entirely innocent. They wanted help from the CIA, the US and ISI and the pak army to bring the kabul government down and the tribes provided the man power. In the initial years of the war, most of the warriors were recruited from the tribal areas. After the number of Afghan refugees increased, the ISI and CIA had the abundant supply of human as the war fodder!

HP sain,

(I want to maintain the status quo. But the militancy and Jihadis need to be eliminated!)

That is precisely the whole point, you cannot achieve the second without doing the first. To destroy the jihadis you have to enter FATA and keep it occupied for some period of time which is what Pak Army is not permitted to do under the agreement with tribals.

I tend to agree with Romair's POV- if the FATA guys want to wreak havoc let Pakistan not enter FATA militarily but turn a blind eye to NATO if it bombs FATA back to the stone ages. And then the tribals shud not come crying to GOP.

Regards

Majumdar,

I didn't know you had embraced George W. Bush as your guru.

In other words, Iraq is free today because it can elect people to its parliament but was unfree under Saddam Hussain because the latter was a brutal authoritarian dictator. Legally constitutionally and morally, even if Kashmir did have elected representatives as you say (a disputed contention) ... a political government does not necessarily make Kashmiris free people.

Representative government is no doubt the best form of government for a free people. However representative government is no substitute for independence for a people in chains.

This article is not about Kashmir. The principle however is the same for the people of FATA as well. Giving them representation, "civilizing them" etc is not a good excuse to take them over.

The desire of one man to keep another within his empire, forcefully, has, historically, been a large cause of violence.......i am always amazed by individuals who have never even visited a place, wanting that place to be a part of their country........

.......there is no way pakistan can, forcefully, keep fata within its adminstration......it has never been done and won't be possible now.......much like india has not been able to keep kashmir quiet for 60 years.....

....the one advantage pakistan had in fata was that the fata citizens weren't anti-pakistan....they went on with their lives, and knew where their bread was buttered.....i.e, where in the world would they go if they became totally independent (unlike kashmiris, who knew they could join pakistan - something which would not bring down their economic standards).......

however, now the dynamics have totally changed in fata.......they are the support system for the taliban's resistence in afghanistan, and allegedly, a central base for al-qaeda.......this scares the hell out of the rest of the world......

and this portrays pakistan as the most dangerouse place in the world.......anyone who has been to pakistan will know that lahore, islamabad, larkana, karachi etc. aren't the most dangerous places in the world......however fata certainly is......and due to fata, the rest of the country is turning into the most dangerous place in the world......

......before people get over-excited by the ability of afghans to fight, they should realize that there is nothing a person with a gun can do against a missile......

taliban can defeat nato if nato is trying to occupy territory.......however, they cannot do much if nato wants to destroy territory from 10,000 feet......

so, if tomorrow nato decided to bomb the living daylights out of fata, what could fata do......what could pakistan do.......will it go into a war with the usa?......

so pakistan is between a rock and a hard place......if it doesn't invade fata, usa will bomb it, and isolate pakistan.....if it does attack fata, the attack will fail and taliban and al-qaeda will start carrying out terrorist campaigns in lahore and islamabad.....

should pakistan get into a war with the rest of the world, just because people in fata want to fight a war against nato, against the direction of state of pakistan.....obviously not.......

should pakistan invade fata, just because usa wants to fight its gwot, and in the process destroy lahore and karachi and pindi......obvioulsy not......

so what should it do?

it should support neither fata, nor usa.....it should tell fata that they cannot fight their own war in afghanistan if the state of pakistan has not authorised it.......and if they still want to do it, then they are on their own......they should not come to pakistan for assistance, if nato bombs them.......

this is the equivalent of letting fata go its own way.......

as for fata fighting for kashmir......that happened 60 years ago.....its about time, pakistanis started living in the present-day world......and started understanding present-day dynamics.......bengalis fought more for pakistan than anyone else......now they are a separate country......times change and dynamics change.......

#51 by majumdar

Pak Army did not step in of their own volition. They were bullied by the US into doing so.

Majumdar bhai, the whole thing started with the Paki army's creation of the Taliban. So in a sense, more than US bullying, it is the Paki army that is responsible for the mess the tribal areas are today. No Taliban, no Al Qaeda, no Jihad, no US pressure. As simple as that.

#49 Posted by majumdar
"You neither want to assimilate them nor do you want them to secede. So what do you want them to?"

Dada, very simple! I want to maintain the status quo. Things should remain where they are. But the militancy and Jihadis need to be eliminated!

#38 Posted by adamkhan

“The difference is because of the huge amount of money pumped in this region to brain wash our masses, if there were that many madrassahs in punjab or sindh, i assure you things would have been a lot more different down south as well.�

That is correct but the investment is only made in areas that welcome it. Madrassah are part of the Pushtoon tradition. There were always more Madrassah in NWFP and FATA then in Punjab, Sindh or Balochistan. The Pushtoon fought the afghan war on religious lines and it was natural for the investors (whoever they might be) to create more of the Jihadi. Madrassah were the natural academy to develop poorly educated youth in to Jihadi warriors. No one in NWFP spoke against the extension of the Madrassah and now we see the results.

I have great regard for the Pushtoon in the settled areas and I am afraid they are victims of the war in Afghanistan too. The society in NWFP, as you mentioned, has change and the changes have consequences. Good changes help bring economic prosperity and bad changes ruin the nations. History is replete with the stories about some nations that made good and some others that disappeared from the face of the earth. The Pushtoon nation is in a major quandary. You can blame the Pak army or the ambitious general or the international politics, but the Pushtoons will pay the price for their adventure. It is a tragedy. However, you perhaps can still retrieve something but the path of supporting the Taliban would only lead to destruction!

Harishbhai,

Re: #50

Pak Army did not step in of their own volition. They were bullied by the US into doing so. So to go back to pre-2001 is either of the three:

US gets out of A'stan.
The tribals stop their jihad.
US stops bullying Pak Army into taking action in W'stan.

Regards

#49 by majumdar

You neither want to assimilate them nor do you want them to secede. So what do you want them to?

I would assume HP sahib wants the pre-2001 arrangement back, when the tribal areas were autonomous with only minimal interference from Pakistan. That arrangement had worked well for almost a century and would have continued to do so had the Paki army not stepped in.

HP sain,

Re: #32

(There really is no need to assimilate FATA into the Pakistan.)

&

(They should never be given an option to renounce their Pakistani citizenship or given an opportunity to breakaway from Pakistan.)

You neither want to assimilate them nor do you want them to secede. So what do you want them to?

Regards

#38 Posted by adamkhan

“If the taliban's power wanes then how is that a reaffirmation of shariah? OR why would the maliks be resisting if shariah allows them to keep their current power structure!?�

Khan sahib.
You are commenting on two different statements in two different paras. In the first para I mentioned that Taliban might have hurt the political clout and the next para read as,� One more thing the shariah does not remove mehsud, wazir, mohmand from peoples’ minds overnight. In fact, shariah does no such thing. Shariah is reaffirmation and the reestablishment of the tribal system. It is not contrary to the tribal system.�

And both statements are correct! Taliban cannot end the tribal system because by implementing shariah they are actually reaffirming the tribal system so all the stories about Taliban ending the Tribal system are bogus! I hope you can see the differences in two statements and then their correlation. As the Taliban power recedes, the Shariah too would go away but the tribal system will stay!

� The difference between shariah and the tribal system is that shariah erodes all ethnic identities. From a tribe you go on to become part of a bigger brotherhood.�

Khan Sahib this is just hogwash and people are blinded by the fairytale. The communists and socialist also made claims of the equality of human. There is nothing on this earth at least in the foreseeable future that could erode all the ethnic identities. Even during the so called Islamic era, the ethnic identities were solidified and not eroded!

As long as the current social structure exists in FATA, tribal identities will remain. The changes to the social system come via the economic changes and migration of people for economic activities. You put factories in FATA, industrialize FATA, people from the warring tribes would cease fighting and get involved in some legitimate economic activity and they will forget the tribal differences and work in the factories together.

Since no one is going to put any money for factories down in FATA, for another century or so, the area will remain the way it is now. Shariah will actually further divide the people over petty religious differences and the mosques will become center of cultural and political skirmishes between the tribes.

The Taliban and the people who support them are driving people to the inhuman activities and their actions will impact the whole Pushtoon nation and yes, at that time you should really be ready to hear the noises about the subhuman activities of the tribes. These activities will extend to the settled areas, if the FATA is allowed to merge with the settled areas.

Truth is not easy to absorb when you first hear it. If necessary changes are not made in the tribal areas, the sounds of subhuman will only increase in intensity.

If people like you support the Shariah and the further isolation of the tribes along the religious lines then I am afraid the worst elements of the tribal society will control the people and every thing that I wrote in my post #32 will happen.

Lastly, The Taliban or the tribes have no chance in the world to win this war. They will lose because they are fighting against the history, they are fighting against the progress and they are fighting for the medieval social values.

One more thing, only the western educated people have the ability to run the modern states. When barely educated try to run the country, they end up giving their independence and their resources to others fairly quickly. The Taliban could not run Afghanistan. The Pakistani Taliban and the Madrassah educated maulvi and their fellow traveler Jihadi will not be able to run the Tribal areas too.

#46 Posted by majumdar

Yasser/Majumdar bhai,

The Kashmiris are already a free people, they have the right to elect their own state govt and the national govt.

And the fact is that candidates standing in the local elections in "Azad" Kashmir are actually required to sign an undertaking promising their full support to the accession of AJK to Pakistan. Many local politicians, prominent among them Amanullah Khan one of the founders of the JKLF were not allowed to contest because they refused to sign this undertaking.

How does one reconcile this fact with Pakistan's demand that Kashmiris be given the right to self-determination?

Manto mian,

(The question was never of Pakistani expansionism but of Soviet and Indian designs. Pushtuns saved the world from Soviet expansionism.)

Soviet expansionism died in 1990. So what was Pakistan doing creating the Talibs in 1995 under BB's govt?

(In Kashmir, the freedom fighters are fighting a bellum justum.)

The Kashmiris are already a free people, they have the right to elect their own state govt and the national govt. In any case, there is no point in Pakistan fighting for Kashmiris right to self-determination unless it gives the same to its own people.

Regards

Tribal people are much more honorable, civilized, passionate and democratic than hypocrites...

Hypocrites must leave them alone...

They are also better off than most of the lost stinky alcoholics of this board...

If we respect ourselves...then we have to respect tribal people as well ...and if we respect our human rights and freedom..then we have to respect their choices as well...

So no need to make them "civilized" ...

majumdar,

I have interacted with a lot of people from the tribal areas and they are not taliban. Conservative yes but not taliban. Nothing is black and white. Operation Curzon was a masterstroke of diplomacy the like of which Pakistan has not seen since. Unfortunately the advantages were squandered by us through this invasion.

The question was never of Pakistani expansionism but of Soviet and Indian designs. Pushtuns saved the world from Soviet expansionism. In Kashmir, the freedom fighters are fighting a bellum justum.