Taliban, Pashtoons and Pakistan

Pew,

Yes, you're right. Zeemax is seriously delusional and needs professional help; a straight-jacket at least!

Re: # 151 Fuzair

Give up on Zeemax! He is incorrigible. At one point he was caught claiming that the US attack on Afghanistan was never sanctioned by the UN, notwithstanding the fact that the UN Charter itself recognizes the right of member nations to defend themselves if they are a victim of an attack.

FCRA supercedes the Constitution?

In any case there is nothing about consulting with a jirga in Clause 1 and 2 so, ipso facto, the President can bomb FATA to his heart's content.

I suggest you consult a constitutional law expert to explain to you why, since it is the second para of clause 6, consulting the jirga does not apply to clauses 1 -5.

fuzair,

Clauses 1-6 of Article 247 relate to Executive power, while 7 relates to Judicial power. Now go and fetch the FCRA and lemme tell you more.

So why did you lie and quote selectively? Answer that first.

So why did you lie and quote selectively? Answer that first.

fuzair,

Not only are you an idiot, you're an uneducated moron. Now go and fetch the Frontier Crimes Regulations Act and I will tell you the interpretation of this clause.

BTW, it is clear that the consult the jirga crap applies only to Clause 6 since there is a clause 7 right after it.

Zeemax,

Not only are a Jihadi apologist, you are a pathetic liar incapable of understanding simple English. Here is the entire clause; the only time the President has to listen to a bunch of tribal idiots is when he wants to turn the Tribal Areas into settled districts. READ the clause para before the section you selectively quoted.

Entire clause you selectively quoted:

(6) The President may, at any time, by Order, direct that the whole or any part of a Tribal Area shall cease to be Tribal Area, and such Order may contain such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to the President to be necessary and proper:

Provided that before making any Order under this clause, the President shall ascertain, in such manner as he considers appropriate, the views of the people of the Tribal Area concerned, as represented in tribal jirga.

#144 Posted by fuzair,

You didn't produce the entire article, but just the first two sub-clauses. Very convenient.

It basically states that neither parliament nor the judiciary has any jurisdiction over tribal area, though the president has executive authority over the tribal areas through his governors PROVIDED:

...that before making any Order under this clause, the President shall ascertain, in such manner as he considers appropriate, the views of the people of the Tribal Area concerned, as represented in tribal jirga.

Rabid dogs - Indeed, but it's not the tribals. It's your types.

#143 Posted by pavocavalry on February 5, 2008 6:20:06 am


Another idea is to integrate all Pashtuns under one state


sounds like a great idea...pashtun state where the people have the inalenable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of a goat...

Zeemax:

Here is the relevant clause of the Constitution. The President can order the Army into the Tribal Areas and pacify and civilize them at his sole discretion. Its high time that the PA brought the tribals to heel... but maybe the rabid dogs will bite!

247. Administration of Tribal Areas.
(1) Subject to the Constitution, the executive authority of the Federation shall extend to the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, and the executive authority of a Province shall extend to the Provincially Administered Tribal Areas therein.

(2) The President may, from time to time, give such directions to the Governor of a Province relating to the whole or any part of a Tribal Area within the Province as he may deem necessary, and the Governor shall, in the exercise of his functions under this Article, comply with such directions.

There is a school of thought in USA which advocates partition of Afghanistan based on Hindu Kush.In this scenario it has been hypothesised that the ideal route would run via Pakistani Balochistan via Nimroz in Afghanistan which is Baloch majority.This whole process may take a decade or so if it at all happens.

Another idea is to integrate all Pashtuns under one state so that the confusion about from where incursion is taking place is removed.In this case ideally all pashtun areas would be under afghanistan.

#140 Posted by bulleya on February 4, 2008 11:35:45 pm


this in between stage, where pakistan will be bombed by nato if it doesn't bomb fata, and it will be bombed by fata if it does bomb fata, is taking pakistan nowhere...


it's taking you up shit creek without a paddle..(you didn't think you'd need a paddle because of your "geostrategic" location)

#137 Posted by pavocavalry.

Yes ... Agha Shahi (R.I.P). He was the best diplomat Pakistan ever had.

An excerpt from Dawn September 07, 2006:

For example, in Afghanistan, he firmly took the position of “handshake with the Americans, not an embrace�. His position was not completely appreciated by military ruler Ziaul Haq and it became one of the reasons for his exit.

It is said he was also the one who convinced ZAB to play the highly effective China card.

pavo #: "pakistan's western borders would become indefensible"

at some stage in pakistan's existence, it will need to shift its foreign policy from a military and defence centric point of view to an economic centric point of view......

every single point being discussed cannot be looked at solely by analyzing what will become defensible and what will become indefensible.....pakistan needs to get out of this habit of feeling as if it is in a perpetual state of invasion from the east and the west.......

this is what is taught in military institutions...and for good reason...since a solider is to fight.......and thus possible military threats are to be his primary area of education......

however this is also why soldiers should not be deciding or influencing foreign and domestic policy........or financial policy etc.......they will always, genuinely, feel that if they do this or that, such and such border will be under threat and they will be invaded......

pakistan's complete foreign policy was based on the fact that india would invade pakistan......i have seen enough of india and have met enough indians, to say with quite a bit of certainity that india has no intention to invade pakistan......what will they gain by bringing in another 150 million muslims.....specifically those who don't want to join them.....don't they have their hands full in kashmir....

now pakistan's policy is being based on this threat from the wast......tribal areas were never under pakistan's management......and now they are even deciding their own foreign policy......hence they are a lost case......

either one has to have the power to subjugate them, if they form their own foreign policy (which pakistan doesn't have the power to do), or one has to leave them on their own......if they want to fight nato in afghanistan, even though pakistan, as a country doesn't want to do so, then let them fight nato, on their own.....let them generated their own funds and carry out their own security......

........who is going to invade pakistan on its western frontier?........nato?....afghanistan?......fata?.......if they do so, then it should be considered an act of war and should be fought out........

this in between stage, where pakistan will be bombed by nato if it doesn't bomb fata, and it will be bombed by fata if it does bomb fata, is taking pakistan nowhere......

there is a big bad world outside pakistan, where a lot of countries have worked out the best way to run affairs - foreign and domestic.......let's learn from them.......and they shifted, a long time ago, from a military centric to an economic centric foreign policy.......its about time we stopped relying on PMA as our only source of education for running pakistan.......

and lets get out of this military-centric perpetual threat from east, west, north and south mindset, and start figuring out how pakistan can prosper........

Re: # 136 Major Sahib,
How does the partition into Pashtun and non-Pashtun help US?
They seem to be interested in a secure transport corridor from Central Asia all the way to the Arabian Sea. It seems to me that partition will create new enmities that might be detrimental to achieving that objective.

Mr Bulleya

Pakistan has gained far more than the tribals . The tribals are the bastion of pakistan's western defence.If the tribal area goes pakistan's western borders would become indefensible.Durand Line was designed in such a way.

You badly need to brush up your knowledge.

Volume 7 Number 1

January 28, 2008

Major A.H. Amin (Pakistan Army, Retired)

Waziristan

Waziristan is the testing ground, the acid test of Pakistan Army's worth in the so- called war against terrorism.
What is the Pakistani intelligence ? An intelligence operative stated that they don't have the guts to go out of a fort of FC in Waziristan. They meekly step out of a Qila (fort) and stop some truck drivers and ask what's going on. From what they scramble all the guys from Military Intelligence, the ISI , the Corps Intelligence and the FC Intelligence sit down and make a generally similar report. The guy who compares all reports in GHQ jumps with joy when he sees all these reports and states that all reports can be cross checked and are correct. There is the Sab Accha mentality since Mughal times. Sab Accha means All Correct. So in the final summing it is gleefully concluded that the writ of the Pakistani Government is established in all parts of tribal areas! Glory be to Allah.
I recently met some mid-ranking and major-general level army officers and discussed Waziristan with them. We concluded:
Waziristan is a case of clash of interests among ambitious officers trying to get a good chit (report) and serious regimental officers who see soldiering as a way of life. The fast-track guys want to bash up some villages with artillery fire and do some dog catching for Americans and improve their career index called OEI.
The first major disaster was Lt.-Gen. Safdar, a Punjabi and a careerist. He wanted a fast-track approach for the problem, .His policy was bomb everyone, kill everyone and get the feathers in the cap for being a conqueror. This was counter-productive. The armed forces lost all credibility in this area. Safdar was finally packed off to the post of director logistics in the army Headquarters a post seen as waiting area for dumped generals.
Lieutenant General Hamid Khan, a Pashtun armored corps officer from 11 Cavalry was not effective. During his tenure the army was neither here nor there. He was serving for most of the time when the Waziristan accord had been signed.
The present corps commander Masud Aslam was a Kargil Warrior! (Major Amin is not being complimentary.) He again tried to introduce the Safdar policy with disastrous results.
One Major General level divisional commander stood out. Strangely it was a Shia officer, Major General Mir Haider. Although a Punjabi he understood the Pasthun psyche and did well. His modus operandi was psy war. Healing the tribal eg . Gifting copies of Holy Quran.
Another Major General Sahi was a failure. Again he was using the Safdar approach. Kill , batter , destroy and bomb. Sahi had close links with the Quisling PML (President Musharraf's political party: the writer believes Pakistan has sold out to the Americans) as his brother was a politician from that party. In words of a direct participant officer, he was also a total failure. He was finally packed off as commandant of infantry school. Another resting place of dumped generals. In his dining out he said that he had established writ of Pakistani Government in Waziristan and was corrected there and then by a serving army officer that this was a white lie. He was challenged that he could not drive with his GOC's flag from Miran Shah to Bannu even with an escort! He was infamous in the Frontier Corps Officers for trying to prod them to attack this village or that because he wanted to get a good chit from his bosses.
A serving army officer in that area compared Pakistan Army and the FC in Waziristan to a mouse running from point A to point B while he said that the tribals were the lazy cat watching this despicable mouse.
We further concluded:
The great danger is not Pakistan but the fall-out after its demise.
The great danger to the West is not the hopeless Pakistani state but non-state actors
The more Pakistani Don Quixotes are proved to be spineless clowns in Waziristan, the more dangerous the situation becomes.
Warfare has become cheap. It is easy to rock the boat and non-state actors are good at this.
The front is unclear. The distinction between friend and foe unclear.
My assessment is that if the Americans decide to knock out Pakistan , in strategic terms , there will be no resistance in Punjab and Sindh ,only the Pashtuns will be their adversaries and the settled area Pashtuns will be as hopeless as the Punjabis and Sindhis.
Pakistan's military and political establishment is simply hopeless. This theme is discussed in my article "5 minutes over Islamabad" (the article details how the US forced Pakistan to join it's side in the GWOT.) The Pakistani military junta has already lost all credibility with the Pakistani population and cannot control the situation.
Even the Americans will not achieve much if they enter Waziristan. The terrain is bad and Americans will be a good cause for Jihad. The solution is withdrawal from Waziristan and regime change in Pakistan. The Americans should let the hopeless Paki politicians do the dirty job of all this.
As an officer who served in Pakistan Army I would sum up the situation as following:
The Pakistani High Command a Punjabi-Mohajir (Mohajirs are Pakistans who migrated from India to the new country of Pakistan in/after 1947) team lacks the grey matter or resolve to deal with the tribals.
The troops they are commanding have lost faith in the cause they are fighting for. This is the worst thing for an army.
All said and done the tribals can be dealt politically. Any Pakistani officer who is posted as commander 11 Corps is a job seeker. He is trying to be a Napoleon and a Punjabi cannot be a Napoleon with a tribal!
The present Governor of NWFP Owais Ghani has already miserably failed in Baluchistan. He is regarded as a non-Pashtun as he is the hated Hindko Punjabi (we dont know what Hindko means; Hind generally refers to India) speaking from Peshawar city just like General Kakar, whose first cousin he is.
The whole situation requires a change in command in Pakistan from top to bottom.

ANALYSIS







The strategic challenges that the USA confronts are complex and challenging and the present US leadership lacks the strategic talent to find a solution.Just sitting in Afghanistan and Iraq is not the solution.If not a reverse it is certainly not a success for USA and its allies.And every day spent in Iraq and Afghanistan without striking at the real centre of gravity is a strategic failure of USA.







Using the Northern Alliance as main Allies



The USA was seen as friends of Non Pashtuns in 2001.This created an alienation and feeling of betrayal in Pashtuns both in Afghanistan and Pakistan .This fact was admitted even by US scholars.Professor Rasul Amin who is this scribe's personal friend offered a very interesting explanation of this US failure.According to Prof Rasul Amin who was also Afghanistan's first Education Minister the main US advisor who according to US decision makers possessed Solomon's wisdom about Afghanistan,Zalmay Khalilzad was a non Pashtun.Rasul Amin stated in various discussions that Zalmay was a Changharay ( of Hindu/Indian origin) and not a Pashtun.He thus carried a conscious as well as unconscious bias against Pashtuns.This led to his advocating a course in US policy as a result of which US position became very partisan and negative in the eyes of the Pashtun population.



The USA achieved little by this favour ironically.The Northern Alliance's real allies and saviours were the Russians,Indians and Iranians and this remains the present position.To rub salt in the wound today the Northern Alliance propagates that they singlehandedly removed the Taliban understating and under emphasizing the impact of US aerial bombardment on Taliban.Thus although without USA intervention the Taliban would still have been ruling Afghanistan,the USA failed to gained the goodwill that they deserved from the Northern Alliance.The Northern Alliance knows that their permanent allies are Russia,India and Iran while USA is a dangerous ally which can change its policy at any times.Thus US policy laid the foundation of a possible division of Afghanistan into Pashtun and non Pashtun parts.This may take a decade or more but a foundation has been laid.



US strategy is not aimed at pacifying Afghanistan



The force ratio of USA and its major NATO allies is so low that it is not designed to pacify or control whole of Afghanistan.The major US targets its appears were the airbases and those they occupied.These airbases will go a long way in enabling the USA to strike at a multiple number of targets in the region.This has already led to China and Russia becoming better allies and has not served US policy.



Material motivation of various major participants exposed



One good result of the war is the fact that materialistic motivation of many majopr participants has been exposed.When the USSR intervened in Afghanistan in 1979 the then Pakistani military regime adopted a policy of aiding Afghan rebel groups on the slogan of Jihad.Today with more than 20 Christian countries occupying Afghanistan and with Pakistan facing a more grave threat on its Western borders there is no talk of Jihad now.The motivation in 1979 was to get foreign aid and this has remained the motivation in 2001.The same is true for the so called Mujahids of 1979-1989.They fought a Jihad against a non Christian USSR and are now major vassals of more than 20 Christian countries occupying Afghanistan.



Taliban a force to stay on the scene



In pure military as well as political terms the Taliban are a force that will stay on the scene unless there is a major change in US strategy.This would not lead to US withdrawal but it would certainly make Afghanistan's Pashtun and non Pashtun divide deeper.The USA would be the loser as the Northern Alliance regards Russia as a more solid and reliable friend and ally.The Taliban will dominate the south and the drug trade and there dominance would ensure that the Pashtuns remain relatively uneducated.Thus fundamentalism would be strengthened in the Afghan South and the regional threat will remain functional.



Taliban's Ability to acquire SAM capability will be a serious challenge to USA/NATO



Presently the Taliban have no SAM capability but if they acquire this the whole balance in Afghanistan would seriously tilt against the Americans/NATO.Presently the NATO is the master of the land battlefield because of dominance of the skies.This has enabled it to occupy Afghanistan with minimum forces and to economise on the war expenditure.A few SAMs can however change the whole situation.



IED and Suicide Attacks Main Strength of Taliban



The Taliban have mastered the use of IEDs and have a large reservoir of suicide bombers.These are two formidable weapons that they possess against which the USA/NATO has no countermeasure or remedy.







Conclusion



The Afghan battlefield will see few decisive battles and would continue to be a slow war of attrition in which the NATO/ISAF will rarely see the faces of their enemies.Time is on the side of Taliban.The NATO/USA has to decide on a definite strategy unless their aim is just to control the strategic Afghan airfields as jump off points for attacks on other regional countries in the next decade.Pakistan lost the good will it should have had in Afghanistan because its foreign policy was controlled by non Professionals.This failure started from removal of Agha Shahi from the Foreign Office.Shahi was not in favour of doing everything that the Americans told the Pakistanis.He was a seasoned diplomat.After his exit the Foreign Office passed into hands of soldiers turned diplomats with an over ride gear from General Zia and the so called Silent Soldier.

Seen in retrospect Pakistan's Afghan policy was a failure and the threat in 2007 to Pakistan's integrity is far more grave than in 1979.In this scenario the Taliban are a major contender.They have acquired a fearsome reputation not only as warriors in the Pashtun areas but also in the eyes of their NATO opponents.However the talk of engaging them is impractical.The battle that they are fighting is to the bitter end and this fact has to be digested by all decision makers on all sides.The Taliban have succeeded in destabilisng the region and herein lies their nuisance value.

Re: # 133 Zakkk
In what specific way should the Afghan policy be corrected?
Minimally, what Afghanistan wants is part of NWFP east up till Peshawar, plus the entire Baluchistan.

What do you and AK suggest in this regard?

#126 Posted by bulleya on February 4, 2008 1:45:46 am


one cannot have it both ways


That's right..you can't..

Pakistan was created for allah's people to do allah's work..

the fata guys are doing allah's work...

The other side of the argument is the Pakhtun nationalist one which argues that the fighting in FATA are because of the policies of the pak establishment.

Taken from the news on sunday

The present state system does not represent the interests of the people.

By R Khan

Afrasiab Khattak is a noted intellectual and politician. Provincial president of the Awami National Party (ANP), Khattak has been a political activist since his student days. Hailing from the Kohat district in the NWFP, he completed his education from the University of Peshawar. He did his master's in English Literature and also got a degree in Law. For some time he remained a practising lawyer and also made a name for himself as a constitutional expert.

Khattak has been associated with some leading national and international media organisations as a professional political analyst. He has a vast knowledge of the Pakistan-Afghanistan region. Khattak remained in jail as a political prisoner in Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's tenure, while he went into exile for years during the Ziaul Haq era.

After his return to Pakistan, instead of working as a politician, Khattak joined human rights organisations and also served as chairperson of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP). A couple of years ago, Khattak again entered the political arena by joining the ANP. Recently, he became the party's provincial president. The News on Sunday recently got hold of him to discuss various issues confronting the country, especially extremism and terrorism. Excerpts follow:

The News on Sunday: Where do you think would the current crisis lead the country and what different scenarios may emerge?

Afrasiab Khattak: Frankly speaking, the situation is bleak and I do not see much light at the end of the tunnel. The crisis is basically of the state system. The fundamental relationship between the state and the society is through a constitutional structure expressed in a democratic process; that is how the society determines the direction of the state. On its own part, the state administers the society.

Unfortunately, in Pakistan's case, the state has gone totally out of the society's control; it is a rogue state in the sense that it is not accountable. It has not happened overnight; it is the culminating point of the processes that have been there for decades. Zia's era started them and they reached their climax under Musharraf.

This change is qualitative and has turned our people into subjects; they are no more citizens. So the present state system does not represent the interests of the people and it is very difficult to predict where the state would go from here. The most dangerous aspect is that this crisis may get internationalised for obvious reasons.

TNS: Why then has your party termed the forthcoming elections so important?

AK: As political activists our only hope is to mobilise and organise people and prepare them to launch a struggle for their rights. We simply cannot give up, as elections are a very important means of mobilising people and creating awareness in them to get back their rights from the usurpers.

TNS: You think that the crisis is at the level of the state. Is it then appropriate to term the current unrest as a consequence of extremism and Talibanisation?

AK: I think some people simplify this by using such terms. Talibanisation is just one aspect and a manifestation of the deep malaise. 10 or 15 years ago people used to say that the military is a state within state. It is not true anymore; today the military is the state while the other state institutions are mere appendages. The military is performing every function that a state performs in the rest of the world.

The upper echelons of the military constitute the super elite, even socially apart from monopolising political power. For instance, in any society resource allocation is done by the super elite. In Pakistan, the military heads call the shots; they formulate foreign policy and internal policy; and they even manage civilian affairs. Military operations are taking place in many parts of the country. Considering this, an question arises that who decides about these matters?

This means that the state and the society have been militarised. In such a society, the growth of militancy is something natural. So far no one has resorted to self-criticism. Look at the Western countries, which during the war against the Soviet Union helped promote extremist elements by investing billions of dollars. They established thousands of schools for Afghan refugees in Pakistan and Nebraska University prepared the syllabus. Similarly, the whole education system was changed here. But neither the international players nor the local elite admitted their mistakes. Everybody is talking about Talibanisation, but no one about the root causes.

TNS: Of late we have heard about the formation of Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), and the military operations in South Waziristan and Darra Adamkhel. Where are we heading for as a nation?

AK: First of all, the problem is that there are elements within the establishment who patronised militancy. Second, the misguided policies of Musharraf have brought international war into our country. Our ruling elite is very fond of becoming the frontline state and it is like an addiction.

Unfortunately our province -- the NWFP -- happens to be the frontline province. But let us not forget that the extremist elements cannot reconcile themselves to the modern state system. They are basically anti-modern, anti-democracy. Their success starts from where the state fails. In Afghanistan they could introduce their system only when that country becomes a failing state. This is something which they would like to repeat in Pakistan too. So unless Pakistan establishes a democratic dispensation, regulated by the constitution, we really cannot address this issue by fire fighting alone. The situation would, as a result, go on worsening.

TNS: Should we infer then that apprehensions that extremists could take over the system of the country are not all that far-fetched?

AK: The way the things have developed over the last three or four years suggest the country is moving towards chaos. We have seen the failure of the state system everywhere in the country. The unit of the state has disappeared and the vacuum is being filled by the radical elements.

TNS: How should the society respond to this challenge?

AK: The problem is that violence is spreading, armed groups are trying to enforce their ideas by force, but the government is without any long- or short-term strategy to counter this. Political and civil society forces depend upon popular support. But when there is brute violence, it paralyses the civil society activists. Expansion of violence leads to contraction of civil society activities.

TNS: Do you think that the ANP's policy of non-violence, fathered by the late Ghaffar Khan, is still relevant?

AK: It is very much relevant. We have seen increase in violence by both state and non-state actors, but it has not solved any problem. Ultimately, we have to resort to non-violence and the state has to achieve legitimacy by constitutional means -- by the reinvention of relationship between the state and the society. No amount of force and violence can provide legitimacy to the state. Pakistan today is at a very dangerous stage. Any intensification of delegitimisation can have dangerous consequences.

TNS: So are you suggesting a new social contract?

AK: Yes, of course. We are living in a century in which globalisation has become a ground reality. So the state system has to adjust itself to the new realities. Of course, it has to be based on the will of the people. Today's problems -- of war and peace, of human rights -- cannot remain internal problems. They have a tendency to get regionalised and internationalised.

In our case, there are other factors too that would attract international interest and concern. So we have to be extremely careful.

TNS: If the ANP comes to power in the NWFP, would it be able to counter extremism in the province?

AK: We have to work with other democratic forces because these are challenges that cannot be met by one party or only by the government. It has to be a collective effort. Our party would try to introduce the federal democratic structure in the country. This could only be done through empowering the people, turning them into real citizens with rights and duties, and by devising a system in which individuals as well as communities are empowered.

The ANP has done a lot of homework for democratic transformation through social change and economic development in the NWFP and FATA. The latter's main problem is economic and political isolation. We believe the tribal areas have to be reintegrated with the rest of the country. We could make the task of the government easier. Unfortunately, elements in our establishment who are fond of becoming front line state would like to use FATA as a battleground in the so-called new Great Game. The ANP is strongly opposed to such misadventures.

TNS: You have mentioned internationalisation of our problems. Therefore, is it logical to assume that India has a hand in the crisis in FATA?

AK: Our government has been claiming so, though it has not come up with any evidence. The policies pursued by our various governments have led to the souring of relations with neighbouring countries. We share border with four countries and it is interesting that all of them have some complaints from us. As the proverb goes, there is no smoke without fire. So we have to take a critical view of our policies. Yes, other countries would pursue their own agendas and at times their interests would be against ours. But if we adopt rational policies, we will be able to neutralise many hostile policies of other countries.

TNS: If the civil unrest in Pakistan transforms into a civil war, will its magnitude be bigger than Iraq?

AK: We are living in a very difficult time, when a large quantity of sophisticated weapons is in private possession. God forbid, if civil war, regional war or regional conflict breaks out, problems in the former Yugoslavia will appear smaller in comparison.

TNS: Is there a possibility that the violence and extremism, which have gripped the NWFP, could spread across the Indus?

AK: It is again an oversimplification to talk about extremism in the NWFP, as even now the roots are across the Indus. The physical manifestation is on this side. I have said time and again that the problem does not lie in Waziristan; it lies in Islamabad. Unless a change of heart takes place there, the issue could not be addressed. The Pakhtoons are unfortunately wrongly projected as extremists. They are victims of violence, not its perpetrators. They have always been at the receiving end of the violent policies imposed upon them from Islamabad.

TNS: What is ANP's position on US conducting operations in FATA?

AK: We are opposed to military operations by any power in FATA; we are even against operations by the Pakistan Army. The basic problem is political. Administrative and security action can be justified, but only in very limited and surgical fashion. According to our perception, situation in FATA is the outcome of our flawed Afghan Policy. As long as this policy is not corrected, there cannot be peace in the entire region.

Please read as follows:

...I never fought and grabbed Muzaffarabad for Pakistan in 1948. The ONLY war Pakistan has ever won!

#126 Posted by bulleya,

.thus, you can only makes such a statement about yourself.......i,e. fata residents are better pakistanis than you.....

I stand corrected. They're better Pakistanis than me. I never fought and grabbed Muzaffarabad for Pakistan in 1948.

..what exactly are they protecting the eastern border from?......is afghanistan going to invade pakistan?

When exactly was Afghanistan, Pakistan's friend? It was always hostile towards Pakistan except for the brief reign of Taliban. If you're saying a country should not place forces on a border with a hostile neighbor, no matter how weak militarily, that would be quite negligent.

.......however, how can one part of a country have its own foreign policy..what if tomorrow lahore decides to attack amritsar, and then gets bombed by india........should pakistan, then, declare war on india?

What foreign policy are we talking about? Participation in WOT?

The foreign policy should be the same, but doesn't have to be in case of FATA. Pakistan was wrong, they were right all along, which is why they're now fighting the Pakistani state - but not to separate, merely to change the foreign policy. Of-course you would be aware there's hardly any support at all for Pakistan's general involvement in WOT anywhere in the country (though not specifically for Taliban) while in FATA there's 100% support for Taliban. Seeing this, shouldn't Pakistan change it's misguided and unpopular foreign policy in line with people's wishes rather than plug on in a useless fight?

And BTW, they neither need nor expect Pakistan to declare war on anyone if they're bombed. Right now, both Nato and Pakistan are bombing them simultaneously and they have declared war on both on their own.

There're 600,000 refugees from Waziristan in settled areas of NWFP with not even a peep from the Pakistani Government to even give them dried milk for their children.

There are over one million men in arms in FATA, and you'll see they will not forget this. They never forget. That's something about tribals.

....can you point me to any agreement that indicates that fata could declare its own foreign policy and declare war on another country and pakistan would still be liable to defend it.......

Sure. Read the clauses relating to FATA in the Constitution of Pakistan and the Frontier Crimes Regulations Act, and see where Pakistan's writ begins and ends in FATA.

Regards

600 suicide bombers waiting to strike in Karachi: Report
4 Feb 2008, 1157 hrs IST,PTI


KARACHI: As many as 600 suicide bombers are present in the Pakistani port city of Karachi where they are planning to carry out a major attack, arrested militants of an al-Qaeda linked banned outfit have told the police.

"Around 600 Jundullah militants are present in Karachi. They are mentally prepared and trained to commit suicide attacks," Qasim Toori and Danish alias Talha, arrested on January 29, were quoted as saying by a source privy to the interrogation.

Most of the suicide bombers were former students of Islamabad's Lal Masjid which was stormed by the military last July to flush out extremists, the source told the Daily Times.

The militants confessed that they had robbed foreign banks and dispatched the money to their headquarters in Wana, from where their needs for weapons, explosives and other necessities were being met.

The source added that law-enforcement personnel had also taken into custody two disabled brothers, Abu Abdullah and Gohar Muhammad, who, authorities suspect, were going to carry out suicide attacks.

The militants "confessed" that they were planning to target several key leaders of Altaf Hussein-led MQM and some high-profile government officials before the Feb 18 general elections, the Nation daily reported.

Sources told paper that the militants wanted to target top leadership of MQM and its workers as the party had supported the military crackdown on Lal Masjid.

Toori was wanted in connection with a June 2004 gun attack on Karachi Corps Commander General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, which killed 11 people dead. Hayat survived the attack, for which 11 Jundullah activists were later sentenced to death.

Re: # 99

". As long as we put religion in the preamble of our constitution the parameters of debate within this country would be determined by the mullah."

De-Islamize Pakistani constitution before it is late. Turn it into a Secular state like India.
Mullahs would be reduced to political non-entity then!!

Author,

I write with pain that we are going to lose much more area to Talibans.

Fair assessment. Soon as someone (i.e. a proxy master) provides them with surface to air capability, things will change dramatically. Pavo could provide an insight into which actor in this imbroglio could do that.

Just a small correction. It is 'Taliban' and not 'Talibans'. You may use 'Talibs' for plural but Taliban is already a plural. Talibans makes it double plural!

Regards

correction #: "...what exactly are they protecting the eastern border from?..."

eastern should read western...

zeemax #: "Bulleya, you're right that they won't separate, because they are better Pakistanis than you or me...."

it is not possible to quantify whether residents from one part are better or worse pakistanis than anyone else.......thus, you can only makes such a statement about yourself.......i,e. fata residents are better pakistanis than you.....

"as well as their Federal Grants have always been in return for their protecting the Western borders freeing the Pakistan military for the Eastern borders with India...."

...what exactly are they protecting the eastern border from?......is afghanistan going to invade pakistan?

if someone wants to excercise their own foreign policy, outside that of pakistan, then that group should either be controlled, and if that is not possible then it should be let go......

what fata is expecting is support from pakistan, financially, and militarily, while still keeping the independence of excercising its own domestic policy and foreign policy......uptil now, it was only domestic policy, which was acceptable.......however, how can one part of a country have its own foreign policy......

what if tomorrow lahore decides to attack amritsar, and then gets bombed by india........should pakistan, then, declare war on india?

one cannot have it both ways......one has to either be a part of a country or not be a part of a country....

....can you point me to any agreement that indicates that fata could declare its own foreign policy and declare war on another country and pakistan would still be liable to defend it.......

Dear Friends,
I have been constantly seeing a lot of anti-Paki/Anti-Indian/Anti-Hindu rantings since I joined this forum. I think given the present situation, we need to move away from this "siege mentality" or these tirades based on "Two nation theory".....

Regards

t Khan
Sydney

Bulleya (fauji lover) writes:

"as for fata fighting for kashmir......that happened 60 years ago.....its about time, pakistanis started living in the present-day world......and started understanding present-day dynamics.......bengalis fought more for pakistan than anyone else......now they are a separate country......times change and dynamics change......."

Pakistan has always lost territory under Fauji rule. Never under civilian rule. Ayub lost the hills around Kargil, Yahya lost East Pakistan, Zia lost Siachen and now we hear former defenders of the borders declare they should just as well lose FATA.

Once you were a fervent supporter of Musharaf saying he was the best choice compared to BB or NS. But instead of apologizing for supporting a regime that was hurriedly bringing Pakistan to the current day predicament, you do the one thing that Pak Fauj (particularly under Musharaf) has done well at - cut and run.

Your 'best of the lot' Musharaf has wrecked this country and continues to do so. Yeah, times change and dynamics change. But failure-prone Fauji mentality don't budge an inch!

Re: # 121

and then you woke up.... you were still in the cab line, other pakis were honking like mad, saying bad things about your mom and sister... you were just dreaming...

yep, that's what paki dreams are made of - boarding a plane uncaged... ain't going to happen dude anytime soon... drive the cab, dude :)

This pig was baaaad. But guess most hindoos are like that. Uncouth bastar** who think by buying a damn airline ticket they've bought the airline ... sheesh ... the airline probably spends more trying to kill the smell after these smelly idiots have disembarked.

But to tell the truth, this s.o.b besides the odor, was a real uncouth son of a b***. He was trying to stuff some junk in a sack kind of thing in the overhead rack and I waited for him to finish and the ass**** just took his sweet time. So I ran out of patience and kicked his leg blocking the passage and told him you c*** this plane has other passengers. He just tried to mouth some obscenities but when saw the look on my face, pissed in his pants and backed off. The little smelly mouse. Then I took out his junk which wouldn't fit and gave it to the crew to put it in the hold.

These effing smelly animals which are hindoos.

They even gave third degree to this Edhi dude, the bigshot social worker - even though he does have a permit to travel "free" of a cage... the only paki to have earned benefit...

These days the standing instructions for airlines is : "No dogs and pakis allowed"... unless they are in a cage, locked and gagged...

the other day they caught some paki minister's sons in London airport,roaming free - god knows how they managed to get in... brits gave them the third degree and sent them back home to pakiland in a cargo ship with another bunch of talibaboons they also have caught in the meantime....

So don't do this... you will not be so lucky next time.... there is no need to take that kind of risk... just drive your cab and be happy...

#117 Posted by mohar11,

Even the poor stewardess was trying to pretend wiping her nose with a tissue while serving this hindoo the meal tray when actually trying to shield the frikking odor .. oh that nasty pungent odor emanating from that animal, away.

Re: # 116

How did you sneak in a plane? I thought They have already banned all pakis from flying anywhere in any airline... only mode mechanized transportation that's allowed for you paki primitives is cabs... and that's only because you drive it... :)

#115 Posted by rf786,

Yaar when the company sends me it's in Club Class. This was a private visit. But next time I will spend double for Club Class because there're no hindus there. The cheap buggers. Anything to keep these smelly vermin away!

Zeemax

Next time don't b cheap, spend some money n fly business class if not first.

I was flying back yesterday on a long-haul and there was a hindu sitting next to me. He smelt so bad that I had to fight with the crew to change my seat. Surely we must have not evolved from the same species of monkeys. Hindus seem to have evolved from a really smelly species of apes.

Re: # 30 Field Marshall Bulleya 'Romair'

"...so defeating pakistan shouldn't be too hard....."

That is quite an ignominous climb-down from the heady days of 'Kashmir banega Pakistan' when you were very confident that the Pak military could 'take out the militants any time'!

Arjun, add that to his earlier comment regarding 'Americans will wear T-shirts with Paki flags'!

#111 Posted by Eklavya,

Thanks. I was searching for greener pastures where the only bombs are at the box-office, and fairies roam the meadows :)

Zee, where have you been? Good to see you back.

#104 Posted by Eklavya,

LoL ... Muslims are Martians, and Taliban are the best Muslims so they must be the best Martians ... !

#31 Posted by bulleya,

i doubt fata would, itself, ever want independence from pakistan.......where would they get thier electricity from, and their smuggled cars, and their budget?

Bulleya, you're right that they won't separate, because they are better Pakistanis than you or me. But you're wrong about the rest of the above. There's no customs duty in FATA and they can get any damn cars they like from anywhere, and their electricity (which is free BTW which you didn't mention) as well as their Federal Grants have always been in return for their protecting the Western borders freeing the Pakistan military for the Eastern borders with India, plus dams built in their territory including the on going Gomal Zam Dam project.

Please stand corrected and do not knock the FATA Tribes unnecessarily. Thanks.

#29 Posted by adamkhan,

Excellent post Adam Khana, Zama Rora!

#99 Posted by adamkhan
"The most important factor in that is the sincerity of the Pakitan army. In that recent incident where those 30 brave FC jawans held the sararogha fort for six hours in the face of an onslaught led by baitullah mehsud himself, no support was provided, to me this casts serious doubts on the sincerity of the GHQ in dealing with this menace. "

I apologize if I did not read your posts correctly.
The Pak army does not have the political capital to go in those areas on its own. All those that are fighting there are either former or the current army intelligence assets.

They way they are fighting in FATA is suspicious. The taliban attacks and the army response both have some strangeness to it.

To me it appears to be a set up for something bigger in that area. Watch out and pay close attention to the pattern emerging there!

#105 Posted by Zakkk on February 2, 2008 7:54:01 am


Re: # 103 Drug trade and smuggling thanks to US policies in afghanistan.


yeah....how dare the US attack the people who attacked the wtc and the people who shelter the attackers..

bad usa..bad bad...no donut..

Re: # 103 Drug trade and smuggling thanks to US policies in afghanistan.

..at the 'risk' of Talibanization..

So what? Talibanis are not Martians.

Re: # 102

so who is financing these people, talibaboons?... saudis?... you pakis better wake up and take action now, before it's too late...

Adamkhan: Very true, Aftab Sherpao has already admtted to that in his recent interview

Sherpao says policy on Taliban failing
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C01%5C28%5Cstory_28 -1-2008_pg1_7
* Claims NWFP at risk of total Talibanisation

By Khalid Hasan

LAHORE: Former interior minister Aftab Ahmed Khan Sherpao told the New York Times in an interview published on Sunday that the rapid rise of the Taliban is to be attributed to the failure to take “swift and decisive action� against them. Sherpao said, “The police are scared. They don’t want to get involved.� The Frontier Corps was “too stressed�, he added, and while the Pakistan Army has forces in the Tribal Areas where the militants have built their sanctuaries, the soldiers have remained in their headquarters.

Total Talibanisation: He warned that there is a risk of “total Talibanisation� of the NWFP.

He said the Taliban were well-financed, skilled at propaganda and paying political opponents to stay away from elections. “Unless you involve the political parties, civil society, [and] religious leaders, this is not going to make any headway.�

“We have taken note of various imaginary scenarios being propounded by those who do not wish Pakistan well. Such elements have never reconciled to a nuclear Pakistan,� he said, a probable reference to reports about the possibility of Pakistan’s “loose nukes� falling into extremist hands and the rumoured U.S. plans to secure the country’s nuclear assets.

He said Pakistan was capable of thwarting all threats to its sovereignty and nuclear capability, and asked the officers and men entrusted with these weapons to continue training in order to maintain professional excellence.

///////////

The above is from dawn of today and is a clear statement that the US forces will in afghanistan will be nuked if there is an attack on pakistan. Finally may be the time has come to get rid of the islamic bomb.

Woo hoo...pureland beat out iraq and afghanistan!!

Travel Picks: The world's top 10 dangerous destinations

NEW YORK, Jan 25 (Reuters Life!) - People are opting for more unforgettable holidays but some countries can be risky even for the most adventurous travelers.

Forbes.com has compiled a list of the most dangerous destinations. The list is not endorsed by Reuters.

1. Somalia

This Horn of Africa country has been in the grip of warlords for the last decade, fighting for control of drug and weapon trafficking rights. Risks include military clashes, kidnapping, landmines and pirates.

2. Iraq

Military action, collateral damage, insurgency and suicide bombings are daily occurrences in the country. Security experts say unstable areas include Baghdad and stretch from Tikrit in the north to Hillah in the south and from Mandali in the east to Ramadi in the west.

3. Afghanistan

Even though the ruling Taliban regime was officially ousted in Afghanistan in 2001, attacks from those still loyal to it and to al Qaeda continue. Military personnel and civilians are killed by improvised explosive devices daily.

4. Haiti

Sharing the Caribbean island of Hispaniola with top vacation destination Dominican Republic, Haiti, the western hemisphere's poorest country, is plagued by civil unrest, police corruption and readily available firearms.

5. Pakistan

The country, which borders Afghanistan, suffers from ongoing geopolitical turmoil. Bomb attacks and rioting between Shia and Sunni Muslim communities are a threat. In December 2007, opposition leader Benazir Bhutto was assassinated during a suicide bombing after months of strife over delayed elections.

6. Sudan

Despite a peace agreement in 2005, areas of extreme danger due to battles between government troops and militias and local insurgent groups dot the country. Areas to avoid completely include the western region of Darfur, Ethiopian and Eritrean border regions and all of southern Sudan.

7. Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC)

A civil war that formally ended in 2003 still affects the country. As Rwandan and Ugandan troops pulled out of DRC towards the end of the war, rival militias have been fighting each other to fill the power vacuum this created. Crime is rampant in major cities and security conditions can fluctuate drastically even within minor distances.

8. Lebanon

Culminating in the 2005 assassination of Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri, Lebanon is split by pro- and anti-Syrian forces vying for control of the government. Other risks include military battles in the south with neighboring Israel and civil unrest.

9. Zimbabwe

Anti-western sentiment prominently expressed by officials, out-of-control inflation and oppression employed by the government to silence dissenting voices are common in Zimbabwe.

10. Palestinian Territories

The region is caught in a brutal tug-of-war between pro-Fatah and pro-Hamas factions. Political and military battles with Israel, especially in the Gaza Strip, have made the security situation in this territory very unstable. Poverty and chronic violence add to the instability.

HP sahib

In NO WAY would I ever support the taliban. This is the thing that I said in my earlier post, the beduin onslaught is mutating pukhtoon culture on a massive level. the norms are changing and the attitudes along with them. I was making the point that the pukhtoons are victims of this wave of wahabism... these suicide bombings and beheading in public are a direct result of that strategic move of replacing the nationalists with the fundamentalists, which was executed to perfection during the 80s. My first post was about some of the interactors here who reffered to the pashtoons as some subhuman beings incapable of rational decision making.

In my opinion, the short term solution for this problem is the same as for any insurgency, military means coupled with diplomacy. The most important factor in that is the sincerity of the Pakitan army. In that recent incident where those 30 brave FC jawans held the sararogha fort for six hours in the face of an onslaught led by baitullah mehsud himself, no support was provided, to me this casts serious doubts on the sincerity of the GHQ in dealing with this menace.

For the long term, we need to get rid of this "sensitivity" towards criticism of islam. As long as we put religion in the preamble of our constitution the parameters of debate within this country would be determined by the mullah. And we all know how efficient they are in gaining mileage from that.

US missile whacks jihadis a few miles away from a paki base and the jihadis respond by whacking paki army soldiers?

sounds like a win-win situation to me..

5 security men slain in N Waziristan suicide attack

* Local administration says blast killed 19, including 9 FC troops
* Roadside explosion injures two soldiers in South Waziristan

By Haji Mujtaba

MIRANSHAH: A suicide bomber rammed an explosives-laden car into a security checkpost in North Waziristan on Friday, killing six people, officials said.

The attack comes three days after a missile attack in Mir Ali town that killed top Al Qaeda commander Abu Laith Al-Libi.

“It was a suicide attack on a security checkpost in which three tribal policemen and two paramilitary soldiers [died],� military spokesman Maj Gen Athar Abbas told Daily Times. Eight others were injured, he added.

19 ‘dead’: Local administration sources said 19 people including nine Frontier Corps soldiers died in the attack. They said a number of tribal policemen (Khasadars) and civilians were also killed.

Yasser, dear boy, you have been touting the merits of the Cabinet Mission Plan that was rejected by Nehru and the Congress Party.

Guess what? The world has come full circle and is now proposing a Cabinet Mission Plan.... but this time for Pakistan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/opinion/01harrison.html?_r=1& oref=slogin

Drawn and Quartered

By SELIG S. HARRISON
Published: February 1, 2008

WHATEVER the outcome of the Pakistani elections, now scheduled for Feb. 18, the existing multiethnic Pakistani state is not likely to survive for long unless it is radically restructured.

Given enough American pressure, a loosely united, confederated Pakistan could still be preserved by reinstating and liberalizing the defunct 1973 Constitution, which has been shelved by successive military rulers. But as matters stand, the Punjabi-dominated regime of Pervez Musharraf is headed for a bloody confrontation with the country’s Pashtun, Baluch and Sindhi minorities that could well lead to the breakup of Pakistan into three sovereign entities.

In that event, the Pashtuns, concentrated in the northwestern tribal areas, would join with their ethnic brethren across the Afghan border (some 40 million of them combined) to form an independent “Pashtunistan.� The Sindhis in the southeast, numbering 23 million, would unite with the six million Baluch tribesmen in the southwest to establish a federation along the Arabian Sea from India to Iran. “Pakistan� would then be a nuclear-armed Punjabi rump state.

In historical context, such a breakup would not be surprising. There had never been a national entity encompassing the areas now constituting Pakistan, an ethnic mélange thrown together hastily by the British for strategic reasons when they partitioned the subcontinent in 1947.

For those of Pashtun, Sindhi and Baluch ethnicity, independence from colonial rule created a bitter paradox. After resisting Punjabi domination for centuries, they found themselves subjected to Punjabi-dominated military regimes that have appropriated many of the natural resources in the minority provinces — particularly the natural gas deposits in the Baluch areas — and siphoned off much of the Indus River’s waters as they flow through the Punjab.

The resulting Punjabi-Pashtun animosity helps explain why the United States is failing to get effective Pakistani cooperation in fighting terrorists. The Pashtuns living along the Afghan border are happy to give sanctuary from Punjabi forces to the Taliban, which is composed primarily of fellow Pashtuns, and to its Qaeda friends.

Pashtun civilian casualties resulting from Pakistani and American air strikes on both sides of the border are breeding a potent underground Pashtun nationalist movement. Its initial objective is to unite all Pashtuns in Pakistan, now divided among political jurisdictions, into a unified province. In time, however, its leaders envisage full nationhood. After all, before the British came, the Pashtuns had been politically united under the banner of an Afghan empire that stretched eastward into the Punjabi heartland.

The Baluch people, for their part, have been waging intermittent insurgencies since their forced incorporation into Pakistan in 1947. In the current warfare Pakistani forces are widely reported to be deploying American-supplied aircraft and intelligence equipment that was intended for use in Afghan border areas. Their victims are forging military links with Sindhi nationalist groups that have been galvanized into action by the death of Benazir Bhutto, a Sindhi hero as was her father, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.

The breakup of Pakistan would be a costly and destabilizing development that can still be avoided, but only if the United States and other foreign donors use their enormous aid leverage to convince Islamabad that it should not only put the 1973 Constitution back into effect, but amend it to go beyond the limited degree of autonomy it envisaged. Eventually, the minorities want a central government that would retain control only over defense, foreign affairs, international trade, communications and currency. It would no longer have the power to oust an elected provincial government, and would have to renegotiate royalties on resources with the provinces.

In the shorter term, the Bush administration should scrap plans to send Special Forces into border areas in pursuit of Al Qaeda, which would only strengthen Islamist links with Pashtun nationalists. It should help secular Pashtun forces to compete with the Islamists by pushing for fair representation of Pashtun areas now barred from political participation.

It is often argued that the United States must stand by Mr. Musharraf and a unitary Pakistani state to safeguard Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal. But the nuclear safeguards depend on the Pakistani Army as an institution, not on the president. They would not be affected by a break-up, since the nuclear weapons would remain under the control of the Punjabi rump state and its army.

The Army has built up a far-flung empire of economic enterprises in all parts of Pakistan with assets in the tens of billions, and can best protect its interests by defusing the escalating conflict with the minorities. Similarly, the minorities would profit from cooperative economic relations with the Punjab, and for this reason prefer confederal autonomy to secession. All concerned, including the United States, have a profound stake in stopping the present slide to Balkanization.

Selig S. Harrison is the director of the Asia program at the Center for International Policy and the author of “In Afghanistan’s Shadow,� a study of Baluch nationalism.

I don't think we can simplify the issue by just focusing on the tribal aspect of Pashtuns. Moreover, I think as a community they all are going through an identity crisis.

Historically, they've always felt squeezed between two civilizations: Khorasan on one side(to which they were a part, but their language was not given official importance), and the Indus Civilization to the east.

Now some of them think they can--literally and figuartively-kill two birds with one stone: Salafism. Taliban push their ethnic agenda under the pretence that they are the real muslims, and not their two neighbors.

This situation is a royal mess. So many innocent persons will perish alongside the terrorists.

Re: # 93 pavo

Don't worry about my "sentiments"... I have none.. :)

Brits sure used divide and rule policy which did create polarization among communities... but that's not the whole story...

Re: # 93 pavo

Don't worry about my "sentiments"... I have none.. :)

Brits sure used divide and rule policy which did create polarization among communities... but that's not the whole story...

My Dear Sir , What I humbly meant was that Pakistan was created because of British policies adopted after 1858.My apologies if this assertion hurt your sentiments.

Re: # 90 pavo

Pakiland is NOT a british creation.. it's a muslim creation, muslims wanted it and they got it...

It's another matter they couldn't hack it, they didn't have the discipline, determination, vision and leadsersip to make a nation... let's not blame the brits :)

The bombs are to blackmail the Americans with the idea that if Islamists seize them America would be threatened.All for money.

Re: # 87 Does Pakistan Exist ? It never did sir ! It was a British creation ! Do see my article " Does Pakistan Exist".

Re: # 87 Here is the difference.The Kashmiris are Punjabis basically or very close ethnically to Punjabis .With Pashtuns of tribal areas the Punjabi establishment has a biased view.They use them when they like and discard them when the USA gives them rishwat and also kicks them.

Re: # 21 Fuzair --- The Sikhs failed to control the tribal areas.Hari Singh Nalwa was shot dead at Jamrud.Even Mardan and Charsada were in nominal control and the sikhs did not use mosques in pashtun areas as stables like they did in Punjab.If they did please let me know with supporting references.

Curzon could not have extended towards Afghanistan because the Russians were already on the Oxus River.Further British policy to keep Afghanistan as a buffer was formulated in between 1842 and 1880 and had already proved a great success in 1857 and even WW One.

Pakistan should defends the FARTA "freedom-fighters" at all cost. They do the same for the Kashmiri "freedom-fighters". Don't they? Pakistani Army doesn't give in and attack them when challenged/asked by India. Pakistani Gov. and Army should do the same wrt the FARTA "freedom-fighters" as they battle the NATA and American troops.
Pakistan has enough "bombs" for each NATO member. If they cannot protect their sovereignty of what use are the "bombs"?

The tribals may have been mercenaries but they had a glorious record against the British.Actually Mahsud recruitment was banned or reduced after WW One and Afridis also regarded with great suspicion after the indomitable Mir Mast Afridi defected to German lines with 14 other Afridis.He was awarded Iron Cross by the German Kaiser and sent with a large cash reward in gold coins to Tirah to start a revolt.

The Brits cleverly awarded Mir Dast Afridi Mir Mast's cosuin in the same area, Ypres I think the VC.

Re: # 20 I was in Helmand in 2004 and three guys from Makhdum Rashid Multan " CHHEY KASSI" were martyred.The Talibs made it a point to transport their bodies till Nushki Balochistan.So Punjabis have contributed but the perception in tribal and pashtun areas is that this is a war between punjabi and non punjabi.May be this is not wholly correct but this is bad.I was a bit too warmed up so I did not read the article properly.

Now that I have read it , I would say Khalid Bhatti has his views.Comments follow in due course.

I dont know Jafar Khan directly but I think he did know my father.I saw him for a short time in 1985 when he was on his way out.I understand that Saroop Khan was the main reason for his demise.That off course is a compliment to Jafar Khan . A thorough gentleman although one of my close friends who was with Jafar Khan found him a man with many complexes.I guess this is not the right place to discuss Jafar Khan.I am just referring to Fuzair's post.

Re: # 21 My dear Fuzair I think I had too much Stolichnaya that night . Disregard all comments.

Khalid Bhatti has a viewpoint and we all have viewpoints , so we may not agree with him but he is there also.

Re: # 69 HP Sain , This refers to your post about FC.

The FC is an abbreviation of the British and means Frontier Corps created after English East India Company's occupation of Punjab ( NWFP then part of Punjab) which it captured from the Sikhs.

More familiarly its known as scouts.Many times its confused with Frontier Constabulary which is not the real FC.

Scouts was officered by British Army officers , raised mostly in 1880s , although Khyber Rifles first Commandant was Sardar Aslam Khan or Sardar Alam Khan ,a Saddozai from Afghan Royal family.FC is an all pashtun force officered by the army on deputation for an average 2 years term.Technically its under Ministry of Interior but de facto control is with the army.Since its an all Pashtun force its officers of captain major colonel brigadier and major general rank mostly punjabis have limited control over the troops who are organised in platoons based on caste/tribal basis.

capt clueless: if the paki army can't keep fata within pureland, it'll have lost it's raison d'etre...and the value of it's land holdings will sing significantly..

after all, you pakis were down with the army takeovers because the valiant army was going to fix the hindoo, take over kashmir and protect the momin...now if the army can't do anyone of the things, abdul paki might ask why his son is going to the madrassah to fight for allah's causes while the general's son goes to a school a with petting zoo..

#60 Posted by MantoLives on January 31, 2008 10:34:02 pm


The creation of the "jehadists" (now called the taliban) in Afghan refugee camps


what about the 10+ years in which the paki army, by itself, fed the jihadi snake for it's strategic depth dreams in afghanistan and kashmir banega pakiland wet dreams...

that never happened...pureland is blameless..

#70 Posted by MantoLives on January 31, 2008 11:03:51 pm


an Egyptian holding company took over three major companies in Pakistan recently... WOL, DOLS and Z-wll... all in the aftermath of Benazir's assassination. How is that possible.


yes..the world famous(in pakistan) companies WOL, DOLS and z-wll got taken over..I read about in the new york times above the fold(tata nano and tata taking over jaguar was on the back pages)

btw...which egyptian company? orascom? i thought that was a pakistani company..

and did you read about how the foreign investment numbers are now negative in the circle of self-delusion that is that paki stock market....

you're really clutching at straws...next you'll be asking us to wear t-shirts with paki flags...

Re: HP

You said, and I quote:

"One more thing, only the western educated people have the ability to run the modern states. When barely educated try to run the country, they end up giving their independence and their resources to others fairly quickly. The Taliban could not run Afghanistan. The Pakistani Taliban and the Madrassah educated maulvi and their fellow traveler Jihadi will not be able to run the Tribal areas too."

Agreed!

That is the argument; can Taliban govern Pakistan? The politics of FATA - tribal politics - is different from Pakistani politics and it is much more easy to conguer than govern. Governance means making compromises and accepting the interests of all the stakeholders and the Pakistani society is much more varied than the simplicity of the Afghan tribal bonds, which held and allowed the rule by Taliban, which was a cocktail of Islam, feudalism and tribal loyalities.

Pakistan is a feudal society and not a tribal society per se and it may be conservative, but it is not regressive as the tribal lands in their customs.

Would be interested in hearing more on this topic from you if you have the time and interest...

Ciao

manto, 77

that is really sad, even when I give some good policy options for pakistan, there is no one to listen.

Here is an inside story. Why Kiyani got promoted.

After mushy got the phone call from Collin Powel, " if you are not with us, you are against us", mushy ( it is in his auto biograhy) he asked the generals to do a war game scenario. All the generals said, there is no option, follow the yanks.

It was Kiyani who indicated the nuclear option. Mushy liked it and Kiyani was marked for promotion.

By the way, do you know why Kiyani never visits forward areas or where weapons are stored. He is a chain smoker. He smokes Benson and Hedges, 5Mg tar content

Don't worry. We will create our strategic depth by shoving those ghauri missiles up your rear orifice.

I am a well wisher of pakistan and that country needs some respect in the comity of nations. I want pakistan to have its much desired strategic depth to fight the indians so that teh surrender of 90,000 troops will never happen again.

A hell fire missile from a predator kills a dozen in pakistan. That was two days ago. Today pakitan fires a nuclear capable missile and declares that pakistan will not tolerate violation of its sovereignity.

The yanks do not listen. Yet another hell fire attack.

Pakistan nuclear missile targets bagram base where most nato troops are housed in afghanistan. In the resulting shock and awe, the pushtoon tribals, of kashmir 1947 fame maraud into afghanistan. The last US troop is plucked from the embassy roof top like the vietnam style.

Pakistan has defeated the biggest bully, afghanistan is annexed by pakistan and achieves strategic depth.

I am always ready to help pakistanis with viable ideas, that is all I can do, in between sipping toddy under the kerala sun.

Pakistan zindabad...ghouri missiles zindabad.

i am currently trying to get some software engineers into pakistan, for some projects......i cannot get anyone to go......forget about americans and french (and indians)......even egyptians aren't going......the few that were there, left after the emergency......yes egyptians - people from a country, which has been in an emergency for decades!!


Poor Romair 67.

Have you heard the news that the british high commission is shifting to Dubai. More are planning to shift. Britan has offered open skies to PIA as they are withdrawing from flights to pakistan.

Take it from me romair, when most of teh bank robberies are done by the bank security guards..well not many would want to be in that country.

Have you heard of the latest. The jundella jihadi group are involved in bank roberies and kidnappings...not many would want to come to a country where religious groups are becoming robers, robing in the name of god.

Re: # 71

Yes. It is unfortunate but draws the lines clearly I think.

#64 by majumdar

What was indefensible was Pakistan and USA's creation and support of Taliban (USA's support allegedly at the behest of Unocal and their likes) to rule A'stan by proxy in 1995-2001.

Exactly my point Majumdar bhai. Even at the end of the Afghan war, things hadn't spilled into Pakistan's tribal areas with the conflict amongst various warlords remaining within Afghanistan and whatever little activity in the tribal areas (things like support to warlords like Hekmatyar) happening very much under the radar. It was only the creation of the Taliban and their active support to the Al Qaeda that changed things. Now how much of it is attributed to the US and how much to the Paki army remains moot, but IMO at best the US can be accused of not foreseeing the Taliban becoming taking over the whole of the country. It is the Paki army that trained, armed, and in many instances fought alongside them. Seymour Hersh's report on how Paki officers fighting alongside the Taliban were evacuated by PAF (or the PA) helicopters while the USAF gave them a safe corridor to Pakistan is one of the most compelling pieces of investigative journalism on Paki collusion.

HP sain,

#69

So basically what you are saying is that there is no impediment (constitutional or otherwise) to Pak military presence in FATA (which is I guess what it shud be like). In that case Pak army shud go inside and clean out the Paki Talibs if that is what the GOP thinks is the best for Pakistan.

Romair,

(pakistan has neither the strength, nor the means, to fight usa nor to fight the taliban.......)

Agreed about fighting the US part, not sure about Pak Army not having the strenght to fight the Talibs. More like Pak Army does not want to for:

Desire to keep a strategic asset alive.
Unwillingness to absorb militray casualties and terrorist attacks on civilians.

Regards

#66 Posted by MantoLives
"Unfortunately... our histories have gotten so entagnled with "ideology"

Pavo, at this time is looking to find every fault that he could find to justify his pro-jihadi bent. I believe that all the JI inspired have gone back to the Madoodi thesis before the partition: ML bad, Congress good!

Re: # 67

I am afraid money is not a good enough reason to abandon our good friends the tribals. You are wrong about the Egyptians though. Why only yesterday I met with a group of Egyptian investors who were laughing when I mentioned the security threat.

Here is another tip... an Egyptian holding company took over three major companies in Pakistan recently... WOL, DOLS and Z-wll... all in the aftermath of Benazir's assassination. How is that possible.

Just admit that you are way out of your depth.

#65 Posted by majumdar
"I have understood Zee sahib correctly,"

Half the time Zee sahib does not know where is right hand is!

dada, if you want to discuss this with me then you need to have better references.

The Pak army always had presence in the tribal areas. The FC is a new thing before that it was all army. Even the FC is managed by the army!

Dada, please just read the posts and save your opinions. Asking questions is okay!
Temp military campaign or the long term presence both are okay.

Re: # 66

Infact... it was in the context of the Unionists' hold over Punjab that MAJ made that comment about Punjab being a hopeless place... because of the politics of the Punjabi feudals which were anathema to both Nehru and Jinnah especially in 1936.

Ref: Pavocavalry's post.

...i am currently trying to get some software engineers into pakistan, for some projects......i cannot get anyone to go......forget about americans and french (and indians)......even egyptians aren't going......the few that were there, left after the emergency......yes egyptians - people from a country, which has been in an emergency for decades!!

why is all this happening.....because bombs are going off in lahore and islamabad......not really because of the martial law (china is under a dictatorship, and does booming business)......martial law is bad for institutions, but the economy ignores it, as long as there is peace in the country and a demand for business.......

pakistan, currently, has huge demand for software.....people can become millionaires, in this field......india is saturated and is running out of IT engineers....companies (including indian companies) need to go to other countries, now.....on top of that, from what i have seen, i have yet to see a city in south asia with a better infrastructure than islamabad; nor have i seen a better, "older city" in south asia than lahore....both islamabad and lahore are quite a bit better than bangalore.....i visit all three regularly....

yet, pakistan has such a poor reputation in the world for business safety.....people will go to sri lanka and israel, two countries that are in a state of civil war......but not pakistan!!

all because of our policies which are rooted in emotion, in what happened 60 years ago, and in arm twisting of usa......

who gives a flying f what jinnah said 60 years ago and what tribals did then......they had a job to do, and they did it......if i commit a crime today, should i be forgiven, because of what my great grandfather did 75 years ago.......let's wake up and live in the 21st century....we can build a monument for jinnah and those tribals, but what is happening today is what is important....

similarly, why in the world is it pakistan's job to fight usa's war on terror......usa has pissed off the so many arab countries; primary by killing their people....let the usa fight them.....why should pakistan let the war be fought in pakistan.......by pakistan, i mean lahore and islamabad and karachi; not fata.......

so let fata fight usa, if it wants.....and let usa fight fata if it wants.....and not support either.......both the usa leadeship and fata leadership are nuts.....they will destroy each other......let them do so, without getting involved......pakistan has neither the strength, nor the means, to fight usa nor to fight the taliban.......

in the meanwhile, let's live in the 21st century and see what we can do to create a situation where computer scientists want to go to pakistan and do business.....

majumdar,

Agreed.

Correction: MAJ (PBUH) did not work with the Unionist feudals with the exception of the Sikandar Jinnah pact. After this MAJ delivered a stinging defeat to the Unionists in 1946 elections. It was the Congress and the British together came to the rescue of the Unionist feudals in 1946 by forming the government... to the utter disappointment of the League and the communists who were favoring a League-Congress coalition.

Please read this article: http://www.chowk.com/articles/12747

Unfortunately... our histories have gotten so entagnled with "ideology" and "compartments"... anti-partition pro-partition ... anti-Jinnah pro-Jinnah... etc that we have stopped recognizing the facts.

HP sain,

Re: #62

There is no question that FATA is an integral part of Pkaistan. But (I am not aware of FATA's constt) if I have understood Zee sahib correctly, Pakistan Army is not allowed to be in FATA at all as per their understanding. (However correct me if I wrong.) So the status quo gets violated the moment Pak Army entres W'stan.

Are you suggesting a temporary military campaign in W'stan and then after the militants are taken care of, the Pak Army withdraws and the status quo is restored?

Regards

Manto mian,

I dont blame either the US Govt. or for that matter even G. Zia and the GOP for supporting the jihad in A'stan during the period 1979-88. What were they supposed to do when an expansionist and evil power (which is what USSR was regardless of what Masadi may say) was occupying another country? For Pakistan it was a serious threat. And there was the matter of Vietnam to be avenged. And if this was the case they had to work with whatever was available (just like MAJ (pbuh) had to work with the Unionist feudals) which meant ethinc warlords like Massood and Islamist elements.

Both the US govt and Pakistan govt did the right thing in the period 1979-88.

What was indefensible was Pakistan and USA's creation and support of Taliban (USA's support allegedly at the behest of Unocal and their likes) to rule A'stan by proxy in 1995-2001.

Regards

PS: We cannot abandon our solemn promise to the Pushtun tribes just so that romair mian can have a good time in Canada without having to hide his Pakistani origin.

#57 Posted by majumdar
"you cannot achieve the second without doing the first. To destroy the jihadis you have to enter FATA and keep it occupied for some period of time"

I guess you are not paying attention. FATA is still part of Pakistan and the Pak army can legitimately be there and it will not be an occupation. when the army is fighting the foreigners or the foreigner supported elements, all its actions in FATA are legit.

Try and understand this analogy. The Indian army can operate in Kashmir w/o calling it an occupation because it has a legit agreement with the Kashmir state. Similarly, the Pak army can operate in FATA. That cannot or should not be called an occupation.(this analogy is not meant to bring Kashmir in to this issue)

The first job of any civilian government in Pakistan would be to order the army in the tribal areas, if the tribes don't stop supporting the taliban and jihadis.

That is what Benazir agreed with the US and that is what the next civilian PM of Pakistan would do!

I am afraid Bulleya is way off the mark.

HP is right.

Re: # 54

The creation of the "jehadists" (now called the taliban) in Afghan refugee camps was sanctified by a curious alliance of some southern democrats and liberals in cahoots with some far right wingers... all together to defend capitalism.

In Pakistan they found willing allies in Ahmad Shah masood and Hikmatyar (ironically brought in by the late Zulfikar Ali Bhutto to organize an insurgency against the Daud regime) along General Zia.

Ultimately they put up upto half a billion Dollars in weapons aid to these guys ... which was matched by another half a billion by the Saudis.

So just blaming the khakis for an international capitalist consortium is just off.

majumdar #: "You neither want to assimilate them nor do you want them to secede. So what do you want them to?"

...yes this is the problem that all policies and people have who want others to be a part of their country......if fata wants to separate, why should pakistan hold onto it...why create a perpetual state of war......what in the world is pakistan getting out of it.....

....on the other hand, if they want to declare a war, on their own, against nato in another country, then why does it become pakistan's responsibility to support them.....at the cost of pakistan itself......

is pakistan being seen as the most dangerous country in the world, becasue pakistan is dangerous, or because fata is dangerous?.......obviously the later......

fata cannot have it both ways.......either they should follow pakistan's policies and not declare war in other countries......or they should be off on their own......

trust me, fata will not separate from pakistan......they know where their financial bread is buttered.......so instead of bombing the place, why not just tell them that they are free to decide their own foreign policy, however they will not be under pakistan's financial or security umbrella.......

(i remember reading somewhere that the local govt. of small town on the border of mexico and and texas declared that us immigration would not be allowed to prosecute illegal aliens within the town.....the town had a majority mexican-american population......if i remember corrently the state govt. simply said, fine but you don't get us funds, then.....i.e you are back to being mexico.......which is the country that the mexicans had left to come to america, into this town)......

fata cannot have it both ways.....either it should get pakistani funds and security and follow pakistani laws and foreign policy......or if it wants its own laws and foreign policy, then it should generate its own funds......

#54 Posted by harish_hyd
Well Taliban were not there when the Afghan war was on. They were still studying in the Madrassah!

Actually blaming the Pak army is not entirely correct either. The Pak army was training the MUJ in 1977-78-79 in the settled areas. However, as the number of refugees from Afgan increased, the jihadi fervor in the tribes increased too. In 1979, even the US help was declined by calling that peanuts. The CIA involvement had begun in the July 0f 1979 after the Secret memo from Brzezinski. The US aid picked up steam in 1981 after Reagan took over and the CIA director Casey made the case for a full support of the Pakistan army and the ISI in the afghan war.

It was then the pak army and the CIA opened training centers in the tribal areas.

So some of the blame does go the tribe and they are not entirely innocent. They wanted help from the CIA, the US and ISI and the pak army to bring the kabul government down and the tribes provided the man power. In the initial years of the war, most of the warriors were recruited from the tribal areas. After the number of Afghan refugees increased, the ISI and CIA had the abundant supply of human as the war fodder!

HP sain,

(I want to maintain the status quo. But the militancy and Jihadis need to be eliminated!)

That is precisely the whole point, you cannot achieve the second without doing the first. To destroy the jihadis you have to enter FATA and keep it occupied for some period of time which is what Pak Army is not permitted to do under the agreement with tribals.

I tend to agree with Romair's POV- if the FATA guys want to wreak havoc let Pakistan not enter FATA militarily but turn a blind eye to NATO if it bombs FATA back to the stone ages. And then the tribals shud not come crying to GOP.

Regards

Majumdar,

I didn't know you had embraced George W. Bush as your guru.

In other words, Iraq is free today because it can elect people to its parliament but was unfree under Saddam Hussain because the latter was a brutal authoritarian dictator. Legally constitutionally and morally, even if Kashmir did have elected representatives as you say (a disputed contention) ... a political government does not necessarily make Kashmiris free people.

Representative government is no doubt the best form of government for a free people. However representative government is no substitute for independence for a people in chains.

This article is not about Kashmir. The principle however is the same for the people of FATA as well. Giving them representation, "civilizing them" etc is not a good excuse to take them over.

The desire of one man to keep another within his empire, forcefully, has, historically, been a large cause of violence.......i am always amazed by individuals who have never even visited a place, wanting that place to be a part of their country........

.......there is no way pakistan can, forcefully, keep fata within its adminstration......it has never been done and won't be possible now.......much like india has not been able to keep kashmir quiet for 60 years.....

....the one advantage pakistan had in fata was that the fata citizens weren't anti-pakistan....they went on with their lives, and knew where their bread was buttered.....i.e, where in the world would they go if they became totally independent (unlike kashmiris, who knew they could join pakistan - something which would not bring down their economic standards).......

however, now the dynamics have totally changed in fata.......they are the support system for the taliban's resistence in afghanistan, and allegedly, a central base for al-qaeda.......this scares the hell out of the rest of the world......

and this portrays pakistan as the most dangerouse place in the world.......anyone who has been to pakistan will know that lahore, islamabad, larkana, karachi etc. aren't the most dangerous places in the world......however fata certainly is......and due to fata, the rest of the country is turning into the most dangerous place in the world......

......before people get over-excited by the ability of afghans to fight, they should realize that there is nothing a person with a gun can do against a missile......

taliban can defeat nato if nato is trying to occupy territory.......however, they cannot do much if nato wants to destroy territory from 10,000 feet......

so, if tomorrow nato decided to bomb the living daylights out of fata, what could fata do......what could pakistan do.......will it go into a war with the usa?......

so pakistan is between a rock and a hard place......if it doesn't invade fata, usa will bomb it, and isolate pakistan.....if it does attack fata, the attack will fail and taliban and al-qaeda will start carrying out terrorist campaigns in lahore and islamabad.....

should pakistan get into a war with the rest of the world, just because people in fata want to fight a war against nato, against the direction of state of pakistan.....obviously not.......

should pakistan invade fata, just because usa wants to fight its gwot, and in the process destroy lahore and karachi and pindi......obvioulsy not......

so what should it do?

it should support neither fata, nor usa.....it should tell fata that they cannot fight their own war in afghanistan if the state of pakistan has not authorised it.......and if they still want to do it, then they are on their own......they should not come to pakistan for assistance, if nato bombs them.......

this is the equivalent of letting fata go its own way.......

as for fata fighting for kashmir......that happened 60 years ago.....its about time, pakistanis started living in the present-day world......and started understanding present-day dynamics.......bengalis fought more for pakistan than anyone else......now they are a separate country......times change and dynamics change.......

#51 by majumdar

Pak Army did not step in of their own volition. They were bullied by the US into doing so.

Majumdar bhai, the whole thing started with the Paki army's creation of the Taliban. So in a sense, more than US bullying, it is the Paki army that is responsible for the mess the tribal areas are today. No Taliban, no Al Qaeda, no Jihad, no US pressure. As simple as that.

#49 Posted by majumdar
"You neither want to assimilate them nor do you want them to secede. So what do you want them to?"

Dada, very simple! I want to maintain the status quo. Things should remain where they are. But the militancy and Jihadis need to be eliminated!

#38 Posted by adamkhan

“The difference is because of the huge amount of money pumped in this region to brain wash our masses, if there were that many madrassahs in punjab or sindh, i assure you things would have been a lot more different down south as well.�

That is correct but the investment is only made in areas that welcome it. Madrassah are part of the Pushtoon tradition. There were always more Madrassah in NWFP and FATA then in Punjab, Sindh or Balochistan. The Pushtoon fought the afghan war on religious lines and it was natural for the investors (whoever they might be) to create more of the Jihadi. Madrassah were the natural academy to develop poorly educated youth in to Jihadi warriors. No one in NWFP spoke against the extension of the Madrassah and now we see the results.

I have great regard for the Pushtoon in the settled areas and I am afraid they are victims of the war in Afghanistan too. The society in NWFP, as you mentioned, has change and the changes have consequences. Good changes help bring economic prosperity and bad changes ruin the nations. History is replete with the stories about some nations that made good and some others that disappeared from the face of the earth. The Pushtoon nation is in a major quandary. You can blame the Pak army or the ambitious general or the international politics, but the Pushtoons will pay the price for their adventure. It is a tragedy. However, you perhaps can still retrieve something but the path of supporting the Taliban would only lead to destruction!

Harishbhai,

Re: #50

Pak Army did not step in of their own volition. They were bullied by the US into doing so. So to go back to pre-2001 is either of the three:

US gets out of A'stan.
The tribals stop their jihad.
US stops bullying Pak Army into taking action in W'stan.

Regards

#49 by majumdar

You neither want to assimilate them nor do you want them to secede. So what do you want them to?

I would assume HP sahib wants the pre-2001 arrangement back, when the tribal areas were autonomous with only minimal interference from Pakistan. That arrangement had worked well for almost a century and would have continued to do so had the Paki army not stepped in.

HP sain,

Re: #32

(There really is no need to assimilate FATA into the Pakistan.)

&

(They should never be given an option to renounce their Pakistani citizenship or given an opportunity to breakaway from Pakistan.)

You neither want to assimilate them nor do you want them to secede. So what do you want them to?

Regards

#38 Posted by adamkhan

“If the taliban's power wanes then how is that a reaffirmation of shariah? OR why would the maliks be resisting if shariah allows them to keep their current power structure!?�

Khan sahib.
You are commenting on two different statements in two different paras. In the first para I mentioned that Taliban might have hurt the political clout and the next para read as,� One more thing the shariah does not remove mehsud, wazir, mohmand from peoples’ minds overnight. In fact, shariah does no such thing. Shariah is reaffirmation and the reestablishment of the tribal system. It is not contrary to the tribal system.�

And both statements are correct! Taliban cannot end the tribal system because by implementing shariah they are actually reaffirming the tribal system so all the stories about Taliban ending the Tribal system are bogus! I hope you can see the differences in two statements and then their correlation. As the Taliban power recedes, the Shariah too would go away but the tribal system will stay!

� The difference between shariah and the tribal system is that shariah erodes all ethnic identities. From a tribe you go on to become part of a bigger brotherhood.�

Khan Sahib this is just hogwash and people are blinded by the fairytale. The communists and socialist also made claims of the equality of human. There is nothing on this earth at least in the foreseeable future that could erode all the ethnic identities. Even during the so called Islamic era, the ethnic identities were solidified and not eroded!

As long as the current social structure exists in FATA, tribal identities will remain. The changes to the social system come via the economic changes and migration of people for economic activities. You put factories in FATA, industrialize FATA, people from the warring tribes would cease fighting and get involved in some legitimate economic activity and they will forget the tribal differences and work in the factories together.

Since no one is going to put any money for factories down in FATA, for another century or so, the area will remain the way it is now. Shariah will actually further divide the people over petty religious differences and the mosques will become center of cultural and political skirmishes between the tribes.

The Taliban and the people who support them are driving people to the inhuman activities and their actions will impact the whole Pushtoon nation and yes, at that time you should really be ready to hear the noises about the subhuman activities of the tribes. These activities will extend to the settled areas, if the FATA is allowed to merge with the settled areas.

Truth is not easy to absorb when you first hear it. If necessary changes are not made in the tribal areas, the sounds of subhuman will only increase in intensity.

If people like you support the Shariah and the further isolation of the tribes along the religious lines then I am afraid the worst elements of the tribal society will control the people and every thing that I wrote in my post #32 will happen.

Lastly, The Taliban or the tribes have no chance in the world to win this war. They will lose because they are fighting against the history, they are fighting against the progress and they are fighting for the medieval social values.

One more thing, only the western educated people have the ability to run the modern states. When barely educated try to run the country, they end up giving their independence and their resources to others fairly quickly. The Taliban could not run Afghanistan. The Pakistani Taliban and the Madrassah educated maulvi and their fellow traveler Jihadi will not be able to run the Tribal areas too.

#46 Posted by majumdar

Yasser/Majumdar bhai,

The Kashmiris are already a free people, they have the right to elect their own state govt and the national govt.

And the fact is that candidates standing in the local elections in "Azad" Kashmir are actually required to sign an undertaking promising their full support to the accession of AJK to Pakistan. Many local politicians, prominent among them Amanullah Khan one of the founders of the JKLF were not allowed to contest because they refused to sign this undertaking.

How does one reconcile this fact with Pakistan's demand that Kashmiris be given the right to self-determination?

Manto mian,

(The question was never of Pakistani expansionism but of Soviet and Indian designs. Pushtuns saved the world from Soviet expansionism.)

Soviet expansionism died in 1990. So what was Pakistan doing creating the Talibs in 1995 under BB's govt?

(In Kashmir, the freedom fighters are fighting a bellum justum.)

The Kashmiris are already a free people, they have the right to elect their own state govt and the national govt. In any case, there is no point in Pakistan fighting for Kashmiris right to self-determination unless it gives the same to its own people.

Regards

Tribal people are much more honorable, civilized, passionate and democratic than hypocrites...

Hypocrites must leave them alone...

They are also better off than most of the lost stinky alcoholics of this board...

If we respect ourselves...then we have to respect tribal people as well ...and if we respect our human rights and freedom..then we have to respect their choices as well...

So no need to make them "civilized" ...

majumdar,

I have interacted with a lot of people from the tribal areas and they are not taliban. Conservative yes but not taliban. Nothing is black and white. Operation Curzon was a masterstroke of diplomacy the like of which Pakistan has not seen since. Unfortunately the advantages were squandered by us through this invasion.

The question was never of Pakistani expansionism but of Soviet and Indian designs. Pushtuns saved the world from Soviet expansionism. In Kashmir, the freedom fighters are fighting a bellum justum.

Manto mian,

(They were for the longest time, Pakistan's greatest cheerleaders and supporters... who was the first one in Kashmir? Who was the first one in Afghanistan?)

Are you saying that you support Pakistan's expansionist strategies in J&K and A'stan and the means (Talibani-jihadi) to achieve them?

(I am afraid Pakistan and the US both are going to lose this war)

I dont think so, the Pak-US alliance will substantially decimate the Paki Talibs (if the alliance wants to that is). But Pakistan is going to pay a huge price.

(However I generally agree with your view that Tribal areas should not be tampered with. )

Maybe I got you wrong but I thot you were a strong opponent of the Paki Talibs.

Regards

31,

Romair, please review the extent of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Empire.

Your comments are historically inaccurate as usual.

Re: # 15

Romair mian,

That is a very sad and unfortunate comment. FATA has given Pakistan a lot more than you think. They were for the longest time, Pakistan's greatest cheerleaders and supporters... who was the first one in Kashmir? Who was the first one in Afghanistan?

By blindly supporting the US strategy in the tribal areas, we have compromised our own internal security as well as the war on terror. I am afraid Pakistan and the US both are going to lose this war simply because of the ill-advised and extremely stupid invasion of the tribal areas.

As for tribal values etc... who died and gave us the right to "civilize" anyone? Let them evolve at their own pace.

Re: # 29

Adam,

That is an excellent post.

Dear Prince Albert Victor's Own,

Jinnah had called Punjab a hopeless place (in 1936??) because the Unionist Party of Sir Fazli-hussain and Sir Sikandar Hayat after him kept the Nationalists and All India politicians out of Punjab by fiercely insisting on regional particularism. However you may appreciate that Lahore was very much part of Punjab on 23rd March, 1940.

However I generally agree with your view that Tribal areas should not be tampered with. This current policy of tribal invasions has undone all the good done through "Operation Curzon" in 1947.

HP

its not the strokes of a few pens but targeted assassinations of some of the most powerful men in waziristan... the response so far has been.. well.. nothing....

First you say The Taliban on a very limited scale might have hurt the political clout of the Khans and maliks but the Khans and the Malik would regain that influence as the Taliban power starts to wane,

and then you say In fact, shariah does no such thing. Shariah is reaffirmation and the reestablishment of the tribal system. It is not contrary to the tribal system.

If the taliban's power wanes then how is that a reaffirmation of shariah? OR why would the maliks be resisting if shariah allows them to keep their current power structure!?

The difference between shariah and the tribal system is that shariah erodes all ethnic identities. From a tribe you go on to become part of a bigger brotherhood. This means that a wazir qazi can decide if the hands of a mohmand theif be chopped off or not. The tribal malik has no role in that, the jirga is simply replaced by Islamic courts.

This is the mistake that you southerners make while assessing pakhtoons. This current wave of islamic extremism is in NO WAY is a reflection of the pushtoon way of life or of pushtoon identity.

In terms of conservative norms Peshawar in the 70s and 80s was not that different from Lahore at that time. Look at the situation now. The difference is because of the huge amount of money pumped in this region to brain wash our masses, if there were that many madrassahs in punjab or sindh, i assure you things would have been a lot more different down south as well.

This is the price that Pakhtoons are paying for that elusive "strategic depth", a policy that was carried out in the name of Pakistan's national interest, the last thing we need is for the rest of the country to refer to us as some sub-human beings who are not capable of acting normal. This is plain racism, and I do hope you realize that.

Fuzair, Pavo's point holds (and doesn't contradict your view) if we concede that most non-tribals are not the victors you described. Most indeed are, in your words, 'idiots' who (1) do not understand what precisely they must do to gain victory over the tribals, and (2) even if they do understand that, don't have the 'moral courage' or fibre to take those steps. (What the US can do and what the US is able to do for a long-enough period of time are two entirely different things.)

Pakistani army, of course, fully knows and should have no 'moral problem.' But I doubt it has the ability or the desire to fight tribal Pakistani citizens long and hard enough.

So in effect, tribal Pakistanis are invincible, unless Pakistani army suddenly surprises us all.

(I hope it doesn't. I find liberal arguments against tribal Pakistanis to be morally repugnant, but that is just me, on a subjective level alone.)

Whoops, sorry; last Soviet Commander was not Lebed but Gromov; who still walked over the bridge into Tajikistan very slowly and taking his time; demonstrating to the world that the Soviets were not run out of Afghanistan.

Pew,

Major Sahib is PAVOCavalry, who left the Army in 1993 as a Major. Don't know if he was superceded or left voluntarily, I suspect the latter as he was probably too junior to be superceded by a promotion board (maybe he didn't get Staff College, which would have been the kiss of death for his career--if he hadn't already sabotaged it himself!). PAVO is Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry, 11 FF, btw; a fine old namak halal colonial regiment that delighted in keeping the Afghan scum out of the King Emperor's lands.

Quite ironic given the Good Major's current views! ;-)

Buleya is a FM (Honorary) Retd. Captain, but sometimes I wonder about this since he is quite elusive about his actual service.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

HP,

Hamida Khoro said, almost thirty years ago, that the real tragedy of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was that we had just started trying to civilize our Pathans when all those Afghan barbarians poured into Pakistan and undid all the work.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Romair,

Come on, if you have any sort of a military background at all, you know that the Mujahideen did not defeat the Soviet Union; the Soviet Union decided to leave. They were not pursued out of Afghanistan, leaving hundreds and thousands of dead soldiers littering the trail behind them. Remember how contemptously Gen. Lebed, the last Soviet Commander, walked over the bridge into Tajikistan? He walked over as teh last man across, emphatically underscoring that the Soviets were leaving of their own accord and were not being chased out.

Re: # 21 Fuzair
Very prescient analysis, especially the reference to Lord Curzon’s ‘forward policy’. Most of the ignoramuses on Chowk have no idea what you were referring to.

By ‘liberating’ FATA, one aspect of Curzon’s policy, i.e. creating a buffer zone between the British Empire and Czarist Russia through a weak Afghanistan will come into effect – this time between the Taliban anarchists and India. The party responsible for maintaining peace in the buffer will be Pakistan, but with no where near the resources that the British Empire had – a daunting prospect for Pakistan, but one that should be pleasing to the mandarins of South Block. There is a big risk in all this though – Pakistan may not be equal to the task, and that might still spell trouble for India.

Die-hard Pakistan ideologues would do well to reassess the rationale for the creation of Pakistan in the first place and absorb the gradual withering of the Pakistan state in the face of unbearable security obligations.

BTW, who were you referring to as ‘Major’? Bulleya? I thought he got out as a Captain. He has the Chowk honorific title ‘Field Marshall’ actually.

#15 Posted by bulleya on January 31, 2008 8:20:00 am


what exactly does pakistan get from fata


you get afghan looks, which, according to you, are necessary for an IT company to succeed.

think about it..without fata, you'll be without 2 of the 3 ingredients you said an IT company needs to succeed: afghan looks, paki management and indian something..

There really is no need to assimilate FATA into the Pakistan. I say this for several reasons:

1.Politically they lean towards religious orthodoxy and their numbers would help the fundamentalism and obscurantism gain political clout in Pakistan.

2.Majority of Pakistanis in the settled areas both politically and religiously have rejected their brand of Islam and politics which rest on the laurels of illegal trade, Arms smuggling and drugs manufacturing.

3.If they are incorporated in NWFP, that province would be forever lost to the humanity and we should never accept that position.

Also, No Pakistani government should allow them to renege on the contract they committed with the Pakistan government at the time of partition. They should never be given an option to renounce their Pakistani citizenship or given an opportunity to breakaway from Pakistan.

I am not saying this for some nationalist reasons. Like having a Taliban controlled Afghanistan in our neighborhood was bad for Pakistan, having an independent area controlled by the most renowned criminals of the country would be worse for Pakistan.

FATA as an independent geographical area would be like inviting the criminals’ world over to come to our neighborhood and start drugs and heroine factories ala Colombia!
Would any one allow that to happen to their neighborhood?

In fact, the center of the drug activity would move down to FATA from South American countries. The pushtoons in FATA have no experience whatsoever in managing nation states. while the Afghanistan under the religious fanatics became the most hated country in the world, FATA under the same set of people would end up not only a safe heaven for the religious fanatics, but also a dream come true for the international crime syndicates.

#29 Posted by adamkhan

“the taliban did when they were gaining influence in the tribal areas was to eliminate tribal maliks.... i.e. to replace the tribal system with shariah... which eventually would mean no difference between mehsud, wazir, mohmand,�

When a person of considerable knowledge of the political process, like you, says something like this with all seriousness, then I am afraid we began to wonder whether the enlightened Pathans too are getting overwhelmed by the Jihadi propaganda machine.

Khan Sahib, you cannot remove the Khan, and the Malik system just by a few strokes of pen or by word of mouth alone. Even in the settled areas of Pakistan de-tribalisation was unsuccessful as it was not backed and followed up by political and economic events that would have helped eliminate the Tribal system.

Taliban have no way of ending the Malik or Khan system as it is part of the Tribal system. The Taliban on a very limited scale might have hurt the political clout of the Khans and maliks but the Khans and the Malik would regain that influence as the Taliban power starts to wane, which would eventually happen in a very short period of time.

One more thing the shariah does not remove mehsud, wazir, mohmand from peoples’ minds overnight. In fact, shariah does no such thing. Shariah is reaffirmation and the reestablishment of the tribal system. It is not contrary to the tribal system.

I am afraid you are wrong on both counts!

i doubt fata would, itself, ever want independence from pakistan.......where would they get thier electricity from, and their smuggled cars, and their budget?

they are playing it both ways.......they get everything from the state of pakistan, but don't want to be subordinate to it......fata cannot just declare war on someone, by itself, and then expect pakistan to protect it......

how many pakistanis have ever been to fata....hardly anyone.....so what is the point of keeping them with pakistan....

if pakistan threatens them with independence......they will come back......they know they will turn into afghanistan and nato will bomb the hell out of them, without regard of anything.......not to mention the fact they won't have electricity or phones etc.......

instead of bombing them, give them independence.....

the biggest defeat of afghans, would be pakistan itself......

pakistan, west of indus was afghanistan.........it was taken from afghans, by very young british soldiers......in fact, had they not done so, there may have been no pakistan.....or at best a small one......sind and west punjab......

the question however isn't of how much the afghans have been defeated historically........but what has happened lately........in present day warfare, it is nearly impossible for an organized army to defeat a civilian guirella force........

afghans did defeat the might soviet empire.......so one has to give them that credit.......and they are about to defeat nato......so defeating pakistan shouldn't be too hard.....

in any case, anyone sending in an army to kill guirellas, who have local support will lose........that is what happened in iraq.....and arabs, of the latest generation, don't have much of a fighting tradition....tiny israel has been beating up on all 23 of their nations for a long time......

ah! man!! the pushtoon problem eh??...well one thing that sets pushtoons apart from all the other ethnicities in pakistan is the fact that they actually do take their religion seriously.... I mean let it be pardah, roza, nimaz, beards, jihad etc... the pathans generally do believe in these rituals/duties and therefore perform them "religiously"... just like they took non-violence pretty seriously not that long ago...

So although I DO agree that "de-tribalization" is necessary for the evolution of pushtoon society... it wont necessarily be the cure for everthing..... the Swat insurgency was in settled areas and was carried out by the locals...and also the first thing that the taliban did when they were gaining influence in the tribal areas was to eliminate tribal maliks.... i.e. to replace the tribal system with shariah... which eventually would mean no difference between mehsud, wazir, mohmand, or afridi.... so if anything the tribal system itself is a victim of talibanisation...

But since any criticism of beduin-ism is most vociferously opposed by those who had missed the last 4 jumma prayers... i guess pushtoon bashing is the next best thing.

There is a serious refugee problem after the Pakistan army attacked Muslims in the tribal regions. Today we came to know that kids under age 7 had to walk for two days to reach parts of the outskrit of Bannu. It is bitter cold and many perished. We have to raise money to feed them. Pakistan army picked up where their ancestor British Indian Army left. Under this indiscriminate and out of proportional use of excessive force, it is most likey the war will gradually spread into inner cities of Pakistan. The rulers in Islamabad may not feel that comfy next winter. Already the ranks of Taliban in Afghanistan have swelled from few thousands to over 25000. And the US treasury is trouble. Most troops are stuck in Iraq and Al-Qaeda desperately wants John McCain to win so that the war mill continue. Low violence in Iraq is understandable. Though Arabs are used to live in humiliation, but this time it is to boost McCain popularity. Where will be Pakistan in next 15 years if there will be one left?

Kulharee,

Give them independence...... Do you think that they consider themselves actually bound by anything? It reminds me of an interview that I read somewhere. A western journalist was interviewing a bedu in sinai area after 1967 arab israel war. He asked him that who he thinks has a better claim on sinai area; Israel or Egypt. He was stunned with the answer as it was true to the tribal bedu values. He said sinai belong to bedus. I don't know why they are fighting over it.

Anyhow, we we disconnect them with us, it means to forego settle areas adjacent to that. If you go back to 1893 when Durand line accord was signed, these areas were included on Pakistan side of Durand line because of the fact that these tribes had their commercial links with cities on this side. These cities were peshawar, D.I.Khan and so on. Those tribes who used jalalabad and other cities on afghan side were kept on afghan side of durand line. These tribes cannot live without these links. Further, it would also aggrevate the pathan majority in NWFP main cities. Even karachi is a significant pashtun city, where pashtun population is perhaps equal to or more than peshawar.

If you wanna come up with something more constructive, be my guest. I am all ears.....

Why doesn’t Pakistan just give independence to FATA and let them have their own little charas republic. And if they attack a sovereign country as powerful as Pakistan, let them suffer the consequence. This bull has gone for too long.

Re: # 17

Fakir Ipi,

Yes I am punjabi and thats part of my identity, but I have lived all my life in NWFP with the exception of last few years, and almost 100% of my friends are either mehsoods or wazirs. So I do know what I am talking about....

Re: # 12

I think we are on the same wavelength with the exception that I am hopeful that there might be a way to integrate tribals in modern state concept.

Re: # 10

You might be right that Goras saved us from sikhs, but afghan invasions were treating the muslim punjabis the same way.

as far as remarks of fazl-e-hussain are concerned, Jinnah uttered them when he could not win political support from Punjab where sikh + muslim unionist party was ruling, and perhaps they were said by him in 1930's when he first came in punjab. This fact is mentioned either in Ayesha jalal's book or Stalnley wolport's book. you can check the context in which they were said.

But afterwards, Jinnah knew that he cannot win the all india muslim cause without Punjab and bengal with him. Thats why afterwards he had an agreement with main unionist party leader.

Re: # 8

Detriblize, Thats exactly what we have to work out. You are right that war is not a solution.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with the Good Major. The only thing that the tribals understand is force and massive, overwhelming force at that. If you actually read history, as the Good Major has but choses to ignore, you will realize that the British beat the living crap out of the tribals many, many times. The only problem was that they were never willing to pay the cost of a full campaign to pacify them. They saw the FATA concept, with a few permanent garrisons and the odd punitive expedition, as a reasonably cost effective solution.

If people like Curzon had their way, the Empire would have been extended to the Central Asian Emirates, who were begging to be included in the Raj, and Afghanistan would have, perforce, been pacified. Of course, it would still have been the Wild West compared to settled India but might not have been as reactionary as it is now since there would ahve been no Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the creation by the US-Saudi-Pakistan axis of the jihadist mindset.

Major Sahib, why do you conveniently ignore the fact that Hari Singh Nalwa completely pacified the Pathans for Ranjit Singh? Or that Avitabile ruled Peshawar with an iron fist and not a peep was heard from any Pathan? Of course, the fact that Avitabile handed out jagirs whose rent was payable in Afghan heads kept the barbarians quiet. Avitabile also, IIRC, used to be famous for hanging Afghans from Bala Hissar Fort before breakfast, in order to aid his digestion.

The British, after the glorious Afghan victory against Elphinstone, sacked and burnt Kabul. Similarly, Bobs Bahadur occupied Kabul again half a century later and the British again beat the Afghans in 1919; after winning the Third Afghan War just packed up and left Afghanistan. Similarly, the Russians never, at any time, had more than 100-125K combat troops in Afghanistan and, if they had put in 1/2 of what the US did in Vietnam, women would still be wearing skirts in Kabul.

Finally, the Taliban were defeated quite handily post-9-11. IF the US had put in the number of troops needed to hold Afghanistan AND chased Mullah Omar and Bin Laden into FATA and exterminated them like the vermin they are, the situation now might be a bit different.

However, just because the US Pentagon and White House are run by idiots doesn't make the tribals morally superior or in any way unbeatable. They have always been beaten very easily by most competent militaries.

Now, if you were to argue that the PakArmy is too incompetent to beat the tribals, I might not disagree with you. However, one good thing about sacking generals is that, given enough time, you just might get a competent one. Would Gen. Iftikhar Janjua have made as bad a hash of things as the current crop of generals have? You're a rissala wala; how about someone like Brig. Jaffar? Despite the fact that he was Guides and you're PAVO, you have to admit he was a competent soldier. We do have a few in the Army but the major problem with the it is that it really hasn't fought a war for a very long time; maybe never actually. A real war where the men in charge fire incompetent generals and let someone else have a go when the current GHQ warrior fizzles out. You've written about the Goof selection syndrome; my late father used to say that the Army cultivated a cult of mediocrity. Is it any surprise that they have made a hash of things in FATA? Maybe, if there are widespread sackings, a competent officer will be put in charge of operations and you'll see results there. One can only hope.

Re: # 15

Ironically, it is no one else but Punjab that will save the day. AS the coffins have started coming to Gujar Khan, Jehlum, and Attock, it will be the Punjab who will stop this namak haram fouj from killing more citizens. It is not 1971 and warfront is not 1000 miles away; the war is happening just at our backyard and even in our streets. Military days have been numbered. It cannot get legitimacy even through an election any more. Military command will have to make some very painful decisions in this year. In my opinion fouji junta will try to drag it as far as Novemeber when there will be a regime change in US. The outcome of that regime change will determine Afghanistan's and fouj'sfuture.

Re: # 16

"let punjab be a part of india.thats a good idea.100 marks"

Over my dead body. Just kidding.
But seriously, why would India want to do such a thing?
India has seen these west punjabis in action, they
do not need them again. For that matters Sindhis too.
India is doing fine without them, let it be.

Re: # 16

Hold on there - you keep your Poonjab and FATA and waht not... we indians don't want no part of this mess :)

I think the afgans would be happy - they have been asking for that land for a while anyway.

So win-win for everybody... Poonjabis have their land, pathans their... Sindhi can go their way... just give muhajir fools like salim a patch somewhere and everything will be just fine...

PAVO CAVALRY I LIKED UR FOLLOWING POST ON KHALID BHATTI THAT PUNJABI CHAUVINITS ARTICLE:--

the pashtuns of tribal areas are not what Mr Jinnah the founder of Pakistan called "hopeless Punjabis" .You Punjabis were 90 % of Punjab and the Sikhs were using your Badshahi Mosque of Lahore as a Horse Stable and ypu Punjabis had invented the shuttle cock burqa so that your fair sex are not abducted by the Sikhs at will.And the knight in shining armour General Sir Hugh Gough of Bengal Army of English East India Company saved u Punjabi Muslims from being deflowered by the Sikhs.

You Punjabi Muslims cannot be compared with the indomitable tribals.

You Punjabi Muslim troops fored even at the Holy Kabaa.

Azeem Hussain son of Sir Fazl i Hussian himself a Punjabi thus quoted Jinnah " THE PUNJAB IS A HOPELESS PLACE , I WILL NEVER VISIT IT AGAIN" . You Punjabi Lotus Eaters.

let FATA be independent and let punjab be a part of india.thats a good idea.100 marks.

...pakistan should let fata be a in independent country.......what exactly does pakistan get from fata.....other than trouble.......

fata gets everything from pakistan......electricity, funds, seats in the assembly, smuggled cars etc.....this is why fata never breaks away from pakistan, even though it keeps demanding its autonomy......

......so let fata be independent.....after that, fata and usa can fight each other to their hearts desire....fata can assist the taliban, and usa can bomb fata.....and pakistan doesn't have to assist or oppose either.....

Waziristan



Normally the article below by Major AH Amin (Pakistan Army, Retired) would be in ANALYSIS. But because of the importance of the topic, we're printing it here. For those unfamiliar with Major Amin: he writes for a Pakistani audience and readers may find some of his references a bit oblique. We've explained best we can. He is very sharp spoken, without dissimulation or politeness. His acerbic characterization of Pakistani intelligence is, alas, all too common among the world's intelligence agencies. As for his attack on Pakistan Army tactics, the same can be said of many armies we need not name.



Waziristan is the testing ground, the acid test of Pakistan Army's worth in the so- called war against terrorism.

What is the Pakistani intelligence ? An intelligence operative stated that they don't have the guts to go out of a fort of FC in Waziristan. They meekly step out of a Qila (fort) and stop some truck drivers and ask what's going on. From what they scramble all the guys from Military Intelligence, the ISI , the Corps Intelligence and the FC Intelligence sit down and make a generally similar report. The guy who compares all reports in GHQ jumps with joy when he sees all these reports and states that all reports can be cross checked and are correct. There is the Sab Accha mentality since Mughal times. Sab Accha means All Correct. So in the final summing it is gleefully concluded that the writ of the Pakistani Government is established in all parts of tribal areas! Glory be to Allah.

I recently met some mid-ranking and major-general level army officers and discussed Waziristan with them. We concluded:

Waziristan is a case of clash of interests among ambitious officers trying to get a good chit (report) and serious regimental officers who see soldiering as a way of life. The fast-track guys want to bash up some villages with artillery fire and do some dog catching for Americans and improve their career index called OEI.

The first major disaster was Lt.-Gen. Safdar, a Punjabi and a careerist. He wanted a fast-track approach for the problem, .His policy was bomb everyone, kill everyone and get the feathers in the cap for being a conqueror. This was counter-productive. The armed forces lost all credibility in this area. Safdar was finally packed off to the post of director logistics in the army Headquarters a post seen as waiting area for dumped generals.

Lieutenant General Hamid Khan, a Pashtun armored corps officer from 11 Cavalry was not effective. During his tenure the army was neither here nor there. He was serving for most of the time when the Waziristan accord had been signed.

The present corps commander Masud Aslam was a Kargil Warrior! (Major Amin is not being complimentary.) He again tried to introduce the Safdar policy with disastrous results.

One Major General level divisional commander stood out. Strangely it was a Shia officer, Major General Mir Haider. Although a Punjabi he understood the Pasthun psyche and did well. His modus operandi was psy war. Healing the tribal eg . Gifting copies of Holy Quran.

Another Major General Sahi was a failure. Again he was using the Safdar approach. Kill , batter , destroy and bomb. Sahi had close links with the Quisling PML (President Musharraf's political party: the writer believes Pakistan has sold out to the Americans) as his brother was a politician from that party. In words of a direct participant officer, he was also a total failure. He was finally packed off as commandant of infantry school. Another resting place of dumped generals. In his dining out he said that he had established writ of Pakistani Government in Waziristan and was corrected there and then by a serving army officer that this was a white lie. He was challenged that he could not drive with his GOC's flag from Miran Shah to Bannu even with an escort! He was infamous in the Frontier Corps Officers for trying to prod them to attack this village or that because he wanted to get a good chit from his bosses.

A serving army officer in that area compared Pakistan Army and the FC in Waziristan to a mouse running from point A to point B while he said that the tribals were the lazy cat watching this despicable mouse.

We further concluded:

The great danger is not Pakistan but the fall-out after its demise.

The great danger to the West is not the hopeless Pakistani state but non-state actors

The more Pakistani Don Quixotes are proved to be spineless clowns in Waziristan, the more dangerous the situation becomes.

Warfare has become cheap. It is easy to rock the boat and non-state actors are good at this.

The front is unclear. The distinction between friend and foe unclear.

My assessment is that if the Americans decide to knock out Pakistan , in strategic terms , there will be no resistance in Punjab and Sindh ,only the Pashtuns will be their adversaries and the settled area Pashtuns will be as hopeless as the Punjabis and Sindhis.

Pakistan's military and political establishment is simply hopeless. This theme is discussed in my article "5 minutes over Islamabad" (the article details how the US forced Pakistan to join it's side in the GWOT.) The Pakistani military junta has already lost all credibility with the Pakistani population and cannot control the situation.

Even the Americans will not achieve much if they enter Waziristan. The terrain is bad and Americans will be a good cause for Jihad. The solution is withdrawal from Waziristan and regime change in Pakistan. The Americans should let the hopeless Paki politicians do the dirty job of all this.

As an officer who served in Pakistan Army I would sum up the situation as following:

The Pakistani High Command a Punjabi-Mohajir (Mohajirs are Pakistans who migrated from India to the new country of Pakistan in/after 1947) team lacks the grey matter or resolve to deal with the tribals.

The troops they are commanding have lost faith in the cause they are fighting for. This is the worst thing for an army.

All said and done the tribals can be dealt politically. Any Pakistani officer who is posted as commander 11 Corps is a job seeker. He is trying to be a Napoleon and a Punjabi cannot be a Napoleon with a tribal!

The present Governor of NWFP Owais Ghani has already miserably failed in Baluchistan. He is regarded as a non-Pashtun as he is the hated Hindko Punjabi (we dont know what Hindko means; Hind generally refers to India) speaking from Peshawar city just like General Kakar, whose first cousin he is.

The whole situation requires a change in command in Pakistan from top to bottom.

Re: # 6 ISI is full of punjabis , check ur facts

WHY WAZIRISTAN CANNOT BE CONQUERED

A.H AMIN

FEBRUARY 20034

Those who know the Pathans and their history will know exactly what is happening in Waziristan today and which Lashkar is doing what and for what reason. The tribal Pathans have traditionally been supreme fighters who defied the Mughal occupiers, the Sikh occupiers, the British occupiers and now the latest occupiers, i.e. the US coalition chasing the Pathans and Muslims of various castes and creeds motivated by sheer ideology.

While the tribesmen know the art of resistance they also know the art of extortion from occupiers who try to buy them. Thus while the tribal Pathans killed many thousand occupiers in the British era they also managed to extort many subsidy payments from the British. Thus the same tribesmen who worked as contract laborers making roads for the British during day time, enjoyed sniping and shooting many British officers after sunset or during daytime when not on duty.

Thus when a lashkar of tribesmen appears to be on the payroll of political agents fed by US CIA dollars, all is not what it seems. In this case the tribals are performing an overt function of collaboration and a covert function of increasing their financial muscle which may be subsequently channelised into gun running, drugs or Jihad.

The tribesmen were not loyal subjects of the British. They spent their lives in sniping and ambushing the British and their mercenary Indian troops. Their life script was not to get a BA degree and become a minor civil servant or an ICS officer more loyal than the King. Nor did they get barristers degree and conduct profitable law practices in the courts of the British occupiers.

These men defied the British, killing over 10,000 British or Indian troops from 1849 to 1947, bleeding the British Empire white, forcing the British to maintain a division plus force in the Trans Indus tribal tract. These tribesmen gave sanctuary to Mughal Prince Ferozshah and to the followers of Syed Ahmad Shaheed of Rai Barelly at Malka and Ambela. These tribesmen greeted the British Indian army with fire while many today are famous as great Muslim leaders accepted knighthood and were ridiculed for doing so by Maulana Zafar Ali Khan of "Zamindar" fame.

The tribesmen acceded to Pakistan out of their free will. They were not conquered by the Pakistan Army. As a matter of fact no army including the Mughal, Sikh or British ever succeeded in conquering them. The tribal areas were occupied, overrun but never conquered. Their mosques were never used as stables and powder magazines as many in the tract East of Indus including the Badshahi Mosque of Lahore.

The tribesmen were not saved by the army of the English East India Company unlike the Muslims of Delhi or UP or the Muslims of Punjab and settled Pathan areas were from Hindu Marathas and Sikhs in 1803 and 1849. The tribesmen's mosques were not restored after humble petitioning to the English East India Company as was the case with Badshahi Mosque of Lahore in 1856.

The tribesmen were not willing mercenaries of the British and many Mehsuds, Wazirs and Afridis defected to the German lines in WW-I and returned to Tirah and Waziristan to wage Jihad against the British. The tribesmen cannot be compared with mercenary Muslim troops who opened fire on the Holy Ka'aba on British orders or who gunned down freedom fighters like an FF unit did at Jallianwalla Bagh in 1919.

The tribesmen acceded to Pakistan on the solemn assurance by Mr Jinnah that their customs and their Pathan way of life would not be interfered with. The tribesmen waged Pakistan's first successful Jihad in Kashmir in 1947-48. The tribesmen were used as cannon fodder during the Afghan War of 1979-89 when many generals became rich overnight and won cheap glory without exposing themselves to within 300 miles of hostile fire. The tribals braved salvoes of Soviet Katushkas and shrapnel of Hind Gun ships while sons of ex military tailors became billionaires.

The tribals were more Pan Islamist than Jamaluddin Afghani, more martial than any so called martial race of Indo Pak. More resolute than any general from Cape Komorin to Khunjerab Pass. The tribals are raised as snipers, not as sycophants, their life script is not to please 15 different seniors and get a good ACR, practicing sycophancy with civilian prime ministers and launching coups without a shot being fired against unarmed civilian heads of state.

What is happening in the tribal areas is not in Pakistan's national interests. The venom which has been forced into the tribal Pathan's soul is counterproductive for Pakistan in the long run.

The tribal areas has seen many occupiers. They are classic practitioners of Liddell Harts strategy of indirect approach. Their guerrilla tactics are far more subtle than that of Mao, Ho Chi Minh or Che Guevara. They apply Mao without knowing what he had written. They apply Sandino's Nicaraguan tactics which brought US Marines to grief without ever having heard of him. They are warriors par excellence.

For each militant handed over the tribals gain goodwill from greedy political agents who they deceive and thus succeed in sheltering 50 militants. There is a method in the apparent outward collaboration of the tribals. They cannot be overawed by a telephone call or bought by a million dollar retainer.

No cadet school or college can tame the tribals for whom music is the whistling bullet and its ricochet in the rocky gorges of Waziristan. The tribals don't need a federal government to make money. Their very location is an asset.

Beware of despising the tribals. They brought both Muslim and non Muslim Emperors to grief whether it was Jahangir, Shah Jahan, Aurangzeb, Ranjit Singh or the British king.

These are not the men who would sell their mother for a thousand dollars as some US senator said about some Pakistani leaders. These leaders may be found in Dera Ghazi Khan or somewhere East of the tribal areas. The tribals are sons of their fathers and there is no confusion about their paternity.

A man who does not know the tribal Pathan way of life is not competent to judge the subtleties of their character. It appears that the same mistake is being made today in the highest echelons of Pakistan's present military usurpers.

The tribals have been living in that area and following their primitive traditions for centrues... The world just passes them by, there was hardly any problem

But then you pakis started using and abusing them for your own "strategic" wet dreams... you pumped money and weapons and used them as cannon fodder... now these primitves have tasted blood and they ain't going back...

you can't really de-tribalize them...

the pashtuns of tribal areas are not what Mr Jinnah the founder of Pakistan called "hopeless Punjabis" .You Punjabis were 90 % of Punjab and the Sikhs were using your Badshahi Mosque of Lahore as a Horse Stable and ypu Punjabis had invented the shuttle cock burqa so that your fair sex are not abducted by the Sikhs at will.And the knight in shining armour General Sir Hugh Gough of Bengal Army of English East India Company saved u Punjabi Muslims from being deflowered by the Sikhs.

You Punjabi Muslims cannot be compared with the indomitable tribals.

You Punjabi Muslim troops fored even at the Holy Kabaa.

Azeem Hussain son of Sir Fazl i Hussian himself a Punjabi thus quoted Jinnah " THE PUNJAB IS A HOPELESS PLACE , I WILL NEVER VISIT IT AGAIN" . You Punjabi Lotus Eaters.

Just read it. More later

I have been reading this word "Detribalize" in most of the comments but how would you do that? I cannot see that happening. It's almost impossible.

Secondly, War isn't the solution of this problem. Go through their history and you'll get the answer.

Thankyou.

FATA or Pakistan?

That could become the choice!

yes IF is a dangerous word. However, i would like you to note the following

(a) ISI has links with the pushtoons
(b) ISI created LeJ which split and is suposed to have no connections with the creator now. However, it is said that the ISI still controls these guys. The factions of the LeJ are allied with the pushtoons jihadis but controlled by the ISI.

So that IF used by me was just a contrieved thing - since the ISI is still controlling the insurgency (at some leve) or is learning to control the whole movement through the factions it controls. This is already happening, bhayya.

This greater Afghanistan turning into greater pakistan can happen in a jiffy without much effort. And that might be what the elite of the pakistan's establishment want - surreptitious yes, so what if it kills a few thousand pakistanis along the way - it will called collateral damage!

And it would not be the west that they want - but to control what the west wants - oil and gas from CARs and be the biggest, baddest member of the OIC !

Dash sahib,

(Maybe a great Afghanistan is not a bad idea (from a Pakistan POV) since IF the inteligent Punjabis, Muhajirs, Sindhis etc learn to control the Pushtoons, they will have a very nice greater pakistan with its strategic depth. )

IF is a very dangerous word, sahib, I hope you will appreciate that.

(Then whither India? )

I doubt if the Pushtoons wud be satisfied with piffling India as the intended prize. If India was enuff for them the Tali-Paki alliance in 1995-2001 wud have already concentrated on that and forgotten all about everything else. No sir, they wud be looking for something for substantial, which can only be the West. And the West wont play possum.

Regards

majumdar bhayya, forget KY jelly that shoul dbe the last thing they have to worry about.

Pushtoon hegemony (as it was many many moons ago(as Bhatti says in his article)) would mean, the Poonjanbis and Mujahirs would staring at the very thing they were running from "hegemony". In case it would be true hegemony and not a perceived thing.

Maybe a great Afghanistan is not a bad idea (from a Pakistan POV) since ifthe inteligent Punjabis, Muhajirs, Sindhis etc learn to control the Pushtoons, they will have a very nice greater pakistan with its strategic depth. Then whither India? Could this be the thinking of the elite within establishment - create chaos, get greater afghanistan, and then turn tables around!

Bhatti sahib,

Nice write-up, Pak is indeed caught between a rock and a hard place.

Seems like:

Pushtoons wont give up jihad or tribalism.
USA wudn't allow Pushtoons to do a jihad or allow Pak to turn a blind eye to Pushtoons jihadi activity.
If Pak refuses to comply USA does some serious arm-twisting for which the generals have no appetite.
But if it whips up military activity against Pushtoons, large chunks of the army will resist . And Pak opens itself upto retaliation by both armed militancy in NWFP/FATA and by terrorist attacks in the settled regions.

Pakistan has to detribalise Pushtoons for its as well as its Pushto speaking citizens long-term well-being but in doing so it opens itself to tuff retaliation.

Tuff choice. Maybe it wasn't that bad that NWFP did not accede to India.

Dash,

(or else the Sindhis and the Punjabis have to accept Pushtoon hegemony over them)

In which case young Sindi and Punjoo boys may as well start carrying KY Jelly/Vaseline with them.

Regards

Pakistan has no choice but to detribalise these guys. Given safe haven to foreign terrorists is not an internal matter of the pushtoons - but an interference in the Foreign Affairs of the antion. If they gave refuge to say a Poonjabi Jihadi, then its an internal matter.

Unless they are detribalised Pakistan is going to have a repeat of this or else the Sindhis and the Punjabis have to accept Pushtoon hegemony over them (as before - you alluded to it in tyour article)- and viola you have Greater Afghanistan!

The choice is pretty stark at this juncture!

Khalid Saab,

Fairly good assessment of the situation, but sadly no one who matters is listening.

The puishtoons with their tribal ways can no longer survive, simply because it is no longer a tribal simple and even self sustaining, and green way of life. The al quida has changed all that, and they have an agenda to operate out of the so called idylic tribal platform.

The same was told about the invasion of afghanistan, but teh B52s moved the valient afghan fighters inside the borders of pakistan.

You are correct, if the tribals cannot live in the mountains, they will come to the city, and they are circling Islamabad.

There is only one simple option for pakistan, the north korean model and teh west and the nato will leave pakistan alone to sort out the mess on the terms of teh pakistanis.

As long as the bomb is there, others will meddle, and if required will take the bombs away.

All your interpretation and review of a pakistani-islamic solution is irrelevant as long as the bomb is there.

So take care in your forth coming article, do not leave the bomb alone.