Taliban, Pashtoons and Pakistan

#15 Posted by bulleya on January 31, 2008 8:20:00 am


what exactly does pakistan get from fata


you get afghan looks, which, according to you, are necessary for an IT company to succeed.

think about it..without fata, you'll be without 2 of the 3 ingredients you said an IT company needs to succeed: afghan looks, paki management and indian something..

Re: # 21 Fuzair
Very prescient analysis, especially the reference to Lord Curzon’s ‘forward policy’. Most of the ignoramuses on Chowk have no idea what you were referring to.

By ‘liberating’ FATA, one aspect of Curzon’s policy, i.e. creating a buffer zone between the British Empire and Czarist Russia through a weak Afghanistan will come into effect – this time between the Taliban anarchists and India. The party responsible for maintaining peace in the buffer will be Pakistan, but with no where near the resources that the British Empire had – a daunting prospect for Pakistan, but one that should be pleasing to the mandarins of South Block. There is a big risk in all this though – Pakistan may not be equal to the task, and that might still spell trouble for India.

Die-hard Pakistan ideologues would do well to reassess the rationale for the creation of Pakistan in the first place and absorb the gradual withering of the Pakistan state in the face of unbearable security obligations.

BTW, who were you referring to as ‘Major’? Bulleya? I thought he got out as a Captain. He has the Chowk honorific title ‘Field Marshall’ actually.

Pew,

Major Sahib is PAVOCavalry, who left the Army in 1993 as a Major. Don't know if he was superceded or left voluntarily, I suspect the latter as he was probably too junior to be superceded by a promotion board (maybe he didn't get Staff College, which would have been the kiss of death for his career--if he hadn't already sabotaged it himself!). PAVO is Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry, 11 FF, btw; a fine old namak halal colonial regiment that delighted in keeping the Afghan scum out of the King Emperor's lands.

Quite ironic given the Good Major's current views! ;-)

Buleya is a FM (Honorary) Retd. Captain, but sometimes I wonder about this since he is quite elusive about his actual service.

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HP,

Hamida Khoro said, almost thirty years ago, that the real tragedy of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was that we had just started trying to civilize our Pathans when all those Afghan barbarians poured into Pakistan and undid all the work.

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Romair,

Come on, if you have any sort of a military background at all, you know that the Mujahideen did not defeat the Soviet Union; the Soviet Union decided to leave. They were not pursued out of Afghanistan, leaving hundreds and thousands of dead soldiers littering the trail behind them. Remember how contemptously Gen. Lebed, the last Soviet Commander, walked over the bridge into Tajikistan? He walked over as teh last man across, emphatically underscoring that the Soviets were leaving of their own accord and were not being chased out.

Whoops, sorry; last Soviet Commander was not Lebed but Gromov; who still walked over the bridge into Tajikistan very slowly and taking his time; demonstrating to the world that the Soviets were not run out of Afghanistan.

Fuzair, Pavo's point holds (and doesn't contradict your view) if we concede that most non-tribals are not the victors you described. Most indeed are, in your words, 'idiots' who (1) do not understand what precisely they must do to gain victory over the tribals, and (2) even if they do understand that, don't have the 'moral courage' or fibre to take those steps. (What the US can do and what the US is able to do for a long-enough period of time are two entirely different things.)

Pakistani army, of course, fully knows and should have no 'moral problem.' But I doubt it has the ability or the desire to fight tribal Pakistani citizens long and hard enough.

So in effect, tribal Pakistanis are invincible, unless Pakistani army suddenly surprises us all.

(I hope it doesn't. I find liberal arguments against tribal Pakistanis to be morally repugnant, but that is just me, on a subjective level alone.)

HP

its not the strokes of a few pens but targeted assassinations of some of the most powerful men in waziristan... the response so far has been.. well.. nothing....

First you say The Taliban on a very limited scale might have hurt the political clout of the Khans and maliks but the Khans and the Malik would regain that influence as the Taliban power starts to wane,

and then you say In fact, shariah does no such thing. Shariah is reaffirmation and the reestablishment of the tribal system. It is not contrary to the tribal system.

If the taliban's power wanes then how is that a reaffirmation of shariah? OR why would the maliks be resisting if shariah allows them to keep their current power structure!?

The difference between shariah and the tribal system is that shariah erodes all ethnic identities. From a tribe you go on to become part of a bigger brotherhood. This means that a wazir qazi can decide if the hands of a mohmand theif be chopped off or not. The tribal malik has no role in that, the jirga is simply replaced by Islamic courts.

This is the mistake that you southerners make while assessing pakhtoons. This current wave of islamic extremism is in NO WAY is a reflection of the pushtoon way of life or of pushtoon identity.

In terms of conservative norms Peshawar in the 70s and 80s was not that different from Lahore at that time. Look at the situation now. The difference is because of the huge amount of money pumped in this region to brain wash our masses, if there were that many madrassahs in punjab or sindh, i assure you things would have been a lot more different down south as well.

This is the price that Pakhtoons are paying for that elusive "strategic depth", a policy that was carried out in the name of Pakistan's national interest, the last thing we need is for the rest of the country to refer to us as some sub-human beings who are not capable of acting normal. This is plain racism, and I do hope you realize that.

Dear Prince Albert Victor's Own,

Jinnah had called Punjab a hopeless place (in 1936??) because the Unionist Party of Sir Fazli-hussain and Sir Sikandar Hayat after him kept the Nationalists and All India politicians out of Punjab by fiercely insisting on regional particularism. However you may appreciate that Lahore was very much part of Punjab on 23rd March, 1940.

However I generally agree with your view that Tribal areas should not be tampered with. This current policy of tribal invasions has undone all the good done through "Operation Curzon" in 1947.

Re: # 29

Adam,

That is an excellent post.

Re: # 15

Romair mian,

That is a very sad and unfortunate comment. FATA has given Pakistan a lot more than you think. They were for the longest time, Pakistan's greatest cheerleaders and supporters... who was the first one in Kashmir? Who was the first one in Afghanistan?

By blindly supporting the US strategy in the tribal areas, we have compromised our own internal security as well as the war on terror. I am afraid Pakistan and the US both are going to lose this war simply because of the ill-advised and extremely stupid invasion of the tribal areas.

As for tribal values etc... who died and gave us the right to "civilize" anyone? Let them evolve at their own pace.

31,

Romair, please review the extent of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Empire.

Your comments are historically inaccurate as usual.

Manto mian,

(They were for the longest time, Pakistan's greatest cheerleaders and supporters... who was the first one in Kashmir? Who was the first one in Afghanistan?)

Are you saying that you support Pakistan's expansionist strategies in J&K and A'stan and the means (Talibani-jihadi) to achieve them?

(I am afraid Pakistan and the US both are going to lose this war)

I dont think so, the Pak-US alliance will substantially decimate the Paki Talibs (if the alliance wants to that is). But Pakistan is going to pay a huge price.

(However I generally agree with your view that Tribal areas should not be tampered with. )

Maybe I got you wrong but I thot you were a strong opponent of the Paki Talibs.

Regards

majumdar,

I have interacted with a lot of people from the tribal areas and they are not taliban. Conservative yes but not taliban. Nothing is black and white. Operation Curzon was a masterstroke of diplomacy the like of which Pakistan has not seen since. Unfortunately the advantages were squandered by us through this invasion.

The question was never of Pakistani expansionism but of Soviet and Indian designs. Pushtuns saved the world from Soviet expansionism. In Kashmir, the freedom fighters are fighting a bellum justum.

Tribal people are much more honorable, civilized, passionate and democratic than hypocrites...

Hypocrites must leave them alone...

They are also better off than most of the lost stinky alcoholics of this board...

If we respect ourselves...then we have to respect tribal people as well ...and if we respect our human rights and freedom..then we have to respect their choices as well...

So no need to make them "civilized" ...

Manto mian,

(The question was never of Pakistani expansionism but of Soviet and Indian designs. Pushtuns saved the world from Soviet expansionism.)

Soviet expansionism died in 1990. So what was Pakistan doing creating the Talibs in 1995 under BB's govt?

(In Kashmir, the freedom fighters are fighting a bellum justum.)

The Kashmiris are already a free people, they have the right to elect their own state govt and the national govt. In any case, there is no point in Pakistan fighting for Kashmiris right to self-determination unless it gives the same to its own people.

Regards

#46 Posted by majumdar

Yasser/Majumdar bhai,

The Kashmiris are already a free people, they have the right to elect their own state govt and the national govt.

And the fact is that candidates standing in the local elections in "Azad" Kashmir are actually required to sign an undertaking promising their full support to the accession of AJK to Pakistan. Many local politicians, prominent among them Amanullah Khan one of the founders of the JKLF were not allowed to contest because they refused to sign this undertaking.

How does one reconcile this fact with Pakistan's demand that Kashmiris be given the right to self-determination?

#38 Posted by adamkhan

“If the taliban's power wanes then how is that a reaffirmation of shariah? OR why would the maliks be resisting if shariah allows them to keep their current power structure!?”

Khan sahib.
You are commenting on two different statements in two different paras. In the first para I mentioned that Taliban might have hurt the political clout and the next para read as,” One more thing the shariah does not remove mehsud, wazir, mohmand from peoples’ minds overnight. In fact, shariah does no such thing. Shariah is reaffirmation and the reestablishment of the tribal system. It is not contrary to the tribal system.”

And both statements are correct! Taliban cannot end the tribal system because by implementing shariah they are actually reaffirming the tribal system so all the stories about Taliban ending the Tribal system are bogus! I hope you can see the differences in two statements and then their correlation. As the Taliban power recedes, the Shariah too would go away but the tribal system will stay!

” The difference between shariah and the tribal system is that shariah erodes all ethnic identities. From a tribe you go on to become part of a bigger brotherhood.”

Khan Sahib this is just hogwash and people are blinded by the fairytale. The communists and socialist also made claims of the equality of human. There is nothing on this earth at least in the foreseeable future that could erode all the ethnic identities. Even during the so called Islamic era, the ethnic identities were solidified and not eroded!

As long as the current social structure exists in FATA, tribal identities will remain. The changes to the social system come via the economic changes and migration of people for economic activities. You put factories in FATA, industrialize FATA, people from the warring tribes would cease fighting and get involved in some legitimate economic activity and they will forget the tribal differences and work in the factories together.

Since no one is going to put any money for factories down in FATA, for another century or so, the area will remain the way it is now. Shariah will actually further divide the people over petty religious differences and the mosques will become center of cultural and political skirmishes between the tribes.

The Taliban and the people who support them are driving people to the inhuman activities and their actions will impact the whole Pushtoon nation and yes, at that time you should really be ready to hear the noises about the subhuman activities of the tribes. These activities will extend to the settled areas, if the FATA is allowed to merge with the settled areas.

Truth is not easy to absorb when you first hear it. If necessary changes are not made in the tribal areas, the sounds of subhuman will only increase in intensity.

If people like you support the Shariah and the further isolation of the tribes along the religious lines then I am afraid the worst elements of the tribal society will control the people and every thing that I wrote in my post #32 will happen.

Lastly, The Taliban or the tribes have no chance in the world to win this war. They will lose because they are fighting against the history, they are fighting against the progress and they are fighting for the medieval social values.

One more thing, only the western educated people have the ability to run the modern states. When barely educated try to run the country, they end up giving their independence and their resources to others fairly quickly. The Taliban could not run Afghanistan. The Pakistani Taliban and the Madrassah educated maulvi and their fellow traveler Jihadi will not be able to run the Tribal areas too.