Men's Liberation...Better Late Than Never

Re: # 23

parthaap

Well done dear! Position in Pakistan is not very different either. Here also it is husband's duty to maintain his family whereas legally wife is not obliged to do any thing. So much so that according to some feminists it is the duty of the husband to cook food even for his wife.

Tuf he in 'Bharhoon' par!

What a pity that husbands are often sent to jail by the courts for non-payment of maintenance even to rebellious wives.

In public transport women become ladies with sole right on any seat and men remain just 'sawaaries' to be shoved around whenever a 'lady' needs a seat.

In fact the very morality here is gender biased which holds men as potential sex-abusers and even rapists and the women 'Satti saawitries' to be respected as honorable ladies.

The key thing that becomes obvious in this budget, is the Emergence of the 'anti- male' in Indian Politics

Enhanced tax slabs for females is not in consonance with the fact that more females ( 63% ) appointed in BPOs are females. 80% of the appointees to all jobs in the EU since 2000 are female! On top of the difficulty in finding a job in the 21st century, the male uses the money for the family, unlike the female whose income is 'additional'.

There is now 50% discount for females above 60 on trains! Are they all somehow disabled in some sort of way by being a female? Do old males somehow have to have 'more' disability to qualify as 'equal to a just-as-old female'? Internationally, males die younger too. And I have nt heard of absurd measures like these internationally.

That Renuka discussed the budget with the Finance Minister before its finalisation, while other cabinet colleagues could not, only shows the 'woman' power that she wields ( probably encouraged by Sonia, herself a feminist ), in the Union Cabinet.

This comes on top of the Congressi feminist laws against Indian sons-in-law!
While all Indian parties are competing for female votes, the ones to suffer their loss of dignity, all in the guise of 'equality', will be males.


Males need to be aware of this casteism in the making. Unless they group together for their own sake, they can expect to be run all over.

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Re: # 28

But most authentic of the translations, one by Pickthall, says:

"As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them." (Sura 4, verse 34 of Quranul Hakeem)

Acrding to Wikipedia the 'scourge' means:

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Scourge (disambiguation).

A scourge (from Italian scoriada, from Latin excoriare = "to flay" and corium = "skin") is a whip or lash, especially a multi-thong type used to inflict severe corporal punishment or self-mortification on the back"

Mind also, this punishment is meant if there is a fear only of rebellion on her part and not an actual rebellion and it is a positive order,
a 'farz' to be complied with by the husband while the actual rebellion is to be reported to the court.

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neembu,

perhaps you can stop inventing idiotic assertions. Could you kindly show exactly where I made what statements?

until then, please refrain from showing your bateesi or your khokla khopRDa :).

Thank you kindly. Now please stop hyperventilating.

Re: # 37

in other words, you are too embarrassed to admit that you were corrected for your eggregious stereotype. perhaps dr. sohail can delineate this aspect of male pathology-the inability to admit one is wrong.

err, friendship outside wedding? sounds like one of those Shahruk Khan's Movies!

how to make your wife happy? (my version)
a) acknowledging her work, beauty -
b) socializing with her ( going to her-side of relatives)
c) giving her expensive gifts ( make sure it's gold - since she keeps gold with her - and it's a good investment too - the money doubles in years plus you can always use wife's gift if (godforbids) in financial problems)

Ahem Ahem (I mean quack quack)

Any of you modern liberals males who's looking for "friendships outside marriage" for their wives or females who are looking for themselves should post the chick's picture here pronto.


["#15 Posted by drsohail on February 28, 2008 10:00:38 am

how to maintain a healthy and enjoybale relationship. one of these days i am planning to write an article titled
when monogamy becomes monotony
all i can say is that those couples last longer and happier who
....maintain friendships outside marriage"]

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Re: # 35

Excuse me-but you made claims in your last post. Kindly review these claims in light of the Catal Huyuk settlements, ukp.

Re: # 33

unfortunately, the so-called professor has made up assertions from my comments and asked me to defend them.

This is ridiculous :) I cannot defend stupid assertions made by neembu. In fact, it is my aim to dissolve the jahilliya in her :D

Re: # 27

"There were female prophets, but they were silenced by the male dominated societies."

Quote which societies silenced God's women prophets?

To reiterate:

The "interactor" "Hurricane" has been challenged on his stupid and ill informed notion that female deities had not existed in the Near East and in researching the Catal Huyuk settlements, will be shown for the charlatan he is. Thank you.

Re: # 27

Actually, it might serve your own clearly considerable educational background (*) to learn about the Catal Huyuk settlements. Pray tell google them and report back to us their significance in the Near East, thanks!

Re: # 27,

hurricane

It is highly suggestive and ridiculous to say that it is only feminists who are promoting 'peace'. Why do you think all other points of view are not worthy?

This attitude has a lot in common with suppression, and inability to understand, anti-religious views.

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#27 Posted by hurricane,

hurricane, there indeed was a female prophetess in Abu Bakr's time. The good Dr doesn't remember his own prophetess :)

Her name was Sajja and she had plenty of following! (recommended reference: google.com)

Re: # 22

Some translations say 'beat them (very lightly)', while some say this is symbolic!

What it does not mean is beating the hell out of a woman. But then, it all depends on what limits she has crossed.

dear dr. sohail,

damn chowk ate my post.

I wrote a treatise on the power struggle between men and women and the dethroning of women from leadership to subjugation as humans moved from hunter gatherer societies and into agricultural and land owning societies. It was my aim to educate Neembu on these important topics.

But chowk had other thoughts and ate my post :(

So to comment on your comment: you would be surprised how much ridicule one has to go through to promote peace and love. Oh wait, actually you go through the same thing when you post your articles. :)

So why were there no female prophets?

There were female prophets, but they were silenced by the male dominated societies. However, if you look at the sufi tradition, one of the most revered teachers was Rabia.

Re: # 25
dear hurricane...i did not fully understand when you talked about half truth.
i liked when you talked about brotherhood and sisterhood between people from different religions and cultures. i call human beings children of mother earth. why do you think there were never any female prophets?
welcome back...sohail

here is the thread. Chowk doesn't let me embed urls in comments :(

http://chowk.com/unplugged/t/50342

dr. sohail,

kithaan? Thinkingstorm at your service!

Very valuable article. Unfortunately the message got lost in Ben and Wanda's story. I couldn't stop thinking what a tool that guy was. I mean, how come this woman stayed with him? This is Canada after all. Maybe she came from an abusive family too.

Anyhow, today was a very emotionally charged day as you can see from this thread I started

Re: # 17

Dear Dr sahib,

As a psychologist, I have read your articles and found many of them readable. I would wish you would stick to the subject of your specialisation, since your opinions there would be weighty. Unfortunately, your subject is one of specialisation and cannot be generalised to society. That would be intruding into the sphere of a sociologist.

There are many 'male feminists' who think that theirs is the duty to defend extremist feminism. This, however, is unfortunate. Males have always been known for their pampering of females. Witness our very own Taj Mahal. There are, in fact, males who are actually feminists full time, thinking they are morally superior since it is their job to protect the 'weaker' of the species.

In America, men are forced to pay around 40% of their income to ex-wives, regardless of wrongdoing on the woman's parts (often called "no-fault" alimony). She could commit adultery and beat her husband or kids, and none of it will influence the court's decision.

More shockingly still, a woman can simply accuse her husband of sexual or physical abuse (or simply express a fear of it) and instantly win a restraining order forcing him away from his home and children, without so much as a hearing. In fact, most divorce lawyers will advise a woman to do this, and those who do not can be sued for legal malpractice.

And once she has the kids, the family court will be loath to enforce visitation rights for the father.

More than 50% of all marriages in the U.S. result in divorce -- men's rights are being increasingly overlooked to the benefit of women. Consider this: statistically, the first person to file for divorce usually wins. While 70% of all divorces are initiated by women, 85 to 90% of custody awards go to the women.

While hard-core feminism has grown by leaps and bounds, 'masculinism' is pretty much unheard off. Feminist magazines, gyms, even buses! To understand why Feminism has developed 'naturally' while 'Masculinism' has not, one needs to understand early society. While the females grouped with other females and cooked and looked after the kids together, the men went out to hunt, competing for food, and learning to mistrust other males.

Why is it women are more eager to break out of the marriage? Is it because of the opportunity it gives her to repair her 'ego'? Or the ample opportunities for 'maintainence' and the usage of law to break her spouse financially? Or simply because in our society, the male does the competitive courting and all she has to do is to lie back and wait for the next one to come along?

Here is the interact which I had recorded on another article.

"Both Quran (See verse 34 of Sura 4) and Manu Samriti (An important Hindu Scripture) are unanimous in that the women, especially those given in your charge as wives, need to be beaten (punished physically) even if you only fear them to be rebellious. This being in compliance of a clear order (Nas) in Quran it cannot be termed as ‘violence’. My question is what should one (If he is a husband and not a pimp) do if his wife behaves disobediently to him but is enjoyable to others so as to turn one’s house into a free brothel?"

This not a religious edict but a Qurani 'hikmat'. Marriage is an institution which can be controlled by the husband only and so some coercive powers are allowed to him to avoid the rebellious woman's case being referred to the village panchayat where she may be punished by 'karo-kari'.

Excuse me Dr it seems to be just a piece of self-promotion by a professional psycho... He could not make a difference between the woman as such and her various relationships in the family or society at large. The woman as such or the liberated one is found only in the Hira Mandi where the men become just pimps and clients, called 'saaoo'. There is no place for the men to feel liberated anywhere from the machinations of the woman as such.

I may tell you that what you claim to have done by your psychotherapy one of my aunts could do better with her 'Tahviz, Ganda' at no or a nominal cost.

Re: # 19
dear tahir...we are all work in progress...living and learning and growing every day...sohail

Re: # 16
What a wonderful surprise doctor sahib! Just when I'd sent off #18, I saw your #16. Life can be like that...

CHOWK is just the right place for patients, but there's a snag: they'll pay you not in Canadian Dollars but with unkind cuts at--well, never mind their choice of bodily locations.

Until a saner day, it is good-bye....

Re: #15

"when monogamy becomes monotony". All i can say is that those couples last longer and happier who:
1)....maintain friendships outside marriage
2)...keep their marriage romantic by regular dates
3)...do not succumb to the institution of marriage and family....but it is possible if both parties want it"

Vow! I can't wait to read this in full! I hope I'm wrong about you (I seldom am, by the way). Have you tried all of the above on yourslef doctor sahib now that you're bent upon unleashing the virus on the sleepy CHOWKies?

My advice (free of charge, by the way): DON'T DO THIS....

Now if you'd excuse me, I must hurry and take a solo vacation to do my own THANG, like they do there to 'get away from one another'.

Peace on the rocks.

PS: I hope I'm wrong about you...(but then again, I seldom am)

Re: # 11
dear parthaab...i think we need to separate
personal discrimination
from
systemic discrimination
i see some men in my practice who are abused by their wives and need help but when it coms to systemic discrimination most systems//legal...religious...cultural made by men are still patriarchal. we need systems and traditions that provide justice, equal rights and privileges to all human beings and do not discriminate based on gender, class, religion, sexual orientation, langiage and nationality...sincerely sohail

Re: # 8
dear tahir...let us liberate ourselves from resident demons...what a wonderful line and it applies to all people religious...spiritual....secular
this is what i try to help my patients in my practice...sincerely sohail

Re: # 6
dear IB...you raised a very critical question...how to maintain a healthy and enjoybale relationship. one of these days i am planning to write an article titled
when monogamy becomes monotony
to answer your question in a few words all i can say is that those couples last longer and happier who
...stay creative in their personal lives
....maintain friendships outside marriage
...keep their marriage romantic by regular dates
...do not succumb to the institution of marriage and family and can maintain a personal touch with a touch of humour
it is hard but it is possible if both parties want it
sincerely sohail

Re: # 5
dear neembu...i apologize for not answering you earlier. i got busy in my clinic. i agree with you that unhealthy traditions are maintained through
culture
religion
and
law
those traditions are hard to break and we need to raise social consciousness to see the systemic factors that contribute to inequality...i really appreciate your comments
sincerely sohail

That feminist scoundrel, minister Renuka is at it again!

She has always been anti-MALE (!) in her views and has made her obnoxious views against son-in-laws' in the country pretty obvious to all with anti-son-in-law laws. She now wants to punish male clients instead of female prostitutes.

So now, females who provoke males into having sex are no more at fault. While males who give in to sexual desires will 'pay' with jail! Meaning more police and judicial harassment.

To these extremists, females provoking males to have sex is 'natural', and males accepting such advances is 'unnatural'!

While professional prostitutes and pimps will go scotfree, those who belong to society, doing other respectable jobs will be punished, only because of their gender.

Will smugglers, drug peddlers and VCD manufacturers go scot free, now on, while buyers of their products will be punished?

This feminist-vadi government has gone way too far in its anti-MALE ideology and needs to stop NOW!

http://wordpress.com/tag/renuka-chaudhary/

http://feminazisofindia.wo rdpress.com/2007/09/18/renuka-chowdhury-the-champion-of-cat-fights/

Re: # 11

this is as laughable as ranger's grievances against dalit exam candidates who scored higher than him and were accepted into post grad programs.

It is a gross, incredibly base act to imply that violence caused to men by women is equal to the violence caused to men by women. As with any institution, each charge needs to be investigated. But only a total faakir would claim that laws that protect women against dometic violence are illegal and used for illegal purposes.

When a person who has NOT committed any crime, begins to fear punishment under the provisions of a law, it is not a law anymore - it is state sponsored terrorism. www.498a.org

Violence against females is overreported. A CDC study showed that women were the perpetrators in 70% of nonreciprocal violence. Women are also just as likely to initiate reciprocal violence.

It is the portrayal of males on media such as TV serials, that has led to stereotyping of males as dirty, double speaking, double crossing, money and sex hungry beasts, that has led to such over-hyped respectability for womens 'movements' in India.

Womens 'lib' is one thing. But outright OBLITERATING mens rights through gender-biased laws is totally another.

While the first is all very well and gels with the natural hysteria and female inferiority complex, the other is about a scumbag, minister Renuka, victimising all males to avenge for her OWN divorce as well as her daughters.

Asking for equal rights for males is NOT the same as asking that females be DENIED their rights.

The Indian male still thinks of sex in terms of romance and lust. He is still in the days of Dharmendra, while the female has moved on to higher 'standards' and western 'styles'.

It reminds me of Jaws, where the innocent play on the shallow waters, not realising the dangers the lurks closeby. Indian males are oblivious to the dangers of 'life after lust'.

Males have always been known for their pampering of females. Witness our very own Taj Mahal. There are, in fact, males who are actually feminists full time, thinking they are morally superior since it is their job to protect the 'weaker' of the species.

In those days, the female got lighter work at home, while the male slogged it out throughout the day to protect his 'family'. And household 'chores' that feminists scream about, were not comparitively as 'hard' as what they appear to be today. Todays feminist ego today will not even let her allow a male to say he 'looks after' his family!

These days however, when BPO jobs have become the easier work, it is still the females who get preference there. If you are at an interview and the interviewer is male, it is the female who gets preference. God save you even if it is a female interviewer! Either way you are screwed! Nothing has changed, you might say. The males still do the dangerous physical, non-rewarding jobs - like guarding the frontlines.

What has changed however, is that, with females getting more opportunities, they are walking out of marriages, as seen in the no-fault divorce states in the USA where 73% of divorces are female-initiated, even without any financial incentive! Blaming, like is their second nature, their spouses. And scorned scumbags like minister Renuka are seeing to it that young males get abused legally too. Feminism is not the cause, but certainly a catalyst to the increasing divorce rates. Financial incentives in the form of 'maintainence' makes you think that it is a MIRACLE that females want to stay within marriages if at all - as a status symbol, you might say!

Indian males are not immune from how feminism is, and will, change society. Getting laid is NO big deal. And so is divorce. Not that marriage is an ideal solution. It was invented by religion and tradition and may die a natural death. But what revolts is the leverage that females seek to have at divorce. It is only when the law hits innocent people like you that you will wake up to the realities.

However, with stats such as these : divorce rates set to touch 40% ( current Mumbai levels ) at LEAST ( meaning 40% of females leading unattached, but 'maintained' lives ) and with 63% BPO employees working late night shifts being FEMALES ( Vs 37% males ), feminist hysteria is soon set to become a major force to reckon with for males.
Hence awareness of feminism, and a little more organisation among males will help.

Those who are convinced, please sign the petition.

http://www.petitiononline.com/dowry/petition.html

Those who are still not convinced however, may ponder over the timeless poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) ... " First they came for the Jews..."


www.498a.org

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Re: # 6

really? how do women in Pakistani urban societies "dominate" men? are the nation's laws somehow not applicable in cities?

Yaar Sohail Sahab,

a) what i had noticed is that : women ( wifes ) rules the roost in most of Pakistani houses - specially when the sons/daughters grow old..

b) women in our society specially in urban areas are dominating then men - and in rural areas , if not rule the roost then are incharge de' affairs of family matters

having said that - i do accept, we men do abuse women but comeon, women do that by sending us to our own sofas to sleep afterwards! like the last 'mukaa' of the president, it's the women who has the last punch!

although i'm engaged to this girl for good 2-3 months and believe me - she's respectful (prorably because she's a deliwal - rofl ) but somehow, I could not say 'no' to her already - what we both fear is : would our love last till we are seventy-eight? or would it end like normal couples: marriage of convenience? any tips to be consistant?
regards,
Ali

Dr. Sahib,

Feminist scholars like Dr. Leila Ahmed and Dr. Amina Wadud have pointed out that certain periods of Islamic empire like the Abbasid period codified the marginalization of women. This interpretation was a departure from the First Muslim societies in which men and women were each other's clothes. The Abbasid Empire, absorbing all the most conservative and self serving cultural practices of several Meditterean civillizations preceding it (including Byzantium, Mesopotamia, Greek Hellenism), arguably made women minorities within their own birth religion.

You touched upon this why many men refuse to question this curious interpretation, and that is their refusal to relinquish share holding of the power accorded to them by societal dominant voice. In other words, why would a man refute or dissent with interpretation (as wrongful as that interpretation may be) that codified his own patriarchical position within his marriage, household, community, country?
Patriarchy, like any unequal system, must be maintained through constant psychological as well as institutional vigilance.

Thus, the very action of a man breaking with this psychological (and literal) hegemony is to threaten the hegemony itself. As an example, a male relative was talking to a white colleague at work. During this conversation, the colleague casually referred to an African American colleague as a "n*****". This relative told the colleague that he could not continue the conversation and walked away. The relative in discussing this later was angered that the white colleague asked him to participate in, accept and approve of his racist speech. No doubt, the relative continued, in the future, he would be considered a "n***** lover" by the white colleague and those who agreed with the white colleague.

My observation is to point out how entrenched these pathologies can be and how they are policed by members of the dominating society. Any comments?

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Re: # 1
dear neembu...thank you for your generous thoughts. the first feminist i read was saadat hasan minto when he wrote...' every woman is not washaia (prostitute) but every washia has a woman inside her." he helped me see a washia as a woman and a woman as a human being. he also helped me see human beings in muslims and hindus when he wrote, 'why do you say hundred muslims went to heaven and hundred hindus will burn in hell. why do you not say we lost 200 precious human lives.' minto was the first feminist and humanist that inspired me. thanks again..sohail

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Thanks for this article-it's always so good to hear from feminist South Asian men!