Bullhe Shah and His Veil of “Meem”

Re: # 129

Thanks for replying Mr.Rabbani.

As a Muslim who follows the first command (read with understanding: Iqra), you ought not to blame me.

If Nostradamus speaks (from his grave) in riddles, it is okay, if the Scriptures sometimes do that, it is indeed okay, if I do that sometimes unintentionally, it must be okay too.

Between the crudely bold and the artifcially beautiful live the vague, without make-up.

Not having a dirty surname does help (naam ka asar hota hai) as one could start resembling the quality or quantity it represents.

Celebrate NOW!

:) (double that on the rocks)

Hinduism being a “evolved” religion as opposed to the “created” nature of the abrahamic religions, . It will be the turn of these Abrahamic religions to face free flow of information now. Abrahamic religions being dogmatic , will find it tough to stand the test of time.

Re: # 149

And by the way, since we are on this "sufi" theme, listen to none other than "tum ek gorakh dhanda ho" (written by Naaz Khailvi and sung by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan). These pantheists have been crying out for centuries, just no one has been paying attention!

You obviously didn't read the reply carefully enough. So it is OK to marry your first cousin with whom you share a strong genetic bond via the grandparents. Or is it? In many cultures that is a similar taboo.

The whole idea has been about "keeping it all in the family" in feudalistic cultures, wherever they are. Advantages of first cousin marriages, lets see, very little or no dowry, "zameen/Jaidad" stays together, common heritage so perhaps something to talk about when the kids are gone.....

Rhetoric doesn't get us anywhere. I took the liberty of looking up your profile; you seem to have quoted Einstein! how interesting. My friend, a lot of learned people use religious metaphor, especially in terms of a God; this has been part of human culture. Here is also some of the things Einstein said; you might want to include them on your introduction as well:


I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
-- Albert Einstein

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
-- Albert Einstein

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-- Albert Einstein

I also include quotation from Karen Armstrong (she has been quoted here once or twice) and none other than "OUR OWN" Mohammed Bin Zakaraya Al-Razi:

On what ground do you deem it necessary that God should single out certain individuals [by giving them prophecy], that he should set them up above other people, that he should appoint them to be the people's guides, and make people dependent upon them?
-- AbuBakr Al-Razi

You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?!
--AbuBakr Al-Razi

A God who kept tinkering with the universe was absurd; a God who interfered with human freedom and creativity was tyrant. If God is seen as a self in a world of his own, an ego that relates to a thought, a cause separate from its effect, "he" becomes a being, not Being itself. An omnipotent, all-knowing tyrant is not so different from earthly dictators who make everything and everybody mere cogs in the machine which they controlled. An atheism that rejects such a God is amply justified.
-- Karen Armstrong

The writing for "Religious thinking" is on the wall; by just repeating "My Allah said so via his beloved prophet" doesn't wash anymore mate! bring something intelligent and we are in business.

Also, we are still learning about the intrecacies of a lot of things that ask for our attention and demand exploration. Just because science doesn't have a full explanation YET, what makes you think religion does? You can't fill in gaps in scientific knowledge with fairytales! Uptil recently most people believed earthquakes and other natural disasters were "god's punishment" or "allah's wrath"; now we understand them better. It is funny that the same level/intensity of natural disasters, spread across countries, tend to do significantly less damage in the technologically advanced countries! don't you reckon.

May be "un ki rassi badhi daraaz hai..etc..etc.."

Re:akcheema

Cheema sahib, there is one and only one real reason for the existence of religion. It is the fear of the unknown after death. Man just cannot accept that this life is all there is to consciousness - once you die your neurons stop firing and thats the end of everything, just as no part of you existed before your birth, no part of you exists after death. This is a frightening and very scary conclusion to virtually every human being.

Hence the need to invent God, heaven, hell and all the nine yards associated with religion. It is very comforting to think that there is a grand plan and that you are part of that plan. Muslims often say that this life is a preparation for the next. It is essentially the lust for eternal existence which is at the core of all religions. Think of a case where a kid dies of cancer or some innocent people lose their lives in an accident. This appears so meaningless and life itself appears to be completely absurd. With a religious explanation, one can accept such events and carry on since one imagines that these deceased people are now in a better place.

This primordial need to be part of a grand plan fuels the urge towards spirituality and religion. That becomes a perfect foundation for a moral/ethical code as well since if you do not do the right things, you do not get that eternal life, while you get rewarded for doing the right thing. Thus religion also becomes a very powerful tool to control society and maintain order. Most legal systems, including the western legal system is based on religious Judeo Christian ethics.

So all in all, religion is critical for man because man is too weak and powerless in this universe.

akcheema#148:

The theme occurs in quite a few sufi songs; there is this famous song whose first line I forget but the second line gives the reason why the sufi revers Allah is "kyunkay tu muhammad ka khuda hai".

Blind faith in Mohammad is not only critical for Muslims; it is, indeed, the only condition. Once you accept Mohammad as a prophet, everything else follows, without him, there is nothing. The same could be said of most other religions; jesus for christians, moses for jews, buddha for buddhists, even sai baba for his followers.

#144 Posted by akcheema

You say "evolution and genetics","programmed"! TaureanKhan says "instinctively programmed"! "free thinking"! etc etc. of-course forgetting the Romans and the Pharaohs who weren't so programmed in those early days.

So where did the "programming" come from? Laddu's monkey ancstors? Or was it religion which took hold after the Romans and the Pharaohs?

If it was Laddu's monkey ancestors, then you're absolutely on the right track. I congratulate you.

However if it was religion, then you freethinkers can all safely marry your sisters and mothers (if you like them i.e.), and not have babies at all so as not to produce retards, but have them with surrogate mothers or second wives or some stuff like that. Nothing wrong with consenting adults (convenience not even counting) or is there? Anything wrong with free will? Humanism?

Google for the German bro/sis marriage case (who don't want to have off-spring) and see the arguments presented and tell me why the hell the State refuses to allow it.

"Jay Oh (He) nah hun’dan, nah Rabb und’an, Lolak Khuda farmaya ay
Eh (this) gull (saying) yaar khata bhee naee’n, jay Khuda Oh (Muhammad) naee’n, tay judaa bhee naee’n"

If Mohammed didn't exist, Khuda (or is it allah these days in the Islamic Republic!) wouldn't exist either; "a figment" of a very vivid imagination!

A comment on Ref # 138:
“The veiling of "meem" with respect to Mohammad is that piece of subtle kufr regarding Mohammad that sufis indulged in - almost a reverse taquiyya.”

With due respect I just want to say Sir subtle Kufr could never be ‘Taquiyya’ neither reverse nor straight according to Quran. Moreover you seem to understand spirituality well enough but your understanding of Islam seems to me is limited. And I say so because if you really have read ‘Quran’ you would understand why our very humane Prophet Mohammad PBUH chose to leave ‘Sadhna’ and became politicaly active. What I understood is that Prophet Mohammed PBUH had complete ‘Unveiling of Truth’(when he attained ‘Mairaj) and He knew that the complete salvation, a ‘Nirvana’ is achieved or a real ‘Khuda ka banda’ (God’s Man) is the one who work for the betterment of God’s creation, who save miserable souls from sufferings, from oppression and from tyrant discriminative systems( Jbar kee quwatoan ke khilaf). As Allah said in Quran, “who amal jo banee noae insaan kee falah mein na kiya jae who raigaan gaya” which mean “those actions/deeds which are not benefical to mankind are wasted”. Prophet Mohammad PBUH, Prohet Moses, Christ, Abraham or any other holy Prophet were all reformers, the revolutionist of their times. They all worked against the unjust systems of their eras.

“It was this apostatic kufr poetry that also aimed at diluting the agenda of political Islam and take Islam towards spirituality. Pakistanis are now re-looking into sufi version of Islam to reclaim their "Islamic" identity.”

Sufism is not what Islam preaches and hense not an Islamic identity. For us Muslims Islam is not just politics, science, jurisprudence or spiritual rituals but encompasses all in moderation. Islam put balance emphasis on practices and divine laws which would not just nourish, purify, and grow an individual soul but enables to create a harmonised peaceful just communities. This is the preaching of Islam though that ideal state is still far fetched but the goal for us to attain that kind of state is set. It was this vision behind the creation of Pakistan to present to the world the true model Islamic state. But unfortunately we had made mockery of our selves. How ironical is that people who never read the holy book Quran (born muslims and others) easily criticise and comments on it. I wonder how could anybody just make comment on any book without reading and understanding the text?

“ But for that they would have to accept the fact that sufis were superior to Mohammad and the path to Allah can only be achieved by jettisoning Mohammad and his political path.”
You might rate Sufis better than Mohammad (astaghfaarullah) but just ponder a little before making this sweeping judgement. I give an example from common day.If your house is on fire or under tornado or threatened by any disaster and one of your family member is busy in collecting his own private belongings, making plans doing things to secure himself and there is another member who leave all his wealth aside and tries to rescue other family members, who would you rate superior than?

I think sufism is all words and no action for mankind. Allama Iqbal said,
“ Khuda ke bande bane hazaroan, banoon mein phirte hain maare maare,
Mein us ka banda banoo ga jis ko Khuda ke bandoan se piyaar ho ga”
Abu Bin Adham (Rehmatullah elaih) a great sufi was also reported to have similar philosphy.

Nikhat Riaz

Wow Gill Sahib, I was thrilled to find out that you also read Pervaiz sahib's book on "Tasawuuf". I read it too and many more of his great works like 'Iblees aur Adam','Insaan ne kiya soacha',' Allah ne kiya kaha', on 'Taqdeer' and many others. You probably know that he quoted Allama Iqbal (who once was ardent lover of Hafiz and Roomi great Sufi poets and in his later life deviated from Sufism once he understood 'Quran' clearly) that "Tassawuuf Islam kee serzameen pe ajanbi poada hai".
The history of "Tassawuuf" in that book told us how ancient, deep and universal are the roots of this 'ism'.
After I read that book I understood clearly the theory of 'wahdat-el-wajood'. Though its very idealistic and humanitarian at one level but the ground reality is that it limits a man to private rituals of reaching 'nirvana' excludes him from actual participation in society. This dangerous path encourages a man to leave practical real world, be a cripple worthless member instead of active, beneficial, contributing member of community.
I believe today’s world need a fine balance of compassionate heart of 'Sufi', their humanitarian poetry and peace messages along with strong 'Khudee and shaheen philosophy of Iqbal to make it a better place. Balance is key word which our Prophet Mohammed PBUP has always preached. What do you say?

Nikhat Riaz

Re: # 143

read "contrived all of the "Mecca verses" ..." as "contrived all of the "medina verses".."

Re No: 140

The reason is in evolution and genetics. Look around you matey! I take it you are from Pakistan; so am I. I am sure either you yourself or someone close to you is married and has had kids with a first cousin! How much of a difference is there exactly? Studies from Birmingham, England have indicated a 12 times rise of ceratin genetic disorders amongst people from Pakistani heritage; the reason is "commonality" of genetic pool with the same variations and mutations propagated through generations. By the way, more than 90% of the population in question practices con-sanguinity; for you that means first cousin marriages.

The reason these things are not obvious in Pakistan is that such offsprings either die at birth or, through "natural selection" get taken care of during early childhood. How many times do we see people, including young/newborn children and stillbirths etc that get put down to "allah di marzi" and swept under the carpet!

This is the reason we are "programmed" not to commit incest. Clear enough!

By the way, I also don't rape, kill, mame, steal, commit fraud and intentionally hurt someone else's feelings. This is what my conscience tells me; the same conscience that has developed and perfected over millions of years of evolution through natural selection. In olden, tribalistic, early human living (probably even in the times of Austrelopithicus), if you were to do something injurious to someone else, surely the repurcussions were severe. So the early humans learnt very quickly what was "right" and "wrong". This is where the "Golden Rule" comes from: "DONOT DO TO SOMEONE YOU WOULDN'T WANT DONE TO YOURSELF".

Surprisingly, this lynch mob mentality has had a resurgence within the Islamic world - right from the early days I might add!

Now if you have something productive to contribute, I'd be happy to listen. I don't like wasting my time otherwise.

Re: # 142

MECCA Versus MEDINA Verses- How Mohammad fell from the PAth

"He was drowned in the Ocean of Divine Oneness."

For an enlightened one drowned in the ocean of divine oneness - hatred towards idolators,kafirs or any one not agreeing with you would automatically disappear and "samata" or "oneness of thought" would automatically set in.

Mohammad's "Bhrasta Sadhana" (falleness from the path) is clearly evident from his actions when he migrated from medina because nobody was ready to accept his "superiority" as a prophet.
That ego defining moment of Mohammad led him to his falleness from the path. Now , no revelations were coming because his ego had made him think that he is the chosen one and the prophet and all human beings must follow him.

His ego turned him into a narcissist and there when no revelations came to him he became angry - HE CONTRIVED ALL OF THE "MECCA VERSES" IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY HIS EGO MANIACAL SATANIC VIOLENT ACTIONS OF RAPE, LOOT, BANDITRY AND MURDER.
That is the truth about that fallen man. He was just a man who for a brief moment connected to the devine only to re-ify his ego as the divine later when he strayed from the path.

That is why sufis say - take away the "Meem"/maya from mohammad - i.e. take away the later verses- and you get the path to Allah.

laddu,
i'm afraid your postfactum analyses are completely wrong!
The Messenger IS the fount of spirituality from which the Sufis derive their own elevated states. He was drowned in the Ocean of Divine Oneness. All other Messengers and Saints recieve their portions of spirituality from Sayyidina Muhammad who alone is the one who is totally Fana Fillah: Anniihilated in Allah. His position in the spiritual heirarchy is unique, only below Allah Himself.

That is why he said: "He who has seen me has seen al-Haqq".
sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam!

Re: # 140

Zeemax

.....Listen wise guy, the only reason why you can't sleep with your sister or mother is because religion says so. No other reason. Got it?.....

-----------------------------------------
I admire your "shock treatment" to all at Chowk!!

Now that adds a good kick (literally!!) to the arguments on religion..

How about pondering over the possibility that we are "instinctively programmed" not to indulge in incest?? what would you say to that?.... I have not come across any news or research pointing to the rise of incest in communist countries, especially Russia. Have you?

Now please dont think that i am an apostate... not yet..... but I am doing some "free thinking" and reading..... putting to test the things which were hitherto "given" and taken for granted...

#133 Posted by akcheema,

Abey tu phir aa gaya?

Listen wise guy, the only reason why you can't sleep with your sister or mother is because religion says so. No other reason. Got it?

If you want to argue about this, ask the chief-apostate of Chowk named Dr. Sohail who's ass is still smarting from the thrashing he got.

Now if you really want to prove your credentials, do either (or both) of the above and let us know the logic derived from the experience(s). If you don't, you're just a hypocrite upstart like dozens on these pages.