Bullhe Shah and His Veil of “Meem”

Re: # 133

akcheema mian,

.... you are a darn good writer, you have clarity of thought and purpose, you obviously have a meaningful and well paying job (and probably use utensils to eat your dinner)and you seem to be a decent person .... so what the heck are you doing here wasting your time with ne'erdowells like us ? ...... you are welcome to stay, but i suggest you move on before we drag you down to our level ......

Re: # 133

"Laddu, I agree with your concept of asceticism in the sense that it is something achievable, BUT, it has been biologically shown that a person, through meditation/concentration etc., can release , subconsciously of course, chemicals in one's brain that allows one to have "out-of-the-world" experiences."

Yes, there is a physical and verifiable aspect to it. Mohammad did sadhana that altered his physical self - his sweat became sweet smelling and his face had a glow - these are all normal consequences of sadhana done by ascetics which he gained in his 40 days sadhana - but he immediately fell down from the path of annihilation. In fact sufis reached that path of fanaa /annihilation that Mohammad could not reach.

That is why sufis are spiritually superior in every aspect. The sufi's mullah-arse-licking was basically to avoid getting lynched publically and avoid getting into un-necessary conflict with the powerful ulemas who define political Islam. The non-darbari Sufis avoided political Islam and merely paid lip service to Sunnat and all that is there in political Islam and wrote subtly veiled verses that actually belittled Mohammad but praised Allah.

The veiling of "meem" with respect to Mohammad is that piece of subtle kufr regarding Mohammad that sufis indulged in - almost a reverse taquiyya. It was this apostatic kufr poetry that also aimed at diluting the agenda of political Islam and take Islam towards spirituality. Pakistanis are now re-looking into sufi version of Islam to reclaim their "Islamic" identity. But for that they would have to accept the fact that sufis were superior to Mohammad and the path to Allah can only be achieved by jettisoning Mohammad and his political path.

Re: # 132

yes, I am indeed indebted to have you as a friend.

hmmm....this seems to have become a society of self congratulators.

It seems the debate is between "islam sucks" and "islam and sufism suck" and "sufism sucks".

Fantastic.

Why don't you all give each other a hand ;)

#134 TK: Here is how you look at it. Everything is relative. The Quranic message is relative to 7th century AD. So relative to things in the 7th century AD where does the Quran stand?

1. on women rights - pushes for their property rights. rights not received by women in the west until the 19th century (per Karen Armstrong). Conclusion: muslims should follow the Quran and push for equal rights for women, not just better rights than 7th century.

2. on individual rights - the Quran makes the individual personally responsible to God on matters of religion. Not to other individuals. Thus, it rejected priesthoods of the 7th century. Conclusion - if individuals were not considered to need priests for er.."guidance"..in the 7th century, they certainly dont need them today!!

and so on.

Re: # 111

tahir,

I am not just chasing aussie dollar but also have time to look at my religion more closely and critically...something not allowed or cannot be afforded in pakiland.... how would you justify the verses that call for "beating" wives if they do not obey... and why is the Quran so misogynist... with the visualisation of heaven more as an Arab fantasy with "flowing rivers of honey" and houris.!!! now this is something i did not realise earlier.... some non muslim friends pointed these things out and frankly i am not satisfied with the replies to these issues given by muslim ulema.....

I left because I have work related committments; also, there seems to be a lot of "circular reasoning" going on. This way the ideas can't progress but remain static with the illusion of progression; that has been the hallmark of muslim culture throughout history, even during the so-called "golden age". There was clear camps of those trying to justify ancient Greek philosophies and amalgamating it with Quranic thought (Ghazzali vs Ibn-e-Rush - Incoherence of philosophers vs incoherence of incoherence, respectively - is only one prominent example).

The expanse and rapidity of expansion of an empire does not imply any truth, if there happens to be a message behind it. The Roman Empire was pretty huge but I don't condone some of the barbarity associated with it. However, there has been a lot of good that came out of it as well. Same goes for the rapidity of expansion of the British Empire; it covered a major part of the planet at one point and the areas it didn't directly control, it had a great influence on indirectly. The "imperialistic" ambitions have changed in recent times and the current "Americanism" is no different, but in this empire the influences are exerted indirectly via proxies. What does it actually mean; should we all succumb that an "empire/message" is so rapidly expanding so it must be true; doesn't mean a thing! We can dissect out individual elements of this "early muslim empire" region by region, but I am sure you have an analytical enough mind to read independently.

I have tried to stay out of personal attacks as it generates a reaction and distorts the individual's response somewhat; you can say it has the capacity to radicalise views at times. Eklavya, surely Laddu wasn't there with Mohammed so he can't be "absolutely certain" what was going through his mind with regards to his "ascetic" experiences; with all due respect, nor were you, so why are you so confident about its verasity. Just based on what Mohammed and his immediate followers wrote? How does that make it reliable? We are back to "circular reasoning" again!

Laddu, I agree with your concept of asceticism in the sense that it is something achievable, BUT, it has been biologically shown that a person, through meditation/concentration etc., can release , subconsciously of course, chemicals in one's brain that allows one to have "out-of-the-world" experiences. However, these are generated by the organism itself and are not, I repeat not, an indication of an outer "persona", be it god/allah/brahma etc. The very essence of true Sufis was this "clarity"; god lives in the heart is exactly that, I am sorry to disappoint anyone! It is nothing but a "figment" of one's own mind. I am also impressed with your knowledge base on these matters, especially the distinction between the "darbari" sufis and "true" ascetics. The very fact that these experiences have been across the board, well represented amongst people from Hindu (Sadhu), Muslim (Sufi-the"true variety"!), Christian (Eastern Mysticism), Jews (Kabbala), Buddhists (Gautam himself - who was an atheist by definition!) and many others, is a testament to their universality; and that is where we sould leave it.

As far as contradictions are concerned, there are plenty in Koranic/Hadith literature, otherwise there won't be all these "interpretaions" and "sects" etc; like I said in my very first entry (#49), they can't all be true! Question is, is any one of them true!? There is an ingrown, through millions of years of evolution, sense of right and wrong in all of us. This existed before Mohammed (just to quote an example, feel free to substitute Buddha, Jesus or someone else), and it has existed since. When early muslims came across the thoughts of ancient Greeks, they were as perplexed as everyone now seems to be. There were debates, writings, philosophical discussions, incorporations of it into Islam or outright rejections. This is what made this "golden age" possible. It was about nurturing the "anlytical" faculties of the human mind - it wasn't all plain sailing for the scholars of the time, as sometimes is implied by a lot of Muslims! It had nothing to do with the "expanse of the empire"; however, having the upper hand provided some security for this as "new (?) ideas" often don't just occur if one is starving bloody hungry!!

Coming back to contradictions; contradictions are there in every single human mind that exists and functions at an average human level. It is a fact of life! It is what distinguishes humans from other great apes, and the rest of the animal kingdom at large. Otherwise, why would one think about anything?! We would just nurture our basic "animal" needs and muddle through life like any other organism. As for the "originality" of any thought, thoughts "evolve" are don't just "occur" on the spot! To quote an example, when we have the next generation of computers, the next generation is built upon the blueprint of the former; they don't start from scratch everytime.

I know I have gone on for a bit but before anyone writes impulsive responses, just read it all first; nothing worse than repetition I am afraid. I would like to, intermittently, participate if I can. I tend to be very busy at work, like I mentioned before, so please pardon my periodic absences, especially if there happens to be a question addressed directly towards what I said.

laddu,

..... you can be my friend ..... i am not very picky

Re: # 127

tahir ji,

"Are these your original thoughts? "

These are thoughts based upon my person experiences and sadhanas. I have met so many ascetics, sadhus, scholars of religious texts (shastras) that I know for sure when I see a "path bhrasht" sadhaka.
What Mohammad experienced in his sadhana days is nothing new but can be experienced by sadhakas even today.
I know may sadhakas who turned opposite of what they were practicing- their sadhana was annihilating their ego gradually and that is actually the scariest of all the prospects in sadhana.
When Mohammad just reached the stage of complete annihilation he abandoned his sadhana.
He became path-brahsht and became veiled by the "meem" - one of the stages of veiling in Jain thought is called "tirthankar-gotra-bandh" - the desire to be a prophet. And he fell down the path and became the monster that he became later.
Mohammad was the fallen sadhaka- there is no doubt about it!!

Tahir, the tendency, the urge to abuse, curse, dismiss, put down, defame individuals - those who disagree with us - is a major hurdle to understanding things/ideas as they really are. Unfortunately, we fall into that error so often :(

-----------
Contradictory ideas cannot 'respect' each other. And those contradictions must be highlighted. Yet, as much as possible, it seems better to leave the conflict of ideas within the realm of ideas.

I myself find it hard to follow that advice. Personalizing issues is often too powerful, seductively powerful an alternative - quick and easy.

Re: # 114 tahir wrote:

["... 1) SUPPORTING CHEEMA?!?!?!

... 2) How men seldom live up to the qualities of their names ..."]

Tahir ji, what can I say? You read more into the words then you should.

1) I do not support Cheema. I do not know him from Adam. For all I know he could be a real Prince or he could be an asshole. But that does not matter. I was simply supporting the idea he was projecting. That had a ring of truth for me.

2) What's in a name? Suppose my parents had named me "Prince".. What would that have mattered? I'd still be the ordinary paupper that I am. Or if they'd named me "Asshole"... what would that have mattered?

You speak in riddles. What did you really want to say?

...SR

Re: # 126
Mr. Eklavya at last!

I'm sure you read me as closely as you read Mr. Laddu. Just because one's country is five times the size of another hated one does not entitle the former to bad-mouth the later.

Trying to understand faith and spirtuality while mud-slinging is bound to bring the excretion back on the slinger's face--provided one has a real face, a real name to begin with.

Laddu says: I would like to make some good Pakistani friends.

If I were to curse and abuse good Hindus who practise 'dharam' the way it is prescribed in genuine texts, would I make friends?

To live a life full of contraditions is worse than 'narkh'.

Aap hi iss 'moorakh' ko samjhaiay.

Shanti.

Re: # 121
"Mohammad could never accept the fact that path to god is annihilation of ego - scared at the prospect of his ego dissolution he remained covered in the veil of "meem" and acted violently that re-affirmed his ego as a "prophet" that is superior to other humans."

Are these your original thoughts? Read the Quran for the dire warnings to the Prophet regarding apprehensions (satanic whispers), incomplete delivery of the message, and paying greater heed to rich pagans in the hope that their conversion might bring about a faster change!

His job was to deliver the message, AND show how it is to be done through persistence, patience, sacrifice, words and good deeds.

The Islam-haters have these pet insults which knowledgeable Muslims are familair with; tell me something new now...

Shanti.

Tahir, actually, laddu is a very good Hindu, except that he speaks out. He is the closest to a Hindu friend of Islam.

Secular Hindus are much worse, and they are the true enemies. Laddu at least makes an effort to understand, and is naturally shocked, just as any good Muslim would be shocked were he or she try to really understand Hinduism.

(A 'good' Muslim would want Hinduism to be an extension of Islam, and laddu, a 'good' Hindu wants Islam to be an extension of Hinduism.)

Secular Hindus don't even make an effort, and dismiss it all as off-hand. According to secular Hindus, Muslims do what they do only because they are absolutely crazy, illiterate, brainwashed etc etc.... :(

Re: # 113

A CD titled ALIM 6 is available which has 4 translations side by side along with the Hadith books. It has ASAD too!

Asad is the best kept secret in Pakistan. Now find out why the so-called heavyweights of Islam won't allow his translations to be read by the masses. What is accepted is all bubblegum and lollipops!

The local print of his translation should not cost more than $10 in India. The latest foreign edition is just awesome! They created a special Arabic font for its fine print. It has Arabic original text, English translation AND transliteration, a great index and what not. Costs around $40.

Here's an excerpt from his 'The Road to Mecca': (Rs.200/-)

After traveling much of Central Asia, he was now in Afghanistan. He was once traveling from Kabul to Herat on horseback through the snow-covered valleys of Hindu-Kush when his horse lost an iron shoe. So he had to stop the trip for a few days and go to a village to have the shoe repaired. A hakim (district governor) in Afghanistan came to know about a "foreigner" visiting his area. He invited Weiss to spend an evening and a night with him. Weiss, who spoke Persian fluently by that time, accepted the invitation. After the dinner, a villager entertained them with a song and his three-stringed lute. The room was carpeted and warm and it was snowing outside, which could be glimpsed through the window. The song was about David’s fight with Goliath ...

When it ended, the hakim remarked: “David was small, but his faith was great.”

I could not prevent myself from adding: “And you are many, but your faith is small.”

My host looked at me with astonishment, and, embarrassed by what I had almost involuntarily said, I rapidly began to exam myself. My explanation took the shape of a torrent of questions:

“How has it come about that you Muslims have lost your self-confidence — that self-confidence which once enabled you to spread your faith, in less than a hundred years, from Arabia westward as far as the Atlantic and eastward deep into China —and now surrender yourselves so easily, so weakly, to the thoughts and customs of the West? Why can’t you, whose forefathers illumined the world with science and art at a time when Europe lay in deep barbarism and ignorance, summon forth the courage to go back to your own progressive, radiant faith? How is it that Ataturk, that petty masquerader who denies all value to Islam, has become to you Muslims a symbol of ‘Muslim re¬vival’?”
The hakim remained speechless. It was now snowing again outside, and Weiss continued –

“Tell me — how has it come about that the faith of your Pro¬phet and all its clearness and simplicity has been buried beneath a rubble of sterile speculation and the hair-splitting of your scholastics? How has it happened that your princes and great land-owners revel in wealth and luxury while so many of their Muslim brethren subsist in unspeakable poverty and squalour — although your Prophet taught that No one may call himself a Faithful who eats his fill while his neighbour remains hungry? ... How has it come about that so many of you Muslims are ignorant and so few can even read and write — although your Prophet declared that Striving after knowledge is a most sacred duty for every Muslim man and woman and that the superiority of the learned man over the mere pious is like the superiority of the moon when it is full over all other stars"?

The hakim was startled. But at the end, he said,

“But – you are a Muslim ...”

I laughed, and replied: “No, I am not a Muslim, but I have come to see so much beauty in Islam that it makes me sometimes angry to watch you people waste it ... Forgive me if I have spoken harshly ...”

But my host shook his head. “No, it is as I have said: you are a Muslim, only you don’t know it yourself ...”

Now get down on it Laddu brother....
PS: Cross the border and I'll gift the book to you!

laddu, how do you know that Mohammad connected with the divine, got frightened, and ran away, and became ego affirming, etc.?

That's not a cheap shot. So I won't ask you: "Were you there?" or, "Can you offer historical references? (because no one can expect many anti-Islamic references to surive in Islamic lands).

Can you explain to me, logically, in a way that would make sense to a Muslim? Thanks.