Bullhe Shah and His Veil of “Meem�

Re: # 263

"And I certainly do not know if Muhammad is his or her or their messanger or not."

Now this is a spin - because we are NOT talking about your "knowledge" of Mohammad but about your "Belief" in him.

Repeat this statement as under and oblige please-

""And I certainly do not BELIEVE if Muhammad is Allah's messanger."

thanks

Re: # 263

"How can I 'negate the kalima' when I never ever accepted it in the first place. "

To negate the kalima you do not have to accept it in the first place. I do not get your logic? It is like saying that to deny the existence of Buraq you have to believe in him!!

hamidm #250 Thanks for the tips. However, I dont recall ever having to "defend" Islam from normal people in real life. Only hindus on chowk who hate Islam, Muslims, and Pakistan with equal fervor; and yourself and few other Pakistanis who are only too happy to hand over Islam to be defined by hearded troglodytes, ignoring your own common sense.

And so far, I have not heard anything convincing from either you or the hindu fanatics on chowk who are as impervious to reason as maulvis.

Re: # 259

"..f Dr tara Chand.Itwas specific to LAddu.He will remember it that is the reason he did not answer!"

Where does Dr. Tara Chand enter in the discussion? And what is your point specific in the context of that charlatan, paedophile, murderer and rapist being superior to the rest of sufis??

laddu, why do you persist in misunderstanding/not believing me? I have NEVER tried the taquiyya stuff, or tried to come across as something I am not. I am an unbeliever, and an ex-Hindu as well, if Hinduism means all religions are the same, everyone's the same, the earth and the mars are the same, and totally goofy, utterly illogical stuff like that.

How can I 'negate the kalima' when I never ever accepted it in the first place. That is NOT my belief. Still, just to satisfy you, because there is really no need for anyone to misunderstand anyone or anything else: I do not know if there is God, one God, or twentyfive Gods. And I certainly do not know if Muhammad is his or her or their messanger or not. Isn't that what an unbeliever basically is? Hopefully, you will have resolution on this score now.

This is after all such a small thing once we decide to not focus on individuals and persons.

Re: # 49 I love to know that you have thirst to propbe the very foundationsof htis religion,Islam,the msot Modern religion of Wolrd .

As to your anguish regarding differnt understanding of the same concept,then diversity is in nature and every perwson has his or her own leevl of understanding . it is liek reading of same text bookand being taught by smae teacher and having differnent understanding and grades. Millions of apples and not asinglepairofequal taste and shape. The undesrtanding flows from inside and htese basic differnct understanding are perceptions and when they are ratioanlly discussedthey they becoem concepts and Islam conceptually is one and singleentity fromAdam to Muhamamd peace be upon him,but perceptions vary at lower and initial leevl and this shows lack of lessknowledge by the person not limit of idea.If we can not understand the ideait si our limitation not the limitation of idea!

As to contadictions in the quran, be specificand qquote any example ,then we can discuss it in that regard.

As to free will,it has its limits and frontiers,like it is beyond our free willtochoose gender,parents,place of birth,and death timing but we choose our ideas,careers and friends and eating habits etc.It isnot for eevry item undersun,it has itsown directions and stresses.

Free willis not preordained as iqbalsays Allah ahs created yourforehead free ,write ith with yourown action!Alldepends upon intent and actions and free willis fro actions ,there willnot be any question that where wereyou boirn or whowereyopur parents,the accountability is of freechoices we make throughout life!Lauh e Mahfouz doesnot makechocies for us ,it contains allthe posssiblechoices we can make ornot make.It is Creator'sgrasp of knowledge and allknowing !

The completion of Deen is to basic three fundamentals,Tauheed and other ideaswillkeepon studied and explored as the abilitiesadn potentials of individual.

The fianlaty is of divine Guidance and trust of Allh on the sensesof human beings to maketheirown decisions and it is the freedom which has evoved fromAdam toMuhamamd peace be upon him!It is evolved over thousands ofyears,and not a processof accident or blind evolution!

Re: # 248 It was in context,others ahev theriown point of view.Do not always search your own mnaings, try to live with differnce also.

Re: # 248 It was in context,others ahev theriown point of view.Do not always search your own mnaings, try to live with differnce also.

Re: # 245 Dear it wasrefercnetoolddiscussion and willyou describe for our refreshment the ideas of Dr tara Chand.Itwas specific to LAddu.He will remember it that is the reason he did not answer!

It wasnot reference to ongoing debatebut was wth a perspective!

Re: # 252 Dear point was thatclosedsocietiescan not depict the changing realities oflife.

Aretehnative youth s notlost?Do,nt they use drugs...as per studiesit si over 80% in US and UK schools at least Muslim youth is caught to plotting to killto bring about the change ..afalse idea and distroted facts... but the antive youth goeson killing spree without any meaning and purpose.

This sense oflossis universalnotrestricted to any creed or religion,htis is curseof globalization and absurdity of modernity which increases temporary pleasures and consumption but neevr builds a strong, durable and long lasting frame of mind.It is always changing wihtout any purpose and direction...one day research says coffee is abd ad afetr soem times it says no coffee is elixir! It is permanent figth of conflciting intersts and ideas without any purposeand stability and modern tiems call it 'invisiblehand of market'' the market rules supreme not values.

Take out Prophets, Sages and other moralteachers, what willremain in this world? How many known athesits have played theri rolein evolving and developing these human values of compassion,love sacrifice, resource saving,patience, chivalary and care for fellowbeings.

They propagate ruthless competition no tcooperation..lifesi not mereahggling for ego boost and consumption induced and consumption run morlaity... it is something more peace of mind and heart.WHich this modern society can not offer...it isnot our cry it si cry of allthe brilliant mindsofWest alsofrom Oswald Spengler to Toynbee.

We neeed love and tolerance ...not religion specific but covering allthe humanity.. and for me this ideal is visible and practicedby Prophets peace eb upon them fromAdamthe First Prophet peace be upon him to the last Prophet Muhamamd peace be upon him.Theri evolutionary thougts are the zenith of human development and highest ideals and if you have other evolutionary,consistent and appealing ideals ,then bring it out and share.Do not search refuge of personalfailures meaninglessness in Islambashing...it did not serve many before and willnot serve forfuture also!

hatred has neevr been a good guide and teacher,let us embrace love ,love of Rumi, Hafiz and Iqbal,let su creaet new worlds!

Re: # 256

"I too, unfortunately, lack faith in divine authority, and see the world in human terms."

Then how about negating the kalima for once on the board.

Please oblige us non believers to be sure that you are not BS us with this taquiyya.

khurram, as an unbeliever, I probably share a lot with akcheema ji, but to understand cheema ji's frustration, we have to see zee's theory of water carriers and flag bearers at work.

akcheema is an unbeliever. But according to WCFB theory, he can't under any circumstances leave the fold of Islam, and as a 'member' he will continue to be a resource for Islam as it actually is.

IMO, hamdim2 bhai has made peace with that role, and merely entertains himself on chowk. But akcheema ji is still struggling and has a few more years of struggle left in him.

Sorry cheema ji, nothing personal. As I said, you and I probably share a lot of beliefs. I too, unfortunately, lack faith in divine authority, and see the world in human terms.

akcheema,
What is all this shouting for? No one is forcing Islam on you. No one is asking you to change.
On the contrary, it is you who wants muslim to change.

if you are sincere about changing people, and are not just venting, may I suggest that your current attitude is going to be counter-productive. Taunting is not the way to go.

Re: # 251

"Some 3,000 villagers have attended an elaborate Hindu wedding ceremony in eastern India for two monkeys. "

Hamid mia,

Celebrating the union and sexuality of animals close to human beings makes for a far better social jumburee and event compared to the mass hysteria that is created by momens during muharram with chest beating, self torture of flesh and mourning for some family in-fighting that took a thousand of years ago in some remote land of Arabia.
It is so nice to see every one celebrating nature than mourning for a long forgone tale of hatred.

laddu, I have been looking for an opportunity to agree with you, and we may have it.

True, Muslims owe allegiance to arabian land, but many Muslims also owe allegiance to 'Pakistani' land (ironically, the same land that khera walas mope and moan about). These lands are not valued for themselves but for the ideas they represent.

--------

This is different from Hindu allegiance to land. After a while, a Hindu living in Australia owes allegiance to Australia, one living in the US begins to owe allegiance to the US, and so forth.

If you think about it, there is no fundamental reason why the latter should be the case. It's just emotional silliness.

--------

If you understand all this, I can't figure out why you would be so conned by yoginder shikhandi, ali ajagar, and jootonwala sort...

# 237

I have answered all of your questions; see my entries and you'd know. I have already said that I don't believe the character of Abraham even existed in the historical sense. But this fictional character is brandished about as some sort of role model; role model for what? That he abandons one of his son and wife in the arabian desert (the Zam-Zam myth); or the in-humane misguided act of his son's sacrifice. Issue is not that I believeit to be true,I have already said it isn't; issue is that YOU DO believe it to be true hence we see the ritualistic sacrifices every year. So you do clearly believe it to be examplary behaviour. That is the question.

Now where are the answers to all of my question, for the umpteenth time?

# 241

Science, education etc are not gods sir; far from it. It is an evolutionary process that develops with better understanding as the faculties of human mind open up,gradually; one idea built upon another and so on. Sometimes old ideas are rejected and replaced with new ones. If anyone shows me a better designed study that proves an opposite point to what I happen to believe to be true, I'd be the first to look in to it and accept it. How many of your religious scholars would do the same about their rigid ideas? That is the difference. One is a human idea, bettered all the time, rejected, debated, accepted, replaced and so on. When you bring "the divine" into it, its eternal. No one can change it as it is formulated in god's name and, since he is at least not seen to be having too much of an input in the matter, there is no one with the balls to critique or change it. I have explained the same concept time and again in previous entries, its frustrating when without reading the information all I get is the rant of "murtid" etc.

You are right, UK and Australia are not muslim majority lands. What is your point here? All I was saying is they are part of the western world, however that is defined, and it is places like these where I see these interactions take place. The muslim youth here is completely lost, in terms of their identity. Anyone else from another part of the world would come here and within one generation their kids would be proud to be Aussies, they would progress in life. On the contrary, muslim parents will indoctrinate their kids to the point that they have no idea where they belong. Culture is one thing; muslims are not the only ethnic community here, but they are the most lost. They get conflicting messages from their households vs the society at large, they don't know wether to introduce themselves as Aussies or Pakistanis or Muslims. I don't see that, to the same extent, with other minorities.

In the UK, school league table show that 12% of British University entrants are from Indian background, they only form 2% of the population (proportionately, this is better than the native population). Pakistani and Bangladeshi children are the lowest in their ranks, majority barely finishing school. There are a lot of social issues but they are not going to go away by burying one's head in the sand or attempts at scoring cheap shots. If children are being brought up so they can just about finish school (since it is compulsary), and then be married off to a first cousin in the fatherland, and that being the sole objective of life, what hope is there for the future.

By just blaming others for one's problems is not a good strategy. There is room for a lot of self-analysis and soul-searching here if someone could listen

I am not here to score cheap points. I hardly use the internet unless it is for my own professional searches, like Medline etc. I didn't know about Chowk or a lot of things mentioned previously by Zeemax. It has actually been tiring in a sense over the last few days. It was clearly an eye opener in more than one ways. I am grateful for the experience and I hope I didn't use the "shock" treatment too much. I just wanted to know if the old place had changed much; lets say I wasn't completely disappointed!