Bullhe Shah and His Veil of “Meem”

dullabhatti#359:

Most of the hindus and sikhs living in those muslim majority areas were khatris who do not marry their cousins; indeed marry within the same subcaste of khatris was also forbidden, although I have recently seen somm bollywood marriages between Kapoors, this was a strict no-no in the old days.

Dr. Cheema sahib,

As Mohammad Hamid has tried to warn you umpteen times, you are casting pearl before swine, or as we'd say in South Asia, bhains kay aagay been bajana...

Some of us have enjoyed watching this debate (if you could even call it that) from the sidelines because most of these very same, well reasoned, arguments have already fallen upon these same (and similar) deaf ears, with equally crude and crass responses by the so-called guardians of piety. After a while one gets burnt out, as you surely will, in the fullness of time.

As the oldest alleged murtid on Chowk (dating back to October 1997) I've seen many a crop of these self-appointed champions of Islam.

Do not be too impressed. Some of these so-called Islamophiles are real Munafiqs. I happen to know for a fact that some of these arm-chair jihadis are just frustrated, burnt out, marginally functional pathetic drunkards with manifest signs of alcoholic dementia, who do not have a life otherwise. They are empty vessels that make a lot of noise. They deserve pitty, not revulsion, (though revultion is natural). They are ones who hang on to big titles that they keep by corruption and manipulation. They sell their souls to the devil, they use prostitution and bribery and other unsavory methods in their daily lives and then turn around and lecture the world on Islam while drowned in their drunken stupor. These are the pathological liars who out to impress an anonymous crowd to massage their fragile and bruised egos by making up fictious stories of glorious deeds and remarkable possessions they have.

Don't pay any attention to those kind, just ignore them.

...SR

SSA Paaji;

You are most probably right. It is fascinating to see Dullah Bhatti commemorated, despite being a muslim, in Lohri etc by non-muslims. There is a lot to be learnt from this alone, I reckon.

Cheemay bhai, you said cousin marriages are cultural in Punjab...but there is no evidence Hindus practised cousin marriage in pre-islamic Punjab...e.g. Jatts don't marry with in the same tribe something that is still practised by jatt muslims in Punjab as is by jatt sikhs and hindus. how did this practice then start? we know some sikhs and hindus who lived in muslim majority areas of Punjab, baclochistan or NWF also started practicing cousin marriages. so that might look like cultural practice now if everyone in the town is doing it but its origin is not cultural.

Re: # 356

By the way, I don't have any authority to give anyone advice on theology, matters related to social sciences or anything else. If I thought that (which I didn't) I was wrong. I also want to make it clear that I am not here to defend one culture over another. I am only defending reason and that is not the property of one culture or civilisation but of mankind (sexist word, don't you think) at large.

I thought I should make it clear.

By the way, how many people committing a crime actually even get to the point of being taken to court in the Islamic Republic? There seem to be people taking bribes, stealing public property, destroying what belongs to the nation as whole, even raping and killing (one of my uncle's is a small town arms dealer! he got woken up one evening to supply ammunition to two separate parties in the nearby "pind", shooting at one another; he was, of course, delighted at the prospects! I am sure the Americans feel the same) and not so much as a call to the local police station made. Then one would ask what the police would have done if they WERE involved!....this could go on for ever; I am sure you are intelligent enough.

Re: # 222

I believe yor query is about this entry of yours. If I am wrong please let me know. I have been operating all day so a little worn out; forgive me if what comes out is a bit sloppy.

I have already answered your first question related to prevelance of first cousin marriages being a cultural peculiarity of Punjabis. My answer contained statistics from australia, related to the Lebanese Muslim community here; where I work, we have a strong Lebanese presence (largest Sunni Lebanese presence outside Lebanon) in West Sydney and being a doctor, I see the results of such unions day in day out; similar, though not through personal experience, experiences have been related to me by colleagues working in London areas with strong Bangladeshi, Egyptian and Somali communities. The Pakistani experience is personal too as I have worked in those areas of Birmingham.

As far as Ghazzali is concerned, I am not familiar with what you wrote; but Ghazzali is not who invented Islam, or is he? His observation is exactly that; an observation and comment as yours or mine. An interpretation, for want of a better word. Same applies to your suggestion that somehow Mr Jaffir Sadiq and Shah Wali-ul-llah are somehow undisputed "interpreters" of religious text; Their interpretation is again, for the second time, exactly that; THEIR interpretation.

Evolution: First a few facts that it occurs and I see evidence of it day after day. We are talking about a timescale of at least 3000 million years; do you know how many years that is. We have already seen examples of "human selection" with breeds of domesticated animals. We have bacteria (some of the simplest life forms) that develop resistence to antibiotics that, in the initial phases, used to kill them. It can virtually develop even after one dose of an antibiotic. We have marsupials in Australia that, genetically speaking, have common gene pools (hence ancestery) with land animals elsewhere (the deer and the kangaroo for example); yet due to geografical variations, they have evolved very differently. In humans, how would you explain "Sickle Cell Trait" in people who come from parts of Africa and mediterranean. It confirs resistence to Falciform Malaria and it had evolved during the course of very recent human history.

On a lighter note, in socio-cultural terms, this very website, look around you. It probably started as a small blog, by a handful of people, now it has "evolved" into a place where so many people are interacting and exchaning information. Substitute this concept with any other example around you; we see "simple" things becoming "complex" during the course of time. Man wasn't always this smart you know. There are still tribes, not just in Africa - that would have been an easy example though - in parts of micronesia and south pacific, along the northern and north-west coast of Australia that live in jungles, still practice cannbilism and have very little contact with the outside world. One such tribe was only recently "discovered" by an Australian explorer; when someone dies at a younger than usual age, that is considered "magic" and the "person held responsible" is identified by the aggrieved family member, which in the case of this documentary was a 9 year old by, and eventually eaten; to counter this "bad magic".

Now your question as to who may be, if any behind all this; I don't know. "It ain't me bro!" (a little joke, sorry). Ithought that was the same question "Is there a God?" rephrased a different way, is it not? Mahfari sahib (or is it sahiba? sorry a sincere query), I can't prove the presence or absence of a Negative! No one can. Bertrand Russel had this analogy of an "outer celestial teapot" (a teapot in outer universe. If I were to say that such teapot exists, can you prove me wrong? Of course not; you can try all you like, there is no way in this world you can. Yet we both know it is an absurd idea; don't we?

Another little example (may be not as good); We often say that God created the universe etc., made Adam and Eve and all the rest...Amen..What was there before that? we don't know really do we? But in essence, there has to be a point "in time - however you define it", when nothing else existed but God. So are we saying that his property of being a creator hadn't been realised at this stage. So we are talking about God - the would-be creator; that can't be God because his faculties aren't fulfilled yet and the un-fulfilled can't be God? or can it? Lets move on a bit. Suppose the argument that God is infinite, and has always existed, transcends time etc. etc... Where does the universe fit into all this? Has IT always existed as well? Does that mean it is God's twin? Isn't that shirk? - the biggest "crime" in faith terms (Islamic monotheistic perspective). Problemis, either the universe exists or god; NOT BOTH.

As Ghalib would say:
"Jabke tujh bi kuchh naheen maujood;
phhir yeh hangama aye khuda keya hai"

This is just to answer your insistence. at the end of the day, the onus of proof lies not on me to "disprove a negative, but for you to "prove a positive"; can you?

As far as your queries about India and Laddu are concerned, please feel free to ask Laddu what he means. You may have to wait his return for a couple of months though.

Re: # 354 Violence by choice or violence for the sake of violenceis condemnable and it can never be justified by any divine or human reasoning.

And you did not comment on hte questions of your 49 interact's answers...please doanswer after reading my interacts.

As to verses you have mentioned, they are part and parcel of Quran and they are toexhort thehuman beings to face the inevitable reality of violence when someone is bent upon destroying your identity and mere existance,and in self defence raising arms is inhuman? It isthe most humane aspect of human natureand bravery is not facing the realities,bravery is to facing uptohterealities? In entire life of Holy Prophet peace be upon him ,there werenot more than 1000 persons died from both sides as a result of struggle .... which as per your favourite evolutionary ideas was survival of the fittest!.... Even in the most so called civilized societies the violence hasnotbeen finished and it is a painful relaity.

I consider imprisonment of human beings as the worst form of violence and I merequote that in UK alone over 82000 prisoners are in jailsand in PUnjab whose population is many times more than UK's there are 100000 ( about) compare the ratio with populkation then you willknow the levelof violence and intolerance in the society and this is agaisnt the backdrop that in Pakistan the sytems is far more corrupt and shoddy one.


To fight for one'srights and survivalis not exhorting toviolence and It willneevr be, fight of people in Kosov, Chechenya' Palestine

Re: # 331

Zeemax, I really did mean truce, so Paaji, Jaan deyo hun.

Also, since you have previously explained about "bachpan say shauq..", I can't by definition be a murtid as I never consciously accepted faith in the first place; may be that may make it easier for us to get along.

Thanks; and I do mean it sincerely.

Re: # 333

Thanks; I did fall asleep so apologies.

Any society in the world is suspiscious of the "alien" whoever that might be. I have lived in the "east" and "west":, sometimes simultaneously due to my father's job etc., and I must say, the amount of intolerence I see within our beloved Pakistan has no comparison elsewhere. I am the first person in my family, for generations, that has "married out" to a "non-jatt" woman; perhaps a hangover from our cultural past, I don't know.

How are minorities treated in Pakistan? I won't make any comments of my own here.

Generally, despite 9/11, Muslims have been treated much more fairly than what would have happenend if the shoe was on the other foot. People are intrigued and they have every right to ask questions about something that can be capable of this much "divinely sanctioned" hatred towards the rest of humanity. How else would you "interpret" the violent verses in the Koran; and please don't say the same thing as "the Bible" does too; that doesn't make it allright.

As for Salman Rushdie, Kauser Niazi might have been a factor in Pakistan. The main protests and violent outbreaks were in the UK where I was living at the time; it was all organised and conducted by homegrowns.

As far the question of anti-semitism is concerned, it simply means not to kill jews for being jews. No one has stopped anyone from speaking their mind about Judaism itself; it remains open to critique as any other philosophical tradition. Personally I think Judaism has a lot to answer for; for a start it is the PRIME patriarchal, misogynistic, racist and anti-human philosophy; then, it has given birth to two illegitimate offshoots, only making matters worse for the last two millenia. Now that is "anti-judaism", not "anti-semitic". I don't want to kill anyone, jewish, christian, muslim, buddhist, hindu etc.

The very fact that all of us, of reasonably equivalent intelligence as humans, have diffrent interpretations (or lack) of the "divine" is a testament that one cannot make a system of conduct for the society at large based on a supposed divine providence. I mean, even the "believer" on this very small cross section of society don't see eye to eye on the most simple of things.

Re: # 350 take care!

Re: # 348 Dear it has alsoincreased inequality,blood shed,environmental degradation,if a medicine kills 70 persons and cures 30 is it advisable to use for 100 people?

in #349 the phrase in the last sentence should be "..the dictator should be kicked out.."

mahfari bro: nice chatting with you. have to go.

#347 unfortunately, our nwfp brothers had to learn the hard way that mullahs have nothing to offer other than big talk. but better late than never - i loved the statement by ANP leader yesterday (maslihat chahihay, beghairai nahin) as he stood shoulder-by-shoulder with nawaz sharif and zardari (i think the remark bolstered sharif's demand that the dictator not be kicked out of his illegal office as soon as possible, without compromises).

#345 globalization is a huge and complex issue with both fantastic opportunities and enormous problems.

so, it is simplistic to say it is good only for those already in power - e.g. globalization has turned virtually all of Asia and Latin America into rapidly developing economies that have changed the lives of billions (not millions) of people. otoh, globalization is changing the face of the planet itself- and we forget that humans on earth are like the thin film of bacteria on teeth, leading a precarious existence.

Re: # 346 They always understood and its making wasnot by these Mullahs itwasby educatedsoulsliekIqbal, Jinnah and others , but they were notcalled secualrsand they arenot but yes they were alsonot called Muslimsby Mullahs!

Mullahs are forceof status quo,not of change and perhapsof retrogression in some cases.But MMA did one good thing in NWFP that after death of a person the land share willautomatically transfer to daughters/women instad of forcible delivery to her brothers and male relatives as perthe cases.But it is very rarethat gooddeedslike this weredone.

#342 notice the composition of processions in pakistan:

when it is bs issues (cartoons, rushdie, some slight of islam by someone in the west) it is the mullahs in the lead.

when it is some issue of substance (as in the current struggle against dictatorship) it is those normally derided by mullahs as "secular" (lawyers being among them, plus human rights activists who are a favorite mullah target) who provide the lead.

Thank God the Pakistani awam has shown they understand the difference between bs and substance.

Re: # 343 Agreed on first part, but dear Globalization is exacerbating teh differnces and accentuating the ghetto thinking ,it is a threat to peace adn good only for global giants of rich and powerful.

It is against the human freedoms and ideals and localculturaldiversity,it is a power wiothout any direction.

Re: # 341 Agreed there stress is on rituals and they have taken position of papacy in Islamwhich has noplace here!

#340 what you say is true - but tell that to the hundreds of millions of fools who elevate the prophet and his descendants and acquiantances to the level of gods. fortunately, i think the problem will solve itself as a result of globalisation and the spread of rational thinking (this will sound like an optimist talking - but i think it is quite realistic).

Re: # 339 If he did it washis personal issuebut other I think is proven by the carefulstudy ofthis issue in Pakistan and if you remember there was a huge procession which reached uptoAmerican Embassy and BB government ordered firing and more than two peoplewerekilled and scores injured , but the damage had been done before thsi Salman's bopok wasknown to only a smallaudience afterthis he got a status of celeberity in West and of a Satan in MUslim wolrd. things have very strange bases!

#338 agreed. that is why maulvis are part of the problem, not part of the solution. since they ignore poverty and lack of education while pushing their agenda - rituals. rituals are merely another form of superstition that detract from constructive aspects of religion.

Re: # 337Thereis noplace forgroupsadn church like organizations in Islam. After Holy Prophet peace be upon him there is only one institution to be protected that is of family and allother things comeafetrwards.. but here things are different.

#336 if you tell me kausar niazi was the source of the rushdie fuss, then i believe you. i see know reason for you to make it up. btw, i once heard niazi doing the love talk loudly to a female in UK over the phone from the US. no kidding.

Re: # 335 I think the greatest issues of Muslimsare poverty and ignorance...and now a days another scourgeextremism..May Allah save us from all these!

to add to #335: and people dont need organized religion like the christian church or the various lashkars and religious groups in islam. rogues and thugs (aka priests) do as a way to avoid making living by providing some real value to society.

Re: # 334 My research proves thsi ,ifthere is different perspective ,then let me know!

#333 muslims are more important than islam (God does not need religion, people do). just as pakistanis are more important than pakistan.

Once we get this right, all this whining about some stupid cartoons will give way to what is really important - jobs and education for muslims. As the pakistani awam have also demonstrated through elections.

#332 mahfari: i did not realize that maulana kausar niazi started the fuss over the rushdie book (which ironically made rushdie a rich man due to vastly increased sales on what is actually a stupid and boring book).

as for kausar niazi, it is not for nothing that he was known as "maulana whiskey" - thus shooting down hamidm's theory that a whiskey lover cant be a mullah at the same time.

Re: # 329 Perhaps you are not awareof this issue of complexity and multidimensioanl approach about Holy Prophet peace be upon him.it is not a HAdd and it si Tazier ,that Judge shoulddecideasper the situation and in West there is deleberate attempt to invoke negative feelings and passions about Holy Prophet peace eb upon him and to taunt Muslims ...I think it is excess from both sides in many matters.

But the societies haev right to decideabout theriown goods and bads and no one can decide from outside to determine that howshould localsocietioes develop and live... it is theei own choice.

Why anti-Semitism is a legal offence in West and Europe? If it can be applied on the bases of histroy m,then why other societies can not make theri own laws as to their own identity? In your words why this cherry picking? Is alldiscrimination for mUslims only? is,nt it racism? Is,nt it injustice? have courage and answer these questions aND also think over the answersto your questions and feelfree to ask more !

Re: # 329 You have certain very very deep inferiority complextversus the society where you live ,I mean in an alien culture and what is the purpose in celeberating the New YEar?ForChristians it is a pagan festivaladjusted with Christmas,and in China they ahev theier own NEw Year forMuslismthe most celeberated and happy events are Eids... Do you rememeber them or lost theri memories also?

As to question of Salamn Rushdie is concerned facst are different and perhapsmind boggling also,this issue was stirred by late Kauser Niazi in 1988-89 when PPP came to power afetr death of Zia and Benazir Bhutto many stalwarts of PPP out of power,Kauser Niazi hoped to grab some post in BB regime but tono avail,then he wrote an articlein daily Jang and he first time raised the isseu of Salman Rushdie and he quoted and translated some portions in the article and it was picked upby Mullahs fro personal agendas and also by Iranian clergy and then it was buzz word in Islamic world and further many persons came forward to offer moneyt for this Salman Rushdie .

It was motivated with personal agenda and personal greed and it was a politicalissue where religion was used forpersonal goals. Ever heard this perspective?

akcheema,

I think you're an idiot because you make the same arguments as the hindoo monkeys do. That's below even the 101 stage. Come up with something new if you really want to have an argument.

Re: # 328

I don't think I ever offered a peace-making deal between the two. I am pretty certain they are best of friends off-line; same as I have religious-minded friends from my past.

I really don't know why everyone on this site thinks I am that dumb!

I'll just go to bed I think

Re: # 327

Thanks for highlighting the incoherence of my answers. The entire edifice falls down when one doesn't believe in the super-natural.

Can I ask why Salman Rushdie had a fatwa against him? (I know you would suggest it was all down to the Iranian Shiite sect and nothing to do with Sunni "mainsteam" Islam; but just walk with me for a minute!please). Did it have something to do with "gustakhi-e-rasool"? Is that what you think? Absolutely not!

We have, between us, said all sorts of things about our beloved prophet(pbuh) and his camel!(sorry hamidm2) and no one has flinched so much! That had nothing to do with it.

The reason the whole of "Muslim Ummah" was enraged was that it struck at the "very foundation" of what this cult is based on! Without Mohammed, there is no cult, no allah and his mailman gabby (sorry hamidm2 again) and the rest. The same reaction against this, more recent, "Danish Cartoon Scandal" was for the same reason. Exactly the same after "Pope's repetition of the Byzantian Emperor Paliologos's statement" about the "prophet of Islam's achievements".

All of these strike at the heart of basic, fundamental muslim mythology and that is what is painful. People insult God all the time, be it in the non-muslim or the muslim world; covertly or openly; It is never the insult of god himself but that of Mohammed that the muslims are unhappy about! Can you answer why?

If Mohammed was that dear to God - his best pal - I am sure he can sort things out himself to redeem his mate's honour and all those innocent lives lost could be spared! Is that too much to ask in this era of Information Technology?! May be we can all club together and get god the latest in IT/Broadband, whatever he wants (afterall,there are more that 6 billion of us around the world!) and he can get the news of his beloved's dis-honour and sort it out(as we say in Aussie!); then he can, perhaps with a bit of luck, leave the rest of us alone. Is that too much to ask from "the Creator of the Universe"?!

What do the "Sunnis" do at the beginning of Muharram? Fireworks (Shab-e-barat), Kite flying(Basant); what celebratory means are deployed to welcome the New Year for the entire 1.2 billion members of the "great" Muslim Ummah around the world?

#326 Akcheema:

Hamidm has an open invitation to free drinks (booze, tap water or mecca-cola - whatever you prefer) to all (including zeemax) who enter the Great State of Michigan.

So, dont worry about hostilities betwen hamidm and zeemax. use your peace-making talents where it is needed in places like the middle east.

Re: # 298 That mourning is not accepted by majority of Muslims and it wasinitiated in presenmt form by fatmid s in 927 AD and it is not a fundamentalcreed.

As to my answerto interact 49 the questions are in built and they areanswer toyour doubts,if you can accept that these arfedoubts.

Your answers lack coherence and consistency I raised questions about destiny and ideasof Quran and they logically flow from your ideas...and questioning is basis of knowledge.If you can question then it si all right, if soem oneother does then it is not tothe point.Learn to discuss with ratioanland logic and stick tothe questiosn araised and take debate to new points instead of wayward answers please!

Re: # 325

I know Hamid sahib. I am not here to make enemies. I invite both yourself and Zeemax (whatever that is by the sound of things!) to be friends. And by the way, I don't know if I told you this secret; I don't think I am an idiot. But Zeemax does believe so. May be I can make him change his mind! just may be.....

Re: # 323

cheema sahib,

..... unlike others on this site - urstruly, et al - zeemax is an armchair jihadi who after eating nine hundred mice and sowing all his wild oats has found religion ..... he is a victim of this insidious islamic 'revival' that is spreading like chicken flu .... inshallah, he will recover from this condition before he develops cllouses on his ankles and the death mark appears on his forehead ......

Re: # 309

Hi there,

I don't have any hang ups like that any way. The snow may "piggle away" that is not what worries me; I am sure your "battle" is no different!

Haey mein mar jawan.. eh te bolda e naeen...sap teh naeen sung geya?......

Re: # 321

All this time! zee zee.., and I thought we had something special..... you braek my heart!... oh! the pain, the betrayal..... what could I do... this hamidm, what does he have that I don't?....common.... I bet the Aussies do it better.... try us out mate and you'd never go back to "the Great Satan"...common....give us a chance....that's not fair....and I thought....oh the pain...

akcheema,

My only Murtid friend is hamidm who is gladly producing kaneezes. I've even promised to eventually save him from the guillotines. You Sir, are lower down the rank even amongst murtids.

Re: # 319

Common Zeemax, are we mates yet? I know you want to..(By the way mate is Aussie means friend.... no hanky panky!...)

Re: # 317

And what the "eff" (is that the right way to spell it sir?) are you doing visiting "the Great Satan"; Atlanta, Georgia of all places. Allah Maafi!... Ki zamaana aa gayaa aye baee...

Re: # 317

I am deeply honoured Sir. The very fact that "usually" you don't waste your breath with "murtids", but would so graciously make an exception for "an idiot" like me, I don't know if I should lie down; the emotions are just so overwhelming..

#315 Posted by akcheema,

Yaar now stop talking like a sniveling moron. If you have any questions, ask them now and I'll answer them. Usually I don't waste my breath with murtids.

hamidm2,

LoL ... hamidm I'll be in Atlanta in a week or two. I'll buy you a drink if I stop in Detroit to meet some relatives!

Re: # 313

Sorry Sir, Mr Zeemax Sir, I forgot to put the question mark (?) at the end of the sentence. Am I forgiven? If so, can we get on with the question please? Its nearly 2 am where I live and sleep IS important to us mortals; contrary to your friend "THE ONE who neither nods nor sleeps"

Re: # 306

zeemax,

.... you fool! .... if i had a son (which luckily i don't, since he might have grown up to be like you) i would have had him circumcised even though i don't believe in it ..... why? ... because a) most boys in america are and i wouldn't want my son to be embarassed in the locker room with silly questions about his pee-pee and b) because it would have made my parents happy ...... when my kids were born i did not bother to bellow the azan into their ear and my parents knew it ... so when they went to pakistan for their first visit they made sure the girls heard the moon god's call to prayer and then promptly sacrificed a black bakra ...... i appreciated the festivities even though i felt sorry for the bakra ..... i am happy to report that the azan did not do any permanent damage .. alhamdolillah ......

#308 is a question?

Re: # 309

I'd be delighted mate. I don't have anything against the poor pig! He is "god's" creation afterall!

#309 Posted by hamidm2,

Great hamidm2. Teach this idiot to become a true and good cultural Muslim. Water carriers and flag bearers are always required ...

Re: # 307

By the way, I can recite Iqbal to you back to front matey! so don't even try. Answer the question put to you in 308

akcheema sahib,

..... as a 'cultural' muslim myself, let me assure you that it is very easy to do even though you loose some 'friends' along the way since they cannot come to your house because the palit pooch insists on jumping on their lap ... good riddance to bad rubbish, i say ......

.... being a cltural muslim is easy - eat biryani, talk in urdu, say 'alhamdolillah' when somebody sneezes or 'mashallah' when somebody farts, put on your pajamas twice a year and hand out money to kids ........ that's all it takes ..

.... but, your cultural affiliation will end with you ..... forget about your kids being cultural muslims - they will grow up to be like their heathen friends even though they like to eat biryani once in a while and sometimes say things like 'the snow is piggling outside' ......

Re: # 306

I only said they looked like your mate from the heavens. How did you know HE was circumcised!? Now now... I didn't think you were into that sort of thing Zeemax! Are we coming out of the closet here!

In any event, read the following and try to get what Allama Iqbal is saying.

This is the world view Muslims have. Everything else follows:

Bar tar az andesha-e-sood-O-ziyaan hay Zindagi
Hay kabhi Jaan aur kabhi tasleem-e-jaan hay Zindagi

Tu issay Paimaana-e-Imroz-O-fardaa say naa naap
Javedaan, Pehamm dawaan, Har damm jawaan hay Zindagi

Apni dunyaa aap peda kar agar zindoun main hay
Siir-e-Adam hay, zameer-e-kun fikaan hay Zindagi

Zindagaani ki haqeeqat Koh-kunn kay dil say pooch
Joo-e-sher-O-teesha-O-sang-e-giraan hay Zindagi

Bandagi main ghatt kay reh jaati hay ik joo-e-kamm aab
aur aazaadi main behr-e-bay karaan hay Zindagi

Aashkaaraa hay yeh apni quwwat-e-taskheer say
garchay ik mitti kay paikar main nihaan hay Zindagi

Qulzum-e-Hasti say Ubhraa hay tu maanind-e-Hubaab
Iss ziyaan khaanay main teraa imtehaan hay Zindagi

If you still have questions, put them in bullet points instead of long-winded rhetoric, and I'll answer them.

akcheema,

Hmm .. ok. So I have my answer. Since they are then they do have a religious identity and you're a liar and a hypocrite.

Listen. There're more senior apostates than you here who have proudly announced publicly on this site that there sons are NOT circumcised. Now that's courage of conviction which you never mustered.

Re: # 304

Come to think of it, their d...s look exactly the same as god's (take it HE is a HE); so must be....I remember a "first cousin" using the words "mirror image"...

#303 Posted by akcheema,

Answer the question. I repeat. Are your son/s circumcised?

Re: # 302

Whatever makes you happy my friend. The question, as I said, are unanswerable, not because they are clever but because of a lack of clear evidence of this god character you keep mentioning; or is he called allah now (may as well as the Pakistanis have gradually replaced Khuda Hafiz - centuries of persian connection with India, with Allah Hafiz - to appease their true masters I wonder?).

Why are you so intent on defending this god's honour? If he has any balls shouldn't he be fighting his own battles?

akcheema,

You said earlier " I have been a non-believer since I was 14/15 and never had time for the religious claptrap" ... so what answers do you want from me?

Aaap ka bachpan ka shauq hai ... ham kya kar saktey hain!

BTW nice to know you raise your children without any religious identity. Any sons? If yes, are they circumcised?

Re: # 300

Thanks; I really appreciate it. You are a decent human being Eklavya and a true student of knowledge, from what I have seen.

I am glad, and grateful, you didn't take that personally, but understood it as a purely 'general' argument.

You know, the HARDEST and by far the stupidest arguments to deal with are of the kind: "but me and my parents are not like that..."

So thanks for not taking that route. And so long as one is aware of the possibilities, one is obviously free to make any choices.

That is the best any of us can do, and sincere best wishes with your children, whatever you may want for them.

Re: # 297

Well said Eklavya, I am aware of this. I raise my children without any religious identity and if they choose to do stupid things on growing up, nothing I can do.

There is a slight distinction between culture and religion I think, you might disagree. That is why I mentioned "ethnic" for want of a better word really. Its obviously not an inherited trait as you know. I do talk to them about their thoughts on the subject, especially around Eid/Christmas etc; my 7 year old, presumably after hearing the story of "baby jesus" from a school pal came up to me and said that this whole story doesn't make any sense. I was intrigued so let her carry on. Then she asked me if there was a god to which my reply was that I didn't know. Then she said that if "someone" had made the universe, it would have been different to what it is now; in the sense that there shouldn't be any pain and suffering around. She even referred to parents loving their children, and if god was there and capable of doing something (which obviously he is meant to be), why would he not look after the poor, homeless, sick and needy. (These are the thoughts of a seven year old so guys please don't start writing in "refuting" anything; I, hereby, exempt Zeemax from this injunction!)

I try to let them develop their own thoughts rather than indoctrinating them into anything, including my own views. Its important to allow them to develop the "ability to think" without telling them "what to think".

I hope that addresses your concerns about my next generations turning out to be suicide bombers!

Re: # 295

Thanks Mafari, my reply was only after reading it. Rather than explaining anything, it sort of raised a lot of more questions. Anyway, enough said on the subject.

I knew someone would make exactly the sort of comment you made about the excerpt from "River out of Eden". I refer to No: 294.

Unfortunately the reality of the universe is such and undeniable. Since we are meant to be discussing things in a Sufi contest, I refer you to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan's Qawwali (written by my "garaeen" Mr Naaz Khailvi; actually Nusrat is Lyallpuri as well). I am sure you must have heard it "tum ek gorakh dhanda ho". Next time pay attention to the second last "band" that discusses "fitrat kay tazaadat", and see what you think. But what I am suggesting is exactly the opposite; I happen to be a very positive individual in general terms, I laugh, joke and have friends like everyone else. I love my family, respect my parents all that etc. My lack of belief in the supernatural has not had any influence on my thinking of how I approach things. I work hard, play hard, I am enthusiastic about learning and discovering new horizon etc. This life is what one makes of it essentially. At the end of the day we all die and I am not afraid of it; however I would prefer not to waste my life by being lynched by a mob of vigilantes.

And contrary to the impression I seem to have created, I don't want to force my views on anyone. This is an invitation to talk. People who have said that "no one has forced Islam on anyone"; Islam has spread solely by the sword, that history is so recent that it is hard to deny. No point pointing the finger and saying "they did it too"; this is about self-analysis as a group. I don't want to go on about it as it has mostly been said before.

On a lighter note, I am very positively surprised that there is a recognised distinction in Islamic culture between misery and joy! Given this is the only religio-cultural tradition I know whose New Year starts with 10 days of mourning (contrary to the celebratory nature of any other New Year I know; be it Jewish, Romano-christian, Chinese etc)!

Hey, not to imply that there are gun-carrying jihadis on chowk, but that if one is a 'liberal, cultural' Muslim then after a while, one would naturally detest evil non-Muslims.

Think of it as group karma. The conflict will catch up with you, sooner or later. And once that happens, your choices will become much clearer.

Unfortunately, it is not an individually fair world.

Cheema ji, 'cultural' memebership will not work the way one might expect.

There are unavoidable conflicts between two or more groups making radically different, fundamentally important, claims about logic and value, and seeking very different this worldly and next-worldly goals.

Those group-level conflicts will exist so long as contradictory claims about logic and value are publicly implied, made, and defended.

Try as we might, there is simply no way to 'individually' opt out of those conflicts as those conflicts become more and more recognized.

--------------------------

As a 'cultural member' you will get sqashed in the middle.

Ultimately, probably quite soon, you too will end up hating non-Muslims. And you, or your children, or grand-children will turn into genuine good Muslims.

LOL, I have visions of hamdim2's grand children running around in skull caps and burqas, and turning into actual gun-carrying jihadis against evil unbelievers :)

That is an unevitable, logical process. It happens exclusivly because of our various (group) affiliations, and it happens all the time, on chowk, and in real life.

Re: # 292 Please read my interact on answer to 49 this issue I specifically answered these questions!

Re: # 289 Yea when we live oin vaccum and are victim of less knoledge then this hopelessness and absurdity is our destiny... by our own choice!May Allah save us from despair!

Re: # 174

At the end of the day WE ARE ALL ATHEISTS!

Atheist was the term used by the Greeks/Romans for early Christians who were thought to be denying the existence of the gods of the ancients.

The difference between myself and some of the "believing" contributers here is actually very small. They deny the existence of, e.g., Brahma, Vishnu, Indra, Zeus, Apollo......I only believe in one less god than them.

And the reasons for not believing in him are exactly the same as their reasons for not believing in all the other gods.

Re: # 237

Zeemax: I still haven't seen any answers to my questions in No: 49. OK, I'll put you out of your misery, you can't. In fact no one can including me; I wrote down most of those when I was 12. So don't worry, you are off the hook.

Please feel free to invoke Advice No: 14 from my entry: 235; or one of the others of your chosing.

Re: # 272

Hi Eklavya,

I appreciate your comments and honesty; you could have fooled me! Unbeliever eh!

You are right in the sense that I AM part of a culture, hence an "ethnic Muslim". It is estimated that in Russia, almost 20% of the population belongs to this category. A prime example is Mr Marat Safin and his sister Dinara Safina(tennis). How else would you describe them? Both non-practicing and non-believing.

It is no different to having atheist-jews, atheist-hindus and so on. The very fact I show concern in these matters is a testament to that; so there, happy now!

As far as believing is concerned, it is a different matter altogether. I donot believe in a supernatural god as defined by traditional religions, be it Abrahamic or Hinduism or any other. Therefore, with this definition of god in mind I'd be very happy to say the following, despite your reluctance that "THERE IS NO GOD INCLUDING ALLAH" the moon-god; it does have a ring to it don't you think. As far as his self-proclaimed mate Mohammed and his son Jesus, they don't even come into it as the foundation for them simply doesn't exist.

I hope this clarification helps.

By the way, on "you don't even think like a muslim" remark; it is one of the nicest compliments I have had today; thank you!

Re 289:

sorry its Richard Dawkins

Re 281 (urstruly)

This is from a book by Richard, "River Out of Eden":

"The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference".

BREAKING NEWS

This is to inform all the chowkis that 1008 Shri Shri Laddu Gopal Maharaj ji would not be available for the next two months on the Chowk.
In case Pakistani Momeens would like to celebrate his unforeseen voluntary abscense as victory and a retribution of the angry moon god by distributing sweets then they should do that by distribution of Boondi ke Laddu.

Allahu!!

Re: # 286 No one is superior toany one while discussing,you want to reproduce em the oldinteracts, but it si off the track discussion . I am waiitng when you will complete your repetitive stock of liesand I willanswer it,if you have finishged your virile attacks then can I answer them or you ahev more poision in your heart and soul?

mahfri ji,

Gol mol mat keejie. Dekhiyee, saaf saaf baat kariye.
Jhooti mooti mein apne ko hooshiyaar mat samajhiye!!
Boorbak!!

Re: # 264 Bitter laddu do you remember our interacts on Buddhism issues when I referred to this and you vanished like gedhy ky ser say seeng!

Naqshu,

Ther exist heart purifying non-muslim tariqahs which would help take you to even deeper levels of thought and the 9 levels of existence. Ego-lessness never takes one to satan. There is no measuring instrument that can tell whether the experience of bliss is Angelic or Satanic. As your prophet said that good dreams are from Angels and bad dreams are from Satan - in the same way blissful eperiences can only be from Allah.
Whether an experience is angelic or not can only be inferred from the results it produces on the person and becomes evident from the manner, demeanor and character of the person who has successfully dissolved his ego before the divine. If it reinforces the ego and makes a person feel 'superior' to other humans and makes him undertake loot, plunder and rape then that experience is nothing but satanic.

Re: # 280

This is no lying. This is Exactly, the reverse-taquiyya that muslims cannot notice when they read the veiled kufr of the Sufis - much like the veil of "meem"/Maya.

Re: # 278

"The true aim of Islam is to purify the human heart and soul by means of the Path [tariqat/sufism] using the methodology of Shariah to enable one to experience the Divine whilst still alive. That is the secret behind the (seemingly) difficult rules of Shariah--they are a means --THE means--of purification of the self."

The "Ashtanga-Marga" or Eight Fold Path of Yoga that is accepted in Samkhya-Yoga Marga along with Sanyaas-Dharma or accepting Order of Renunciation is the most prescribed way in the Hindu religion to "purify" the Jiva or Human being from ignorance of reality or "Haqiqath.

There is nothing in the Sunnat that can "purify" one's heart . Only the 40 day Ramadam fasting with the Dhikr of Allah is beneficial- but these practices were all part of pre-Islamic Jahaliyat that Mohammad adapted in his Islam.
Purification of heart is done in Buddhist meditational practices in such a fantastic and scientific manner that only those who have practiced can experience the divinity of it.
And Jainism provides the most sophisticated of path /Marga through its systems of Anu-Vrta (Micro-fastings) and Higher Vrtas which go upto 14 days without water fastings in seclusion.
You have NO idea of the beauty of other paths because you would remain fixated by the fear of mullah's blood thirsty Allah that one gets overwhelmed by once you accept Sunnat.

So, reject Sunnat and explore other paths if you want to achieve the path of purification of heart!!

Unfortunately, I have never understood the concept of spirituality. I think it is nothing more than a state of mind which is created by the process of auto-suggestion. I think that God is Absolutely indifferent and we are at His mercy absolutely. I think people get hurt just to become an example for others and people are rewarded or blessed for the same reason. We must pass the tests every step of of the way to save ourselves from fire. I don't think there is anything more to it - in bigger scheme of things. We are absolutely insignificant.

btw i wasn't playing with words, i was pointing out to others your deliberate misquoting of Ibn Arabi to make your point--i.e. your lying.

which makes the heart like a polished mirror which then reflects and becomes an abode of The Divine.

because only a spiritually purified heart and soul can experience the Divine truly and the greatest disease of the heart and soul is unbelief [kufr]. The true aim of Islam is to purify the human heart and soul by means of the Path [tariqat/sufism] using the methodology of Shariah to enable one to experience the Divine whilst still alive. That is the secret behind the (seemingly) difficult rules of Shariah--they are a means --THE means--of purification of the self.

laddu,
i mean exactly that the states of consciousness achieved by non muslim ascetics by means of hardships which kill their Ego (nafs) do not benefit them in the sense of bringing them closer to Allah rather it brings them closer to Satan who gives them 'experiences' which they BELIEVE to be from the Divine but are actually from Satan.

Because sainthood is the highest achievable spiritual state and the lowest is to have imaan so how can someone achieve the highest without even the lowest?!

Re: # 273

"Shaykh al Akbar Ibn Arabi actually said, "The walayah of a Prophet is greater than his Prophethood" and NOT that every wali is greater than a Prophet!"

Naqshu,

Why are you playing with words. You say "..you have to believe in Islam to be a saint and have divinely inspired spiritual states as opposed to satanically inspired ones.".

Do you that mean that the "elevated states of conscious" of non-muslim ascetics would become "divinely" inspired just because they utter that stupid kalima?

You mean utterance of Kalima transforms the state of bliss from being called Satanic to Angelic?? What mullah nonsense is this?

Utterance of Kalima or banging head 5 times a day or praising a paedophile makes NO difference to the nature of divine bliss. This bliss is a state of consciousness that can never be touched or defiled by such stupid mullah enforced actions. It would remain bliss and hence "divine" even without Mohammad and his sword enforced kalima.

Divinity would continue to exist untouched by fallen Satans.

The great Sufi
Abū Yazīd (Bāyazīd) al-Bisţāmi rađiyAllāhu ánhu says:

‘We went to meet a man, who had become famous as a Friend of Allāh (waliy); and this person was very famous for his piety and reclusion. We tarried for a while; he came out of his house and went to the Mosque and [on the way] he spat towards the Qiblah.

I came back and I did not even bother to salute him. I said to myself: ‘This is a person who is not faithful to common decency and etiquette [adab] taught by RasūlAllāh şallAllāhu álayhi wa sallam, how can he be safe in what he claims?’

Risālah al-Qushayriyyah, pg.396.

And non-Muslim asectics can do all their exercises and achieve elevated states of conscious--even perform wondrous feats--but all these are, in their cases, what the Christian church call 'diabolic' --i.e. from the Devil because you have to believe in Islam to be a saint and have divinely inspired spiritual states as opposed to satanically inspired ones. This, of course, does not apply to those people who came before the advent of Islam.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

laddu is just a lying devil, a idolator and kafir of the lowest order--who can be lower than one who consistently insults the Messenger of Allah? Not out of ignorance but deliberately. But we await that Day when all shall meet their Maker--when no one will be able to help EXCEPT Muhammadur Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam for he has been given the maqaam of Shafa'at: intercession.

Just to mention ONE of his lies, Shaykh al Akbar Ibn Arabi actually said, "The walayah of a Prophet is greater than his Prophethood" and NOT that every wali is greater than a Prophet! Ibn Arabi was a Sunni and the aqida is that no non-prophet can be greater than a Prophet. As an expert on Law he would have known that--and he declares his orthodox aqidah in the beginning of his magnum opus al Futuhat al Makkiyah. For every Prophet is necessary a saint [wali] but not every wali is a Prophet.

infidels like laddu can fool the ignorant fools and murtads like hamidm--another hater of the Prophet whose mockery shall be thrown in his face on Judgement Day!--but they cannot weasel their way amongst those with even an iota of knowledge of Islam.

Even well-known Islam haters like Bernard Lewis and Martin Amis acknowledge the greatness of the Prophet and his unmatched spirituality.

In the name of Jesus/Ram/Hanuman and everyone else acceptable to you, please, now, laddu. Can we just let that be? :)

Thanks in advance.

Actually the real negation of the kalima is this -

I BELIEVE that "There is no God called Allah and Mohammad is not his Prophet"

Re: # 269

cheers!!!

lol, for my friend laddu. May he find peace! :)

""And I certainly do not BELIEVE if Muhammad is Allah's messanger."

Look, no taquiyya! No sufism. Hope THIS issue is finally settled.

Cheers.

hamidm:

"congratulations ! .... how come you two didn't invite me ?"

...because they were not serving any meat.

Re: # 263

"And I certainly do not know if Muhammad is his or her or their messanger or not."

Now this is a spin - because we are NOT talking about your "knowledge" of Mohammad but about your "Belief" in him.

Repeat this statement as under and oblige please-

""And I certainly do not BELIEVE if Muhammad is Allah's messanger."

thanks

Re: # 263

"How can I 'negate the kalima' when I never ever accepted it in the first place. "

To negate the kalima you do not have to accept it in the first place. I do not get your logic? It is like saying that to deny the existence of Buraq you have to believe in him!!

hamidm #250 Thanks for the tips. However, I dont recall ever having to "defend" Islam from normal people in real life. Only hindus on chowk who hate Islam, Muslims, and Pakistan with equal fervor; and yourself and few other Pakistanis who are only too happy to hand over Islam to be defined by hearded troglodytes, ignoring your own common sense.

And so far, I have not heard anything convincing from either you or the hindu fanatics on chowk who are as impervious to reason as maulvis.

Re: # 259

"..f Dr tara Chand.Itwas specific to LAddu.He will remember it that is the reason he did not answer!"

Where does Dr. Tara Chand enter in the discussion? And what is your point specific in the context of that charlatan, paedophile, murderer and rapist being superior to the rest of sufis??

laddu, why do you persist in misunderstanding/not believing me? I have NEVER tried the taquiyya stuff, or tried to come across as something I am not. I am an unbeliever, and an ex-Hindu as well, if Hinduism means all religions are the same, everyone's the same, the earth and the mars are the same, and totally goofy, utterly illogical stuff like that.

How can I 'negate the kalima' when I never ever accepted it in the first place. That is NOT my belief. Still, just to satisfy you, because there is really no need for anyone to misunderstand anyone or anything else: I do not know if there is God, one God, or twentyfive Gods. And I certainly do not know if Muhammad is his or her or their messanger or not. Isn't that what an unbeliever basically is? Hopefully, you will have resolution on this score now.

This is after all such a small thing once we decide to not focus on individuals and persons.

Re: # 49 I love to know that you have thirst to propbe the very foundationsof htis religion,Islam,the msot Modern religion of Wolrd .

As to your anguish regarding differnt understanding of the same concept,then diversity is in nature and every perwson has his or her own leevl of understanding . it is liek reading of same text bookand being taught by smae teacher and having differnent understanding and grades. Millions of apples and not asinglepairofequal taste and shape. The undesrtanding flows from inside and htese basic differnct understanding are perceptions and when they are ratioanlly discussedthey they becoem concepts and Islam conceptually is one and singleentity fromAdam to Muhamamd peace be upon him,but perceptions vary at lower and initial leevl and this shows lack of lessknowledge by the person not limit of idea.If we can not understand the ideait si our limitation not the limitation of idea!

As to contadictions in the quran, be specificand qquote any example ,then we can discuss it in that regard.

As to free will,it has its limits and frontiers,like it is beyond our free willtochoose gender,parents,place of birth,and death timing but we choose our ideas,careers and friends and eating habits etc.It isnot for eevry item undersun,it has itsown directions and stresses.

Free willis not preordained as iqbalsays Allah ahs created yourforehead free ,write ith with yourown action!Alldepends upon intent and actions and free willis fro actions ,there willnot be any question that where wereyou boirn or whowereyopur parents,the accountability is of freechoices we make throughout life!Lauh e Mahfouz doesnot makechocies for us ,it contains allthe posssiblechoices we can make ornot make.It is Creator'sgrasp of knowledge and allknowing !

The completion of Deen is to basic three fundamentals,Tauheed and other ideaswillkeepon studied and explored as the abilitiesadn potentials of individual.

The fianlaty is of divine Guidance and trust of Allh on the sensesof human beings to maketheirown decisions and it is the freedom which has evoved fromAdam toMuhamamd peace be upon him!It is evolved over thousands ofyears,and not a processof accident or blind evolution!

Re: # 248 It was in context,others ahev theriown point of view.Do not always search your own mnaings, try to live with differnce also.

Re: # 248 It was in context,others ahev theriown point of view.Do not always search your own mnaings, try to live with differnce also.