Bullhe Shah and His Veil of “Meem”

nahi, akcheema bhai, just a lowly unbeliever, trying to understand faith exactly as it is, nothing added, nothing removed.

akcheema,

People like you take your cue from the hindoo monkeys, get heartened by the western Islamophobes, and then set off happily in the direction of "How to become a Murtid-101" and "Islam Bashing for Dummies".

Get a life. What you're looking for is confirmation of your convictions courtesy Ali Sina, and not the essence of religion. That's all that your auqaat is.

Take your #192. You say " ... off he goes with his son to sacrifice him to his master ... "

Abey, why did you not contemplate on the part (as the Genesis story goes) in how he got those sons in the first place in his 90s? Did you miss that part? Was it really Abraham's son he was willing to sacrifice? Or was it a Gift from God which when asked to return, he was willing to do?

But you won't go that far because that's going beyond the Murtid-101 for dummies.

Next you say:

"... poor, unsuspecting animals are sacrificed each year on "Eid-ul-Adha" in commemoration of this deplorable fairytale."

Abey! You poor unsuspecting animal worshipper, if you're willing to sacrifice those poor unsuspecting creatures for your cooking pot everyday, what's your problem with others sacrificing them for commemoration of some event they hold sacred?

But I must give you credit for heartening and encouraging the other Murtids on this site, that their quest has not been in vain and they do get new recruits everyday!

But it is disappointing to note that Kaal Chakra has declined my request to explain to you who the water-carriers and the flag-bearers are, who will grudgingly trudge along battered and bruised and kicking and screaming, and be counted amongst the numbers, and provide essential services to the Vanguard, but will never leave the fold of Islam and join anything else.

Above, my dear, is the Caravan which is Islam. And above, is who you are.

Re # 210

Blah...Blah...Blah..Blah

How do you know he was 90? Because the Bible said so! That is what I mean about your rhetoric mate!

The answer to your cooking animals in pots for my dinner; I am a committed vegetarian.

Re # 209

One is not a lowly anything Eklavya; I came across this from Dan Baker's book, "loosing faith in faith": Enjoy!

"You are an intelligent human being. Your life is valuable for its own sake. You are not second-class in the universe, deriving meaning and purpose from some other mind. You are not inherently evil—you are inherently human, possessing the positive rational potential to help make this a world of morality, peace and joy. Trust yourself".
–Dan Barker, from his book, Losing Faith in Faith

#211 Posted by akcheema,

How do you know he was 90? Because the Bible said so!

So you're willing to believe Abraham sacrificed his sons because the scriptures say so, but not willing to believe he was 90+ because the same scriptures say so?

Now you're really cornered. Run for help from the head-murtid hamidm or your other admirer SR. You're too green my friend.

... that's exactly what I meant by seeking confirmation and nothing else. Thanks for proving me right!

Re: "The answer to your cooking animals in pots for my dinner; I am a committed vegetarian."

Who the eff is talking about your eating habits here? Not me.

If you can't defend your statements, go jump in a lake or whichever woodwork you crawled out from!

akcheema: I patiently await your thoughts on my response to the question you posed. Or are you looking only for straw men like ibrahim uncle to pick on?

Re: # 215

If you wnat to have this whole religious thing and believe/interpret allegorically, that is fine. That is exactly what I am talking about. All I am saying is that no one should be able to force this on others via legal codes etc. Problem with our society is that small minded individuals have been making laws, hanging people for blasphemy and related offences, subjugating women and the like..the list is endless.. This is what we are fighting not some 90 year old delinquent's personal affairs! that historically speaking, probably never existed in the first place.

Re # 214

I mentioned my eating habits because of your rant about me cooking animals in the pot for my dinner! I think I have answered your questions more than satisfactorily.

Just as I thought; Pride without substance! what a tragedy!

#216 i am not sure what it is that one believes "allegorically". I did not write about any allegories - what i am stressing is to focus on the core message - e.g. hanging people for blasphemy is obviously wrong. so those who hang people for blasphemy, or support such a practice, are violating the Quran. its all quite simple. the bells and whistles are supersitions, not islam. the below-mentioned core message is islam.

zee, I refuse nothing from you except that which cannot be done for whatever reasons for a time being :)

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Wasn't sure if too many people were ready to grapple with the concept of Islam's water carriers and flag bearers. Just too many good people will refuse to listen :(

I will adopt a simpler tack, first. It doesn't do full justice, but might get the sense across.

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akcheema ji, nothing is gained by getting upset. These are the issues over which reasonable people can easily approach some agreement, if they look at all facts.

The beauty and the power (should use quotes for those words because some people will not see the beauty or the power) of Islam lies in the enormous freedom it provides within.

ALL it asks is that

(1) you call yourself a Muslim (does not matter what sort), at least for 'public' purposes. You should add to the 'total numbers' - that is the most important, in fact the ONLY thing that counts, if you also

(2) do not (or are not allowed to) publicly condemn/abuse the Quran (Prophet Muhammad too, but for now, let's not get into that).

It may be 'tolerable' to hide behind the Internet but in real life, your friends, your family, your acquaintances, or just the stranger on the street MUST be able to put a strict limit on your ability to condemn/Question the Quran/Prophet Muhammad.

So long as you do that, Islam has NO problem with you. You can say or do anything you want (hopefully within legal limits if those legal limits do not contradict divine injunctions).

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Now comes the most interesting part. You might THINK you got away with taquiyya giri by simply calling yourself a Muslim, and keeping quiet (even if that silence is forced upon you) about the Quran/Propeht Muhammad.

But no! Once you do those two things, Islam has totally got your number!! Over the long-term you and your taquiyya giri mean nothing, other than just a resource for Islam. :)

You can be used happily, and become a Jihadi (most ignorant people, my chowk experience tells me, tend to be the biggest and 'blindest' jihadis, in their own silly, but very effective, ways :)).

or you can be used kicking and crying about it. Islam will use you and will spit you out as worthless cud. :)

In every case, like it or not, so long as you have the name, you will carry the flag, and nothing else.

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Hopefully, I did not explain the basic parameters of Islamic 'freedom and the limit' too offensively. That was probably as gentle as one gets. :(

Re: # 217

If you are asking me to "accept" your version of the "core message", then the answer is a big NO!! That goes against the basic concept of freedom of speech. It may be all very well having anonymised philosophical discussions online, reality on the ground is very different!

Now, for the purpose of a constitutiona and legal code, I DONOT accept any other authority than the collective conscience of the human race. Of course there will be some geographical variations in this but the "core message" is a democratic, liberal and accommodating system that is based on the principles of social justice. You cannot find that when a bunch a theocrats are in charge; take the example of Iran; yeah yeah,.. they are shiites and the sunnis are much better!! or are they. Which Islam would you impose on the other and how would you define this "core"? By what standards would you cherry pick the Quranic Ayas that don't appeal to you but might to someone else?

If something is from god/allah etc., it has to be impeccable. There is no room for ambiguity here; it seems this book (Koran) does not meet these criteria. Now people are talking about "core messages: here. I repeat myself: Who would define this core? You, Zeemax, Eklavya?

This was about Sufism but seems to be turning into a discussion in theology. The BEAUTY of man-made laws is exactly that; they can be changed when the situation is right. Divine law is unchangeable, and as I gather from Eklavya's writings, un-challengeable as well.

By the way, in one's personal life, if one wants to believe in a sky fairy because it gives one some comfort, or present it with ritualistic animal sacrifices, I have already agreed with that in principle. Just don't expect people with abilities to analyse and think rationally to just swallow it on your hunch that it might be true!

Problem with Islam is it has always, either had a majority culture or it was the domineering force through history. With the colonial empires (which was no better or worse that what the muslims did before that), they were subjugated in abig way. There is a lot of inferiority complex which often expresses itself as delusions of grandeur. The reason people won't stop ranting about "Glorious Muslim Spain" is that it gives them an ego boost and a sense of self-worth; the world today has practically nothing useful with a muslim name attached to it; the only thing they can do is blow themselves up to "assert" domination. Its sour grapes!! nothing else.

I hope this answers your query.

Re # 218

I am not even sure what to make of this huge collection of words; what are you trying to say? Is it some sort of a code? Why don't we invite Mohammed Asad to de-code it! He apparently did a good job with the Koran!

Eklavya, I have never been rude/angry to you so I don't know how you got that impression. Where in my previous writings did I express the wish to be part of this cult?! You seem to have confused the concept of cultural solidarity with belief and I have already addressed that before.

Your definition of a muslim is very broad and has never been the "standard definition" in the muslim world throughout history. Are Ahmedis, Ismailis, Bahaais muslim as well?

Re: # 218

"..but in real life, your friends, your family, your acquaintances, or just the stranger on the street MUST be able to put a strict limit on your ability to condemn/Question the Quran/Prophet Muhammad."

Hey, I object to this fascist remark. As an idolator whose forefathers were murdered brutally by Mohammad and his followers since ages I STRONGLY object to some momeen like Kaale Khan trying to supress my voice and objection.
I have a perfectly valid reason to call for the trial of this rascal and his followers for brutal genocide of my idolator forefathers in Arabia as well as Indian subcontinent.

Re: # 218

"Hopefully, I did not explain the basic parameters of Islamic 'freedom and the limit' too offensively. That was probably as gentle as one gets. :("
Hey, your Islamist veiled threats do not scare most of us. Try something like wearing a suicide belt........

Re: # 192ithas been very interesting debates except some below the belt attacks.

I have some different poitn of views,to share with you all, genetics is present and modern knowledge of twentieth century and it tells that gene pool is reduced when cousin marriages are celeberated. But i read an intersting thing in Al-Ghazzali's Tehzeeb Ahyaal Alum in Chapter on MArriage and conditions for marriage that avoid mariages between cousins and it is a hadith albeit zaeef( zaeef menas chain was missing and content needs to be checked on the bases of rationality)... so which scientific knowledeg developed this idea of not marrying cousins soem 1400 years ago? It deos not matter whther it was practiced 100 % or not but except Punjab it is practiced that Muslims avoid cousin marriages !

Furhter more why Indians are bent upon always to check things on the bases of theri own terms and consdier themselves the msot educated ones on the surface of earth from times immemorial?

As to use of technical terms by Laddu how will we adjsut the sayings of 14th century Saints of Spain and many saints of India that feeling lost in Ultimate reality is the first stage of the lowest level of spiritual journey and there are furhter many many stages of thsi journey?

As to circular thinking I rememebr saying of imam Jafer Sadiq Ra that Allah created reason first of all and shah Wali Alalh that without reason and Hikmat all laws on the name of religion are farce and islamic Shariah's basic thrust on rational and reason instead of blind following is stressed so much , but here it is treated as a blind belief?how to reconcilethis with historical facts and truths?

As to evolution's beauty , how can we determine that genetic mutation is by chance and it is not directed or determined by certain proportion of chemicals and eleemnts?

I wait answers of these points then we can move further. I hope to get answers not confusion and abuses!

I am repeating htis for you, I thought friends will be able to read this and connect with theri debate , but it has not happened so I am making it specically addressed now to writer of this interact.

#219 akcheema: sit down and catch your breath. close your eyes..think of a tropical beach, with palm trees gently waving in the wind...breathe in. hold..hold...breathe out..aaaaaahhhhhh!!

now where were we..oh yes. the core message. no i am not making it up - if the Quran says that "those who believe in God and the Judgement Day and do good they have nothing to fear" then I believe that.

And where does the Quran tell you to have a theocratic state? does the Quran talk about the protocol for prophetic succession? does it say anywhere that if black smoke comes out the mullahs are still figuring out the next prophet, and if white smoke comes out the mullahs have it figured out? so never let me see you rant again about this theocratic state or mullah rule!! go back and read the Quran like a man, not like a parrot. Then come talk to me!

Re: # 197 read my interact please.