Drama of Succession - Pakistan People’s Party

Majumdar,

Thanks.

You may be well aware that my blaming the other side is a tit for tat to the kind of abuse and baseless accusations levelled from the Indian side. I am only showing you that I can make an even stronge case.

But for what its worth, all historians are now in agreement that it was Lord Mountbatten's hasty withdrawal as well as his deliberate obfuscation on the boundary commission award that was responsible for the violence. He was warned against it by Jinnah and Gandhi several times. As Wolpert writes in his "Shameful flight" ... "had mountbatten listened to India's wisest leaders Quaid-e-Azam and Mahatma much of the bloodshed could have been avoided". I don't agree with his characterization of Gandhi as the wisest leader, but I for one don't impeach Gandhi's intentions like Indians impeach Jinnah's ... even though we know full well that Jinnah was by far the most scrupulous and incorruptible politician of them all.

I hope that clarifies my point.

Re: # 144

How about substantiating your claim ... instead of making statements which are not rooted in reality.

Santani when you develop brains enough to argue with me then we can talk, the fact is that minorities and people from the lower socioeconomic classes are disproportionaltely staffed in those figting on the front lines, casualties even when the draf was instituted were disproportionate among the African Americans and even the members of the non-elite upper classes that get drafted can easily dodge it, or get cushy positions. American contribution to WW2 by the number of soldiers was miniscuel and still most of those doing the dying disproportionaltely, were those that were even denied full citizenship and segregated even in war, the African Americans- nothing of this nature was practiced by the Arabs in the Arab Israeli wars, US society changed after WW2 to where the elite consolidated the spoils, class based representation in the US military is very much pronounced and only a fool with your kind of dumb mentality will deny it..now go F yourself.

Manto writes : "How about substantiating your claim ... instead of making statements which are not rooted in reality."

Every post of mine is substantiated with reasons given, otherwise I do not make a post. I don't have to quote a western source because I don't think they are authorities on our history and I am not a third rate slave of them like Santani (the pig face-his words). You cannot deny that MAJ was the face of the Pakistani partition and its rhetoric, which caused bloodshed, you nor any western name can deny that. You cannot deny that PPP due to ZAB became a political force, nationwide, a real voice of the people. You cannot deny these basic facts, asking me to substantiate them is like asking why 1+1 is 2- substantiate this, fool.

IN #147 read "American contribution to WW2 by the number of soldiers was miniscuel and still most of those doing the dying disproportionaltely, were those that were even denied full citizenship"

as

"American contribution to WW2 by the number of soldiers killedwas miniscuel and still most of those doing the dying disproportionaltely, were those that were even denied full citizenship

Masadi,

My friend, you've not produced a single logical argument other than declare victory again and again without debating point by point. Other than regurgitating rhetorical bravado, you seriously have not even made an effort to enter into a dialogue or discussion. Now either you know what you've written is nonsense or you are oblivious to this fact. If it is the latter I pity you.

PS: So don't quote a western source. How about Indian sources? From the leftist JNU? Or H M Seervai? or Shashi Tharoor? SK Majumdar (no relation to our good friend here I am told)? Raj Mohan Gandhi the grandson of Mohandas Gandhi himself ... Sumit Sarkar? Or even your divine Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's countless essays on Pakistan and its creation...

And if they are lying for some weird reason... how about Ayesha Jalal? Is there anyone good enough for you?

A lesson on WW2 for the fool who is posting on it:

(quote)The U.S. government imposed military conscription in 1940 and got the draft machinery moving early in 1942. Between 1940 and 1944, the size of the military increased by almost 11 million people. Of the 16 million people who were in uniform at some time during World War II, fully 10 million were conscripted. (For more on this, see Robert Higgs, "Wartime Prosperity? A Reassessment of the U.S. Economy in the 1940s.") In other words, they had "jobs" because the alternative was jail. And many of the 6 million who volunteered were what military manpower economists call "draft-induced." One can hardly judge people to be better off, based on their having jobs, if they were forced into these jobs.(end quote)David Henderson, "The Myth of US prosperity during WW2).

Manto when I'm talking about the well know indisputed facts of very recent history, you don't need to quote authorities though I have done quite a bit of that regarding the writings of ZAB. IT is like asking me for an authority quote to "prove" that Benazir was killed. Come on are you so pathetic in the face of these posts that this is the best you can come up with? And you expect us to believe you BS just because you throw a western name up, and you want to take away from the supreme political achievements of a man based on some dinner and chicken story? and say that his foolish daughter was somehow a greater leader than him. You're becomming immoral and idiotic by the minute, give it up or you and Anil will be in the same boat of retards.

Re: # 140

May concur with your views on Gandhi BUT does not change the fact J man was not the secular dude you potray to be.

J was a loser till Islam khatre main.

Sanatani

Masadi,

(Taiwan and South Korea became "big" because of heavy state protection, nationalization is just a slight difference.)

That is certainly true, even the French and Germans protected the domestic industry in 19th century against British comptt but I beg to differ that that means natioanlisation or state ownership of resources. And why cud ZAB not just provide protection to domestic industry rather than ruin it by wholesale natioanlisation.

(Land reform has to do with society and creating conditions and laws for it)

And what indeed did ZAB do to create conditions for radical changes? Packing his PPP with feudals, making a genocidal general like Tikka Khan his Defence Minister?

(The institutions created or incepted by the ZAB was the non existant political one)

Civilian Martial Law and the Political Cell of ISI being prime examples.

(where the people of Pakistan for the very first time had an avenue for a say)

They had no say in 1971-77 as much as they have sadly had no say in the rest of their history.

(the sentiments created by the partition makes him responsible for the massacres that occurred.)

Hindu-Muslim differences had cropped up long before MAJ (pbuh)came up with the Partition demand. But that needs a whole FP article not this thread.

(it is more difficult to manage and control and use by proxy due to its size and diversity for ulterior motive)

Residual India is by no means a small or non-diverse state so why did not Brits split (residual) India into even smaller parts.

( division and rule has been one of the very favourite formulas of the colonial elite)

Of course that is true.

(like I said you're a fake)

Just because you hold a diff POV does not make you a fake. I realise that about you, I hope one day you too will realise about people who disagree with you.

Regards

re: Leadenwinter

Your article stated the problems well, but then lost focus when it swooned over the military's role in Pakistan.

That one lapse of reason, a failure to judge the military on past its performance and but only on its future intentions, was the Achilles' Heel of your article. An objective analysis should judge the situation on the basis of a documented past record and from that record, to infer a conclusion. Your article clearly showcased the problems/issues in Pakistan, but then again; did what was done in the past - state the problem but never offer a probable solution. :)

Secondly, analysis of this sort generally contains an element of a solution embedded within the article, which has a realistic probability of happening, but your article did not have that element and as a result, came across as stilted and one of grandstanding.

Ciao

I suppose "indisputed" is a new category of "Facts" masadi style.

May God- if there is one- help you. Good night.

Sanatani,

Lets put it this way. He was more secular than the rest including your Congress walas, with the possible exception of Jawaharlal Nehru who had other issues.

re: Masadi

I had a conversation, today, with a US elite. He was not really an elite, as he was only 5'5" tall and had black hair, which was thinning. He was wearing faded, torn, jeans and a plaid shirt, open-buttoned not tucked in. He looked like an unemployed college student. I think that he was wearing Timberlands, which also happen to be my favorites.

Then, I realized how crafty the US elite were and so, I acessed my iPhone and opened my notes on Mills, which I alway carry with me like the picture of Vladamir Lenin, which is the screen saver on my iPhone. The US elite lied to me; they said I was a peon of the west! I immediately, took the US elite's picture and emailed it, using my WLAN access, to the all newspapers in the world. I had to warn the people about these dangerous cameleons, who pretend to be the saviors of the world only to leech its' blood as Mills has so wisely predicted.

I now see the error of my ways. I have seen the light of the coming of the Lord and His Truth shall trample the vintage, where the grapes of the US elites' lies are sown, as Mills had predicted.

Lo! Behold! The US elites are really the Romans, who killed Christ! One day when Jesus was strolling along the shores of the Dead Sea with Mary Madeleine, he accidently stumbled and fell. Looking at what tripped him, Jesus saw some scrolls and when he read them, he realized that they were the primary drafts of Mills' new book and realizing their worth, he buried them in a cave.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were Mills warning the world that the Romans were the US elites and to keep their secret, the Romans framed Jesus as the king of Jews and killed him! O' tradedy! Howl! Howl! Howl! Howl! Howl!

Mills was right! I was wrong! You were right! The world is flat! The sky is green and tangerines are purple, Papa Smurf is the Grandmidget of the US elites and Jimi Hendrix still rocks around the clock!

Ciao

Majumdar writes "And why cud ZAB not just provide protection to domestic industry rather than ruin it by wholesale natioanlisation."

Because unlike the state help "wealthfare" that helps industrialists alone, ones that were leeching off the people, nationalization ensures workers rights, while ensuring the benefits of protection of infant industries.

The rest of your "points" and nonsense especially since no civilian leader in Pakistan, even the most powerful among them, could have had a free hand inspite of the military and feudals to carry out whatever little he was able to achieve laying the foundations of a people's movement in Pakistan...


Feroz: nice cock and bull story. Tahmed already made one up as did Hamid in order to discredit my very valid points and well researched empirical analysis on the elite by people who have more "brains" in their toe than you have in your entire linage ten generations past. Constructing straw men like this, just tells me the sorry state of your ability to refute your opponent...

Masadi sahib,

Wud u say that the average Korean or Tiawanese worker is worse off than the average worker of a pro-natioanlisation developing nation (if such a nation exists).

Regards