Drama of Succession - Pakistan People’s Party

Re: # 44

Massaddi Mian:

"...They conquer you because they dominate global institutions under which you have to operate,..."

This is so naive. You only demonstrate the bankruptcy of mind when you make statements like these.

Re: # 48

Anil,

It is not the concept of Ummah, which is a problem but elite orthodox Islamic Clerics are the problem. Anything new and away from their interpretation is considered heresy, and they are making it more and more difficult for the moderates to be heard. Further, due to one reason or another they are in league with rulers of muslim countries. In the last as far as common muslim is concerned, like laymen of any country, he doesn't dare to go against them..

Re: # 47

bhatti sahib,

.... oh, okay ..... if you mean masadi is a source of misery, i agree with you ....... i feel sorry for his friends and family and others who might be exposed to him ..... but please don't call him an intellectual, the man has the intellect of a taliban's jackass ...... the man is obsessed with the paris hilton, nicole ritchie and other members of the us elite ....... he also believes that microsoft, with its cadre of hindoo coders, and pepsi, which is run by a hindoo devi, are conspiring to ruin the dairy business in mandi bahauddin .........

Re: # 51

hamid sahib,

Have you ever met a new poet who has written his first piece? Some time, he/she just can't get out of the meter in which they have written their first peice, and are stuck there forever. or if i say in urdu, un ka kafia waheen phans jaata hay.

In the same way, some people get so much impressed from one particular angle of looking at things, that its end of them. I have seen masadi profile. Perhaps his favourite book will give you some idea.......

Re: # 50

Bhatti Sahib:

"...orthodox Islamic Clerics..."

However you may like to name this group.
Don't you think, they are born out of "Ummah", and use it? What if freedom of individuality is emphasized, instead, what may happen?

Re: # 53

Anil,

What do you understand by Ummah? I think there is some misunderstanding there. Please post your message. I will reply tomorrow, as it is midnight where I live. So, byeeee

krbhatti: You write "I live in GCC, and have visited all the big and fancy cities here, where everything is available because of big money. Imagine anything from Russian girls to aero planes, you'll find here. But go to the biggest book shop here, it is equal to any average shop in Urdu bazaar, Lahore."

I noticed the same lack of bookshops and the same plethora of "nouveau riche" items like entire shops dedicated to perfumes and an entire shopping center dedicated to jewelry in Jeddah...a few miles from Mecca!! And I too was struck by the fact that just saddar bazaar alone in Rawalpindi has far more book shops than all of jeddah (where in fact I couldnt find any). It was refreshing to go from the cheap, showy and jahil arab city to London - where Heathrow Terminal 4 alone has more bookshops than Jeddah.

Another reason Pakistanis should stop looking towards stupid arabs for guidance, and look to the west instead if they wish to move forward.

Re: # 54

Bhatti Sahib:


Ummah, as I see, is pan-Islamic identity imposed over disparate people. Only thing that has came closest to it in recent times was International Socialists. Another Ummah, which spread SU thinner and thinner until Reagan could up the ante and provide the end game. There was a time; hardcore communists all over the world would vouch as international socialist.

What indeed pass through such “pan-“ identities are red-necks and their messages. Finally it gives that final reason, to act “in the name of…..” Fill it with whatever you want.

Why would you want to glorify these red-necks with “Orthodox Islamic Clerics”? Call them for who they are, hate filled, angry and scared people. They would see a snake (= elites for some) in distant fields, and miss out the a rose in their hand.

All societies have vulnerable groups, disparate pan-Islamic Ummah included. They are ready fodder for the “pan-“ identities, and get hooked like afeemchies. Yes, these afeem sellers are red-necks who have their running dogs.

Please think, if it is not the red-necks and their messages, what is there is for bright kids to chase their dreams among caves and red-necks instead. May be it is generational trauma that Islamic societies must go through, like the west went through in 60s.

Injustice has probably been longer with us than the justice. Injustice must done first for someone to seek justice.

Why Tahmed Sahib’s message does not reach them?

I am ready to accept that Hamidm Sahib is way over the hill and still preaching, like an energizer preacher?

Why would someone behead Daniel Pearl, when he could be graduating from London School of Economics and pursuing a successful career? This person could have had everything, yet lost it among red-necks in the mosques and college corridors. And now probably forever would rot in some jail in Pakistan. Why? Is it because he saw and probably still does see, in injustice done in this Ummah, a strong reason to give his life up. What makes a suicide bomber traded the life for 72 houris, or whatever else, other than a cause in the messages delivered by red-necks.

I can certainly write more, Bhatti Sahib. There is a complete hopelessness in the situation that does not fill beautiful minds with dream, and instead give them reason to announce Summa Cum Laude after showing the best from their vocabulary.

That is why I suggested to Hamidm Sahib to have shorter memories, as the age arrives, else someone will be living in his dream retirement home in Islamabad.

bhatti writes "So Sir, even if the institutional grip of west is strong, you can't fight them unless you have the knowledge and resources to challenge them, and for that you need to overcome your own weakness viz. mental stagnation and weakness."

That is where ignorant peons of the West have it wrong. They tell us pull up your socks and you will suceed and the average Pakistani does that and works his butt off and then finds himself at the same (no lower due to inflation and what not) level than before. Global issues of the economic condition of dependence of the Third World, traced to the long history of colonization, cannot be fixed as personal troubles of individual responsibility. Only fools or those that want to perpetuate our misery say that. We need to breakaway from the institutional grip of the Western elite, their economic and social systems that encircle us and ensure that we remain in the subordiante position that they assign us in that system. There is no other solution, globalization is "more of the same" integration into a system of winners and losers where the losers are humanity and the winners a tiny group of Western elite and the thugs that support them

Anil (the wannabe from Harvard who can scarce write a decent sentence in English) writes "Massaddi Mian:

"...They conquer you because they dominate global institutions under which you have to operate,..."

This is so naive. You only demonstrate the bankruptcy of mind when you make statements like these. "

What is so naive in this, you want to tell me that the global economy is dominated by chaprasees from India? Or that the global military network of hundreds of bases is controlled by Kuwait? Or maybe you want to tell me that world finances and global institutions like the IMF and WB are run by Nigerians or that Pakistanis make decisions of consequence in the WTO.

What is naive is your ignorance of the fact that you have a brain of a rat and an email address from harvard to prove you attended Harvard Business school when your english is Hindlish at best...

Re: # 56

Anil,

Ummah in its simple form means simply a community, or a nation. Its a generic term that can be applied to any community or nation. In the Islamic context, it is used to refer to the community of muslims throughout the world. It is nothing but the term to refer to the whole mass of muslim populace throughout the world. For me even EU in itself is a form of Ummah. So it has no relation to the religion. If I remember correctly, the Jews and pagans combined were identified as ummah during the convenant of madina between newly formed islamic state and them (jews +pagans).

Just like any community there has to be a common factor which is responsbile for the coming together. In case of modern state, it could be religious, ethnic, geographical etc. Just like in case of EU it is european identity; similarly in case of islamic ummah, it is religion.

So, any person who takes any cause which has a bearing upon those factors which form the basis of community will have a ready audience in all the ummah irrespective of geography. For example, an ummah can also be said to exist of people beleiving in gay rights. So, if a person who is a gay says something which is relevant to all gays, he will find ready auduence everywhere in the world.

So, ummah is just another word for community or naion or a large social group. Outsiders get confused by its use, which is nothing but muslims habit to use arabic nomenclature.

Further, this phenomenon of having various communities or nations is a very natural one.

I think now you can see these two factors (ummah and orthodox clerics) as two distinct entities. So, problem lies with these clerics not the ummah. Ummah is just a term for a nation.

tahmed peon of the West writes "I noticed the same lack of bookshops..."

The fool visits an airport, sees a bookshop, compares it to the garbage being sold at Heathrow airport and says, Pakistan is lost. This is the mentality of these snakes that worship the West- a West following which, and not the Arabs by any means, you don't see Pakistani youth roaming around in Arabic dress as much as you see they in Western clothes listening to Western Music and imitating everything decadent in Western society. The fact that misses this ignoramus is that books are not what is needed now (even though Muslim book houses in the Medieval ages outdid anything the West produced in that age). What we need is basic nutrition, health care, and jobs to sustain and manage families, education comes later than this or is bound to fail. When the Pakistan Army - a US occupation force, indigineously staffed, has ensured that public services remain at a rudimentary level- then you cannot expect the public to grow, when a viable state institution does not exist, the public cannot grow and get educated REGARDLESS of the gazillion book stores you set up....Now go __ yourself!

In #60 read "This is the mentality of these snakes that worship the West- a West following which, and not the Arabs by any means, you don't see Pakistani youth roaming around in Arabic dress as much as you see they in Western clothes listening to Western Music and imitating everything decadent in Western society" as

This is the mentality of these snakes that worship the West- a West following which, and not the Arabs by any means, you don't see Pakistani youth roaming around in Arabic dress as much as you see they in Western clothes listening to Western Music and imitating everything decadent in Western society, we have got to the position we are at

Yaar Masadi,

Are you discussing it with us here or are venting out your frustration.

If you are discussing, then please avoid derogatory remarks as everyone has a right to his/her own opinion, and you have to respect that.

If you are just venting out your frustrations, please inform us. I will not reply then because then there is no need to.

KR

I think there is a real opportunity for the PPP to grow up and mature.

As a PPP Voter and supporter, I must say that BB was a far greater leader than Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who was an opportunist of the worst kind, despite his finer talents.

ZAB's role in the "ex-communication" of the Ahmadi community- the most patriotic Pakistani community, forced as it was by considerations other than his own beliefs, will forever be a blot on PPP's name.

PPP must undo the mistakes of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and return to the creed of J A Rahim.

Yar Manto,

Institutions need to be greater than personalities, but what I am seeing here after BB's death is utter chaos. I don't know if BB was greater than ZAB or not, and frankly I don't see any merit in this question. For me the litmus paper test is whether after BB, can PPP survive as an institution by promoting culture of openness and inclusiveness coupled with merit or not. Till now they have not. Because, if not educated people will distance themselves from the party...

As far as J Rahim is concerned; can you tell me more about him. I have just heard his name. I would be obliged...