American Muslims and Presidential Elections 2008

"These are challenging times for Muslims around the world for more than one reason but from challenges sometimes triumphs can come to fruition as well. Post 9/11 Muslims living in the west were under severe scrutiny. Some of it was probably justified but mostly it was paranoiac & reactionary which in some instances resulted in oppressive & unfair treatment.

But by & large Muslims that follow the law of the land & live in peace are still more prosperous, freer in practicing their religion & enjoy more civil liberties in west than in some so called Muslim countries. If you doubt that than you wouldn’t be able to explain an absence of any mass migration of Muslims from west to their native lands, on the contrary, given the dismal human-rights condition & corruption throughout the Muslim world, immigration to west is still the most attractive & lucrative game in the business. Another fact that is interesting & its something that I have iterated on these same pages before is that every year 20,000 Americans are converting to Islam, most of who are women. So if west was truly threatening to the religion of Islam than I think they should have done something to curb this phenomenon. That’s not to say that everything is hunky dory in Washington. I don't, & 73% Americans don't either so I have a little company."

Absolutely in agreement with the foregoing having experienced the fourth decade of existence in the land of free

"Disagreeing with American foreign policies doesn't really mean that you are against 'us'. That stupid train has thankfully left the station & hopefully it won’t return in Nov. 2008. Please understand that most likely the next president of USA would probably be someone who is not too hot about current American Foreign policy so American Muslims should not be afraid about their discontent & should be vocal about their angst at the American foreign policy."

while remaining optimistic with reference to above, this is where there are some reservations and don't believe that people addressed here should be blindsided because the grass appears greener than it really may be

As anyone should be optimistic & hopeful & so are the core Republicans, there is cause for concern keeping in mind that certain cliques in addition to the AIPAC in USA that are up to a lot more than one can think of, while they are also crafty & creative in manipulating & mutilating the affairs of US & well equipped in concealing the truth to portray themes in the manner they would like the common & quite innocent people of the land to visualize, not to mention they also have a great support from within the media the legislature, executive & the judiciary if not entirely.

It is no hidden matter now that, a lot has gone in the preparations to become attack & invade Afghanistan & then prepare a case & invade Iraq as well as there is a lot in works & happening to strike Iran which is a long term massive plan of those neocon cliques of which the current regime is a sole part of not just a puppet; while at home a lot has been done to prepare for incarcerating masses of people in concentration &/or internment camps, the most favored outfit of Haliburton & it's subsidiary which was previously owned & operated by Lady Johnson (widow of Pres. Johnson) has been busy as they secured an uncontested contract. One would ask what is the legitimate reason for building & renovating of so many prison camps all over USA & why are so many Non-Republicans pointing a finger towards such a project undertaken by the current regime?

One would hate to think of the worst however something is up the sleeves & in works & people should at the least be cautious without panicking since, this is a matter of serious concern & there are too many ideas flying around such preparations.

Since the appearance of this particular issue I personally feel concerned not about myself but about those next generations of ours and their off-springs who are still in infancy or will be born in the future.

I am not sure if the author is aware of such crafty projects that are being worked upon however, in case the esteemed author is not aware I would sincerely recommend a research on his part.

I find myself in agreement with the author for the most part except, the concerns as described, as this is my, my children's and my grand-children's homeland and I feel very proud on the level of Islam held & practiced in this land as compared to other so-called Islamic countries for whom I pray that Allah SWT blesses all of those with appropriate wisdom and vision with true spirits in accordance with the true message of Allah SWT and as conveyed by our beloved Prophet(PBUH) ameen.

JazakAllah

Tauheed, it is better for you not to write if you're doing to write to make a damn fool of yourself...

masadi: but seriously - are you really so stupid as to think that i had to read your last two posts in order to know that they would be a bunch of abuses, false accusations, lies, hypocrisy? Or do you merely act stupid?

#166 masadi: That was very good. (applause). Write more often. :-)

tahmed writes "attempt to get attention to your otherwise barren posts"

Let me ask your unholy shallowness a simple question. You start by saying that you don't read my posts and end by saying that they are "barren" How in hell do you know that if you don't read them, liar! Then you calim I am insulting in my posts and yet your entire post is insult after insult multiplied. Like I said this snake is a lying hypocrite with the morals of a pig and the intellect of a rat, he might try all kinds of fluff to mask his dirty stench but somehow it always come through pungent and strong....

Re: # 164

Hamza sahib:

Darn it... Hamza, you missed it. Now you may have to stand it a very very long line for a very very long line. In the mean time it can be a very good idea, don't you think, to respect women folks.

Anil, r u related to bipasha basu by any chance?

Re: # 160

Hamza:

"...an equal opportunity abuser..."

You gave me the first laugh of the day, you can have your first wish of the day.

Shukriya viqar bhai..zarra nawazi hay aapki...

Re: # 152 Bravo, Abu bayTa. Well said.

Zeena bibi is a tremendous lady of many talents. As you said, she is a good hard working woman who, I am sure, has a dream for this world (most of us do). Dreams of different people do differ; nothing unusual about that.

But your point in not sucking up to cliques and fraternties on Chowk (or anywhere else for that matter) is worth its weight in gold.

I hope you'd NEVER change :-).

Anil its highly presumptuous of you to suggest that i talk down to women. I talk down to stupidity, men or women doesnt matter. I have been an equal opportunity abuser. I will say it again that zeena is right about many things but in my opinion she is wrong about obama, hilary represents status-quo, i hate status-quo when its oppressive. she has taken money from lobbyist, bama hasnt. As a muslim shes in bed AIPAC, like i said i m not expecting wholesale changes in middle east policy from obama either..but i reckon hes a lesser evil. I said it before ill say it again, if Pakistan remains this picture of uncertainty and chaos, where whoever has the biggest gun can fire chief justice, appoint citizens of usa who couldnt win a local body election in pakistan and make them PM, where we will sell our sovereignty, lives of our own citizens and national interest for the right amount, than forget obama, winnie the pooh will bomb pakistan. If u dont want pakistan bombed than pakistan needs to have some semblance of order where army isnt running amok. If pakistani people have a stake in there own country and they are content with thier rulers ..i assure you no one will be able to bomb pakistan.

Re: # 158
Zeena:

re; Don't you agree that poor folks do well when are given fair chance?

Yes, sometimes, absolutely. Sometimes all it takes is not even a 'chance', just 'stop beating me down.' Folks often do well when free to do so.

Sometimes we beat ourselves down, with despair. But, other times, it is an actual tyrant, or tyrant at the head of some mob or group of thugs, or just mean, nasty folks. That is when we need to count on the decency of each other, that is when 'a kinder mob' is the only hope we've got on earth.

Someone told me once, 'You can only for sure change yourself.' We only get a little bit of time, that may not be enough to change the whole world.

Someone also told me once, "It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it."

Apparently, you can't always listen to people, especially on the in-ter-net.

We can't escape the following, when it comes to the whole world: "on average, we're average." We need to forgive ourselves for that which we can't change, and just take this chance, this miracle that was given to us as a gift.

We must also forgive ourselves for being imperfect, and simply strive to always do our best. That has to be enough, because that is all we can do.

best,
FGB

And anil jii
Yes, poverty is like an infectious disease running through generations. But don't you think this is like a generalization?

What about those extremely poor folks who came out of their poverty via struggle?

Don't you agree that poor folks do well when are given fair chance?

#153 anil jii
Yes, I agree with your view on poverty. I always say this loud right from my childhood," All humans are born equal, then why they're not given equal chance to prosper?"

Trust me, even now it makes me extremely sad when I see all this unjustice and unfairness in global society. But, then this world is a sad reality where cruel prospers and poors are always on the receiving end.

Then who'll change this world? the way it is.....

#146 Posted by tahmed32
tahmed jii
Yes, I totally agree with you on this. You see, this is the sad dillemma with Pakistan, exclusively.

All Pakis are obsessed with religion and always project Islam, Islam and Islam.....in their words 24/7.

But, when you see the actual Pakistani society, everything is just opposite of Islam. Starting from Elite class and going down to poor class, every one is involved in some sort of corruption.......

And this is more disturbing for me, when corruption becomes the main stream culture and becomes completely acceptable in Paki society.

Yes, all those corrupt generals, politicians, feudals and others in Pakistan have had committed this serious crime of making a very good top class country called Pakistan in to a corrupt dunk with chaos......sigh*

And tahmed it is this kind of mind set in Pakistan that is obsessed with twisted kind of Islam(mullahism) which is also responsible in the current chaotic situation.

And if you see Paki society, it is largely hijacked by Mullahs, Army generals and feduals...All of them are insincere, incompetent and corrupt...And that's sad, deeply sad.....

Re: # 149

Thank you, tahmed32.

It is a little ironic that you characterized my post as "muslims hate the west": that was in fact exactly how I originally phrased the question when I was in Bangladesh! As in, "Why do.."

But, my hosts corrected me. These were Bangladesh naval officers at Chittagong Harbor Naval Base. Admittedly, maybe not a scientific survey. They said, from memory: "Muslim world does not hate the West. The Muslim World fears and loathes the West..." and then went on to explain the 'powerful state unguided by morality' reason.

I agree, it is a fine distinction between "hate" and "fear and loathe" but they explicitely corrected me on this point. I took that to mean that the distinction was important to them.

re "9/11: This was the culmination of a decade-long provocations by ben laden to the US. You need to consider what caused ben laden to engage in this plot."

I wouldn't dare to presume, I don't know the man. There are way too many crazy theories about, from bored radicalized playboy millionaire to miffed rebuked defender of The Kingdom in 90' to 'wedge driver' to holy war ignitor to self proclaimed reclaimaint saviour of the new empire, RECONQUISTA - 7? 8?.

Sadly, it could just be megalomania run amok. America has enough of its own bored nuts to worry about, he's mainly given them something to fuss over. Since he killed those 3000 people, Americans have killed over 240,000 of each other on the highways over nothing more important than the really good Italian Ice across town, and that pile of senseless carnage doesnt make page 8 of the local paper.

(Drive carefully by the way!)

America was bending over backwards ignoring him for a whole decade. It must have been infuriating, I guess. He mainly provided an excuse for a bored nation to clumsily go to war, and clumsily it did. Not a shining moment for any of the adults involved, on any side of the conflict.

Re;Middle east: This is the long-running feud that is best understood as a land feud lasting generations (in the tradition of the hatfields and mccoys feud).

True 'dat. It is a kind of an impossible 'one bone, two dogs' problem. (It could be three dogs, but one of them is tired.) No wise King in sight to resolve this one. If this was the M.E. of America, America would have long ago turned the contested area into a relgious amusement park, 'Holyland' -- where children of all religions would gleefully ride animatronic re-enactments of past events for a buck. Of course, that crass commercialism would desecrate the HolyLand...whereas, blowing up those same children apparently does not.

Thank you.

Best regards,
FGB

hamza
You see now you don't spare me b/c I showed you the exact mirror of your self righteousness and hilarious thing is , here you're wasting your time for some nonsense issue , frankly which is not even any issue....who is more incoherent?

I don't even interact with you b/c right from the start I knew you're not my type...your kind of mind set is absolutely NO, NO for my kind.

But, always to my surprise even though you always undermine me by calling me doll , sweet lady blah, blah, blah and then you drag me down by undermining my views on any issue , still you waste your PRECIOUS time in opening threads about me and in responding to my posts which are never directed to you....LOL

Who is proving himself more INCOHERENT here? Just think about it.

Whenever I come up with anything, you always start your personal attacks on me.....if you think I am not intelligent like you're then you shouldn't attack me personally , you should ignore my posts and views.

You should focus more on Sharia, on sexist remarks for other stranger ladies on chowk, on fighting with Indian Hindus and calling maan behen gaalian as you always do.

I don't wish to interact with a sexist and bigot like you.

And I request you to mind your own business and move on. From my side I will never interact with a chauvenistic sexist like you.

And I am disappointed that some Pakistanis have your typical mind set and that makes me more sad to see such a jack ass attitude on annonymous web sites....

And please, try not to patronize me in any way...Just leash your self and learn to respect others views as well.

Re: # 145

Zeena:

Persons like you will be able to change Hamza sahibs or his next generation. Just don't give up on them. I highly doubt you will ever tolerate your son talking down his sisters. That is where you will tackle not Hamza but their perpetuation.

My point in support of Hamza, was only about poverty being inherited from generation to generation. It is a social disease, as bad as AIDS virus.

This has infected white coal mining towns of Wales in Britain to Appalachians , Blue Mountains in Carolinas, to African-American ghettos in developing countries. Among hindus, they are even exalted and worshiped (somewhere in Bihar) as Daridra (poor) Narayan (god). Many social scientists studied this passing of poverty from generation to generation. Believe it or not, destruction of family unit, perpetuation of single parenthood without knowledge of who and where the father is has a lot to do than the color. This documentary that I saw had traced a guy called Noddy (very white) in Wales and the effect of generational poverty.

Zeena jee ..u have praised me incessantly in the past. And i have appreciated it. However what you seem to want in return is endorsement of your lunacies, which i have respectfully denied. I keep saying that you are a good woman, i am sure you are a great doctor as well, you have told us that you are a world class marathon runner, and i believe that. You have not given me any reason to believe that you are a smart woman when it comes to politics or common sense, and i say it how i see it. My apologies for that but i try not to become part of a fraternity of chow where i have to support my frat. brothers on all there stupidities. I have been there and done that, but i am trying to grow out of that.

majumdar: the point of my post is that the rich go free in Pakistan while the poor are punished for theft. so please re-evaluate your comment.

Yes zeena we know you are never on chowk and we are all losers for being here. I am sure ur daddy sent over a chottaa in jahayz so he could respond on ur behalf on chowk while u r saving the world out there...that would explain the comical errors in grammar and incoherency ...but i digress. Please understand that i have never said that I am Einstein, merely suggesting that you are a little bit out of your league when you are discussing these complex matters.

It would be futile to discuss the highly sophisticated judicial process of Shariah. I will tell you that Omer RAW suspended the punishment for stealing while there was famine in the land, state wasnt able to provide employment opportunities and basic necessities to ALL its citizens so it suspended some of the punishments, there is no cookie-cutter, ready to serve Islamic justice, cases are heard, evidence is presented and if it is determined that someone was steeling because they had a baby dying out of hunger than i assure u the thief is not sent to the gallows.

In principle, unemployment has to be 0% in order to enforce the punishment of qatay-yad(chopping off hands). Islam doesnt enforce punishments in a vacuum, please dont get confused with what happens in saudi arabia, for the most part it isnt Islam, at least not the kind i believe in.

FGB #147 The concept that "muslims hate the west" which underlies your post is too general and vague to be meaningful. You need to focus on specific instances, e.g.:

9/11: This was the culmination of a decade-long provocations by ben laden to the US. You need to consider what caused ben laden to engage in this plot.

Middle east: This is the long-running feud that is best understood as a land feud lasting generations (in the tradition of the hatfields and mccoys feud). Not in the tradition of the european pogroms of jews (which has been a european disease, and jews have in fact lived peacefully in muslim-controlled lands for centuries without being harassed the way they were in europe).

Iraq war: Muslims are no different than the millions of americans who are similarly appalled by the gross mismanagment of the war by Bush's incompetent leadership.

Hope this helps.

Abu bhai,

Many US Pakis/Injuns/Asians and immigrants from other developing nations are from humble/middle class background who have done well in US in spite of being a minority becuase of their own hard work and desire to have a better living there.

Tahmed sahib,

Theft is theft irrespective of whether it is committed by a poor person or rich person. Both shud be punished, esp the rich thieves first.

Regards

You said: "This is still a good country. By and large it won't threaten your freedoms and your rights as a citizen as long as you don’t break the law of the land."

One of the laws of the land is its 1st Amendment, the first of its individual Bill of Rights. It says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Some have said, this means that the secular American gov't the state, is officialy, in writing, unguided by any morality, no matter what religious freedom its people have. It is, officially, not a theocracy, not guided by morality, and therefore, must be feared and loathed and mistrusted by those living in theocracies or defacto theocracies.

Is the very form of American government, this 1st Amendment, a part of the cause of mistrust, between thw Muslim world(excuse me for using that too simple term) and the secular West? I mean, to what extent, if any, do religious leaders in Pakistan, Iran, regard the very form of American government as a political threat to their own context?

I ask this question, because I once asked of it in Bangladash, in Dhaka and Chittagong, and my hosts told me they had been taught from an early age that America was officially, in writing, a state without morality, something to be feared and loathed. I know Bangladesh is nominally a secular nation, not an Islamic Republic, but in fact, it is a defacto Islamic republic, in the sense of influence and ability to declare Hartal to prove who is really running the nation.

If the 1st Amendment itself is a problem that influences the relationship between America and the Muslim world, then it is safe to say that Americans are largely unaware of this aspect. I mean, AMericans understand the 1st Amendment, but may not understand its impact on how America is viewed.

I understqand this may not even be an issue, I don't know the truth of this, I am asking for others opinion.

best,
FGB

Zeena #144: I agree that in muslim countries no one will say "oh, well this person is from a poor background and that's why he stole"

However, they will say "oh, well this person is from a rich or powerful background and that's why he stole". And so we have wealthy loan defaulters, corrupt bureaucrats, military generals abusing their power, and so on.

Think about it.

#142 anil
Well, for you humza makes sense in his post. For me this guy is only proving himself more of a self righteous and also sexist.

I have been observing this guy and have come to this conclusion that he is gender biased and sexist and that's sad......

Anyway, I am not here to make my own case. This board is about American politics, not about Humza_Yousufzai's childish and naive views. Although Humza is a doll and sweet young teen with a brain which is a tremendous source of knowledge that all of us, women seem to be lacking( only in his view)...And think about it, when someone says such chauvenistic things , what kind of stuff he is? Big question mark.

If I don't agree with this guy, that makes me less of a knowledgeable....And if I say, yes, yes, yes to his pearls of wisdom then he will consider me intelligent. Quite intelligent and sensible approach with such a narrow mindedness.....

And also Humza
In real Islam, there is NO place for criminals regardless of their background.

If you committ any crime and you're caught red handed, in Islam they won't say ,"oh, well this person is from a poor background and that's why he stole".

Just think about it.

Hamza Yusafzai jii

As expected you are always very sharp in religious and political issues....Exactly, that's what I am pointing out.
And that's what self righteousness is....

Thank God I remain humble and I don't brag like you do and trust me that's the main point to deal with one's absurdness when that particular person have no insight and have no clue what he is talking about.

I don't have that much time like you to come and discuss some useless issues 24/7...........that doesn't make me or others less of knowledgeable.

That makes you more naive and innocent when you make this case about me without even knowing my view or me.

Now, look at this blunt childish(excuse me) statement that you made as always nothing new....
[[u n i both and most of pakistanis on these boards hail from that elite class that has been sucking the life out of the 90% of working class, one blood drop at a time.]]]

My husband and I are working really hard daily in USA for earning our daily livings. Same goes back when I was in Pakistan, my mother was an educationest and my father was a high court bar at law(attorney) who always worked hard with honesty and integrity(although my father was also from a feudal family , owner of many lands, but, he never sucked blood of any poor peasant)

Rather my family always believes in going forward and help troubled population more. But, sorry if anyone is a criminal I can't give him/her the benefit of doubt.....
That's me.

and I don't consider my self from any elite class. I am a middle class in USA and I was middle class in Pakistan.

Re: # 140

Hamza sahib:

Your post makes a lot of sense, other than when you call Zeena - a doll. Please recognize and respect this too.

#139 Posted by Zeena on February 13, 2008 4:43:42 pm


not only that I have seen htem on well fare and driving BMWs


why don't you go on well fare..then the government will give you a BMW too..they'll even throw in an added payment for your mental disability...

Zeena jee aap too naraz hii hogayeen. I maintain that u r a well meaning lady. You are not too sharp when it comes to politics, religion etc. but u r a good person regardless. You have no idea about the social dynamics and realities of growing up in projects. you wouldnt be able to understand how poverty and desperation are handed down for generations as ancestral property. In most instances its almost impossible to turn out anything but a criminal when u grow up in these circumstances. I am not saying it justifies there crime, all's i am saying is that u n i can never have any idea what its like to grow up poor. people who drive 50,000 dollar cars and are on welfare might be an exception, they are not the rule. I despise those who are born in money and prosperity at the expense of others way more than petty thieves, with all due respect ...u n i both and most of pakistanis on these boards hail from that elite class that has been sucking the life out of the 90% of working class, one blood drop at a time.

Also Ease up on giving us your resume
...theres a saying..nayki kar darya mein daal..other than that u r a doll.

Re:-#133 Hamza_yusufzai sahib
With all due respect, you posted that don't take me seriously b/c in your opinion I am just an old sweet lady with No brains and with no knowledge on any issue...

That's OK with me, b/c I don't wish you to be like minded on any of such issues. If, you think I am not knowledgeable enough for your higher set intellectual standards, then my only request for your genius mind is to ignore an old sweet lady and don't waste your precious time on my posts and move on with your highly intellectual discourse with other like minded interactors.
Good luck
PS:- But, I also expect intellectual honesty from you as well. Try NOT to twist my views. Nothing makes me mad, except when someone like you who claims to (be highly well versed, master of all trades and always self righteous kind of a guy) starts mis interpreting my exact views on certain issues unfortunately that's what you have been doing in the past as well.

I challenge you to show me where did I generalize Blacks? as all are lazy bums on welfare?

Yes, I said it on several occasions that I don't judge people based on their race, gender, religion, caste, nationality, color or ehtnicity......they're all created equal by God(Almighty). Yes, I can't respect those people who don't show proper conduct.
With blacks I have had my own bad experiences, I was mugged by blacks twice, My empty house was looted by three blacks who got caught in cameras, majority of the times I have experienced that blacks slurr more discriminatory remarks against Pakistanis than other races, they also try to take a black incompetent candidate over a competent Pakistani when ever they're given a chance, they'll always whine for being victims , well as a matter of fact they victimize other minority groups quite oftenly.. And also majority of them are on wellfare and that's the fact.......not only that I have seen htem on well fare and driving BMWs.....what a joke......

Anyway, I don't generalize people based on their color, yes I do point out when they show a mis conduct.....

Thanks for ignoring my response in future, b/c you and I are and will never be on the same page.

Re: # 133

Zeena:

".....and should project ourselves as Muslims....as if headscarf is the only identity remained for Muslims...."

Iran is creating proud Iranian identity, their Islam happens to be part of it. I can take bets with you that they care less about projecting themselves. Pride is hardly projected, it exudes from the personality. When someone walks in people can feel it. Of course certain types want to project their identities, and get spotted quite quickly. A whore and a pimp would not stand on a dark corner and project herself, as no one will notice them. They want to be noticed. With this analogy of extreme projection, I am not implying any negative on any religion.

Can a person not leave Islam to the personal confines?

What amazes me is when responsible people can make above statements, and not see the problem is entirely in the thinking.

I have seen hippies in bell bottoms, drooping moustache, without bras walking around. I have seen mini-skirts and hair colors. Some chukcled, others joined, while the most simply ignored. The world simply went around and moved on.

There are many who have made personal choices to live with symbols they identify with their religioun. I have seen pundit in temple, wearing a choti. I would not want to wear one, even though growing up my father's elder brother had. When my daughters were growing up, they had asked me why do they wear and why not me? That was the most serious discussion I had with my daughters, after that I spent time with them explaining separation of personal space and things personal. One daughter turned out to be more religious than the other. Both are proud of their Indian heritage as born American. They make their choices. Religion hardly played the center stage for them to perform and learn kathak dance while growing up they indeed went to the local temple, and looked forward to festivals. The less religious one, chose to discover more of her Indian identity, when she went to Columbia. Other one became more spiritual instead. Freedom is the key, ability to learn to select and accepting mistakes can be a teacher is more critical. This approach builds tolerance in.

Why define values around one single theme and project it? There is something wrong in such definition and such urge to project.

i hope indian community participates in amrica first. amrica is thanksgiving, you have to bring something to the table before demanding shyte. so first we need to build big beth ramayan hospitals etc

masadi: i did not read your posts which are no doubt littered with abuse and lies and false accusations and hypocrisy in an attempt to get attention to your otherwise barren posts.

bulleya: I agree that political parties in Pakistan have been short-sighted in the past. It is clear though that they have learnt the hard way after 1999 that there is something more important than gaining power - and that is having a democratic system. As the leaders of the american revolution against King George said "We must hang together, or else we will hang separately". ZAB never understood this - and ended up getting hung, literally. NS did not understand this - and ended up having to agree to being exiled as the alternative to a similar fate. So - ultimately the fool does the same thing as a wise man, only much later and after suffering much damage. And so, our stupid, short-sighted politicians have woken up to the importance of "hanging together" on issues of national importance (i.e. defense from external aggression, and defenese from internal attempts at overthrowing the rule of law).

As for your saying that the US is desperate to keep Musharraf in power - the fact is that Musharraf is already powerless (and if this is not apparent even now, then it will become increasingly apparent over time).

Zeena jee u r not suggesting we respect kaalloos as well r u....but they r lazy bums on welfare..each n every one of em...u told us so

Mr.Writer
We don't need to be obsessed with our religion and should project ourselves as Muslims. No body does that. The mis interpreted kind of Islam is the main reason that average Americans hate Muslims as whole.

Rather Muslims should be more kind, less hateful, loving, honest and hard working instead of being obsessed with women making them wear headscarf....as if headscarf is the only identity remained for Muslims....this is sad, quite sad that Muslims are still trapped with Mullahism.....

Anyway, instead of projecting religion , try to project real deal as kindness , love and peace.

Time has come for all humans of this planet earth to ignore all other identities and stick to one id, called humanity.

If, all of us are sharing this planet, then it is our responsibility being the citizens of this planet earth to respect this planet and it's citizens....

Re: # 130

Romair:

Democracy hardly requires "unity" among diverse people. It instead creates a basis to evolve consensus among diverse people to deal even with conflicting situations.

As I see, in Pakistan's case, instead of seeking consensus, issues get settled "My Way or Highway" approach. Be it ZAB, Mujeeb, new crop of leaders, or Army.

Under democracy, parties submit to the will of people. Parties do not try to make people submit to their will, and weaken the will of people. However defective the submission method in democracy may be, over a period of time, they evolve as democratic institutions mature.

Indira Gandhi submitted to will of the people shortly after the imposition of emergency. She could have perpetuated her emergency and destroy democracy and India as we see today, but she did not.

Parties in Pakistan, as I have seen, have consistently trampled the will of people, and have refused to accept, however defective, democractic methods of submissions. Democracy never gets a chance outside the grey matter of some people in Pakistan, as if they use it to get or remain in power. Once they are in power, they, not democratic institutions, are supreme. Patience does not seem to a virtue being practised, it may be enshrined in Islamic books, but not to be practised. Only example, that stands out for me, is Iran. Its traditions, as accepted by Iranians themeselves, go to age before the arrival of Islam. It is possible Iran may be the beacon of that part of the world. America and the west is given Iran a reason to toughen up and carve out a proud identity also.

Re: # 129

Massaddi Mian:

"...more mature in our political understanding. Even the common beggar on the streets can tell you that the sob in the uniform who now sits in the presidency was "dancing to the tunes of amreeka"- ..."

Massaddi Mian's matric to measure maturity "in our political understanding" is stated above. Do you convert bright kids into donkeys in your class ?

tahmad #: the only reason pakistan has not had democracy is because the two large parties (at any time in pakistan's history) have never been able to unite.......the army is able to play one against the other.......while the army's top leaders always stay united......

had bhutto and mujeeb remained united, the military would have been out......had benazir and nawaz remained united, ditto....

had bb remained united with apdm, musharraf would have been out......however none of the above happened.....

the usa desparately wants musharraf to stay, but with a democratic facade......so it will push hard and put a lot of pressure on everyone to keep him in power......

so can the largest two parties remain united......it has never happened before......

i think the army will split them up.......ppp will be given a clean ride, without rigging........and pml-n will be decimated through rigging in favor of pml-q......

ppp + watered down pml-q + mqm will form the govt., with amin fahim as pm and musharraf as president......pml-q runs punjab, ppp runs sind and center.......

now if trends change, then musharraf is screwed.....the one big difference this time is the rise of the civil society and the media.....

one more thing...

tahmed writes "It is therefore all the more encouraging to see Pakistanis (whether ppp or pml) in the same way joining hands half-way around the world..."

Leave the Pakistanis out of this American shit, we are much above that BS and more mature in our political understanding. Even the common beggar on the streets can tell you that the sob in the uniform who now sits in the presidency was "dancing to the tunes of amreeka"- not even the widely read syndicated columnists in the US have that level of consciousness... when the American public start thinking for themselves, and demanding an accountability for the loot that its elite are perpetuating on their behalf while keeping them living paycheck to paycheck, in deep debt and now taking their houses away due to corporate manipulation, then will they even begin to approach a tenth of the political consciousness and "democracy" that the people of Pakistan espouse within their hearts, thanks largely to the work (sincerely or insincerely is besides the point) of one great leader we had in our entire history, ZAB...

Later....

tahmed writes :"#122 btw, i did some volunteer work in yesterday's primaries in the US - and it was great to see first hand how election judges (whether representing republicans or democrats) work closely together during polling as friends and fellow neighbors rather than as enemies or even political rivals, for the greater cause of democracy.."

Leave it to a peon of the West, one who thinks he has tasted the elexir or life by licking the white man's boots, to pontificate on the US political system based on his ONE DAY's volunteer work. Maybe he has forgotten the hate filled race baiting, mud slinging, horse trading, campaign fund manipulating rivalries that goes on in the US not to mention the behind the scenes BS that goes on to predetermine issues, make and break candidates by use the most intimate personal details of their lives and families, and this little fool says they love each other like neighbours and friends, and then HP wonders why my posts to this person are of such a harsh fashion. He is condemning our people to perpetual slavery to the West because he himself loves that servitude be it in his usual ignorant manner. I can laugh at his foolisness but this disease that he suffers from affects a multitude of people in India and Pakistan, the slaves that then drain the blood of their people on behalf of the white man.....

in todays Dowd column in ghe NYtimes:

"Obama is just creaming hillary. You know...all these primaries...you lnow. And hillary says its not fair, because they are being held in February, and February is Black history month. And unfortunately for Hillary there is no White Bitch Month"

#122 btw, i did some volunteer work in yesterday's primaries in the US - and it was great to see first hand how election judges (whether representing republicans or democrats) work closely together during polling as friends and fellow neighbors rather than as enemies or even political rivals, for the greater cause of democracy (even as we kept an eye open for any attempts at interfering with the election process).

It is therefore all the more encouraging to see Pakistanis (whether ppp or pml) in the same way joining hands half-way around the world for the same greater cause of democracy!! Pakistanis have demonstrated that they are second to none in the world when it comes to making personal sacrifices for the greater cause of their community and their nation.

#122 bulleye: I have no doubts about PPP (Zardari is just a wadera-wannabe). But nevertheless, he has chosen to ally himself with PML and that is great. At this time Pakistanis need a PPP-PML alliance in order to get rid of the far bigger threat posed by continued military rule.

Once Musharraf is out of the picture (and in the dock facing charges against his multiple crimes against Pakistan, hopefully, or - more likely - escapes to texas with his stolen wealth), the Judiciary may or may not be restored. If it is restored - that will go to Nawaz Sharif's great credit. If it is not - that will nevertheless still represent a giant step forward in the political development of Pakistan.

btw, just kidding on #123. dont mind.

bulleya: Floride is indeed very important for obama. As indeed it is for everyone else. Obama must try to stay away from the big state, though, since we all know that people in big state find it more difficult to climb stairs.

And in particular, Obama must do his best not to texas, because if Obama should choose to tax us how will we be able to spend money on things? :-(

tahmad #: i am not sure if ppp can support an independent judiciary......nawaz has already been prosecuted for the cases against him, and has been punished.......however, the cases against zardari are still pending.....

if a really true independent judiciary comes in, it would prosecute zardari.......along with musharraf.......

so, my guess is musharraf will offer ppp an nro, in return ppp will be allowed to form the govt. in some sort of an alliance with mqm and pml-q, and will be asked to give indemnity to musharraf.....basically the same deal that musharraf offered bb...

in addition, elections will not be rigged against ppp, but will be heavily rigged against pml-n in favor of pml-q.....so ppp will not complain and pml-n will be left out in the cold.....

majumdar/ananth#: .....obama needs a white southern vp, who is from a decisive state and is not a liberal.....democrats will win two of the three big states - california and new york.....however, they will lose texas.......so someone from texas would be a good candidate.......however, i don't think democrats can win texas even with a candidate from texas....

this leave florida.....florida can go either way.....neck and neck.....and it is a big state......so perhaps a WASP democrat with conservative credentials from florida.......someone with a military background with expertise in that space and a desire to bomb others would be an added asset......

...so a conservatively centrist WASP male democrat with military experience, who likes bombing other countries, from florida......a good balance to obama......

more bad news for general mqm mush..more good news for Pakistanis...

PML-N offers help to PPP in forming govt
By Amjad Mahmood (Dawn)

LAHORE, Feb 12: The PML-N has assured the PPP of its support in the process of forming government without seeking a share in power, well-placed sources in both parties say.

The assurance was made by PML-N chief Mian Nawaz Sharif during a meeting with PPP co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari who had called on him on Tuesday evening....Mr Sharif expressed the hope that the PPP would support his party’s stance on the issue of restoration of deposed judges and the implementation of the Charter of Democracy he and Benazir Bhutto had signed in London in 2006.

gotta go

Please don't ask stupid questions and then try to get sarcastic when you cannot reply to the answers. Exit polls in ohio put Kerry way ahead of Bush, irregularities of the voting machines manufactured by the fool's corporate donors and friends, the only explanation of this discrepancy, tell me what tipped it in his favor.

Masadi sahib,

Welcome back.

(stole the elections from Kerry)

Who stole the elections from Kerry?

Regards

kaiser writes "The sec he merges with hillary he will lose his votebase and thus become useless to her."

That wont happen, the base will go where the elite want them to go, which might involve being "lost" in a machine, just as they did when they got rid of Dean and stole the elections from Kerry inspite of the exit polls...

hamid writes "if hillary wins, i will move to canada or throw myslef under a truck..."

The second option sounds more interesting don't you think? provided the poor truck isn't damaged going over your fat a__. Very respectfully submitted.....not!

edwards could not carry his state in 2004 …. No point having him on the democrat tucket. Obama needs some other southern WASP govrenor as a running mate.

Romair,

or perhaps someone from florida as that is a deciding state in presidential elections........

Is Jeb still the Guv? Will he rig elections for an outsider?

Regards

...it is very difficult for sitting congressmen (and women) to win presidential elections, in the usa......it hasn't happened for a while.....

w bush was a governor.....bill clinton was a governor....bush sr. was a vp.....reagan was a governor......carter was governor georgia till 75 (?)....nixon was vice president.......johnson was vice president......

so if my info is correct, one would have to go back to kennedy to find a sitting senator (or house member) who became president.......

in addition, it has been impossible for a democrat from the north of usa to win an election......bill clinton was from the midwest/south (arkansas)......carter was from the south (georgia).....johnson was from the south (texas)....

once again, one would have to go back to kennedy to find a democrat from the north (massachussetts) who won a presidential election......

so a sitting democrat congressman from the north should have no chance to win an election......while a republican from the south should have every chance.....

however, thing are different now.......all three candidates - mccain, hillary and obama - are sitting senators......and both the democratic candidates are from the north (obama from illinois and hillary from new york)......

based on this, if either hillary or obama win, they would need democrat from the south as a strong vp candidate......to get in line with the historical trends....and preferably one, who is not a sitting congressman.......

how about an obama-gore ticket.......gore is from the south (tennessee) and is not a sitting senator......or obama-edwards.......

or perhaps someone from florida as that is a deciding state in presidential elections........

Majumdar,

Will Hillary agree to being a VP ???... Obama has the momentum now…. If we look at the low turnout to the repub primaries…. They have very hard work ahead of them

Ananth,

Cud a Hillary-Obama ticket stall the Reps. I am assuming that the loser of the Dem race wud agree to be VP candidate.

Regards

Obama is forging ahead... i f we look at the turnout to the democrat primaries .. which is many times the repub turnout... he seems to be vreating a "hawa"...

Only way mccain can counter this is by getting a conservative, hispanic running mate... who cna get votes of both these groups...

Every passing day America looks more like the sub-continent

Zeenaji,

Looks like Obama is forging ahead fast in the Prez race. You need to get more active in the electoral process, maybe you cud contribute a FP article on Am Paki/Momin choices in the current elections.

Regards

Santani sahib
I understand there are lots of typos in my #43 post. B/c I have been working since 4 days and nights. I apologize for some errors, which i recognized right now.

Well, thanks for pointing out my errors.

In future I'll try to give you an upscale English which suits your kind of Brits or English Gentlemen.

BTW, which Brit family are you from?

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Hamidm, the one aspect none of the candidates have spoken about in detail is the economy. The economy is teetering on recession..but will probably escape. But with volatility in the markets and certain sectors showing long term decline (housing and financials)..these guys will have to get more specific other than "no new taxes" and "cutting spending". Hopefully once the candidates are firmed up we can get mroe details.

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#80 Posted by bulleya on February 12, 2008 8:49:07 am


i told you a long time ago


I took your advise and printed out a whole bunch of re-elect mccain 2004 t-shirts...now they're sitting in a pile next to the t-shrits with pakis flags and "vacation in srinigar, pakistan" t-shirts that you also told us about...

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Re: # 97

hamza mian,

.... i hate to point this out, but you have a tendency to abuse the poor female ralatives of people on chowk ..... this is typical of misogynistic jihadis like muhammad ata who hated women so much that he didn't want them to come to his funeral ..... why can't you follow in the footsteps of the prophet sho loved women so much that he kept a stable of mature mares and frisky fillies .....

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I think the republican right has been spoiled during the last two elections, Hamid. To the point that they are acting desi...i.e. sitting out in protest. Plus the command or shall I say cacophony of grandstanding on behalf of AM radio personalities which drive a lot of the agenda as mouth pieces of the conservative base are virulently anti-McCain. The are not convinced that he can be a non-Obama, should Obama move more ot the center to go after the regan dems and independents.

hamza, tell me the truth..did you drool uncontrollably when you typed the sentence below? That is a tell tale sign of Trisomy 13. Imagine..if your ammi could have said no to your abbu when she tied rakhi on his hands....tujhay dekh kar bahout dukh hota hai..becharay :((

Re: # 91

chalta,

.... personally, i dont worry about the republican base - in the end they will support mccain if he is nominated, like i supported bush ....... however, the independents and reagan democrats can be swayed by obama ....

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Re: # 90

... hamza mian,

.... sorry, i must have missed your question .... didn't mean to ignore you ......... anyway, what's up with changing your name all the time?

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Re: # 86

chaltahai,

... i woun't comment on the rest of your post, but i do agree that cousin marriage is one of the reasons for the ummah's stupidity ......

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Re: # 84

chaltahai,

.... i think mccain too needs to move a little bit to the right so that he doesn't piss off the conservative wing of the party .... obama is fine where he is - acutually, there is little difference between him and mccain on most issues and i am sure he will do the right think in this war on terror if he is elected (god forbid) ......

Hamza, think, while it might impossible, from your cousin marriage produced brain for a second...US policy doesn't change that quickly not should it. Since 9/11...there is a concerted effort on part of the US to destablize or destroy Muslim centers of power or peceived power. Afghanistan and Iraq are one aspect, Palestine has been halved yet again...Pakistan is teetering...Iran is next. Gulf arabs are paying awesome premiums to market buy subsidizing certain underperforming US assets through bailouts meanwhile the investments into alternative energy sources is doubling year over year. This means that gradually over time...the only asset the arabs will be left holding is a stockpile of crude (since they can't extract by themselves) and the world would have moved on to Hydrogen fuel cell driven cars. the future is bright...for the muslim world..one suide bomb at a time.

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I agree with Hamid, that once Obama is vying for the white house against Mccain, it will force McCain to move a bit to the left and Obama to the right. I hope for McCain to win as the "war on terror" needs to continue (not that Obama would do any thing different), but we need to ensure that the fight is continuing overseas. US presence in Muslim world needs to increase not decrease. laaton kay bhoot baaton say nahin maantay

Calm down Hamid Masih you wont have to rush to your demise, hillary aint winning. Bama is the next prez, there wont be any wholesale changes, no social revolution, nothing of that sort....it will be business as usual for the most part with subtle changes maybe....he is just the lesser evil from the perspective of the poor of this country. if he tried to do the right thing in middle east someone would rush to suk his dick in oval officen it would lewinski all over again...so i dont think we the Muslims can expect any fairness on a large scale from him so u can calm your neo-con blood thirsty boyfriends...like i said at the most he will be a lesser evil.

As for obama saying that he would bomb pakistan, i would bomb pakistan if pakistan is the mess that it is. If pakistan doesnt want to others interfering in their matters than they should start telling pakistan army to stop meddling in affairs that doesnt concern them, namely judiciary. Have a functioning country and institutions and maybe the rest of the world wouldnt treat u like a brat and whoop u every chance they get. Apni shalwar uttar kay khRay hoggay bharay bazar mein bhai too majma too lagay gaa phir.....

Re: # 80

romair bewakoof!

... i did support mccain in the 2000 election but he didn't win the nomination ..... i am glad he is still alive otherwise we might have been stuck with huckster huckbee with his guitar and bible, the moron from massachusets who is a bigger flip-flopper than joh kerry, or that mobster from new york whose only claim to fame is that he happened to be in town on 9/11 ........... thank god for mccain

........ if hillary wins, i will move to canada or throw myslef under a truck ....... i can't stand that woman! ..... as my daughter says, "she would kill chelsea and bill and her mama to be president" ..... and besides, she has fat legs .....

fuzair #: mccain is a misfit in his own party.....barring his support for wars, there is nothing he has in common with republicans...specifically the hard core relgious right, which still runs the republican party.....

unfortunately, for republicans, their symbol of religious right - i.e. bush - has turned out to be such a disaster that no one who follows the same line can get elected......

so basically, the usa currently has two liberal democrat - obama and hilary - and one liberal republican running for presidency......

obama will beat the crap out of mccain on the iraq war alone.......mccain wants to send more troops in!!.....

the center will lean to the left this time....last time bush barely won, with a split center.......it is going to be very difficult for mccain to beat any democrat.....had their been no bush of eight years, any republican would have destroyed any democrat....

hamidm mian #: "...hillary simply because she is a woman and all men are scum.....and i support mccain because i think he is good man..."

i told you a long time ago to support mccain.....when he was running against bush, eight years ago!!

if you and othere republicans had supported mccain then, bush would have lost, and the republicans would have ruled, and would still be ruling.....

america is a heavily conservative country, which was getting more and more conservative....there is no way a democrat should be able to win.......

yet now democrats are about to rule......house, senate and presidency......

You may have missed this, but i am not buying the last great hope story anyway. I am saying that obamas current popularity stems from people dumb or desperate to believe he is the anti-clinton. The sec he merges with hillary he will lose his votebase and thus become useless to her.
So, in short, it will never happen.

goodnight, enough posts for today....

Read #76 "when he vetting process " as

"when the vetting process"

btw if you consider congressmen as being members of the elite you are sadly mistaken, that might be a place where the political elite that later float into the corporate (private) arena are vetted but they certainly do not form the core of the US elite that I talk about. Get a grip on who the decision makers are not the rats that submit to the executive that decides for the corporate/military/political nexus in the US

Kaiser writes "Obama's wife has stated publically that he will not run another campaign. That was a deliberate refusal to be considered good VP material. "

Only a damn fool running for nomination of his party will own up to being a VP candidate- don't be so naive. There is no "hope and change" when he vetting process that brought Obama to where he is, makes change near impossible. The change shit is all a facade to keep the rats running around in the wheels that have been provided for them

Obama's wife has stated publically that he will not run another campaign. That was a deliberate refusal to be considered good VP material.

The clintons are putting out the whole clinton obama team thing out there so undecideds will feel better about voting for clinton and not shutting out obama at the same time.

Obama is running on a fantasy that wont withstand the light of day anyway, but if he runs with the clintons his "hope and change" message is done for, and he doesnt have another shtick.

Re #72, leave it to a Pakistan Army moron to pontificate on the US elections, and pray tell me dumb (Feroz) and dumber (Fuzair), what prevents Hillary from picking Obama as her running mate to checkmate the competition if populism was what counted in US elections? Where manipulation determines the game things bigger and more powerful than the voting game and the facade of popular democracy is what determines the outcome....

The primary voting places in northern virgina are packed...3 to 1 dem/gop I'm hearing..which means most of them are there for obama.looks like obama has virginia sewn up..

hillary has another problem..all her donors are maxed out on the 4600$ limit..obama has tons of 50-100$ donors..he can go back to them for the same amount a couple of more times..

mccain won't be able to raise in 6 mont