American Muslims and Presidential Elections 2008

one more thing...

tahmed writes "It is therefore all the more encouraging to see Pakistanis (whether ppp or pml) in the same way joining hands half-way around the world..."

Leave the Pakistanis out of this American shit, we are much above that BS and more mature in our political understanding. Even the common beggar on the streets can tell you that the sob in the uniform who now sits in the presidency was "dancing to the tunes of amreeka"- not even the widely read syndicated columnists in the US have that level of consciousness... when the American public start thinking for themselves, and demanding an accountability for the loot that its elite are perpetuating on their behalf while keeping them living paycheck to paycheck, in deep debt and now taking their houses away due to corporate manipulation, then will they even begin to approach a tenth of the political consciousness and "democracy" that the people of Pakistan espouse within their hearts, thanks largely to the work (sincerely or insincerely is besides the point) of one great leader we had in our entire history, ZAB...

tahmad #: the only reason pakistan has not had democracy is because the two large parties (at any time in pakistan's history) have never been able to unite.......the army is able to play one against the other.......while the army's top leaders always stay united......

had bhutto and mujeeb remained united, the military would have been out......had benazir and nawaz remained united, ditto....

had bb remained united with apdm, musharraf would have been out......however none of the above happened.....

the usa desparately wants musharraf to stay, but with a democratic facade......so it will push hard and put a lot of pressure on everyone to keep him in power......

so can the largest two parties remain united......it has never happened before......

i think the army will split them up.......ppp will be given a clean ride, without rigging........and pml-n will be decimated through rigging in favor of pml-q......

ppp + watered down pml-q + mqm will form the govt., with amin fahim as pm and musharraf as president......pml-q runs punjab, ppp runs sind and center.......

now if trends change, then musharraf is screwed.....the one big difference this time is the rise of the civil society and the media.....

Re: # 129

Massaddi Mian:

"...more mature in our political understanding. Even the common beggar on the streets can tell you that the sob in the uniform who now sits in the presidency was "dancing to the tunes of amreeka"- ..."

Massaddi Mian's matric to measure maturity "in our political understanding" is stated above. Do you convert bright kids into donkeys in your class ?

Re: # 130

Romair:

Democracy hardly requires "unity" among diverse people. It instead creates a basis to evolve consensus among diverse people to deal even with conflicting situations.

As I see, in Pakistan's case, instead of seeking consensus, issues get settled "My Way or Highway" approach. Be it ZAB, Mujeeb, new crop of leaders, or Army.

Under democracy, parties submit to the will of people. Parties do not try to make people submit to their will, and weaken the will of people. However defective the submission method in democracy may be, over a period of time, they evolve as democratic institutions mature.

Indira Gandhi submitted to will of the people shortly after the imposition of emergency. She could have perpetuated her emergency and destroy democracy and India as we see today, but she did not.

Parties in Pakistan, as I have seen, have consistently trampled the will of people, and have refused to accept, however defective, democractic methods of submissions. Democracy never gets a chance outside the grey matter of some people in Pakistan, as if they use it to get or remain in power. Once they are in power, they, not democratic institutions, are supreme. Patience does not seem to a virtue being practised, it may be enshrined in Islamic books, but not to be practised. Only example, that stands out for me, is Iran. Its traditions, as accepted by Iranians themeselves, go to age before the arrival of Islam. It is possible Iran may be the beacon of that part of the world. America and the west is given Iran a reason to toughen up and carve out a proud identity also.

Mr.Writer
We don't need to be obsessed with our religion and should project ourselves as Muslims. No body does that. The mis interpreted kind of Islam is the main reason that average Americans hate Muslims as whole.

Rather Muslims should be more kind, less hateful, loving, honest and hard working instead of being obsessed with women making them wear headscarf....as if headscarf is the only identity remained for Muslims....this is sad, quite sad that Muslims are still trapped with Mullahism.....

Anyway, instead of projecting religion , try to project real deal as kindness , love and peace.

Time has come for all humans of this planet earth to ignore all other identities and stick to one id, called humanity.

If, all of us are sharing this planet, then it is our responsibility being the citizens of this planet earth to respect this planet and it's citizens....

Zeena jee u r not suggesting we respect kaalloos as well r u....but they r lazy bums on welfare..each n every one of em...u told us so

bulleya: I agree that political parties in Pakistan have been short-sighted in the past. It is clear though that they have learnt the hard way after 1999 that there is something more important than gaining power - and that is having a democratic system. As the leaders of the american revolution against King George said "We must hang together, or else we will hang separately". ZAB never understood this - and ended up getting hung, literally. NS did not understand this - and ended up having to agree to being exiled as the alternative to a similar fate. So - ultimately the fool does the same thing as a wise man, only much later and after suffering much damage. And so, our stupid, short-sighted politicians have woken up to the importance of "hanging together" on issues of national importance (i.e. defense from external aggression, and defenese from internal attempts at overthrowing the rule of law).

As for your saying that the US is desperate to keep Musharraf in power - the fact is that Musharraf is already powerless (and if this is not apparent even now, then it will become increasingly apparent over time).

masadi: i did not read your posts which are no doubt littered with abuse and lies and false accusations and hypocrisy in an attempt to get attention to your otherwise barren posts.

i hope indian community participates in amrica first. amrica is thanksgiving, you have to bring something to the table before demanding shyte. so first we need to build big beth ramayan hospitals etc

Re: # 133

Zeena:

".....and should project ourselves as Muslims....as if headscarf is the only identity remained for Muslims...."

Iran is creating proud Iranian identity, their Islam happens to be part of it. I can take bets with you that they care less about projecting themselves. Pride is hardly projected, it exudes from the personality. When someone walks in people can feel it. Of course certain types want to project their identities, and get spotted quite quickly. A whore and a pimp would not stand on a dark corner and project herself, as no one will notice them. They want to be noticed. With this analogy of extreme projection, I am not implying any negative on any religion.

Can a person not leave Islam to the personal confines?

What amazes me is when responsible people can make above statements, and not see the problem is entirely in the thinking.

I have seen hippies in bell bottoms, drooping moustache, without bras walking around. I have seen mini-skirts and hair colors. Some chukcled, others joined, while the most simply ignored. The world simply went around and moved on.

There are many who have made personal choices to live with symbols they identify with their religioun. I have seen pundit in temple, wearing a choti. I would not want to wear one, even though growing up my father's elder brother had. When my daughters were growing up, they had asked me why do they wear and why not me? That was the most serious discussion I had with my daughters, after that I spent time with them explaining separation of personal space and things personal. One daughter turned out to be more religious than the other. Both are proud of their Indian heritage as born American. They make their choices. Religion hardly played the center stage for them to perform and learn kathak dance while growing up they indeed went to the local temple, and looked forward to festivals. The less religious one, chose to discover more of her Indian identity, when she went to Columbia. Other one became more spiritual instead. Freedom is the key, ability to learn to select and accepting mistakes can be a teacher is more critical. This approach builds tolerance in.

Why define values around one single theme and project it? There is something wrong in such definition and such urge to project.

Re:-#133 Hamza_yusufzai sahib
With all due respect, you posted that don't take me seriously b/c in your opinion I am just an old sweet lady with No brains and with no knowledge on any issue...

That's OK with me, b/c I don't wish you to be like minded on any of such issues. If, you think I am not knowledgeable enough for your higher set intellectual standards, then my only request for your genius mind is to ignore an old sweet lady and don't waste your precious time on my posts and move on with your highly intellectual discourse with other like minded interactors.
Good luck
PS:- But, I also expect intellectual honesty from you as well. Try NOT to twist my views. Nothing makes me mad, except when someone like you who claims to (be highly well versed, master of all trades and always self righteous kind of a guy) starts mis interpreting my exact views on certain issues unfortunately that's what you have been doing in the past as well.

I challenge you to show me where did I generalize Blacks? as all are lazy bums on welfare?

Yes, I said it on several occasions that I don't judge people based on their race, gender, religion, caste, nationality, color or ehtnicity......they're all created equal by God(Almighty). Yes, I can't respect those people who don't show proper conduct.
With blacks I have had my own bad experiences, I was mugged by blacks twice, My empty house was looted by three blacks who got caught in cameras, majority of the times I have experienced that blacks slurr more discriminatory remarks against Pakistanis than other races, they also try to take a black incompetent candidate over a competent Pakistani when ever they're given a chance, they'll always whine for being victims , well as a matter of fact they victimize other minority groups quite oftenly.. And also majority of them are on wellfare and that's the fact.......not only that I have seen htem on well fare and driving BMWs.....what a joke......

Anyway, I don't generalize people based on their color, yes I do point out when they show a mis conduct.....

Thanks for ignoring my response in future, b/c you and I are and will never be on the same page.

Zeena jee aap too naraz hii hogayeen. I maintain that u r a well meaning lady. You are not too sharp when it comes to politics, religion etc. but u r a good person regardless. You have no idea about the social dynamics and realities of growing up in projects. you wouldnt be able to understand how poverty and desperation are handed down for generations as ancestral property. In most instances its almost impossible to turn out anything but a criminal when u grow up in these circumstances. I am not saying it justifies there crime, all's i am saying is that u n i can never have any idea what its like to grow up poor. people who drive 50,000 dollar cars and are on welfare might be an exception, they are not the rule. I despise those who are born in money and prosperity at the expense of others way more than petty thieves, with all due respect ...u n i both and most of pakistanis on these boards hail from that elite class that has been sucking the life out of the 90% of working class, one blood drop at a time.

Also Ease up on giving us your resume
...theres a saying..nayki kar darya mein daal..other than that u r a doll.

#139 Posted by Zeena on February 13, 2008 4:43:42 pm


not only that I have seen htem on well fare and driving BMWs


why don't you go on well fare..then the government will give you a BMW too..they'll even throw in an added payment for your mental disability...

Re: # 140

Hamza sahib:

Your post makes a lot of sense, other than when you call Zeena - a doll. Please recognize and respect this too.

Hamza Yusafzai jii

As expected you are always very sharp in religious and political issues....Exactly, that's what I am pointing out.
And that's what self righteousness is....

Thank God I remain humble and I don't brag like you do and trust me that's the main point to deal with one's absurdness when that particular person have no insight and have no clue what he is talking about.

I don't have that much time like you to come and discuss some useless issues 24/7...........that doesn't make me or others less of knowledgeable.

That makes you more naive and innocent when you make this case about me without even knowing my view or me.

Now, look at this blunt childish(excuse me) statement that you made as always nothing new....
[[u n i both and most of pakistanis on these boards hail from that elite class that has been sucking the life out of the 90% of working class, one blood drop at a time.]]]

My husband and I are working really hard daily in USA for earning our daily livings. Same goes back when I was in Pakistan, my mother was an educationest and my father was a high court bar at law(attorney) who always worked hard with honesty and integrity(although my father was also from a feudal family , owner of many lands, but, he never sucked blood of any poor peasant)

Rather my family always believes in going forward and help troubled population more. But, sorry if anyone is a criminal I can't give him/her the benefit of doubt.....
That's me.

and I don't consider my self from any elite class. I am a middle class in USA and I was middle class in Pakistan.

And also Humza
In real Islam, there is NO place for criminals regardless of their background.

If you committ any crime and you're caught red handed, in Islam they won't say ,"oh, well this person is from a poor background and that's why he stole".

Just think about it.