Talking to Jamil Dehlavi about Infinite Justice and More

Re: # 20

No I am afraid you are wrong as far as the facts are concerned.

If that is the accurate comparison then it should be as Pakistan existed in 1947 : Pakistan + Bangladesh.


Sindh still has a sizeable Hindu population and so does Bangladesh which was East Pakistan. Hence the claim that there are large numbers of Muslims in India as a counter to the fact that every step possible was taken to exterminate them in 1947 in Punjab falls flat when we consider the facts.

In the erstwhile 1947's Pakistan i.e. Pakistan and Bangladesh even today there are 25-30 million Hindus by very conservative estimates. If you add the number of christians and smaller minorities, you will see that while the numbers have dwindled they haven't dwindled as much as you make it out to be.


Furthermore... Balochistan and NWFP cannot be compared to Kerala and UP etc. Balochistan and NWFP had very small Hindu and Sikh populations pre-1947. UP Kerala Delhi Hyderabad etc had huge Muslim populations.

So your comparison is pointless... if we want apportion guilt for violence in 1947 which can only take into account West and East Punjab.

Gandhi was not included in any of the fanfare because in 1947 he was considered an embarrassment by even his most fervent colleagues. There wasn't even a ghost of a chance for Gandhi to be considered for any of the posts.

You keep repeating the same lie about Jinnah. Jinnah is the only person who refused power again and again... be it the offer of being the governor or the prime minister of United India. He was incorruptible. In 1947 he was the best man for the job and that is why he took it ... to stop India's daddy the erstwhile gora-master Mountbatten from claiming Pakistan as well.

As for murder of innocents... all that has to do with the way Congress and Mountbatten planned Gurdaspur tragedy. So I am afraid it was the Congress which wanted power at all costs... even the blood of innocents... an age old policy invented by Gandhi- though he loved to call it non-violent.

Dashy,

I am not a parent yet.

Boring it's but Mantolives is missing a point here. I was discussing the movie Jinnah (Jamil Dehlavi) but he dragged the Ganhdi-Jinnah stuff. It's long since Mantolives enjoyed himself. I am somewhat happy for him that he's back to his elements.

I am willing to limit my criticism to the movie Jinnah.

Manto mian,

(A comparison of W-Punjab to the rest of India is unfair. The accurate comparison would be W-Punjab with E-Punjab. )

No, the right comparison wud be India as a whole and Pak as a whole.

As far as India is concerned, there was wholescale forced migrations in E Punjab and large scale forced migrations from Delhi and 3-4 distt in Bihar/UP.
As far as Pak is concerned, the Hindus/Sikhs were almost 100% cleaned out in Punjab, NWFP and B'stan and to a great extent in Sind.

The two Bengals were to a great extent free of large scale forced migrations although to be honest here a fair bit deal of credit goes to the HRCFMBF (whose fast lowered the temperature).

Regards

Mantolives,

I am longing to read abt Gandhi's negative record. It's long I read it on Chowk.

Drinking doesnt bother me but the film Jinnah ignored that fact but dragged in the non-existent topic like Ruttie being an uncontrollable drinker.

Jinnah's power is thru the murder of innocents. He wanted 'POWER' at 'ANY' cost.

Gandhi eschewed it. He never longed for any post and he even ignored the 15th Aug celebrations in Dehli.


Majumdarda,

I now it's costly to keep Gandhi poor. I can bring in the topic of Gandhi's III class and his 100s followers in that class whereas Jinnah travelled by first class alone.

That way Gandhi's expensive in his lifestyle.

"And as far as power and perks are concerned let me remind you of waht Sarojini Naidu said of MKG "It costs the nation a fortune to keep the Mahatma poor" and even MAJ (pbuh)'s worst detractors cud ever accuse him of personal dishonesty."

Well said. That Sarojini quote blows a million holes in Mahatma's sainthood.

mantolives and VRV this is not about jinnah the fag or misogynist, castist, religious bigot gandhi. Please take your fight elsewhere......its boring tedious and is a side issue to the article itself.

grow up gentlemen....you are proud parents....and not the little pre-pubescent children of years gone by....

there....got my lecturing done, I can get of my high horse now...

hi mantlovies....what man, you are not fighting the elections....come on...pakistan needs you (I am serious)...

PS to 14: A comparison of W-Punjab to the rest of India is unfair. The accurate comparison would be W-Punjab with E-Punjab.

a topic worth having on FP! thank you RS.

"now we come to" (that phrase which is very popular with you), Ras, you had an opportunity to probe Mr Dehlavi and quiz him on a number of issues. Given that he is a noted fiml maker, you could have tried to extract from him some knowledge which would have been useful to many a budding pakistani film maker...but rather you stuck with the PR smooching with the tell-tale phrase (I quoted above) and a standard menu of question going through his films in a chronological manner.

In the answers Dehlavi gave to questions on Kappor and Infinite Justice (and in the question on the other movie released around Zia time), there was some scope for you to probe his mind and provide us with a deeper undestanding of his processes.

I would put this down to a wasted opprtunity on your part to educate us te unwashed masses of chowk! sad, Ras.

Dear Majumdar,

You know the history much better to dismiss the whole issue so simplistically.

The districts given to Pakistan were Muslim majority. Meanwhile Gurdaspur was erroenously in bad faith given to India by Nehru's master and lord Mountbatten which had large numbers of Muslims. It was Gurdaspur really where most of the violence took place. It is a historical fact. Ofcourse tit for tat took place on both sides.

But if Pakistani Punjab has as many Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs as there are Punjabi Muslims in Indian Punjab. This would be the accurate comparison.

Sindh still has a sizeable Hindu population and so does Bangladesh which was East Pakistan. Hence the claim that there are large numbers of Muslims in India as a counter to the fact that every step possible was taken to exterminate them in 1947 in Punjab falls flat when we consider the facts.

In the erstwhile 1947's Pakistan i.e. Pakistan and Bangladesh even today there are 25-30 million Hindus by very conservative estimates. If you add the number of christians and smaller minorities, you will see that while the numbers have dwindled they haven't dwindled as much as you make it out to be.

So you see this is a fallacious argument to begin with.

Manto mian,

(unless you follow some warped view of humanity in which black people are subhuman.)

It maybe of some interest to you that a fellow chowkie Jinnahite has been expressing somewhat similar sentiments on UP!!!

VRV sahib,

Why are you making a huge fuss of MAJ (pbuh) drinking? Lots of gr8 people did. And the old goat had his own shares of peccadilloes.

And as far as power and perks are concerned let me remind you of waht Sarojini Naidu said of MKG "It costs the nation a fortune to keep the Mahatma poor" and even MAJ (pbuh)'s worst detractors cud ever accuse him of personal dishonesty.

Regards

Manto mian,

(Abusing Jinnah for the deaths caused by the callousness of Gandhi's Congress Party)

The violence was caused by the Brits prematurely ejaculating themselves from India (mainly at Lord M's bad advice) and becuase of the sheer unpreparedness of both the successor administrations. Blaming either party is uncalled for.

(half a million, most of which took place in East Punjab under Congress' watch)

And although there was little violence in W Punjab under ML and MAJ's careful watch, almost the entire Hindu/Sikh miraculously disappeared from that region. While Muslims continued to live in large numbers in several provinces under INC's hostile dispensation.

(in time more perceptive and honest people in the future will concur with us.)

Sadly we will remain a minority. And ironically while MKG's stock may be on its way down our side of the Radcliff Line it may go the other way on your side.

Regards

Repeating a lie several times will not make it true so I don't know why you try.

Truth be told Gandhi was the most machiavellian amoral character let loose on the subcontinent. There was no humanity - unless you follow some warped view of humanity in which caste system is humane and black people are subhuman.

And you are deliberately misquoting a historical saying. Gandhi's physician who also treated Jinnah on occasion declared:

"Gandhi is a tool of power. Jinnah is the source of power"

This is I think sums up the two men... Gandhy a scheming little character without integrity and Jinnah the epitome of integrity and honesty.

Now if having a drink was anything immoral, then about 3 billion + people are immoral. So I don't understand what it is about "whiskey" that bothers you so much. Drinking is an acceptable social custom even in the most conservative Muslim societies which ban drinking. Some of the finest Muslim poets and intellectuals drank on a regular basis. Drinking however doesnt make one a drunkard.

Mantolives,

I am happy u r back to ur elements.

'Infact... all turmoil in the subcontinent since 1919 has some connection to that Hindu fascist Bigot Gandhi.'

I think since 1919 till date, I think.

Like it not, Gandhi stood for humanity whereas Jinnah stood for power, perks and of course free supply of whiskey in GG palace.

PS: Apparently you don't know what critically acclaimed means.

Besides no one denies that from purely a film-making perspective, Gandhi the movie was remarkable piece of work.

And it had to be to fool so many people and make them think exactly the opposite of what Gandhi really was.

Majumdar,

No no... I accept that the propaganda was extremely successful. However propaganda does not last. And you and I know the reality of what Gandhi really is... in time more perceptive and honest people in the future will concur with us.


VRV,

On the contrary you know the facts as well. In law it is simple: I took the gun I shot xyz. Abusing Jinnah for the deaths caused by the callousness of Gandhi's Congress Party (though half a million was the top figure claimed by any historian- Indian government claimed that 1947 was "mere disturbances") most of which took place in East Punjab under Congress' watch is one way of dealing with the ugly reality but it is certainly not very healthy.

As for Gandhi being a saint. Yes and 3 billion people also believe that some dude Jesus Christ was the son of God. Perception and "belief" doesn't mean anything. Facts are everything. Gandhi was a racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot.

Infact... all turmoil in the subcontinent since 1919 has some connection to that Hindu fascist Bigot Gandhi.