Talking to Jamil Dehlavi about Infinite Justice and More

Re: # 90

Apology accepted Mr. Manto.

DUDE in Encarta dictionary:

dude [dood]
(plural dudes)
noun (slang)
1. man: a man or boy
He's one cool dude.
Hey, dude, what's up?

2. city dweller vacationing out west: a resident of the urban eastern seaboard who vacations on a dude ranch in the West
3. flashily dressed man: a man who wears flashy, highly stylish clothes

Re: # 98

Mr. Jinnah may be prophet-like to some, to the rest he doesn't even come close to being a Prophet! The true Qaid-e-Azam is Muhammad (pbuh) not Alibhai Jeenabhai

Besides, why would the world audience care about Asian leaders when they're too busy glorifying cannibals, serial-killers and mobsters?

Re: # 98

Mr. Jinnah may be prophet-like to some, to the rest he doesn't even come close to being a Prophet! The true Qaid-e-Azam is Muhammad (pbuh) not Alibhai Jeenabhai

Besides, why would the world audience care about Asian leaders when they're too busy glorifying cannibals, serial-killers and mobsters?

The Jinnah movie was fine.

Its promotion and distribution left a lot to be desired.

One wonders what was going on behind the scenes?

I do not have an answer for majumdar on what happened.

Ras

D-M,

The film was a rousing success in Pakistan where-ever it played. It was its release abroad that was the issue.

Even today, many cineplexes coming up start off by a showing of the same movie.

DM sahib,

RE#96

(Jinnah film's failure in Pakistan did come as a great surprise, given the prophet-like status he enjoys in Pakistan. )

That is the point. In Islam it is forbidden to depict Prophets.

Regards

Great Jinnah movie was failure due to lack of drama in movie and hero for general level people.

Ras:

Okay, it's different if he was born in Calcutta.

I haven't seen Jinnha but even if it was as well made as Gandhi, it would not have been a similar international success for the following reasons:

- Jamil was not as well-known as Richard Attenborough and did not have his clout in the entertainment industry;
- Jinnah was not as well-known internationally as Gandhi and his followers such as Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King had made him a fascinating character;
- To the extent Jinnah was known, he was known as a negative character who split a nation while Gandhi had an overwhelmingly positive image as someone who preached communal harmony and non-violence. Indeed, Gandhi was, and is, more popular abroad than at home and the movie did not do very well in India.

While the Gandhi film's failure in India did not surprise me, Jinnah film's failure in Pakistan did come as a great surprise, given the prophet-like status he enjoys in Pakistan.

Ahmedmadani sahib,

#93

Thanks. You have explained it very well. Gandhi wud have been an even bigger success and won even more Oscars if they had included a song and dance sequence. Maybe a young MKG and Kasturba dancing around a tree and singing songs.

Jinnah also had a lot of potential which the director did not pick up. They cud have shown:

MAJ(pbuh) and Ruttie having a song and dance sequence in the Bombay monsoons.
The villainous Dinshaw Petit refusing to give his daughter in marriage to a Momin and telling her "Kaan khol ke sun lo" and Ruttie and MAJ (pbuh) defiantly running away.
MAJ (pbuh) himself playing spoilsport to his daughter's marriage plan and Dina running away.

I am afraid JD missed a few tricks.

Regards

Re: # 92
JD should look forward to produce movie on ZAB and BB there is all drama all awams like.

Re: # 92
A successful movie needs drama, personal, political evenfarcical any way. Without drama there is not movie its documentary. Gandhi was produced by Bombay movie professionls and they knew how to produce good movie. Production was helped and bankrolled by GOI. They had Gandhi who's life is full of drama, life open and screen of how things went and people and struggle went on. His transformation from meek dark suit booted lawyer to a revolutionary making revolution in revolution and cofounding and stunning his opponents. Along with quotations from jewshish pern mr. Einstein helped lot. It journey of great transformation and leading of masses people unfortunately forgeting intelluctual greatness of Jinnah. It is unfortunate. As you know shallow people of hindustan like movies full of mello drama and all lectuerbazi tamasha.

Great Jinnah movie was failure due to lack of drama in movie and hero for general level people. The movie is quite intelluctual and needs some base to appreciate the move of serious nature as movie potraying great muslim of centuries giving birth to the largest muslim nation on earth and his intelluctual efforts. Awam likes tamasha as was Gandhi full of MASALA which jinnah was a meaty movie and needing culture as to enjoy culture you have to be cultured. Jinnah was playing all moves with great precision as chess player and outclassing everybody of that time.
Director choose wrong subject as Awam can not go and enjoy Jinnah as no dram there and without dramatic doings of hero , jinnah was like great mathematician like newton , Libnitz, Euler working on TNT seriously and making worlds largest Muslim nation on world. For success you need drama so it failed in popular imagination and did not catch fire. Like in england even at that time some faltu cricket swinging man was popular than sir Issac Newton. Popularity many times shows shallowness and vulgarity and down to earthness of personality as in Mr. Gandhis case as you can see his profane attraction to low class hindus to people of intelligence like mandela and drak mr. King.( as his life was drama or dramatic) He was cheater as everybody thought the thinks like them ordinary people. Gandhi was tragic man and Jinnah had defeated Gandhi and made pakistan and as you know about tragedies. Gandhi was defeated on field by jinnah and believer have defied his message ofso called "popular" as they are now as in usa and uk decadent white countries full of bad stuff and elites thinking. People are damn crazy , look we know shakesphere as man who wrote Hamlet, Othello, Mcbeth, Kinglear, julisis Ceazar all tragedies. Gandhis tragedy or his departure was dramatic comapred to mr. Jinnah's end dieing like mortal of disease. helped lot as end is great for tragic awam.

JD made mistake of rying to make movie on jinnah and tried to create nonexisting drama.

Govt of india and NRI put lots of money to make nomiinations to Oscar election. As everybody knows jews are talented and they dominate cinema in usa. Gov sent them free copies and money in cash and they spread money to all sorts of people which GOP refused to do. Also in usa it was subsidised by GOI and spent 1.5 billion dollars type money to "run" movies. All NRI got free tickets so movie went where indians were concentrated.
White just refused to see and most who saw said India is just country of hindus worshipping cows.

Now real movie god will be finally shown on general tv in white countries by news tv companies then it is popular. BUT Gandhi was never shown for general people in white countirs. In india it is silly many people homeless go there sleep in theater and eat peanuts and make dirt.

JD if wnts to be successful need to produce movie with drama. He need to study Bombay movie formula.

I have no good knowlege about movie business.
Good day

Ras,

Why did the Jinnah movie fall apart?

Regards

RE: #87 Dost_Mittar

JD was himself born in Calcutta.
I guess that Indo-Pak covers all of South Asia.
The correct terminology here would be Indian-Pakistani-French.....

RE: Manto & others,
We could concentrate on the fact that the Gandhi picture
was a success and Jinnah was not. The reason does not have to be either the persona of either of them but we need to
look at why the Jinnah movie project totally fell apart and why the Gandhi movie was seen worldwide and was a big hit.
This has nothing to do with racist-casteist...
Pakistanis need to look at themselves for Jinnah's failure.

RE: Tahir #88, no insanity here, but sometimes it is alright to plead just that on CHOWK.

All, any comments on Infinite Justice?

Ras

I didn't know Dude was a gali. I am sorry.

#88 by tahir

You are partially insane, get yourself treated before its too late.

Tahir yaar, you shouldn't be calling Harimau (ISlamIslam) insane because it was your very own compatriot Yasser (MantoLives) who called Jesus a dude in #8.

#8 Posted by MantoLives on February 11, 2008 2:17:41 am

As for Gandhi being a saint. Yes and 3 billion people also believe that some dude Jesus Christ was the son of God. Perception and "belief" doesn't mean anything. Facts are everything. Gandhi was a racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot.

Re: # 37

You are partially insane, get yourself treated before its too late.

Jesus was not a dude, DUDE!

Look at your own perversion before you start accusing prophets.

Any comments about Raam, Sita etc.?

Shanti

Ras Saheb:

How is Jamil Indo- ? If he is Indo, so is every Pakistani above a certain age whose parents were born before the partition.

Re: # 84 I strongly second what RAS said , get back to article. Please no unrelated things.
There great demand may be dormant to for movies. Some govt help along with grants/donations from big business build some good state of art movie theatres and be run by good successful managers.
It is sad to see paksiani directors art works can not be shown due to lack of good movie theatres.
Mr.Arjun, Manto and all politically over oriented people go to political type articles and write there not here.

Re: # 81 thank you RAS. Your gravitas could stop this exchange - which I termed boring, and tedious and made a similar request in #17 is it that way back......

Red rag bull all come to mind....

Could we please stick to the article and its topic?

Ras

Ras,

Ok.

Who is Brig (Retd) Niaz who is being given much prominence in the
media. He is reputed to be an instructor of General (Retd) Musharaf
and currently is being viewed as the Grand Deal maker of Musraraf's
dying dispensation.


Brig. Niaz who hails from village Dharnial Tehsil Pind Dadan (where
majority profess to be followers of Ahmadi sect) was a sepoy clerk in
the Army. Due to shortage of officers after partition the Army started
a scheme whereby sepoy clerks were inducted into the officer ranks.
Brig Niaz was amongst those who benefited from this scheme. Brig Niaz
was amongst the three Brigadiers who played General Zia's game very
cleverly in 1977 in Lahore during the PNA movement in the sense that
they refused to come to the aid of an elected civil Government when it
wanted to quell violence unleashed by the Mullah dominated alliance.
The lawlessness in the country was later used as a pretext to impose
Martial Law. Contrast this to the officer's corps willingness to go on
killing a spree in Baluchistan, FATA, and Swat etc in order to save
the unelected Government of an Army dictator. In retrospect the
refusal to obey a civilian Governments order during a mullah lead
campaign also confirms existence of Mullah – Military Alliance.


After retirement from the Army Brig. Niaz started a food outlet in
Lalkurti area of Rawalpindi Cantonment. His luck changed when General
Zia Ul Haq summoned him and Brig (Retd) Ashraf Gondal (the other Brig
at Lahore in 1977) and introduced them to the executives of Swedish
(Ericsson) and Swiss (Orlikon) firms who were in the process of
receiving huge Defense supply orders from the Army. Both these
Brigadiers acted as front men for Zia Ul Haq. Multimillion dollars
orders were placed for Law Altitude Defense Radars (LADS) with
Ericsson of Sweden and for anti aircraft guns Orlikons with the Swiss
Company. It is reported that these two deals netted a commission of
nearly 100 million US Dollars which these Brigadiers shared with
Zia Ul Haq.


After becoming a millionaire in Dollar terms Brig. Niaz started living
lavishly and entertaining lavishly. Parvaiz Musharaf was amongst the
group of officers who were regularly supplied with all sorts of booze
and other things in life courtesy the Brigadier who also employed Col.
(Retd) Aslam Cheema a course mate and best friend (closer then Tariq
Aziz) of Musharraf and after Musharraf's uncle retired he too was
appointed as an office Manager in Niaz's Business.


After Musharaf became the President Cheema became the main Defense
supplier and a partner of Niaz. Both have managed to snatch the
agencies of old established defense agents by forcing the suppliers to
change agents if they wanted business in Pakistan. Over the last four
years Cheema and Niaz (both Ahmedi's) have managed to secure following
businesses:-


1) Supply of tank engines for Al - Khalid & Al- Zarar tanks
from Ukraine – worth nearly 500 millions US Dollars.


2) Supply of Early warning system for Air force from SAAB
Sweden worth 1.2 Billion US Dollars. This deal signed one week after
the earthquake of October 2005 was originally for 650 Million US
Dollars. Niaz over invoiced it by US Dollars 550 million. What a rape
of a poor country's resources.


In addition Niaz & Cheema are now the biggest contractor/suppliers in
Civil Departments. One of their front Companies will be building the
new GHQ worth billions of rupees. Obviously Mush gets a big share of
this bounty.


Niaz's recommendation matters the most in securing promotions and good
postings both in the Army as well as on the Civilian side.

Hi Manto, VRV, arjun, majumdar etc.

Could we please get back to Infinite Justice and

Jamil Dehlavi?

Has anyone seen this movie yet?

Ras

Re: # 78

Look beyond personal knowledge, as someone born in an Ahmadi family, I have no evidence of it.

But surely you can produce a single Ahmadi success story in India... like you keep parading Premji as some sort of an achievement.

Majumdar,

Yaar ... I don't expect such simplistic arguments from you. Are you denying that Muslims, including Ahmadis, were butched en masse in East Punjab? If your objection is to my painting Congress as wholely responsible for it... then you should know that this was a counter-point to the outrageous claim that Jinnah and the Muslim League some how caused this, which doesn't make any historical sense.

Ananth,

You've missed the point altogether. I am not condoning Pakistan's current status which I think is the very negation of the ideal of Pakistan (Read "Rest in peace Pakistan")... my point was a factual one. An Ahmadi from India cannot perform hajj unless he impliedly or explicity states that he is a Non-Ahmadi.


Salman B. Khan,

It is not blasphemy but there is an outrageous law that may be construed to disallow them.

However the courts have allowed the use of Quran and Muslim forms of worship as they are integral to Ahmadi Islam which follows the Hanafi sunnism.

My father, who has been brought up here, was a very religious man though very personally... his office was full of Islamic religious symbols including the Kalima and he was never harassed for it.

64 Posted by MantoLives on February 11, 2008 5:02:48 am


But despite that Ahmadis from India throng to get their children married to Ahmadis in Pakistan so that they can live in Pakistan.


And I presume you have some evidence to back that up...preferably, evidence that isn't tainted with the remains of last night's meal..

Re: # 75 so you can leave it blank and no entry is made? is that correct

Indian passport states the religion of a person as he per the applicants desire....... does not change the persons religion as Pakistan does...

Khurram,

No. Indian passport does not have Religion, yet. Mercifully.

Regards

Re: Khurram: No, an Indian passport does not mention ones religion.

Re #68, "Indian passport says a person is “muslim” ..."

Indian passport has a religion entry! Is this correct?

Manto mian,

There is a puzzle here. INC and MKG were bloodthirsty fascists who were out for Muslim blood in Punjab but not elsewhere in India including Bengal (the other province which got partitioned). Looks like INC/MKG were not only fascists but also suffering from split personalities.

Regards

Can an Ahmedi in Pakistan recite the Kalima..If he does, he risks blasphemy and the consequences for that is death..

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Re: # 64 Ahmadi is basically a Punjabi religion just like Sikh religion.Later on however Ahmadis made converts in Europe,Africa and many parts of Asia.

Manto..

Is it not humialtaing to lie about your religion to perform hajj…. Things may only get tougher .

Indian passport says a person is “muslim” if he wants to be called a muslim …. That’s what a ahmadi is by “choice”….. In pakistan he is called “non-muslim” in his passport….. he does not have a choice…..

FYI... if an Ahmadi from India was to declare to Saudis that he was an Ahmadi Muslim, he would not be allowed to perform Hajj.. because Saudis don't allow Ahmadis hajj.

So the only way an Ahmadi can peform hajj, whether a Pakistani, Indian, American, British or Ugandan is by claiming that he is either a shia or a sunni Muslim.

Fine. But how many Ahmadi success stories do you have in India?

#64

In India Ahmadi’s passport will show them as “muslim”….. In Pakistan after marriage the pakistani passport will show the same person as ‘non-muslim”….. not allowed to perform hajjj….

Re: # 59

Yes. And that is wrong. But despite that Ahmadis from India throng to get their children married to Ahmadis in Pakistan so that they can live in Pakistan.

Why? I think the answer is something much simpler.

Re: # 61

What new found belief?

Yaar Arjun mian,

There are thousands of people who attended his funeral. It was advertised in Jang and Nawai-Waqt on 11th December, 2007. So you can go shove it.

Using my personal tragedy for point scoring is a novel way. It shows your utter lack of humanity (which is simply because you follow Gandhiism as a creed) obvious and may you go through the same pain and hurt that you cause others.

No point in grilling Mantolives abt his new found belief in Mohammedanism. Since he has political ambitions he had to be Mohammedan. It's good that he want to turn Pakistan into a secular state. I see secular Pakistan on the horizon.

Actually he's a pioneer in a way that even Bilawal Zardari took Mantolives for inspiration and became Bilawal Bhutto.

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Manto,

Are you allowed to perform Hajj ? was your faher allowed to perform hajj ?

Manto,

Are you allowed to perform Hajj ? was your faher allowed to perform hajj ?

#48 Posted by MantoLives on February 11, 2008 4:05:59 am


the post-1974 discrimination against Ahmadis exists largely on paper.


Papers like this paper released by the ahmadiyya community on persecution of ahmadiyyas in the land of the pure?

http://www.thepersecution.org/dl/2007/annual_report2007.pdf

Accepted what? You guys don't even let untouchables come in the same house as you or drink the same water as you... Besides I am neither a Muslim nor anything else to be concerned with this nonsense.

What I do know is that Ahmadis have been organizing separate graveyards ever since they emerged as a community. It is the right of every community to do so. It is as futile an objection as saying that all Indians should be cremated because burial creates distinction.


As for separate Mosques...last I checked the Christians have catholic churches, protestant churches, anglican, presbyterian, southern baptist, and so on and so forth...
Do you think all denominations should be forced to create a single church?

Either you are an idiot or you are just plain dishonest... coming from a casteist and unequal society like India as you do, your naivety is all the more alarming.

You have accepted separate mosques… separate graveyards…. May be next on the line is separate seats in the local bus….

Re: # 51

So you want Shias, Ismailis and Ahmadis to be forced to pray behind the majority i.e. Sunni?

Re: # 49

Arjunm,

Dr. Salam was buried with Muslim rites. So was my father. It is a fact. My father is now dead. I would not lie about this. Not only that but like I pointed out the court has applied Islamic law of inheritance to his assets.


Ahmadis have operated their independent graveyards since 1908 and even before. Do you think that was because of discrimination or because they chose to bury their dead in a communal graveyard? What about the period between 1908 and 1979 ?

separate mosques... separate graveyards..... what more is needed for disriminination ?????

In India dead of all castes are cremated in the same electric crematoriums.

#44 Posted by MantoLives on February 11, 2008 3:58:18 am

right..they wiped out the muslim from Dr Salam's gravestone and let your dad have muslim last rites...

that's even less believable than the anthony mitchell articles you were posting...

p.s. is the graveyard a muslim graveyard or is it like the south in the 60s..separate but equal hint hint..?

Ananth...

Like I said my late father's life and the manner of his last rites is proof enough of the fact that the post-1974 discrimination against Ahmadis exists largely on paper.

As for Islam being egalitarian... while I am not a believer in anything, try asking an Ahmadi if he think Islam is egalitarian or not.

" Yes...Ahmadis have been organizing and operating their own exclusive communal graveyards since 1908, as have Shias, and some Sunnis. So your point is ridiculous. "....... Egalatarian islamic society

Manto

Ahmadis are undergoing state sponsored discrimination in Pakistan. Ahmadis are not muslim enough. For the mullahs. And you claim Islam is egalitarian ???

If not for Iran… Sunni mullahs would have declared shia as heretic too

PS; Suffice to say, my father lived and died as a Pakistani and was extremely well respected by all he knew as an honest man of integrity ... whose funeral was attended by several top politicians and businessmen of Punjab.

For me personally it shattered the myth of "bad ahmadi" and Nazi-style discrimination taught to me entirely on Chowk.

Ofcourse there are many problems but it certainly isn't how idiots like arjun-m and jayp portray it.

1. Yes. And many non-Ahmadis- including some Jamaat-e-Islami members attended the funeral services.

2. Yes...Ahmadis have been organizing and operating their own exclusive communal graveyards since 1908, as have Shias, and some Sunnis. So your point is ridiculous.

#41 Posted by MantoLives on February 11, 2008 3:53:38 am


did your dad have muslim last rites?

is he buried in a muslim graveyard?

Re: # 40

Again apples and oranges. The issue here was Gandhi's Congress Party's ethnic cleansing and genocide of Muslims in East Punjab ... which accounted for most of the violence in 1947's partition.

Let us stick to the topic

It is a fact. Can you name an important Ahmadi businessman, doctor, lawyer, civil servant etc in India? Don't name Justice A N Ahmadi because he was not Ahmadi but a simple sunni Muslim as far as I know

Now how about your source for your lies that you came up with earlier?

#31 Posted by MantoLives on February 11, 2008 3:22:22 am


India had Hyderabad, Delhi, UP, parts of Kerala... pockets of large Muslim populations.

Can you think of similar areas in Pakistan or Bangladesh.


yes..it proves your point that you've wiped out your minority to the point where it's less than 3% of your population...5% max if we include ahmedis like you...

pureland..land of the pure...95% pure and getting purer everyday...

Mantolives,

What's the source of your claim that Ahmadis living in Qadian are living in poverty?

Aamir of Dinia is my name for Jinnah who wanted to be the Emperor of India though be became Emperor of Pakistan as a consolation.

His megalomania was well established in how he took all the powers to himself in the newly established GGship. So his mentality is to lord over the ppl. That's why I called Aamir of Dinia.

Are you challenging my belief? I personally consider Muhammad a great figure of history and a leader of men who invokes unquestionable loyalty amongst people even today.
He was - as he said himself- an ordinary mortal who lived like an ordinary mortal.

But do you think by taking this line of argument, you are strengthening or weakening my argument, when I for one reject the "other-worldiness" and "spiritual" altogether.

Ref MantoLives #8

[As for Gandhi being a saint. Yes and 3 billion people also believe that some dude Jesus Christ was the son of God.]

Yasser, dear boy, go on and add "And 1.5 billion people believe that an illiterate Arab goatherd was a Prophet."

Come, on. You can do it. Just try it once.

[Perception and "belief" doesn't mean anything. Facts are everything. Gandhi was a racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot.]

And Mohammad was a pervert.

PS: I am not complaining about anything. We are talking about violence in Punjab.

Many of those Muslims killed in 1947 by Hindu and Sikh hordes were Ahmadis. So Radcliffe not only left the few Ahmadis in India left in absolute poverty but had many of them killed.

harish mian,

Gandhi did not refuse any power. He was not offered any.

As for Jinnah... he announced his decision to be the GG in mid July ... whole month after June 3rd plan after it became clear that GGship would fall to Mountbatten who was partisan.

I know many Ahmadis and Qadianis from Qadian. They live in abject poverty and absolute squalor. Many of them still marry off their daughters to Pakistani Ahmadis despite your claim that my father's community can't call themselves Muslims (this is a claim which is only true as far as some statute book goes.... the court has applied Hanafi Islamic inheritance law to divide my father's assets... so much for him not being a Muslim).

So why don't we discuss these issues on a logical plain and abstain from making comments about a community you know nothing about.

#22 by MantoLives

In 1947 he was the best man for the job and that is why he took it ... to stop India's daddy the erstwhile gora-master Mountbatten from claiming Pakistan as well.

Regardless of the circumstances, if Jinnah had to be remembered as a statesman, he would have refused power like Gandhi did. Instead, he jumped at the offer to become GG. That says it all.

As for murder of innocents... all that has to do with the way Congress and Mountbatten planned Gurdaspur tragedy.

This is like starting a wildfire in a forest and then complaining about some trees getting burnt. Gandhi wanted to avoid Partition, even at the cost of letting Jinnah be the PM of a united India. Yet the man refused and then here we have Yasser complaining about the Gurdaspur "tragedy" (thank God for the Radcliffe line, or the folks leading a peaceful life in Qadian today would have had to look forward to the day they wouldn't be able to even call themselves Muslims in public).

Re: # 30

So in other words you have no source for your claim.

Now do you have source for "Amir of Dinia" crap? The talks you refer to took place in 1944 and not 1946. So you are basically not talking truthfully.

Guys, did you know that Jinnah's Great grand Son is living in sin with an Indian Super Star?

Man, I never knew that jinnah's line had gone up in the world, while Gandhi's grand sons and grat grand children are nowhere to be seen?

Re: # 27

Be that as it may ... it proves what I am saying. India had Hyderabad, Delhi, UP, parts of Kerala... pockets of large Muslim populations.

Can you think of similar areas in Pakistan or Bangladesh. According to your statistic below there are 17 million Hindus in the erstwhile Pakistan of 1947.

Besides... and please feel free to answer this question any time now.... how is this comparison relevant to massacres at partition when we are simply concerned about violence as it took place in 1947. The accurate comparison then surely can only be of East and West Punjab. It goes without saying that there were more Muslims in East Punjab (thanks to Gurdaspur) than Hindus and Sikhs in West Punjab. Today there are hardly any Muslims in East Punjab. That should answer the question raised here.

Mantolives,

Once Gandhi told that he's dealing with AIML in his personal capacity, talks collapsed. So the dream of becoming the Aamir of Dinia was in Jinnah's mind & that disappeared with Gandhi's clarification.

The very reason why they backtracked is a proof that there's nothing achievable there (becmoing the Aamir of Dinia).

Re: # 25

VRV,

Could you quote a source for this Liaqat-Gandhi meeting or are you making it up as you usually do?

The fact is that Gandhi offered Jinnah pm-ship and he told him to take a hike because Jinnah said he would agree to safeguards embodied in the Cabinet Mission Plan and that PM-ship was an irrelevant issue.

#23 Posted by MantoLives on February 11, 2008 3:10:40 am

I need to double check but I am sure they are not 20% but abt 10% or thereabout non-Muslims in NWFP.

Manto mian,

Regarding the population of Hindus in B'desh.

In 1951, 10 million out of 41 million (24%) (Census of Pak), today around 9.3% (wikipedia) which means around 14 million.

Pop of Hindus in Pak

http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/pco/statistics/other_tables/pop_by_religi on.pdf

Hindus 1.6%
SCs 0.25%

Which means 3 million.

Regards

Dear Majumdar,

The principle of law is how the law existed in that point of time. So post 1974 Paki momin means jackshit really when talking about the Gurdaspur land grab by India.

What was the rationale for Gurdaspur if not land grab? It is now clear from History that Mountbatten- India's first Governor General- was complicit in this conspiracy. He clearly acted on Congress' behalf.

As with your earlier suggestion, you are missing the point. VRV is trying to appropriate the blame for 1947's massacres. In a court of law that would require exact facts on such bizarre claims that India has so many Muslims etc.

Please refer to my earlier post.

Oh bhai,

Gandhi neevr sought any power & that clear to everybody who knew him. So the question of Gandhi being considered doesnt arise.

As for Jinnah beint he Head of United India, Liaqat went to Bombay to talk with Gandhi abt Jinnah getting the top post but once Gandhi clarified that he's talking to Liaqat on his personal capacity but not on behalf of Congress, it became clear to Liaqat and Jinnah that becoming the Head of United India was a pipedream. So they backtracked & withdrew.

As for GGship of Jinnah, he sought it overriding the opinion of his AIML topbrass. The topbrass were even aghast at Jinnah's megalomania i.e seeking shadow over substance.

Manto mian,

(Gurdaspur tragedy.)

If I were a Paki Momin post 1973, I wud never bring up Gurdaspur in a public debate.

(So I am afraid it was the Congress which wanted power at all costs... even the blood of innocents...)

How did Gurdaspur or the riots keep INC in power. INC wud have remained in power even if G'pur had gone to Pak ( inspite of a non-Muslim majority) or had riots not taken place.

Regards

Re: # 20

No I am afraid you are wrong as far as the facts are concerned.

If that is the accurate comparison then it should be as Pakistan existed in 1947 : Pakistan + Bangladesh.


Sindh still has a sizeable Hindu population and so does Bangladesh which was East Pakistan. Hence the claim that there are large numbers of Muslims in India as a counter to the fact that every step possible was taken to exterminate them in 1947 in Punjab falls flat when we consider the facts.

In the erstwhile 1947's Pakistan i.e. Pakistan and Bangladesh even today there are 25-30 million Hindus by very conservative estimates. If you add the number of christians and smaller minorities, you will see that while the numbers have dwindled they haven't dwindled as much as you make it out to be.


Furthermore... Balochistan and NWFP cannot be compared to Kerala and UP etc. Balochistan and NWFP had very small Hindu and Sikh populations pre-1947. UP Kerala Delhi Hyderabad etc had huge Muslim populations.

So your comparison is pointless... if we want apportion guilt for violence in 1947 which can only take into account West and East Punjab.

Gandhi was not included in any of the fanfare because in 1947 he was considered an embarrassment by even his most fervent colleagues. There wasn't even a ghost of a chance for Gandhi to be considered for any of the posts.

You keep repeating the same lie about Jinnah. Jinnah is the only person who refused power again and again... be it the offer of being the governor or the prime minister of United India. He was incorruptible. In 1947 he was the best man for the job and that is why he took it ... to stop India's daddy the erstwhile gora-master Mountbatten from claiming Pakistan as well.

As for murder of innocents... all that has to do with the way Congress and Mountbatten planned Gurdaspur tragedy. So I am afraid it was the Congress which wanted power at all costs... even the blood of innocents... an age old policy invented by Gandhi- though he loved to call it non-violent.

Dashy,

I am not a parent yet.

Boring it's but Mantolives is missing a point here. I was discussing the movie Jinnah (Jamil Dehlavi) but he dragged the Ganhdi-Jinnah stuff. It's long since Mantolives enjoyed himself. I am somewhat happy for him that he's back to his elements.

I am willing to limit my criticism to the movie Jinnah.

Manto mian,

(A comparison of W-Punjab to the rest of India is unfair. The accurate comparison would be W-Punjab with E-Punjab. )

No, the right comparison wud be India as a whole and Pak as a whole.

As far as India is concerned, there was wholescale forced migrations in E Punjab and large scale forced migrations from Delhi and 3-4 distt in Bihar/UP.
As far as Pak is concerned, the Hindus/Sikhs were almost 100% cleaned out in Punjab, NWFP and B'stan and to a great extent in Sind.

The two Bengals were to a great extent free of large scale forced migrations although to be honest here a fair bit deal of credit goes to the HRCFMBF (whose fast lowered the temperature).

Regards

Mantolives,

I am longing to read abt Gandhi's negative record. It's long I read it on Chowk.

Drinking doesnt bother me but the film Jinnah ignored that fact but dragged in the non-existent topic like Ruttie being an uncontrollable drinker.

Jinnah's power is thru the murder of innocents. He wanted 'POWER' at 'ANY' cost.

Gandhi eschewed it. He never longed for any post and he even ignored the 15th Aug celebrations in Dehli.


Majumdarda,

I now it's costly to keep Gandhi poor. I can bring in the topic of Gandhi's III class and his 100s followers in that class whereas Jinnah travelled by first class alone.

That way Gandhi's expensive in his lifestyle.

"And as far as power and perks are concerned let me remind you of waht Sarojini Naidu said of MKG "It costs the nation a fortune to keep the Mahatma poor" and even MAJ (pbuh)'s worst detractors cud ever accuse him of personal dishonesty."

Well said. That Sarojini quote blows a million holes in Mahatma's sainthood.

mantolives and VRV this is not about jinnah the fag or misogynist, castist, religious bigot gandhi. Please take your fight elsewhere......its boring tedious and is a side issue to the article itself.

grow up gentlemen....you are proud parents....and not the little pre-pubescent children of years gone by....

there....got my lecturing done, I can get of my high horse now...

hi mantlovies....what man, you are not fighting the elections....come on...pakistan needs you (I am serious)...

PS to 14: A comparison of W-Punjab to the rest of India is unfair. The accurate comparison would be W-Punjab with E-Punjab.

a topic worth having on FP! thank you RS.

"now we come to" (that phrase which is very popular with you), Ras, you had an opportunity to probe Mr Dehlavi and quiz him on a number of issues. Given that he is a noted fiml maker, you could have tried to extract from him some knowledge which would have been useful to many a budding pakistani film maker...but rather you stuck with the PR smooching with the tell-tale phrase (I quoted above) and a standard menu of question going through his films in a chronological manner.

In the answers Dehlavi gave to questions on Kappor and Infinite Justice (and in the question on the other movie released around Zia time), there was some scope for you to probe his mind and provide us with a deeper undestanding of his processes.

I would put this down to a wasted opprtunity on your part to educate us te unwashed masses of chowk! sad, Ras.

Dear Majumdar,

You know the history much better to dismiss the whole issue so simplistically.

The districts given to Pakistan were Muslim majority. Meanwhile Gurdaspur was erroenously in bad faith given to India by Nehru's master and lord Mountbatten which had large numbers of Muslims. It was Gurdaspur really where most of the violence took place. It is a historical fact. Ofcourse tit for tat took place on both sides.

But if Pakistani Punjab has as many Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs as there are Punjabi Muslims in Indian Punjab. This would be the accurate comparison.

Sindh still has a sizeable Hindu population and so does Bangladesh which was East Pakistan. Hence the claim that there are large numbers of Muslims in India as a counter to the fact that every step possible was taken to exterminate them in 1947 in Punjab falls flat when we consider the facts.

In the erstwhile 1947's Pakistan i.e. Pakistan and Bangladesh even today there are 25-30 million Hindus by very conservative estimates. If you add the number of christians and smaller minorities, you will see that while the numbers have dwindled they haven't dwindled as much as you make it out to be.

So you see this is a fallacious argument to begin with.

Manto mian,

(unless you follow some warped view of humanity in which black people are subhuman.)

It maybe of some interest to you that a fellow chowkie Jinnahite has been expressing somewhat similar sentiments on UP!!!

VRV sahib,

Why are you making a huge fuss of MAJ (pbuh) drinking? Lots of gr8 people did. And the old goat had his own shares of peccadilloes.

And as far as power and perks are concerned let me remind you of waht Sarojini Naidu said of MKG "It costs the nation a fortune to keep the Mahatma poor" and even MAJ (pbuh)'s worst detractors cud ever accuse him of personal dishonesty.

Regards

Manto mian,

(Abusing Jinnah for the deaths caused by the callousness of Gandhi's Congress Party)

The violence was caused by the Brits prematurely ejaculating themselves from India (mainly at Lord M's bad advice) and becuase of the sheer unpreparedness of both the successor administrations. Blaming either party is uncalled for.

(half a million, most of which took place in East Punjab under Congress' watch)

And although there was little violence in W Punjab under ML and MAJ's careful watch, almost the entire Hindu/Sikh miraculously disappeared from that region. While Muslims continued to live in large numbers in several provinces under INC's hostile dispensation.

(in time more perceptive and honest people in the future will concur with us.)

Sadly we will remain a minority. And ironically while MKG's stock may be on its way down our side of the Radcliff Line it may go the other way on your side.

Regards

Repeating a lie several times will not make it true so I don't know why you try.

Truth be told Gandhi was the most machiavellian amoral character let loose on the subcontinent. There was no humanity - unless you follow some warped view of humanity in which caste system is humane and black people are subhuman.

And you are deliberately misquoting a historical saying. Gandhi's physician who also treated Jinnah on occasion declared:

"Gandhi is a tool of power. Jinnah is the source of power"

This is I think sums up the two men... Gandhy a scheming little character without integrity and Jinnah the epitome of integrity and honesty.

Now if having a drink was anything immoral, then about 3 billion + people are immoral. So I don't understand what it is about "whiskey" that bothers you so much. Drinking is an acceptable social custom even in the most conservative Muslim societies which ban drinking. Some of the finest Muslim poets and intellectuals drank on a regular basis. Drinking however doesnt make one a drunkard.

Mantolives,

I am happy u r back to ur elements.

'Infact... all turmoil in the subcontinent since 1919 has some connection to that Hindu fascist Bigot Gandhi.'

I think since 1919 till date, I think.

Like it not, Gandhi stood for humanity whereas Jinnah stood for power, perks and of course free supply of whiskey in GG palace.

PS: Apparently you don't know what critically acclaimed means.

Besides no one denies that from purely a film-making perspective, Gandhi the movie was remarkable piece of work.

And it had to be to fool so many people and make them think exactly the opposite of what Gandhi really was.

Majumdar,

No no... I accept that the propaganda was extremely successful. However propaganda does not last. And you and I know the reality of what Gandhi really is... in time more perceptive and honest people in the future will concur with us.


VRV,

On the contrary you know the facts as well. In law it is simple: I took the gun I shot xyz. Abusing Jinnah for the deaths caused by the callousness of Gandhi's Congress Party (though half a million was the top figure claimed by any historian- Indian government claimed that 1947 was "mere disturbances") most of which took place in East Punjab under Congress' watch is one way of dealing with the ugly reality but it is certainly not very healthy.

As for Gandhi being a saint. Yes and 3 billion people also believe that some dude Jesus Christ was the son of God. Perception and "belief" doesn't mean anything. Facts are everything. Gandhi was a racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot.

Infact... all turmoil in the subcontinent since 1919 has some connection to that Hindu fascist Bigot Gandhi.

Manto mian,

(Government of India bankrolled Gandhi the movie as a major propaganda effort ... )

Unfortunately all that money has gone waste. Thanks to you everyone knows MKG for what he is - a Hindu racist, fascist, casteist, misogynist bigoted freak.

Regards

Yasser,

Jinnah is critically accliamed? U mean 8 Oscars?

Jinnah was a known drinker. He use to drink whiskey everyday.

Like it or nor not, Gandhi's a saint politician and Jinnah's a butcher of a million ppl. Of course his successors outdid him in Bengal.

I agree that time is a great leveller. W see that in Pakistan everyday/week.

Ras,

Some people have a habit of over-reacting. Forgive them.

VRV,

Drinking and being a drunkard are two different things. If Saadat Hassan Manto's "Mera Sahab" is any indication, Jinnah had little red wine with dinner. Considering the movie was made in a budget less than 1/10th of Gandhi the movie 15 years later, it wasn't a bad movie at all.
The weaklink in the movie was Shashi Kapoor and his character who were better left out.

The movie was critically acclaimed and was released on DVD and did pretty alright. Ofcourse the Government of Pakistan did not bankroll it like Government of India bankrolled Gandhi the movie as a major propaganda effort ...


On another note vis a vis the article... I think Sir Christopher Lee and Richard Lintern played the part of Jinnah well. Lee was close to 73 whe he appeared in the movie and did not at all look like a Dracula.

Lee looked honest, upright, straightforward and scrupulous just like Jinnah was hailed by even his worst opponents including that snivelling little freak Gandhi.

One can also say that Sir Ben Kingsley played the part of Gandhi very well... Ben Kingsley now fits the profile of Gandhi- the snivelling, two timing deceptive dishonest crook ... much better. Infact that is the role Kingsley has been portraying in almost all of his newer films.

Time is a great leveller.

To paraphrase what they say about Wall Street, "The only way to make a small fortune in the movie business is to start with a large fortune and make a movie or two".

Ras,

I really dont know if u form part of the Pakistani intelligentsia or not.

I may have over-reacetd but the fact cant be taken away that Jamil had scr**ed-up the movie big time. Poor conception (i.e Jinnah is in heaven), editing & poor screen-play. Jamil Dehlavi is therefore responsible!

I saw it a few months ago & it's a low-grade movie (& I am glad that noboy takes it seriously). Btw, u can see this Google video. The print quality is good.

I forgot to ask him if Madubala was his relative?

http://www.screenindia.com/fullstory.php?content_id=18791


RE:V RV #1,No offence taken, but I am surprised at your
(over) reaction. I am glad that I am not a part of Pakistani intelligentia in your books.

I did not wish to gloss over "Jinnah" during the interview.
All I have seen of the movie was an obviously pirated and grainy copy and do not remember enough of the details. I was sorry to see that the movie was not promoted and would have liked to have seen a quality print.

Maybe Prof Ahmed and Dehlavi can clarify their positions
right here on CHOWK?

Ras

No offence meant to Ras but the person being presented here is a rotten mind. I thought it's Prof. Ahmed alone from "American" University who did the project 'Jinnah'.

Ppl can make out from the video links given here. If nobody knows or talks abt the film Jinnah, it's bcoz it's badly conceived and made.

The maker of the film was jerky and shows Nehru and Edwina in the bed room all the time. If they are not shown in bedroom, they are shown as making some suggestive dialogues apart from lewd gestures.

Lady Jinnah was shown as a drunkard - as if Jinnah was not!

We can make atleast a dozen points that made this film stink like a rotten egg.

Whatever my disagreements abt Jinnah, he's a hero to Pakistanis and there's a better of protraying him. If that's the only way then it also reflects on the intellegentisia of Pakistan. They are tasteless, unaesthetic & gaudy morons.

It's doesnt need an elaborate analysis here when the whole world had forgotten abt the film. Even discussing the other films of Jamil would be a waste of time given the nature of Jamil's rotten mind.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7281352336057332457&q=Jinnah& amp; amp; amp; amp; amp; amp;total=463&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

h ttp://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5804746583783141087&q=Jinnah&t otal=463&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2