Talking to Jamil Dehlavi about Infinite Justice and More

mantolives and VRV this is not about jinnah the fag or misogynist, castist, religious bigot gandhi. Please take your fight elsewhere......its boring tedious and is a side issue to the article itself.

grow up gentlemen....you are proud parents....and not the little pre-pubescent children of years gone by....

there....got my lecturing done, I can get of my high horse now...

hi mantlovies....what man, you are not fighting the elections....come on...pakistan needs you (I am serious)...

"And as far as power and perks are concerned let me remind you of waht Sarojini Naidu said of MKG "It costs the nation a fortune to keep the Mahatma poor" and even MAJ (pbuh)'s worst detractors cud ever accuse him of personal dishonesty."

Well said. That Sarojini quote blows a million holes in Mahatma's sainthood.

Mantolives,

I am longing to read abt Gandhi's negative record. It's long I read it on Chowk.

Drinking doesnt bother me but the film Jinnah ignored that fact but dragged in the non-existent topic like Ruttie being an uncontrollable drinker.

Jinnah's power is thru the murder of innocents. He wanted 'POWER' at 'ANY' cost.

Gandhi eschewed it. He never longed for any post and he even ignored the 15th Aug celebrations in Dehli.


Majumdarda,

I now it's costly to keep Gandhi poor. I can bring in the topic of Gandhi's III class and his 100s followers in that class whereas Jinnah travelled by first class alone.

That way Gandhi's expensive in his lifestyle.

Manto mian,

(A comparison of W-Punjab to the rest of India is unfair. The accurate comparison would be W-Punjab with E-Punjab. )

No, the right comparison wud be India as a whole and Pak as a whole.

As far as India is concerned, there was wholescale forced migrations in E Punjab and large scale forced migrations from Delhi and 3-4 distt in Bihar/UP.
As far as Pak is concerned, the Hindus/Sikhs were almost 100% cleaned out in Punjab, NWFP and B'stan and to a great extent in Sind.

The two Bengals were to a great extent free of large scale forced migrations although to be honest here a fair bit deal of credit goes to the HRCFMBF (whose fast lowered the temperature).

Regards

Dashy,

I am not a parent yet.

Boring it's but Mantolives is missing a point here. I was discussing the movie Jinnah (Jamil Dehlavi) but he dragged the Ganhdi-Jinnah stuff. It's long since Mantolives enjoyed himself. I am somewhat happy for him that he's back to his elements.

I am willing to limit my criticism to the movie Jinnah.

Gandhi was not included in any of the fanfare because in 1947 he was considered an embarrassment by even his most fervent colleagues. There wasn't even a ghost of a chance for Gandhi to be considered for any of the posts.

You keep repeating the same lie about Jinnah. Jinnah is the only person who refused power again and again... be it the offer of being the governor or the prime minister of United India. He was incorruptible. In 1947 he was the best man for the job and that is why he took it ... to stop India's daddy the erstwhile gora-master Mountbatten from claiming Pakistan as well.

As for murder of innocents... all that has to do with the way Congress and Mountbatten planned Gurdaspur tragedy. So I am afraid it was the Congress which wanted power at all costs... even the blood of innocents... an age old policy invented by Gandhi- though he loved to call it non-violent.

Re: # 20

No I am afraid you are wrong as far as the facts are concerned.

If that is the accurate comparison then it should be as Pakistan existed in 1947 : Pakistan + Bangladesh.


Sindh still has a sizeable Hindu population and so does Bangladesh which was East Pakistan. Hence the claim that there are large numbers of Muslims in India as a counter to the fact that every step possible was taken to exterminate them in 1947 in Punjab falls flat when we consider the facts.

In the erstwhile 1947's Pakistan i.e. Pakistan and Bangladesh even today there are 25-30 million Hindus by very conservative estimates. If you add the number of christians and smaller minorities, you will see that while the numbers have dwindled they haven't dwindled as much as you make it out to be.


Furthermore... Balochistan and NWFP cannot be compared to Kerala and UP etc. Balochistan and NWFP had very small Hindu and Sikh populations pre-1947. UP Kerala Delhi Hyderabad etc had huge Muslim populations.

So your comparison is pointless... if we want apportion guilt for violence in 1947 which can only take into account West and East Punjab.

Manto mian,

(Gurdaspur tragedy.)

If I were a Paki Momin post 1973, I wud never bring up Gurdaspur in a public debate.

(So I am afraid it was the Congress which wanted power at all costs... even the blood of innocents...)

How did Gurdaspur or the riots keep INC in power. INC wud have remained in power even if G'pur had gone to Pak ( inspite of a non-Muslim majority) or had riots not taken place.

Regards

Oh bhai,

Gandhi neevr sought any power & that clear to everybody who knew him. So the question of Gandhi being considered doesnt arise.

As for Jinnah beint he Head of United India, Liaqat went to Bombay to talk with Gandhi abt Jinnah getting the top post but once Gandhi clarified that he's talking to Liaqat on his personal capacity but not on behalf of Congress, it became clear to Liaqat and Jinnah that becoming the Head of United India was a pipedream. So they backtracked & withdrew.

As for GGship of Jinnah, he sought it overriding the opinion of his AIML topbrass. The topbrass were even aghast at Jinnah's megalomania i.e seeking shadow over substance.

Dear Majumdar,

The principle of law is how the law existed in that point of time. So post 1974 Paki momin means jackshit really when talking about the Gurdaspur land grab by India.

What was the rationale for Gurdaspur if not land grab? It is now clear from History that Mountbatten- India's first Governor General- was complicit in this conspiracy. He clearly acted on Congress' behalf.

As with your earlier suggestion, you are missing the point. VRV is trying to appropriate the blame for 1947's massacres. In a court of law that would require exact facts on such bizarre claims that India has so many Muslims etc.

Please refer to my earlier post.

Manto mian,

Regarding the population of Hindus in B'desh.

In 1951, 10 million out of 41 million (24%) (Census of Pak), today around 9.3% (wikipedia) which means around 14 million.

Pop of Hindus in Pak

http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/pco/statistics/other_tables/pop_by_religi on.pdf

Hindus 1.6%
SCs 0.25%

Which means 3 million.

Regards

#23 Posted by MantoLives on February 11, 2008 3:10:40 am

I need to double check but I am sure they are not 20% but abt 10% or thereabout non-Muslims in NWFP.

Re: # 25

VRV,

Could you quote a source for this Liaqat-Gandhi meeting or are you making it up as you usually do?

The fact is that Gandhi offered Jinnah pm-ship and he told him to take a hike because Jinnah said he would agree to safeguards embodied in the Cabinet Mission Plan and that PM-ship was an irrelevant issue.

Mantolives,

Once Gandhi told that he's dealing with AIML in his personal capacity, talks collapsed. So the dream of becoming the Aamir of Dinia was in Jinnah's mind & that disappeared with Gandhi's clarification.

The very reason why they backtracked is a proof that there's nothing achievable there (becmoing the Aamir of Dinia).

Re: # 27

Be that as it may ... it proves what I am saying. India had Hyderabad, Delhi, UP, parts of Kerala... pockets of large Muslim populations.

Can you think of similar areas in Pakistan or Bangladesh. According to your statistic below there are 17 million Hindus in the erstwhile Pakistan of 1947.

Besides... and please feel free to answer this question any time now.... how is this comparison relevant to massacres at partition when we are simply concerned about violence as it took place in 1947. The accurate comparison then surely can only be of East and West Punjab. It goes without saying that there were more Muslims in East Punjab (thanks to Gurdaspur) than Hindus and Sikhs in West Punjab. Today there are hardly any Muslims in East Punjab. That should answer the question raised here.

Guys, did you know that Jinnah's Great grand Son is living in sin with an Indian Super Star?

Man, I never knew that jinnah's line had gone up in the world, while Gandhi's grand sons and grat grand children are nowhere to be seen?