February 18th, 2008-Election Day
Jungraiz Pukhtunyar February 16, 2008
#242 Posted by tahmed32 on February 19, 2008 4:47:35 am
#237 skeptical: Fully agree with you. Chowk is a useful reminder why Pakistanis should always say "Ai Quaid-e-Azam tera ahsaan hai!". But enough about these spiteful little monkey-men from india.. :-)
Congratulations to you and all Pakistanis for this important win in the Pakistanis struggle for freedom from the rogue general!!
Congratulations to you and all Pakistanis for this important win in the Pakistanis struggle for freedom from the rogue general!!
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#241 Posted by ferozk on February 19, 2008 4:45:32 am
The jury is still out.
On this issue, I will have to agree with Masadi that the elections have not, yet, basically changed the existing structure of power in Pakistan. This election proves nothing. I do not mean to pour cold water over the celebrations and by all means, we should celebrate the end of a peaceful election and the acceptance of final results.
The real test will start with the formation of the coalition government and the question, how long will such a government last; will Musharraf exist within his constitutional role and will parties, that form the next government, realize that they have to co-opt to stay in power?
Once the celebration dies out, and the hang-over is slightly less, people will realize that coalition governments are are alot tricky to manage and once more the advantage will go to Musharraf to rig some kind of a house of cards in his support. The idea of removing Musharraf, in this sense, makes a valid point because any party that comes to power, will want it's "own man" in the presidential palace to prevent a palace putsch against its interests.
Reconcilation means and will be twisted to mean to forget the past and move on and that means the restoration of the judges will be mooted. The restoration of the 1973 constitution should predate November 3, 2007 and should actually go back to the time, when Z. A Bhutto made the first changes to it in the 1970s if the cause of the federation is really to mean more than mere lip service.
Masadi is right; what is required is a systemic overhaul and not a comestic facelift.
I hope, I am wrong but past, bitter, experience of living in Pakistan and seeing Pakistani politics, from a close and personal perspective, cautions me to be shy from making vaunted predictions about the future. The impatience of the Pakistani political parties is generally pegged at 3 years and once the anti-Musharraf honeymoon is over, and the real limitations of translating promises into deeds materializes, the old complaints will surface once more.
The army is still the linchpin of the process and the conventional wisdom is that due to international pressure and low domestic perceptions of legitimacy, the ISI was ordered not to interfer with the elections, but that does not gurantee anything for the future, because the machinations of the past do not breed any confidence in the future.
The people have voted and that is good, but will they be representated or will it be another round of dipping the pen in the company inkpot?
Too many questions to ponder, but as I said; I hope, my fears are misplaced.
Ciao
On this issue, I will have to agree with Masadi that the elections have not, yet, basically changed the existing structure of power in Pakistan. This election proves nothing. I do not mean to pour cold water over the celebrations and by all means, we should celebrate the end of a peaceful election and the acceptance of final results.
The real test will start with the formation of the coalition government and the question, how long will such a government last; will Musharraf exist within his constitutional role and will parties, that form the next government, realize that they have to co-opt to stay in power?
Once the celebration dies out, and the hang-over is slightly less, people will realize that coalition governments are are alot tricky to manage and once more the advantage will go to Musharraf to rig some kind of a house of cards in his support. The idea of removing Musharraf, in this sense, makes a valid point because any party that comes to power, will want it's "own man" in the presidential palace to prevent a palace putsch against its interests.
Reconcilation means and will be twisted to mean to forget the past and move on and that means the restoration of the judges will be mooted. The restoration of the 1973 constitution should predate November 3, 2007 and should actually go back to the time, when Z. A Bhutto made the first changes to it in the 1970s if the cause of the federation is really to mean more than mere lip service.
Masadi is right; what is required is a systemic overhaul and not a comestic facelift.
I hope, I am wrong but past, bitter, experience of living in Pakistan and seeing Pakistani politics, from a close and personal perspective, cautions me to be shy from making vaunted predictions about the future. The impatience of the Pakistani political parties is generally pegged at 3 years and once the anti-Musharraf honeymoon is over, and the real limitations of translating promises into deeds materializes, the old complaints will surface once more.
The army is still the linchpin of the process and the conventional wisdom is that due to international pressure and low domestic perceptions of legitimacy, the ISI was ordered not to interfer with the elections, but that does not gurantee anything for the future, because the machinations of the past do not breed any confidence in the future.
The people have voted and that is good, but will they be representated or will it be another round of dipping the pen in the company inkpot?
Too many questions to ponder, but as I said; I hope, my fears are misplaced.
Ciao
#240 Posted by Pew_Research on February 19, 2008 4:03:27 am
Re: # 238
The same Washington Post article also states:
"The United States has gotten into a pattern where it sends a high-level delegation over to beat Musharraf up, and then you find that within a week or two a high-value target has been identified. Then he ignores us for a while until we send over another high-level delegation," Clarke said.
The officials stressed that despite the occasional tactical success against it, such as the Libi strike, the threat posed by al-Qaeda's presence in Pakistan has been growing. As a senior U.S. official briefed on the strike said: "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then. But overall, we're in worse shape than we were 18 months ago."
With a coalition government coming to power in Pak, everyone will try passing the buck on GWOT. The 'resolve' that Musharraf had in waging the war in FATA will further dissipate. This will further antagonize the US.
The same Washington Post article also states:
"The United States has gotten into a pattern where it sends a high-level delegation over to beat Musharraf up, and then you find that within a week or two a high-value target has been identified. Then he ignores us for a while until we send over another high-level delegation," Clarke said.
The officials stressed that despite the occasional tactical success against it, such as the Libi strike, the threat posed by al-Qaeda's presence in Pakistan has been growing. As a senior U.S. official briefed on the strike said: "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then. But overall, we're in worse shape than we were 18 months ago."
With a coalition government coming to power in Pak, everyone will try passing the buck on GWOT. The 'resolve' that Musharraf had in waging the war in FATA will further dissipate. This will further antagonize the US.
#239 Posted by arjun_5 on February 19, 2008 4:01:53 am
#238 Posted by arjun_5 on February 19, 2008 3:39:11 am
Pakis let me clue you in...this article was released today to send a message to the new government...STFU while we kill AQ or we'll go and do it anyway....
Pakis let me clue you in...this article was released today to send a message to the new government...STFU while we kill AQ or we'll go and do it anyway....
#238 Posted by arjun_5 on February 19, 2008 3:39:11 am
elections over....female doghood to continue...
Unilateral Strike Called a Model For U.S. Operations in Pakistan
By Joby Warrick and Robin Wright
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, February 19, 2008; A01
In the predawn hours of Jan. 29, a CIA Predator aircraft flew in a slow arc above the Pakistani town of Mir Ali. The drone's operator, relying on information secretly passed to the CIA by local informants, clicked a computer mouse and sent the first of two Hellfire missiles hurtling toward a cluster of mud-brick buildings a few miles from the town center.
The missiles killed Abu Laith al-Libi, a senior al-Qaeda commander and a man who had repeatedly eluded the CIA's dragnet. It was the first successful strike against al-Qaeda's core leadership in two years, and it involved, U.S. officials say, an unusual degree of autonomy by the CIA inside Pakistan.
Having requested the Pakistani government's official permission for such strikes on previous occasions, only to be put off or turned down, this time the U.S. spy agency did not seek approval. The government of Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf was notified only as the operation was underway, according to the officials, who insisted on anonymity because of diplomatic sensitivities.
Officials say the incident was a model of how Washington often scores its rare victories these days in the fight against al-Qaeda inside Pakistan's national borders: It acts with assistance from well-paid sympathizers inside the country, but without getting the government's formal permission beforehand.
It is an approach that some U.S. officials say could be used more frequently this year, particularly if a power vacuum results from yesterday's election and associated political tumult. The administration also feels an increased sense of urgency about undermining al-Qaeda before President Bush leaves office, making it less hesitant, said one official familiar with the incident.
Hours before the attack, multiple sources said, the CIA was alerted to a convoy of vehicles that bore all the signatures of al-Qaeda officers on the move. Local residents -- who two sources said were not connected to the Pakistani army or intelligence service -- began monitoring the cluster of vehicles as it passed through North Waziristan, a rugged, largely lawless province that borders Afghanistan.
Eventually the local sources determined that the convoy carried up to seven al-Qaeda operatives and one individual who appeared to be of high rank. Asked how the local support had been arranged, a U.S. official familiar with the episode said, "All it takes is bags of cash."
Kamran Bokhari, director of Middle East analysis for Strategic Forecasting, a private intelligence group, said the informants could have been recruits from the Afghanistan side of the border, where the U.S. military operates freely.
"People in this region don't recognize the border, which is very porous," Bokhari said. "It is very likely that our people were in contact with intelligence sources who frequent both sides and could provide some kind of targeting information."
Unilateral Strike Called a Model For U.S. Operations in Pakistan
By Joby Warrick and Robin Wright
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, February 19, 2008; A01
In the predawn hours of Jan. 29, a CIA Predator aircraft flew in a slow arc above the Pakistani town of Mir Ali. The drone's operator, relying on information secretly passed to the CIA by local informants, clicked a computer mouse and sent the first of two Hellfire missiles hurtling toward a cluster of mud-brick buildings a few miles from the town center.
The missiles killed Abu Laith al-Libi, a senior al-Qaeda commander and a man who had repeatedly eluded the CIA's dragnet. It was the first successful strike against al-Qaeda's core leadership in two years, and it involved, U.S. officials say, an unusual degree of autonomy by the CIA inside Pakistan.
Having requested the Pakistani government's official permission for such strikes on previous occasions, only to be put off or turned down, this time the U.S. spy agency did not seek approval. The government of Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf was notified only as the operation was underway, according to the officials, who insisted on anonymity because of diplomatic sensitivities.
Officials say the incident was a model of how Washington often scores its rare victories these days in the fight against al-Qaeda inside Pakistan's national borders: It acts with assistance from well-paid sympathizers inside the country, but without getting the government's formal permission beforehand.
It is an approach that some U.S. officials say could be used more frequently this year, particularly if a power vacuum results from yesterday's election and associated political tumult. The administration also feels an increased sense of urgency about undermining al-Qaeda before President Bush leaves office, making it less hesitant, said one official familiar with the incident.
Hours before the attack, multiple sources said, the CIA was alerted to a convoy of vehicles that bore all the signatures of al-Qaeda officers on the move. Local residents -- who two sources said were not connected to the Pakistani army or intelligence service -- began monitoring the cluster of vehicles as it passed through North Waziristan, a rugged, largely lawless province that borders Afghanistan.
Eventually the local sources determined that the convoy carried up to seven al-Qaeda operatives and one individual who appeared to be of high rank. Asked how the local support had been arranged, a U.S. official familiar with the episode said, "All it takes is bags of cash."
Kamran Bokhari, director of Middle East analysis for Strategic Forecasting, a private intelligence group, said the informants could have been recruits from the Afghanistan side of the border, where the U.S. military operates freely.
"People in this region don't recognize the border, which is very porous," Bokhari said. "It is very likely that our people were in contact with intelligence sources who frequent both sides and could provide some kind of targeting information."
#237 Posted by Skeptical on February 19, 2008 3:34:04 am
Re: # 233
You disappoint me to no end....
Initially I had thought that you were a secular person.....
but u r just a biased right wing hindu....
dear friend u just have a hatred against pakistan....
the reality is that mullahs have been wiped out in NWFP....
the verdict for NS is not for mullahism....
but for restoration of judiciary.....
But a religous fundo like u wont understand it...
after all religous right is religous right.....
whether it is mullah in Pakstan.....
or pundits like u in India.......
You disappoint me to no end....
Initially I had thought that you were a secular person.....
but u r just a biased right wing hindu....
dear friend u just have a hatred against pakistan....
the reality is that mullahs have been wiped out in NWFP....
the verdict for NS is not for mullahism....
but for restoration of judiciary.....
But a religous fundo like u wont understand it...
after all religous right is religous right.....
whether it is mullah in Pakstan.....
or pundits like u in India.......
#236 Posted by hamidm2 on February 19, 2008 3:30:31 am
...... now that the election is pakistan is over, can we have a vote on chowk and ban masadi ? ........ it is time to get rid of this piece of scum ! ..... who will second the motion ? ....... if not we will have to let manto take care of him the old-fashioned way with a call to billa in gowalmandi ........
#235 Posted by arjun_5 on February 19, 2008 3:29:12 am
So is the bombing of the jihadis going to stop now?
#234 Posted by hamidm2 on February 19, 2008 3:24:57 am
Re: # 227
.... about 40% - ranging from as high as 65% in some places in karachi and punjab to 12% in some parts of the tribal belt ..... about the same as usual - if the turnout had been larger, pml-q would have been beaten even worse .... they managed to squeak in some seats with only a couiple of hundred votes ........
....... all in all, a good election ...... now let the games begin!
.... about 40% - ranging from as high as 65% in some places in karachi and punjab to 12% in some parts of the tribal belt ..... about the same as usual - if the turnout had been larger, pml-q would have been beaten even worse .... they managed to squeak in some seats with only a couiple of hundred votes ........
....... all in all, a good election ...... now let the games begin!
#233 Posted by laddu on February 19, 2008 3:13:13 am
The man to watch is NS now. Mullahs who oppose Mush are on his side and that is why he won.
I think Jehad is going to be hot on the democratic agenda of Pakistan.
I think Jehad is going to be hot on the democratic agenda of Pakistan.
#232 Posted by laddu on February 19, 2008 3:11:24 am
Hey,
I still think that NS had some say with the mullahs in the removal of BB.
NS guy is the real guy to watch because I think all the mullahs were very comfortable with him and he was trying to push Islamization in Pakistani polity.
He may be shedding tears about BB but I think he was really comfortable with BB out of scene.
I still think that NS had some say with the mullahs in the removal of BB.
NS guy is the real guy to watch because I think all the mullahs were very comfortable with him and he was trying to push Islamization in Pakistani polity.
He may be shedding tears about BB but I think he was really comfortable with BB out of scene.
#231 Posted by laddu on February 19, 2008 2:57:30 am
Re: # 220
A typical reaction is to act like an ostrich.
Bury the head and assume it is a "conspiracy" - one word that makes you comfortable with your definite truths and stops the mind from making any critical reflection on them.
But, yes once you keep on questioning them they start peeling off like the plastic paint in the heat of Sun.
A typical reaction is to act like an ostrich.
Bury the head and assume it is a "conspiracy" - one word that makes you comfortable with your definite truths and stops the mind from making any critical reflection on them.
But, yes once you keep on questioning them they start peeling off like the plastic paint in the heat of Sun.
#230 Posted by TaureanKhan on February 19, 2008 2:34:26 am
Re: # 225
Masadi,
I am looking at your website... will compare your arguments with the claims made by the anti-Muslim tirade... I will postpone my comments for another relevant article... this article, though talking about elections definitely has a link with the religious aspects.... in our society all facets of social life, even elections have religious undertones of some sort.. so my comments are not that off the mark after all!!
on your website, I looked at your comments regarding polygamy..... it takes up the usual arguments ... let me dig deep and will get back to you and to the forum...
... still my opologies for going off the topic.
regards
Masadi,
I am looking at your website... will compare your arguments with the claims made by the anti-Muslim tirade... I will postpone my comments for another relevant article... this article, though talking about elections definitely has a link with the religious aspects.... in our society all facets of social life, even elections have religious undertones of some sort.. so my comments are not that off the mark after all!!
on your website, I looked at your comments regarding polygamy..... it takes up the usual arguments ... let me dig deep and will get back to you and to the forum...
... still my opologies for going off the topic.
regards
#229 Posted by shankar on February 19, 2008 2:33:58 am
My hats off to the brave voters of Pakistan. You have asserted your destiny. I am very happy for the people of Pakistan.
#228 Posted by Dash_Dot on February 19, 2008 2:30:16 am
apparently it is fairly low around 30% nation wide!
can any one confirm this
can any one confirm this
#227 Posted by Dash_Dot on February 19, 2008 1:59:23 am
What has been the voter turnout?
Anyone...manto, zeemax, tahmed32, skeptical, masadi.......
Anyone...manto, zeemax, tahmed32, skeptical, masadi.......
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