At Last...Nationalism at Last
ahmad hayat February 19, 2008
#17 Posted by 1Safe on February 20, 2008 2:42:55 pm
#16
1. You didn't answer if you are a federalist or a separatist?
2. I am neither Urdu speaking nor a MQM supporter. All I can say is that MQM and ANP have a great deal in common: secularism, women rights, progressive social policies; they are both hated by jihadis, etc.
3. Nobody wants a 'defragmented country', not ANP, and not MQM. That's not what they mean by reforming the federation.
Good night.
1. You didn't answer if you are a federalist or a separatist?
2. I am neither Urdu speaking nor a MQM supporter. All I can say is that MQM and ANP have a great deal in common: secularism, women rights, progressive social policies; they are both hated by jihadis, etc.
3. Nobody wants a 'defragmented country', not ANP, and not MQM. That's not what they mean by reforming the federation.
Good night.
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#18 Posted by Ranjit on February 20, 2008 4:42:25 pm
Ahmad sahib,
The basic reality is that pakistan is finally maturing as a nation. For most of the past 60 years, the focus was on opposing india due to the legacy of the pre-partition political feud between congress and muslim league. That feud naturally translated into the adoption of a non-Indian identity. Indian identity is tied to Indian languages, culture and indigenous religious practices, just like Arabian identity is tied to Arabian language and culture and inigenous religious practices (islam). Therefore, in order to be 'non-Indian', pakistan wanted to negate the local languages and culture and cling on to Islam for all sources of identity.
Now the key thing to note is that the Indian leadership displayed a lot of maturity in the early stages of Indian nationhood, where they did NOT allow the pre-partition feud to carry over after partition, at least within Indian borders. In other words, India made a conscious decision thanks to Nehru to divorce its identity from local religious practices i.e. hinduism and focus only on an identity based on language and culture by adopting a secular constitution. This decision was driven by a mature outlook to the reality of having a large muslim minority as well as an opportunistic mindset to get Kashmir and other muslim majority areas into India.
Pakistan leadership never showed the same level of maturity. The pre-partition feud continued even after partition by continuing to reject local language and culture in favor of an exclusively religion based identitity, mainly due to insecurity of somehow negating the partition process by supporting anything else but an islamic identity. It has taken nearly 60 years for Pakistan to grow out of that insecure mindset and give some weightage to other attributes. It is not surprising that today Aitzaz Ahsan is a leading candidate for PM while the MMA has been routed. This change has happened because pakistan now realizes that india has no apetite for change of borders and there are nukes on both sides. Therefore, the need to clutch on to a purely religious identity at the cost of suppressing local identities makes no sense any more.
The long term issue is how to avoid the fate of Yugoslavia, which is the natural result of unrestrained nationalism. India was able to get away from that fate, by a very crafty constitutional process that enabled everyone to have a place at the table while enabling economic advantages of staying together. Even then, we have seen many attempts to split up in punjab, kashmir and elsewhere. Therefore, unfettered nationalism is not the panacea for all evils, its just a natural state of being of every country and pakistan has merely transformed into a normal country at last. The bigger issue is whether synergies can be built across pakistan so that people will find it beneficial to stay together in spite of all the nationalist forces.
The basic reality is that pakistan is finally maturing as a nation. For most of the past 60 years, the focus was on opposing india due to the legacy of the pre-partition political feud between congress and muslim league. That feud naturally translated into the adoption of a non-Indian identity. Indian identity is tied to Indian languages, culture and indigenous religious practices, just like Arabian identity is tied to Arabian language and culture and inigenous religious practices (islam). Therefore, in order to be 'non-Indian', pakistan wanted to negate the local languages and culture and cling on to Islam for all sources of identity.
Now the key thing to note is that the Indian leadership displayed a lot of maturity in the early stages of Indian nationhood, where they did NOT allow the pre-partition feud to carry over after partition, at least within Indian borders. In other words, India made a conscious decision thanks to Nehru to divorce its identity from local religious practices i.e. hinduism and focus only on an identity based on language and culture by adopting a secular constitution. This decision was driven by a mature outlook to the reality of having a large muslim minority as well as an opportunistic mindset to get Kashmir and other muslim majority areas into India.
Pakistan leadership never showed the same level of maturity. The pre-partition feud continued even after partition by continuing to reject local language and culture in favor of an exclusively religion based identitity, mainly due to insecurity of somehow negating the partition process by supporting anything else but an islamic identity. It has taken nearly 60 years for Pakistan to grow out of that insecure mindset and give some weightage to other attributes. It is not surprising that today Aitzaz Ahsan is a leading candidate for PM while the MMA has been routed. This change has happened because pakistan now realizes that india has no apetite for change of borders and there are nukes on both sides. Therefore, the need to clutch on to a purely religious identity at the cost of suppressing local identities makes no sense any more.
The long term issue is how to avoid the fate of Yugoslavia, which is the natural result of unrestrained nationalism. India was able to get away from that fate, by a very crafty constitutional process that enabled everyone to have a place at the table while enabling economic advantages of staying together. Even then, we have seen many attempts to split up in punjab, kashmir and elsewhere. Therefore, unfettered nationalism is not the panacea for all evils, its just a natural state of being of every country and pakistan has merely transformed into a normal country at last. The bigger issue is whether synergies can be built across pakistan so that people will find it beneficial to stay together in spite of all the nationalist forces.
#19 Posted by Eklavya on February 20, 2008 5:53:24 pm
ahmad hayat
I would give you a slightly different view than that presented by Ranjit. Disclosing, of course, the obvious: Ranjit is quite knowledgeable about Pakistan and Pakistani people, and is an Indian with a good heart. My views are totally impersonal. I possess only the most rudimentary understanding of, or the barest of interest in, the internal politics of Pakistan. I am drawn to the topic only because of connection with Badshah Khan/ANP, and for any implications all this may have for India.
My speculation is that you, my friend, have a significant challenge on your hands. In your heart, you do not really belong to Pakistan - the nation as conceived in 1930s, formed in 1947, or as re-formed in 1971. Just as Baadshah Khan did not belong to Pakistan, either in 1947 or till the date he died.
You are being very unfair to Urdu. Urdu is not at all the language just of the descendants of the Mughals/Nawabs of Delhi/Lucknow. During the course of the Muslim League's struggle for national freedom, it became the language of educated Muslims living in India. A Gujrati Muslim was its greatest champion. A Punjabi Muslim its greatest poet.
Post-Pakistan, barring inevitable laggards within different groups, Punjabi Muslims, Kashmiri Muslims, Sindhi Muslims, and your own Pushtoon followers of Islam willingly learnt/took pride in the (Indian Islamic?) language of Urdu, on a tacit but well-understood project of forging a common Pakistani nation - clearly distinguished from the nation of Hindus/Sikhs sharing indigenous ethnicities.
True, Baadshah Khan, and many ANP stalwarts even at later dates, never joined in that (Indian) Islamic consensus and Pakistani view. There wasn't any need. Baadshah Khan never belonged to Pakistan, nor Pakistan to him. For instance, did it matter whether a Sindhi Hindu, or a Punjabi Sikh, or a Pushtoon Hindu accepted the Pakistani view? It did not. Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan was irrelevant to Pakistan.
Now, sixty years down the line, promoting ANP (or even Hindu) brand of land-based/geographical nationalism is very unfair to the millions of Pakistanis who left the safety and comfort of 'their own lands' on a clear and unambiguous promise of religious nationalism, nurturing the dream of building a great Pakistani nation.
A solemn promise that Punjabi Muslims, Sindhi Muslims, Pakhtoon Muslims, and Balochi Muslims made. And a bargain that these other Muslims who risked everything worked very hard to keep.
----------------
You may not like it, but logically, too, they are on a strong wicket. You did not explain why land-based nationalism may be better. Nikhat, OTOH, presented excellent arguments in favor of promoting religious nationalism among human beings. Ana thoughtfully expanded on the grave risks posed by/general undesirability of ethnic/land-based nationalism.
One guesses, other than unreformed ANP people and Balochi nationalists most Pakistanis sympathize with Nikhat and Ana's pov (just as most non-communist Indians/Hindus are hard-wired to ridicule and oppose that sort of religious nationalist narrative).
Unlike Ranjit bhai, I see no change. Pakistani leaders did not reject indigenous traditions and nationalities and 'India' because they were not wise, but because Pakistan would not have made the remotest sense otherwise (as it did not to Baadshah Khan - right or wrong). With his "5000-years of Punjabi separation from India" thesis, Aitzaz Ahasan can appear no different to an Indic person than did either Jinnah sahib or Allama Iqbal.
There isn't any difference. If someone spoke with Mr. Ahsan, I am quite confident he will himself acknowledge an identity of opinion. The difference is completely perceptual - based on specific national and international conditions that exist today, at this moment alone.
----------------
Where does that self-confessedly speculative view leave true ANP believers living in Pakistan?
Unless they take the route of (once Jiye-Sindh supporting) Sindhi Muslims, probably nowhere comfortable, not for too long. But then, Sindhi Muslims did not produce (could not have produced) a Badshah Khan. Their pride, their joy, their hope, PPP, is no ANP and has never been one.
For whatever it is worth, I would suggest they stop this nationalist business, and take the Sindhi Muslim route, turning themselves from a people of Baadshah Khan and Asfandyar Wali Khan to a people of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto.
They have no other realistic choice. For, IMO, these elections were not about Bachcha Khan/Indian style nationalism at all. Nor will ANP be the net or long-term gainer unless it totally changes itself and becomes a Pakistani party like all others.
I would give you a slightly different view than that presented by Ranjit. Disclosing, of course, the obvious: Ranjit is quite knowledgeable about Pakistan and Pakistani people, and is an Indian with a good heart. My views are totally impersonal. I possess only the most rudimentary understanding of, or the barest of interest in, the internal politics of Pakistan. I am drawn to the topic only because of connection with Badshah Khan/ANP, and for any implications all this may have for India.
My speculation is that you, my friend, have a significant challenge on your hands. In your heart, you do not really belong to Pakistan - the nation as conceived in 1930s, formed in 1947, or as re-formed in 1971. Just as Baadshah Khan did not belong to Pakistan, either in 1947 or till the date he died.
You are being very unfair to Urdu. Urdu is not at all the language just of the descendants of the Mughals/Nawabs of Delhi/Lucknow. During the course of the Muslim League's struggle for national freedom, it became the language of educated Muslims living in India. A Gujrati Muslim was its greatest champion. A Punjabi Muslim its greatest poet.
Post-Pakistan, barring inevitable laggards within different groups, Punjabi Muslims, Kashmiri Muslims, Sindhi Muslims, and your own Pushtoon followers of Islam willingly learnt/took pride in the (Indian Islamic?) language of Urdu, on a tacit but well-understood project of forging a common Pakistani nation - clearly distinguished from the nation of Hindus/Sikhs sharing indigenous ethnicities.
True, Baadshah Khan, and many ANP stalwarts even at later dates, never joined in that (Indian) Islamic consensus and Pakistani view. There wasn't any need. Baadshah Khan never belonged to Pakistan, nor Pakistan to him. For instance, did it matter whether a Sindhi Hindu, or a Punjabi Sikh, or a Pushtoon Hindu accepted the Pakistani view? It did not. Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan was irrelevant to Pakistan.
Now, sixty years down the line, promoting ANP (or even Hindu) brand of land-based/geographical nationalism is very unfair to the millions of Pakistanis who left the safety and comfort of 'their own lands' on a clear and unambiguous promise of religious nationalism, nurturing the dream of building a great Pakistani nation.
A solemn promise that Punjabi Muslims, Sindhi Muslims, Pakhtoon Muslims, and Balochi Muslims made. And a bargain that these other Muslims who risked everything worked very hard to keep.
----------------
You may not like it, but logically, too, they are on a strong wicket. You did not explain why land-based nationalism may be better. Nikhat, OTOH, presented excellent arguments in favor of promoting religious nationalism among human beings. Ana thoughtfully expanded on the grave risks posed by/general undesirability of ethnic/land-based nationalism.
One guesses, other than unreformed ANP people and Balochi nationalists most Pakistanis sympathize with Nikhat and Ana's pov (just as most non-communist Indians/Hindus are hard-wired to ridicule and oppose that sort of religious nationalist narrative).
Unlike Ranjit bhai, I see no change. Pakistani leaders did not reject indigenous traditions and nationalities and 'India' because they were not wise, but because Pakistan would not have made the remotest sense otherwise (as it did not to Baadshah Khan - right or wrong). With his "5000-years of Punjabi separation from India" thesis, Aitzaz Ahasan can appear no different to an Indic person than did either Jinnah sahib or Allama Iqbal.
There isn't any difference. If someone spoke with Mr. Ahsan, I am quite confident he will himself acknowledge an identity of opinion. The difference is completely perceptual - based on specific national and international conditions that exist today, at this moment alone.
----------------
Where does that self-confessedly speculative view leave true ANP believers living in Pakistan?
Unless they take the route of (once Jiye-Sindh supporting) Sindhi Muslims, probably nowhere comfortable, not for too long. But then, Sindhi Muslims did not produce (could not have produced) a Badshah Khan. Their pride, their joy, their hope, PPP, is no ANP and has never been one.
For whatever it is worth, I would suggest they stop this nationalist business, and take the Sindhi Muslim route, turning themselves from a people of Baadshah Khan and Asfandyar Wali Khan to a people of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto.
They have no other realistic choice. For, IMO, these elections were not about Bachcha Khan/Indian style nationalism at all. Nor will ANP be the net or long-term gainer unless it totally changes itself and becomes a Pakistani party like all others.
#20 Posted by bubba on February 20, 2008 10:02:56 pm
ahmad hayat sahib,
great article, however, one caveat is missing. do you think that the announced $1B USaid package for NWFP had anything to do with the winning of ANP? regardless of how you slice it, what matters is ANP winning in the most troubled area of Pakistan.
great article, however, one caveat is missing. do you think that the announced $1B USaid package for NWFP had anything to do with the winning of ANP? regardless of how you slice it, what matters is ANP winning in the most troubled area of Pakistan.
#21 Posted by Nikhat on February 20, 2008 10:11:32 pm
Re: # 19"Now, sixty years down the line, promoting ANP (or even Hindu) brand of land-based/geographical nationalism is very unfair to the millions of Pakistanis who left the safety and comfort of 'their own lands' on a clear and unambiguous promise of religious nationalism, nurturing the dream of building a great Pakistani nation".
Exactly!Thanks Sir
You see Hayat sahib, how this extreme emotion of racism (Pushtoon nationalism) is plaguing your logical mind and humanitarian soul. You are suffering from the same fanaticism of which you blame radical Islamists, Jihadis or other religious bigots. You seem to have high expectation of ANP which has no vested interest according to you but I prophecy that soon you will be witnessing ANP, MQM and PML N shaking hands to form a govt. along with PPP in N.A. forgetting the carnage of 12th May forgetting all about poor Pushtoons. ANP MQM, PPP (under the leadership of Zardari) PML-N and PML –Q have only one mission to come into power.
ANP Sir, like other separatist, extremist, nationalist movements just harp of nationalism and chant attractive slogans of “fighting for the right” for oppressed class based on highly volatile issues like race, language, land or religion. We the Karachiite have witnessed what MQM did to Urdu speaking people. They had so much power and federal funding but they did not fulfilled the top most demand of Mohajirs i.e. getting rid of ill-famed biased “quota system”. Urdu speaking people of Karachi had high expectations from MQM and they got united on one platform with a hope that their political strength would bring back to them their lost rights. On the contrary Karachi suffered, Karachi bled, Karachi’s educational system deteriorated, every young boy was armed with guns instead of books and Karachi was raped by this Mafia group. This is what these so-called leaders of separatist movements do. They did it in Sindh, in Baloachistan and Karachi.
Let’s see what ANP does for Pushtoons.
My parents migrated from India so my mother tongue is Urdu but I was born and raised in Karachi learned Sindhi. I brought my personal life here just to let you know that we grew up in those times, in that environment where Mohajir nationalism is the way for survival. But my parents always discouraged us to call ourselves as Mohajir. They told us we were migrated not you. They told us we are Pakistanis who speak Urdu language. I just want you to know that not all Urdu Speaking Mohajirs favors MQM like not all Pushtoons favors ANP. One can celebrate one’s own culture, one’s own living styles, food, and richness of their vernacular, prose and poetry while living within diverse human groups if one just rise himself up from petty negative issues. In this way man forms a bigger human community, humanity.
The lessons we as a family learnt from our atheist,liberal Mohajir father, Muslim leaguee(hard core fan of MAJ) Mohajir mother, from our Pakistani but Agha Khani school teachers, many of our Punjabi, Mohajir , Sindhi, Memon, Ismailee, Christian, Shia colleagues/friends and according to you “sham education from state media”(BTW we are proud of PTV and did learn lot from Sohail Rana, Ashfaque ahmed, Ubaidullah Baig, abdul Qadir Juneijo and many more Pakistanis) helped us to accept, respect, incorporate and enjoy multi cultures of not only Pakistan but of entire world while keeping our identity as Pakistani Muslims intact. You know as a result of that upbringing my brother married to Sindhi speaking girl, another of my brother married to girl whose parents are from Multan and I married a Pushtoon formin a mini Pakistan.( smile plz)
So instead of instigating prejudices, promoting nationalism and advocating more fragmentation within Pakistan start movement for justice and equality for all. Join Tehreek-e-Insaaf (haha just kidding).
Victor Hugo wrote in his novel Les Miserable, "Never let us fear robbers or murderers. These are external and small dangers; let us fear ourselves; prejudices are the real robbers, vices the true murderers. The great dangers are within ourselves. Let us not trouble about what threaten our head or purse, and only think what threaten our soul."
Nikhat Riaz
Exactly!Thanks Sir
You see Hayat sahib, how this extreme emotion of racism (Pushtoon nationalism) is plaguing your logical mind and humanitarian soul. You are suffering from the same fanaticism of which you blame radical Islamists, Jihadis or other religious bigots. You seem to have high expectation of ANP which has no vested interest according to you but I prophecy that soon you will be witnessing ANP, MQM and PML N shaking hands to form a govt. along with PPP in N.A. forgetting the carnage of 12th May forgetting all about poor Pushtoons. ANP MQM, PPP (under the leadership of Zardari) PML-N and PML –Q have only one mission to come into power.
ANP Sir, like other separatist, extremist, nationalist movements just harp of nationalism and chant attractive slogans of “fighting for the right” for oppressed class based on highly volatile issues like race, language, land or religion. We the Karachiite have witnessed what MQM did to Urdu speaking people. They had so much power and federal funding but they did not fulfilled the top most demand of Mohajirs i.e. getting rid of ill-famed biased “quota system”. Urdu speaking people of Karachi had high expectations from MQM and they got united on one platform with a hope that their political strength would bring back to them their lost rights. On the contrary Karachi suffered, Karachi bled, Karachi’s educational system deteriorated, every young boy was armed with guns instead of books and Karachi was raped by this Mafia group. This is what these so-called leaders of separatist movements do. They did it in Sindh, in Baloachistan and Karachi.
Let’s see what ANP does for Pushtoons.
My parents migrated from India so my mother tongue is Urdu but I was born and raised in Karachi learned Sindhi. I brought my personal life here just to let you know that we grew up in those times, in that environment where Mohajir nationalism is the way for survival. But my parents always discouraged us to call ourselves as Mohajir. They told us we were migrated not you. They told us we are Pakistanis who speak Urdu language. I just want you to know that not all Urdu Speaking Mohajirs favors MQM like not all Pushtoons favors ANP. One can celebrate one’s own culture, one’s own living styles, food, and richness of their vernacular, prose and poetry while living within diverse human groups if one just rise himself up from petty negative issues. In this way man forms a bigger human community, humanity.
The lessons we as a family learnt from our atheist,liberal Mohajir father, Muslim leaguee(hard core fan of MAJ) Mohajir mother, from our Pakistani but Agha Khani school teachers, many of our Punjabi, Mohajir , Sindhi, Memon, Ismailee, Christian, Shia colleagues/friends and according to you “sham education from state media”(BTW we are proud of PTV and did learn lot from Sohail Rana, Ashfaque ahmed, Ubaidullah Baig, abdul Qadir Juneijo and many more Pakistanis) helped us to accept, respect, incorporate and enjoy multi cultures of not only Pakistan but of entire world while keeping our identity as Pakistani Muslims intact. You know as a result of that upbringing my brother married to Sindhi speaking girl, another of my brother married to girl whose parents are from Multan and I married a Pushtoon formin a mini Pakistan.( smile plz)
So instead of instigating prejudices, promoting nationalism and advocating more fragmentation within Pakistan start movement for justice and equality for all. Join Tehreek-e-Insaaf (haha just kidding).
Victor Hugo wrote in his novel Les Miserable, "Never let us fear robbers or murderers. These are external and small dangers; let us fear ourselves; prejudices are the real robbers, vices the true murderers. The great dangers are within ourselves. Let us not trouble about what threaten our head or purse, and only think what threaten our soul."
Nikhat Riaz
#22 Posted by haji004 on February 21, 2008 12:55:17 am
I would try to answer all the comments one by one but I can't summarise them in one response, so please bear with me...
First thing...Read the article "Militant Liberalism" and its interacts...many of the questions would be answered there...
Ranjit...you need to be a lot more aggressive while analysing post-independence Pakistani politics and politicians...saying that they did not show maturity is wrong...They did do exactly what they were meant to do...safeguarding the interests of Feudals in Pakistan, undermining the political institutions by not abolishing Feudalism and strengthening urdu-speaking bureaucratic control...This is not at all a question of maturity...This is a question of how they defined their objectives...The objective was to secure a piece of land for Urdu-speaking (self-proclaimed non-Indians ethnically) elites who ran the risk of living as minorities in the regions that they had governed (on the basis of military conquest) for centuries...
It brings wry smiles to my lips when urdu-speaking classes here in Pakistan try to efface indigenous cultures by proclaiming equality for all while assuming that Urdu and by this proxy they would be considered ascendant by default: However they are the most clanish (minority fear factor)
Its just like Jews in the Occident. Crying for equality and justice all the time while being most despotic and nepotist all the time. The reason is the same, they don't have a region and a localised culture hence they can not support "Nationalism".
Only Jews could have created the culture destroying theory of Socialism and indeed it were them (if anybody has cared to read the evolution of Socialism...from Marx, Trotsky, Lenin to Gulag Torturers in USSR...sounds like a Jewish wedding really) Similarly only Urdu-speaking people living in Indian midlands would have come up with the sham theory of Pakistani Nationalism.
And then we say naïvely...Oh there are many similarities between Israel and Pakistan...both are ideological states...what we don't say is that both were created on the grave of nationalism by the people who don't have a region and a localised culture...
More of it soon...
Ahmad Hayat
First thing...Read the article "Militant Liberalism" and its interacts...many of the questions would be answered there...
Ranjit...you need to be a lot more aggressive while analysing post-independence Pakistani politics and politicians...saying that they did not show maturity is wrong...They did do exactly what they were meant to do...safeguarding the interests of Feudals in Pakistan, undermining the political institutions by not abolishing Feudalism and strengthening urdu-speaking bureaucratic control...This is not at all a question of maturity...This is a question of how they defined their objectives...The objective was to secure a piece of land for Urdu-speaking (self-proclaimed non-Indians ethnically) elites who ran the risk of living as minorities in the regions that they had governed (on the basis of military conquest) for centuries...
It brings wry smiles to my lips when urdu-speaking classes here in Pakistan try to efface indigenous cultures by proclaiming equality for all while assuming that Urdu and by this proxy they would be considered ascendant by default: However they are the most clanish (minority fear factor)
Its just like Jews in the Occident. Crying for equality and justice all the time while being most despotic and nepotist all the time. The reason is the same, they don't have a region and a localised culture hence they can not support "Nationalism".
Only Jews could have created the culture destroying theory of Socialism and indeed it were them (if anybody has cared to read the evolution of Socialism...from Marx, Trotsky, Lenin to Gulag Torturers in USSR...sounds like a Jewish wedding really) Similarly only Urdu-speaking people living in Indian midlands would have come up with the sham theory of Pakistani Nationalism.
And then we say naïvely...Oh there are many similarities between Israel and Pakistan...both are ideological states...what we don't say is that both were created on the grave of nationalism by the people who don't have a region and a localised culture...
More of it soon...
Ahmad Hayat
#23 Posted by haji004 on February 21, 2008 1:06:02 am
Re: # 20
Bubba...the US hasn't even started licking ANP's a**...$1 Billion is peanuts really...US would give its right hand for ANP's collaboration...thats why I wrote of Faiz coming to mind...Mardood-e-Haram masnad peh bithayay jayayin gay...US tried to subdue ANP by proxy using every Pakistani despotic regime...Qayyum Khan's ML,Ayub Khan, Bhutto, Zia...not now...things aer going to be very interesting in the times to come...Karachi Urdu-speaking have again proved by voting for MQM (38 seats in PA) that they are with the Army...the greatest despot in Pakistan working for US interests...and we keep on hearing on this forum..."NOT ALL URDU SPEAKING VOTE FOR MQM"...well they do...the polls have shown...
In any case it is self-evident that they are not going to vote for ANP...even though it is anti-feudal, anti-military, anti-US...why , because ANP for them is a regional party...voting for MQM is good...but if if others think on the same line...it is bad...intellectual dishonesty at its summit really...
Ahmad Hayat
Bubba...the US hasn't even started licking ANP's a**...$1 Billion is peanuts really...US would give its right hand for ANP's collaboration...thats why I wrote of Faiz coming to mind...Mardood-e-Haram masnad peh bithayay jayayin gay...US tried to subdue ANP by proxy using every Pakistani despotic regime...Qayyum Khan's ML,Ayub Khan, Bhutto, Zia...not now...things aer going to be very interesting in the times to come...Karachi Urdu-speaking have again proved by voting for MQM (38 seats in PA) that they are with the Army...the greatest despot in Pakistan working for US interests...and we keep on hearing on this forum..."NOT ALL URDU SPEAKING VOTE FOR MQM"...well they do...the polls have shown...
In any case it is self-evident that they are not going to vote for ANP...even though it is anti-feudal, anti-military, anti-US...why , because ANP for them is a regional party...voting for MQM is good...but if if others think on the same line...it is bad...intellectual dishonesty at its summit really...
Ahmad Hayat
#24 Posted by haji004 on February 21, 2008 1:18:08 am
Re: # 19
Eklavaya...you got it all wrong bro...ANP can not take the route of PPP...they are anti-Feudal...no problem if you have never been to Pakistan...use internet to gather information...PPP is a people's party in name only...this is a band of feudals...and if you have read the article...I have written about a feudal democracy...I would suggest you read the interacts of "Militant Liberalism"...that would do you good ...I hope sincerely...
The greatness of Sardar Patel lies in the fact that he dismantled the medieval ( that was kept intact by the British) Feudal system prevailing in India...on the other hand, leaders this side were either Aligarh educated and/or urdu-speaking ex-Feudal lords (Nawabzada Liaqat Ali Kahn...the name gives the hint) or Punjabi/Sindhi Feudal lords...kept in intact and legitimized it...hence the pseudo super-position of pseudo democracy over this Feudal fabric...
PPP...socialism preached by Feudals??? biggest joke...and even bigger irony...people believing it too...
Ahmad Hayat
Eklavaya...you got it all wrong bro...ANP can not take the route of PPP...they are anti-Feudal...no problem if you have never been to Pakistan...use internet to gather information...PPP is a people's party in name only...this is a band of feudals...and if you have read the article...I have written about a feudal democracy...I would suggest you read the interacts of "Militant Liberalism"...that would do you good ...I hope sincerely...
The greatness of Sardar Patel lies in the fact that he dismantled the medieval ( that was kept intact by the British) Feudal system prevailing in India...on the other hand, leaders this side were either Aligarh educated and/or urdu-speaking ex-Feudal lords (Nawabzada Liaqat Ali Kahn...the name gives the hint) or Punjabi/Sindhi Feudal lords...kept in intact and legitimized it...hence the pseudo super-position of pseudo democracy over this Feudal fabric...
PPP...socialism preached by Feudals??? biggest joke...and even bigger irony...people believing it too...
Ahmad Hayat
#25 Posted by tahir on February 21, 2008 7:22:34 am
Re: # 6
Well done for answering all. You need not answer me!
You said:
Nikhat you st**k of the sham education..
I say:
Address her nicely if you disagree. Do you wish to progress beyond first-draft writing or not?
You said:
We are muslims of conquest. I am totally against this sham philosophy of "Islam-is-a-mode-of-life"...complete BS
I say:
Appalling views Mr.Hayat! Have you been reading Rushdie? Who told you all this? If you spend any more time doing that doctorate in the land of fashion freaks, sex orgies, and the guillotine, not much will remain spiritually within you.
You said:
...This Islam is just the slavery of Arabs...intellectual, moral, psychological, cultural and finally economical.
I say:
What do you recommend, Nicholas Sarkozy wearing a French letter?
Now take a walk around the Airbus factory and think what present you are going to bring for Pakistan.
Peace.
Well done for answering all. You need not answer me!
You said:
Nikhat you st**k of the sham education..
I say:
Address her nicely if you disagree. Do you wish to progress beyond first-draft writing or not?
You said:
We are muslims of conquest. I am totally against this sham philosophy of "Islam-is-a-mode-of-life"...complete BS
I say:
Appalling views Mr.Hayat! Have you been reading Rushdie? Who told you all this? If you spend any more time doing that doctorate in the land of fashion freaks, sex orgies, and the guillotine, not much will remain spiritually within you.
You said:
...This Islam is just the slavery of Arabs...intellectual, moral, psychological, cultural and finally economical.
I say:
What do you recommend, Nicholas Sarkozy wearing a French letter?
Now take a walk around the Airbus factory and think what present you are going to bring for Pakistan.
Peace.
#26 Posted by CheGuevara on February 21, 2008 9:47:13 am
haji004,
Your lack of knowledge and ignorance is surprising for someone who likes to throw around a lot of pretentious meaningless words. Your assertion that Urdu has been imposed on what remains of Pakistan is laughable. Urdu was imposed on the Bengali's with the active consent and participation of the Punjabi/West Pakistani political elite as well as the evil matarua's. Since the separation, no Urdu speaker has held any kind of prominent position in any setup until the outgoing thugs. If populists like ZAB (I suppose he is a hero of yours) could steal entire industries in broad daylight as well as severely restricting the employment oppurtunities of this supposedly all powerful Urdu Speaking Elite without so much as a peep than what was to stop him from making the official language Sindhi or Punjabi? The language riots of 1972 have been the only occasion where any kind of clash was seen over language and these subsided quickly. Sindhi is now taught in all public schools in Karachi up till class 9. Urdu is also not the lingua franca outside the major urban centers. The MQM has also repeatedly stated that Urdu as a Naional Language is Punjab's choice and that they would not protest atll if regional languages were to be given more prominence.
This brings me to your second point that Urdu Speakers have always been diametrically opposed to provincial autonomy. To begin with the One Unit Scheme was implemented by a military man from Hazara. Secondly, maybe you should read MQM's manifesto which stresses heavily on provincial autonomy and even goes as far as to state that eventually Defence, economy and telecommunications should be the the only subjects under the control of the center.
As far as support for the Army goes, yes Musharraf was liked and supported by the "Urdu Speaking" community mostly due to the infrastructure development projects carried out in Karachi (for the first time in many decades). Despite this many of Musharaff's fiercest critics have been Urdu Speaking. All communities in Pakistan have been guilty of supporting one dictator or another at various times. The predecessor to the May 12th incident was when armed pathan gunmen supporting Ayub Khan opened fire on mostly Urdu speaking supporters of Fatima Jinnah.
Your lack of knowledge and ignorance is surprising for someone who likes to throw around a lot of pretentious meaningless words. Your assertion that Urdu has been imposed on what remains of Pakistan is laughable. Urdu was imposed on the Bengali's with the active consent and participation of the Punjabi/West Pakistani political elite as well as the evil matarua's. Since the separation, no Urdu speaker has held any kind of prominent position in any setup until the outgoing thugs. If populists like ZAB (I suppose he is a hero of yours) could steal entire industries in broad daylight as well as severely restricting the employment oppurtunities of this supposedly all powerful Urdu Speaking Elite without so much as a peep than what was to stop him from making the official language Sindhi or Punjabi? The language riots of 1972 have been the only occasion where any kind of clash was seen over language and these subsided quickly. Sindhi is now taught in all public schools in Karachi up till class 9. Urdu is also not the lingua franca outside the major urban centers. The MQM has also repeatedly stated that Urdu as a Naional Language is Punjab's choice and that they would not protest atll if regional languages were to be given more prominence.
This brings me to your second point that Urdu Speakers have always been diametrically opposed to provincial autonomy. To begin with the One Unit Scheme was implemented by a military man from Hazara. Secondly, maybe you should read MQM's manifesto which stresses heavily on provincial autonomy and even goes as far as to state that eventually Defence, economy and telecommunications should be the the only subjects under the control of the center.
As far as support for the Army goes, yes Musharraf was liked and supported by the "Urdu Speaking" community mostly due to the infrastructure development projects carried out in Karachi (for the first time in many decades). Despite this many of Musharaff's fiercest critics have been Urdu Speaking. All communities in Pakistan have been guilty of supporting one dictator or another at various times. The predecessor to the May 12th incident was when armed pathan gunmen supporting Ayub Khan opened fire on mostly Urdu speaking supporters of Fatima Jinnah.
#27 Posted by Ranjit on February 21, 2008 11:06:55 am
Ahmed sahib,
My basic point is that nationalism is a very human urge given our inherent attachment to our land, culture, language and religion. At the same time, in any diverse society there have to be limits to this urge or else you have balkanization accompanied by gory violence. For instance recently we have seen an offshoot of Shiv Sena in Bombay organizing a virulent campaign to expel north indians from bombay in the name of preserving marathi culture. Already two people have died. Unless the government and society at large curbs such tendencies, you will have mass scale slaughter given the extreme diversity in the subcontinent, whether it is in india or pakistan.
Therefore, every heterogeneous society tries to come up with some attributes that can unite disparate people even as they are given room to express their nationalism. Its a fine balancing act. India has done that to a large extent by avoiding a state religion, giving equal status to all languages, having smaller states and eliminating feudalism. In addition, the economic incentive is there to stay together.
Pakistan has adopted islam as that natural glue but it has not worked out that well. Now you need some other glue to substitute for it or rather augment the islamic glue. It could be economic interests, equal opportunity, equality of languages, state rights etc. If you do not have any such glue, your country will be ruined as you already saw happening in 1971.
My basic point is that nationalism is a very human urge given our inherent attachment to our land, culture, language and religion. At the same time, in any diverse society there have to be limits to this urge or else you have balkanization accompanied by gory violence. For instance recently we have seen an offshoot of Shiv Sena in Bombay organizing a virulent campaign to expel north indians from bombay in the name of preserving marathi culture. Already two people have died. Unless the government and society at large curbs such tendencies, you will have mass scale slaughter given the extreme diversity in the subcontinent, whether it is in india or pakistan.
Therefore, every heterogeneous society tries to come up with some attributes that can unite disparate people even as they are given room to express their nationalism. Its a fine balancing act. India has done that to a large extent by avoiding a state religion, giving equal status to all languages, having smaller states and eliminating feudalism. In addition, the economic incentive is there to stay together.
Pakistan has adopted islam as that natural glue but it has not worked out that well. Now you need some other glue to substitute for it or rather augment the islamic glue. It could be economic interests, equal opportunity, equality of languages, state rights etc. If you do not have any such glue, your country will be ruined as you already saw happening in 1971.
#28 Posted by haji004 on February 21, 2008 11:48:43 am
Ranjit...This automatic acceptance of multiculturalism and heterogeneity is incomprehensible...why should people from other regions be able to and be allowed to move into other regions? What is the morality and logic behind this automatic acceptance? Why should the borders (natural frontiers) of a region not be open only to
Students
Tourists
Merchants/Traders...
Why are you for this occupation by settlement/immigration doctrine?
Similarly why do north Indians want to live in Mumbai? for a good future, to take advantage of the economic oppurtunity...well this oppurtunity is a regional resource...why not try to do the same thing in one's region? why the support for this parasitic socialist egalitarian theory?
Finally, although people at this forum have tried hard to be apologists of Musharraf regime and urdu-speakers' unconditional and uniform support for MQM and hence for Army, the award would certainly go to one Mr. Siddiqui who said on TV the other day...
"The country is in need of a president who has experience of dealing with Army and Politicians at the same time, someone who could become a bridge between army and politicians and I think President Musharraf fits the definition to the word..."
I somebody in the studios vomited after hearing this statement...it wasn't reported...
Ahmad Hayat
Students
Tourists
Merchants/Traders...
Why are you for this occupation by settlement/immigration doctrine?
Similarly why do north Indians want to live in Mumbai? for a good future, to take advantage of the economic oppurtunity...well this oppurtunity is a regional resource...why not try to do the same thing in one's region? why the support for this parasitic socialist egalitarian theory?
Finally, although people at this forum have tried hard to be apologists of Musharraf regime and urdu-speakers' unconditional and uniform support for MQM and hence for Army, the award would certainly go to one Mr. Siddiqui who said on TV the other day...
"The country is in need of a president who has experience of dealing with Army and Politicians at the same time, someone who could become a bridge between army and politicians and I think President Musharraf fits the definition to the word..."
I somebody in the studios vomited after hearing this statement...it wasn't reported...
Ahmad Hayat
#29 Posted by haji004 on February 22, 2008 3:19:04 am
As expected...US and UK want to keep Musharraf as president...Just as Mr. Siddiqui "The Analyst with the Urdu-Speaking Spin" had suggested...
Refer to these news briefs...
The Guardian
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/dont-sack-musharraf-us-an d-uk-warn-election-victors-784909.html
People's Daily Online
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90852/6359139.html
IBN
http ://www.ibnlive.com/news/us-uk-tell-pak-oppn-alliance-not-to-sack-musharraf/59577 -2.html?xml
I have already emphasized in my posts and my previous article as well that...
(i)Urdu-Speaking People represented by MQM (please don't go on saying that not all urdu-speakers vote for MQM, yes they do, look at the poll results...its like saying that not all jews are zionists...surely there are non-zionist jews like 1% of the total jewish populations...)
(ii)Pakistan Army
(iii)Religious Political Parties
are all mutually intertwined and supportive of each other because their interests converge.
The only party and political theory that contradicts them is Nationalism (the main reason of it being detested by the above-mentioned forces)...MQM speaking of anti-Feudal reforms...this is plain laughable...He married the daughter of a landlord to cement a political alliance with Feudals...and MQM was in coalition with PML-Q for five years that represents quasi-totality of Punjabi and a few Sindhi landlords...actions speak louder than words...
Surely with the overwhelming urud-speaking support for military (concretised by MQM wins in Provincial and National assemblies) Musharraf's tenure would be prolonged...I mean he would resign but after a year or two and not immediately as the opposition parties are demanding...MQM has provided the cushion necessary for Musharraf's survival...
Nationalism is just plain political death for these centripetal forces of Islam, Ethnicity Erasing Urdu-Speakers and Military...hence opposition with full force...
Like Mullahs...now MQM is also openly pro US...of course with full military backing...so much for democratic spirit...
Useless rhetoric on this forum has marred the spirit of intellectual discourse...
Saddening to see...
Ahmad Hayat
Refer to these news briefs...
The Guardian
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/dont-sack-musharraf-us-an d-uk-warn-election-victors-784909.html
People's Daily Online
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90852/6359139.html
IBN
http ://www.ibnlive.com/news/us-uk-tell-pak-oppn-alliance-not-to-sack-musharraf/59577 -2.html?xml
I have already emphasized in my posts and my previous article as well that...
(i)Urdu-Speaking People represented by MQM (please don't go on saying that not all urdu-speakers vote for MQM, yes they do, look at the poll results...its like saying that not all jews are zionists...surely there are non-zionist jews like 1% of the total jewish populations...)
(ii)Pakistan Army
(iii)Religious Political Parties
are all mutually intertwined and supportive of each other because their interests converge.
The only party and political theory that contradicts them is Nationalism (the main reason of it being detested by the above-mentioned forces)...MQM speaking of anti-Feudal reforms...this is plain laughable...He married the daughter of a landlord to cement a political alliance with Feudals...and MQM was in coalition with PML-Q for five years that represents quasi-totality of Punjabi and a few Sindhi landlords...actions speak louder than words...
Surely with the overwhelming urud-speaking support for military (concretised by MQM wins in Provincial and National assemblies) Musharraf's tenure would be prolonged...I mean he would resign but after a year or two and not immediately as the opposition parties are demanding...MQM has provided the cushion necessary for Musharraf's survival...
Nationalism is just plain political death for these centripetal forces of Islam, Ethnicity Erasing Urdu-Speakers and Military...hence opposition with full force...
Like Mullahs...now MQM is also openly pro US...of course with full military backing...so much for democratic spirit...
Useless rhetoric on this forum has marred the spirit of intellectual discourse...
Saddening to see...
Ahmad Hayat
#30 Posted by Eklavya on February 22, 2008 4:13:36 am
ahmad hayat,
Where you stand, the ONLY people who can coooperate with you, and work with you, without trying to destroy both you and all that you stand for, are non-Pakistanis, in fact, only non-Muslims.
Why are you so virulently anti-American? Sorry, I probably missed something you said earlier. So, can you please explain your view of the US? Is it something like the French view?
Where you stand, the ONLY people who can coooperate with you, and work with you, without trying to destroy both you and all that you stand for, are non-Pakistanis, in fact, only non-Muslims.
Why are you so virulently anti-American? Sorry, I probably missed something you said earlier. So, can you please explain your view of the US? Is it something like the French view?
#31 Posted by Eklavya on February 22, 2008 4:25:51 am
In general, arguments like 'not all so and so are such and such' are always true. Not all men are men. Not all women are women. Not all nights are dark. Not all days are bright.
Many ideologies and political views survive on the strength of such statements.
Many ideologies and political views survive on the strength of such statements.
#32 Posted by CheGuevara on February 22, 2008 5:23:25 am
"He married the daughter of a landlord to cement a political alliance with Feudals"
LOL , the Gabol guy is a Punjabi businessman based in karachi. Once again you make baseless allegations without providing any kind of evidence or using any historical examples. I'd be surprised if you have any kind of knowledge relevant this issue. I have proven all your hate filled rubbish to be a figment of your imagination in my previous post but I don't expect a reply.
LOL , the Gabol guy is a Punjabi businessman based in karachi. Once again you make baseless allegations without providing any kind of evidence or using any historical examples. I'd be surprised if you have any kind of knowledge relevant this issue. I have proven all your hate filled rubbish to be a figment of your imagination in my previous post but I don't expect a reply.
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