Voting For Change

SR: While no doubt the maulvis would ban YouTube without a second thought, dont blame the maulvis for this. It is this lawless dictatorship that is still in control, not maulvis and certainly not the legitimate Government of Pakistan (i.e. the one being formed as a result of the elections).

Re: # 481

"Defend him successfully"

Poor Masadi is a dreamer I give you that. As Majumdar has pointed out, Masadi has not been able to prove even a single point of his claims.

People of pakistan have voted for change. The following are the questions for PHd candidates at the most prestigious pak university, quoted by Pervez.

Will those questions change with the govt. No they will not, they are the core TNT questions.

Quote:
This point is well illustrated by successive meetings in 1987 and 1988 of the selection board of Quaid-e-Azam University, which is considered to be Pakistan's premier university. The candidates... ...were confronted with questions like this:

* What are the names of the Holy Prophet's wives?
* Recite the prayer Dua-e-Qunoot.
* When was the Pakistan Resolution adopted?
* What is the difference between different azan's?
* What does your [the candidate's] name mean?
* Give the various names of God.

Finally the democrazy is back in pakistan. Nawaz has only one agenda, to get rid of mushy. He is a hard core jihadi, wanted to introduce sharia laws, mopre severe than that of zia, and he has declared that he will not listen to the yanks.

Then there is zardari, all that he wants is to keep his billions in swiss banks.

Then there is mushy, he wants to rule for ever.

Take it from me poor pakistanis, nothing will change for you. The power cuts will increase, the great citi bank economist during his eight year rule did not add a single megawatt of power. What do you expect for the politicians.

The military has quitt the jihadis to their own devices. The predators are going to rule waziristan.

Kiyani is happy, sitting in the army HQ and smoking his benson and hedges.

More will be killed in karachi by the mobile phone robbers, and that summarises the pak law and order situation and pak economy. In india no one cares to pick up a dropped phone, it is so cheap. Children are throwing mobile phones at stray dogs in india.

majumdar writes "Why did he not do so? Any answers."

Man, why are you being dishonest now. I have already answered this for you. The West and East had a great political divide, the military feudal nexus was concentrated in the West therefore ZAB's victory was the greater of the two victories. The vested powers would never have let the East rule the West, thereore the ZAB's formula "Idhar hum udhar tum" was the best one to keep the country intact and to enfranchise the people's mandate. They pick that statement and slap him with it, I say that was the best most realistic statement possible given the country's political structure and the vested powers....

Re: # 477
That was well said.....
Wesay bhee I do not understand about this non sense of NS or BB or AZ versus Musharraf...
It is the self sustainable system with adequate checks and balances which is important....
I think there was a very good article by an Indian author and i am pasting it below. This will set all the detractors of democracy right....



Junta versus Janata by Shekhar Gupta, The Indian Express
Published on January 21, 2008

The Indian politician bumbles, the Pakistani general strides purposefully in his natty suits. Guess who keeps his country stable. Pakistanis surely coin more colourful political slogan than us. They are also less subtle. So, the next time you see visuals of a PPP protest rally on your TV screens following Benazir¡¦s assassination, strain your ears a bit to catch a most telling slogan: Amreeka ne kutta paala, vardi waala, vardi waala. It would lose much flavour in transliteration, but the meaning would not be lost on even a non-Hindi speaker. Now when was the last time you had the army called a dog, and that too an American poodle, on Pakistan¡¦s streets? And this is a Pakistan under an almighty (lately, former) general who has the power to declare and suspend emergency in televised speeches, the power to make 36 (or thereabouts) amendments in his ¡§constitution¡¨ at a press conference, and whose ability to take the biggest decisions on the spot is the envy, often, of the Indian politician, and has been a cause for admiration among India¡¦s chattering classes.
How many times, since he came on his first visit for the Agra summit, have we heard fellow Indians, including serious, knowledgeable people, talk of him with a sense of awe? See, how confident he looks, how well he speaks, the swagger, so impressive, knows his mind, is so fit and energetic, so much in control, so macho, can-do and so on. The sub-text was, view this is total contrast with our own political class: overweight, badly dressed, clumsy, evasive in their answers, indecisive, inarticulate and, horror of horrors, not even able to speak any English.

And then came Shaukat Aziz, on secondment from Citibank. So smart, articulate, in his smartly cut suits, blah, blah and blah. And what kind of people did we have holding the same job in India? Gowda, who slept in Parliament. Vajpayee, who never seems to answer any question. Gujral who only uttered diplomatic platitudes that meant nothing. And Narasimha Rao, who mostly pretended he had not even heard the question.

Now let me tell you a few stories. Not necessarily connected either by timing or context, but yielding an interesting conclusion, nevertheless.

¡E One of the great untold stories of the Agra summit is how challenging it was for both Vajpayee and Musharraf to deal with each other. One thought he had the answer even before a question had been asked. The other would think for ever, and often tire out his interlocutor. Apparently at one of the mid-day review sessions Musharraf shared his exasperation with his aides. He said something like, I know you guys told me he takes time responding to anything, but how do I deal with somebody who takes so long and then says nothing? A bit like John McEnroe tossing his racket in exasperation while playing Ramesh Krishnan and screaming: how do I play this guy? He serves at five miles per hour!

One of his aides tried to suggest that Vajpayee takes so long because he is processing Musharraf¡¦s question in his wise, old head. Musharraf was still irritated and somebody senior in his inner council said, with humour laced with disdain: to unka processor Pentium nahin, 286 hoga (then his processor must be a 286, not a Pentium).

¡E Now listen to the story from the other end. What exasperated Vajpayee most of all was Musharraf¡¦s cocky ¡§decisiveness¡¨. ¡§You are the prime minister, I am the president, if we agree on something, let¡¦s sign,¡¨ he would say, while at the same time making changes on the draft of a likely agreement and asking Vajpayee to okay it. He simply wouldn¡¦t buy Vajpayee¡¦s argument that he had a cabinet to go back to. ¡§Par aap prime minister hain. Aap faisla keejiye (but you are the prime minister, you decide),¡¨ Musharraf would say. So when Vajpayee briefed his aides and fellow members of the Cabinet Committee on Security (who, barring George Fernandes, were in Agra), he said about his counterpart pretty much the opposite of what he said of him: ¡§He is in such a hurry. Kuchch sochne ko taiyyar nahin hain. Sub kuch faisala abhi chahte hain, kaise samjhaoon bhai.¡¨ Or words to that effect.

¡E In the main lounge of the Congress Centre at Davos, Switzerland, where all kinds from heads of state to global corporate leaders to rock stars to ordinary journalists congregate and rub shoulders during the World Economic Forum January meeting, I found my old friend, Pakistani journalist, part-time politician, now a full-time exile, Boston University professor and also an Indian Express columnist, Husain Haqqani. As we exchanged gossip, Shaukat Aziz walked past, accompanied by a couple of minders, perfectly cut suit, pompous, smug smile and all. Just that morning he had lectured many of us senior editors over breakfast, laying down the law for India: nothing would move, the gas pipeline, even the permission to Indian private airlines to fly to Pakistan unless the ¡§core¡¨ issue was addressed. Again there was some admiration for his confidence and clarity even among the Indian contingent as he was ¡§so unlike our bumbling politicians¡¨.

Haqqani¡¦s eyes were now lit up with mischief. He pointed his finger directly at Aziz and said: ¡§You know what they say, Davos is the Disneyland of the mind. If that be so, there goes its Mickey Mouse.¡¨

How have the relative fortunes of the two competing kinds of leaderships and nations under their charge evolved over these seven years? Musharraf now looks bumbling and unconvincing, an international joke, a pitiable, forlorn figure, hated by his countrymen, distrusted by the world and mentioned dismissively even by Barack Obama. Shaukat Aziz has disappeared from the scene, even losing out to an ordinary mortal ¡X coincidentally from India ¡X for the top job in his alma mater, Citi. Their country is a mess, their own army, for the first time, is seeing its credibility, power, its pre-eminent position in Pakistan¡¦s society and power structure questioned. Its political class is decimated, its institutions fatally wounded. How do people as proud as the Pakistanis feel when their dictator offers to salvage his credibility by summoning the Scotland Yard to investigate the assassination of their most prominent political leader? Nobody believes their election commission¡¦s intentions, motives or judgment in postponing their election.

Vajpayee, on the other hand, sits at home, having lost power in an election, not in the pink of health, but satisfied at the way his country is moving. His successor, from the opposite side of the political fence, even comes to wish him on his birthday. His country has meanwhile had many more state elections and another general election within a year or so will give his successors in his own party another crack at power. Now, think, who finally won. The indecisive, inarticulate, ineffective slob who did not seem to have an answer to anything, or the macho, confident, smart, decisive, modern smartie who seemed to have an answer to everything?

There are many interesting, and important conclusions to be drawn from this complex argument. But the most significant is this: a modern nation needs democracy and so it needs its politicians, however clumsy, corrupt, effete and power-crazed they may be. Because a military dictator can also be all of these things. The difference is, the political leader draws his power from the democratic process, so he has a stake in preserving that system, howsoever cynical he may be. The general draws his power by throttling the democratic system and its institutions and you can see the results of that in Pakistan. So, in a democracy, howsoever powerful a Lalu or Mayawati, they have to shut up and listen when the Supreme Court speaks. The election commission can publicly upbraid both Sonia Gandhi and Narendra Modi. We, the media, can question and curse who we want. It happens because the political class has the biggest stake in the democratic process, howsoever much it may wish to manipulate it. In contrast, a military dictator owes his power to the absence of institutions, of checks and balances. That is exactly what Musharraf has done to his judiciary, the election commission and even the media. That is why he has to summon the Scotland Yard to investigate Benazir¡¦s assassination.

A Request to ALL chowk readers living outside Pakistan

My ISP has notified me that Pakistan government has banned YouTube from Pakistan because of "objectionable material" on it. This objectionable material is not of the political variety. It is religious.

This is just as criminal (if not more) than banning Geo and ARY...

Where are all the champions of "freedom of press" now? Are Pakistani people going to have a double standard and endorse THIS ban after having shead crocodile tears at the banning of Geo and ARY???

I am interested in watching that so-called blasphemous objectionable material and make up my own mind as to whether it is indeed objectionable or not.

So if anyone can record that/those video(s) and send it to me as an email attachment I'd be most grateful.

My email address is INABBAR at google mail...

...SR

PS: Please forgive this rude intrusion in your political discussion.

ajeya: merapakistan is technically correct. A Muslim man can marry a non-muslim woman without her converting to islam as long as the contract (nikah) stipulates that the children would be raised as muslims. However, most muslim men do persuade their wives to convert.

I do not know about the case of Obama's mother. You should also know that a muslim man (or woman) can marry a non-muslim in a civil ceremony without any conversion; this is frequently happening in India in cases of hindu-muslim marriages.

Masadi sahib,

You are right the buck stops with Yahya. But is there any evidence to suggest that ZAB tried to bring a rapprochement between the two wings. He cud have publicly declared that Mujib be allowed to become PM. In that case the Pak Army wud have found it very difficult to order the crackdown. Why did he not do so? Any answers.

(There was nothing stupid in sitting out )

IK did a very wise thing. Had he contested he wud have got one seat (that is the one seat he was contesting) and would have been the laughing stock of the whole of Pakistan. And with Mushy's mortal enemy PNS winning about 70 seats he cud not even claim vote rigging as an excuse.

Regards

Majumdar, you're a fake, merely repeating what has been answered does not make it true. The army DID NOT dance to the tunes of ZAB, ZAB had to find his niche to operate within army rule just as politicians do today, the only difference was he altered the general discourse to make the people of this country part of the equation where they never were before and the "niche" became much wider due to that and the cirumstances that made the military weaker post creation of Bangladesh. If you don't understand these simple things about the Pakistan political structure, then you're not only a fake, you're an ignoramus who should keep out of any and every discussion about Pakistani politics

Gold finger writes "maybe even someone like Imran Khan (who stupidly sat out the elections). "

There was nothing stupid in sitting out the elections even though he probably did it because he wants out of politics, the students roughing him up was the most he could take. To take part in the elections was to legitimize what led up to the elections and that was anti-democracy to the core. To take part in them was to legitimize the Musharraf BS about his three stage nonsense where the army remains firmly in charge. Elections have not brought "democracy" to this country and will not unless a charismatic leader of the calibre of ZAB emerges who can move the masses against the military.

Those who stumbled over each other trying to outdo each other in taking part in this election either did not know or did not care that what they were doing was anti people to the core, they are just playing the US game of strengthing the leeches of the Pakistan Army.

Masadi sahib,

Re: #481

You can attack MAJ (pbuh) and the head priest of his church you have still not been able to justify his:

Shameful role in the breakup of Pakistan.
The mass bombing of Pushtoons and Baloch in the 1970s- a forerunner of todays attacks on FATA tribals.
Terrorisation of political opponents.
Excommmunication of Ahmedis.
the fact that ZAB did little for the poor apart from the natioanlisation of industries, which if at all had a postive impact was on the labour aristocracy not on the general populace.

And regarding I can only you that he is a universal hero of all Pakis while ZAB also enjoys some popularity, it is not on the same scale as MAJ. And incidentally although Indian Hindoos may hate him for breaking up the country, large number of people very much admire his personality.

Regards

Sage (of the sewers) Hamid, thanks for your advice but as usual it was way off....assessing sickness of the mind does not befit one with a diseased mind like yours....you are beyond help at this stage.

Manto writes ".. in putting pressure on the very ductile opportunist that Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was..."

The only reason why this idiot attacks ZAB is because I was able to defend him quite successfully against his ad hominem BS, so much that the High Priest of the Church of MAJ escaped with his tail between his legs. And then the person whose sum total of arguments are based on tales and stories about personality flaws claims to "understand the complexity of the world" as against his opponents. Little difference between this fool and tahmed whose views change with the views of the US administration, when they were pro dictator he was pro Musharraf when they wanted his wardi off he became anti Musharraf and now when they want him to stay (on the face of it) he is again supporting that sob...some people are spineless and immoral and these two are the leaders of the pack on chowk...

female doghood to continue...

Pressure on Asif, Nawaz to work with president

By Raja Asghar

ISLAMABAD, Feb 22: Western envoys in Islamabad continued on Friday what seemed to be hectic contacts with the leaders of parties that won last Monday’s elections amid mounting worries about President Pervez Musharraf’s political future.

The president has come under renewed pressures after the elections threw up all opponents of his iron-fisted rule for more than eight years and crushed the main party of his loyalists.

The meetings, mainly of American and British ambassadors with the leaders of the Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) and Pakistan Muslim League-N (PML-N), have led to speculations about possible counsels to the makers of the future government to try to co-exist with Musharraf despite years of their mutual hostility.

No details have been available of the talks, except that matters about transition to democracy and counter-terrorism were among subjects discussed, indicating the West’s concerns about the future of Pakistan’s key role in the so-called war on terrorism of which the president is the architect.

US ambassador Anne W. Paterson on Friday had a second contact with PPP co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari within a few days, though this time accompanied by a Congressional delegation that earlier met President Musharraf.

British High Commissioner Robert Brinkley held a second meeting with Mr Sharif, only a day after the PML-N leader reiterated his hard line against the man who toppled him as prime minister in the Oct 12, 1999 coup, by telling a news conference that “sooner he (president) left the better”.

Washington’s known preference for a power-sharing between Musharraf and the PPP had led to the return of PPP leader Benazir Bhutto to Pakistan after about nine years of self-imposed foreign exile.

All this rhetoric does not make any difference to idolators if the actual Jehadi mullahs, who appear to have gained a lot in these elections, are not disbanded by Pakistan.

Whether NS comes or AZ comes makes no difference if Jehad against hindu idolators continues to be high on the Pakistani state's ideological agenda.

Let us watch and see. Because I think the "jazba-e-jehad" is going to be higher now that action against hte mullahs is going to subside.