Voting For Change

Re: # 12

NHK Sahib:

Who will administer the oath to the legislators?

If elected members take the oath from President Musharraff, you have legitimized his election. My interpretation is that it will make it impossible for impeachmeant proceedings.

If elected members want CJ to administer the oath, which is not normal in Parliamentary democracies, then they legitimize the act of the President whom they would want to impeach to appoint CJP.

I can see a consitutional crisis even before parliament sits for a session, if Musharraff must be impeached.

Best would be for him to resign and accept people's verdict, if their elected representatives (legislators) do not want him.

Dawn News is reporting that in a meeting on Tuesday, advisors of Musharraf told Asif Zardari not to approach the PML-N for the formation of a governing coalition at the center. They suggested, instead, approaching MQM, ANP and PML-Q. They also suggested the name of Makhdoom Amin Fahim for the PM slot.

The meeting is being confirmed by the govt. sources, while being vehemently denied by the PPPP spokesperson FarhatUllah Babar.

The thick skin of the President and his advisors/sycophants continues to amaze in no small measure. Then again, this may just be a calculated disinformation ploy by the establishment to fan suspicions between the political parties.

The people of Pakistan have given their verdict in favour of a democratic, non authoritarian, plural, progressive and non fundamentalist Pakistan.

However, the hung nature of seats leaves a very big place for manipulation by the President and Agencies. It all depends on how sincere Zardari is to his dead wife and ideology of his party. If he has his own agenda, then Pakistan must brace for the worst type of wheeling dealing.

Yesterday, I met a very close aide of the President and told him that the President stands to gain if he sticks to the verdict of the people. If he does not, then tough times are ahead.He looked me in the eyes as if I was an ignorant.

This is a nightmare scenario and as I keep saying,
"all my love came to nothing at all"

Pakistan Zindabad!
Cheerios

Re: # 12
Further, what intrigues me most is PMLQ in Balochistan. How the hell could they manage this in a province where two leaders were killed?

anil #: ...the current election was held under the president, hence that part of the legitimization is already there......

......i think the parliament should take its oath under anyone.......after which, they should elect their own president, which is the right of every parliament.......my choice would be aitezaz (or imran khan, if you ask me).....this would equate to an impeachment of musharraf......

....they should then restore the judiciary.......which should then put musharraf and anyone else on trial, under Article 6......which carries the death penalty.....once everyone is declared guilty, then they should be asked to give an apology, and the penalty should be dropped by the legislature as an action of good will.......

.......the problem actually occurs due to the fact that an independent judiciary will go after the parliamentarians also......e.g. they can put zardari on trial for past corruption......and they would have to go after gen. kiani also, as he accepted the coas position even though the outgoing suprement court had passed an order, explicitly, ordering everyone in the govt. to disobey musharraf......

so the parliament will, first have to pass an nro of some sort....as a huge number of them are, basically, crooks......the reason nawaz is pushing for the judges is that he is the only one who has already been punished years ago.....his punishment being confisication of his property and exile.......

the court could declare zardari guilty and then forfeit the punishment as time spent........since he was jailed for 7 years real-time (counted to 11 in jail time), without a conviction......hence he has already spent his time in jail.....and he is not a candidate for NA, hence the decision would not affect him.......

trust me, no one who is powerful in pakistan, wants a pro-active independent judiciary......and the one that was replaced was about as independent as they come......

Romair,

(my choice would be aitezaz or imran khan, if you ask me)

IK shud have no place, he sat out the elections and he shud cool his heels for the next 5 years. He is a useless fellow anyway and his party cant win more than a couple of seats.

(and the penalty should be dropped by the legislature as an action of good will.......)

Better option wud be a pardon by the next Prez who commutes his death penalty for life imprisonment. Mush shud not be allowed to go unpunished.

Regards

New regime in pakistan should not send Mushy out of the country…. Having a few ex- presidents around is good for the democracy

majumdar #: "he sat out the elections..."

aitezaz sat out the elections also........both him and imran gave up sure-shot seats......this is exactly the criteria, in my mind, for someone who should be president......i.e. someone whose interests are other than power......president should be a relatively apolitical position, given to someone who has a great deal of credibility in pakistan.......

"Mush shud not be allowed to go unpunished...."

yes....but, at some point, the cycle of punishments for each outgoing head, needs to end......he was, after all, given a clean chit, by some of the same judges, when he carried out the coup.....ppp was ready to work with him, when he kicked out ns......most pakistanis supported him on that.......i supported him for three years against bb, nawaz and maulvis......etc......

he should be court martialled, and his rank should be taken away.......trust me, this will be worst than jail time to him......he will have no place in society.......if we follow, purely, legal rules, then the whole general staff of army, navy and air force are to be fired, as they violated the supreme courts ruling......

ijaz_gul#19:

This is what I said in response at the other board:

"I fully agree, and this is what I meant when I told zeemax that horse-trading could still take place. I don't know if it was you or someone else who said this but I think that the possibility of a ppp, pml(q) and mqm could form a coalition still exists. Do you think that zardari and musharraf can make a compromise after musharraf called him "scum" in his interview with zemima?"

These are early days and the games have just begun; we are in the first day of the first innings and the spinners haven't started bowling yet.

If pml(n) is kept out of power, it might suit nawaz sharif fine. He can continue his opposition to the WOT and retain his popularity, a luxury he may not be able to afford if he comes to power. It may suit Pak democracy better too. If the govt. makes a mess (as it is likely to), people can turn to Nawaz; if he is part of the govt. what is the alternative to army?

Aitzaaz sat out the election, his party didn't. Fair point about Mushy being publicly disgraced but left free.

Regards

Agreed.
I still have doubts about where Zardari belongs. He is the best friend of present Interior Minister Sind. He also had the luxuray of best damsels like Noor when in prison. add up and you will know.

Yes, it suits NS to sit out and play waiting.

Dost-Mittar #: .......nawaz has played the best innings.....it was obvious even before the elections......

ppp actually did not gain any votes in this elections.....one can make an argument that it may have lost votes.......

.....in the last election, despite musharraf's total control of pakistan and relative popularity, and rigging, and the fact that ppp was discredited and bb was out of pakistan, and maulvis were rising......ppp still won 80 seats......

.....in this election, all the winds were blowing in ppp's favor, with the addition of a sympathy vote......in such a situtation, it should have swept.......however it received 87 seats......only 7 more that last time!!

......so i would say, considering the circumstance, ppp lost seats.......the reason is four-fold.....it did not take a clear stance on judiciary.....it hobnobbed with musharraf......it supported lal masjid action.......it supported us bombings in waziristan......

nawaz is well set now......he is the political voice of the public, at the moment.......and he is on the right side of everyone, other than musharraf.......

.......ppp and pml-n should form a coalition to remove musharraf and restore the judges and adjust the constitution........after that, they can go their own way.....

a couple of things you may want to keep in mind.......musharraf has greatly harmed and humiliated, at an individual level, many of the ppp and pml-n leaders......javed hashmi was locked in a room in jail for a long time......his daughter was humiliated by police, when she came to meet him......gilani was locked in a dirty cell with a hammock for 3 months and humiliated by ordinary policemen for four years.......ns was kicked out.....zardari was in jail for 7 years (albeit in a hospital).....naveed qamar was locked up......

all this was done by nab and none of them were convicted (other than nawaz).......

there are many more examples......i met a lot of pakistani politicians on a trip last time.......i was surprised to see how many had been physically beaten up by the army.....khwaja saad, a sitting pml-n mna from lahore, was physically beaten up......others as well........

trust me, these guys must hate musharraf with a passion.....i am surprised they can keep their cool, when talking about him.......i cannot imagine they would not want revenge......ns is out to get it.......as for ppp, bb could have controlled them........but not zardari.......

all this is fine. I am really heartened to see some form of a public expression of their preferences take place. And the day went off uneventfully.

I have to sound a note of caution here.

All these nice sounding editorials articles etc are coming from the elite of the plains (poonjabi and sindhi and muj_haris). Take a minute from this distraction and see the real outcome, and spread of votes.


from what hamidm2 sayeth yesterday: overall 40% of the population voted.

65% in urban areas Lahore and Karanchi.
12% is NWFP and Baluchistan.

Come on people do you seriously think the jihadis have been defeated. The buggers didnot even vote for chirst sakes. The votes won in these places by the ANP etc is what they would have got even if the whole damn population voted.

And as a result you cannot claim that the whole population of NWFP rejected mullahism...in fact ACROSS THE COUNTRY THSI IS NOT THE CASE - with an average of 40% voting you cannot make that claim.

IF you recall the refrain from the zeemax and urstruly brigade (aided and abetted by the MASADIs of this world) such democratic elections are haram and meaningless unless held under the sharia and in an iran like conditions.

I think chowk.com and others should not go overboard with euphoria - bad for the health.

Wait for a few days and see which will arrive first to give us all a big downer (for which weneed some serious "e" or booze to make us happy)

(a) the horsetrading - which will result in a cadidate no one likes - result: democracy not working cry

(b) a few more bombs - lal masjid ki yaad mein zeemax and urstruly will be back saying I told yaah guys

(c) economy not climbing according to expectations - masadi back with I told ya bozos line

wait...donot jump up and down....

Oh BTW forget the joudges being reinstated. this was a line used to beat up on mushy the saviour of pakistan.

Re: # 21

Romair:

Interesting piece of Pakistani politics that you wrote. Althought your point regarding the election of President "...which is the right of every parliament...", is partly true. New parliament elects new speaker. It does not elect new president. Presidential election is voted in by electoral college, parliament, and state assemblies legislators take part in it. At least that is the way it is in India.

If I am not wrong, Musharraff signed slue of ordinances to legitimize his election. Under constitutional law, the ordinances must be converted into bill, I believe, in India ordinance expires after six months, and President can renew for another 90 day or so. After that an act of Parliament is required.

You may have a point about the oath, but then prospect of impeachment in Parliament goes out. His election probably can only challenged in the Judiciary. Presidential ordinances would expire though. Unless he got them converted in the previous rubber-stamp parliament. I would not be surprised if he did that.

Judiciary is probably only way to challenge his election.

Another point. Between PPP and PML-N, less than 20 seats are short to get 2/3 rd majority. If their leadership genuinely puts Pakistan's interest first, and develop a CMP (Common Minimum Program) with say ANP and a couple of independents, then their government would have a historic opportunity clear and truly rebuild a stronger democratic institutions.

This to me is the strongest mandate for democracy in recent times anywhere. Thru CMP, parties can run coalitions. India is run on CMP, and so is Israel.

I don't think Zardari would either go for reinstatement of judiciary or impeachment of musharraf. He'll need MQM support in forming Sindh Government - as well as the establishment's support to protect his dubious inheritance of PPP leadership against dissent and forming a forward bloc.

Neither does PPP have any economic programme to fix the current mess. The post-ZAB PPP has been relying on ambiguity to survive, and continues to do so. The 'Roti Kapra Makan slogan which Benazir used for the campaign will become the rope with which PPP will hang itself. After all, there're no more nationalised industries to stuff with job-seekers nor the fiscal space to run the (cosmetic) iodized salt distributions /immunizations /lady health visitors as a social-sector facade that Benazir used. Most importantly, PPP does not have a professional team to deliver results. Naveed Qamar is the best they have to offer whose mediocre ability is well known. On the other hand, PML (N)'s professional economic team (which remained loyal throughout i.e. Sartaj Aziz, Ishaq Dar, Pervez Rashid) has proven track record in the previous incomplete terms.

Nawaz Sharif would do well to sit in the opposition and stick to his complete reform agenda till energy prices are raised (long overdue), inflation hits the roof, and the public which went out to vote for PPP at risk of life and limb demand relief.

That will be his time.

Re: # 31

at that point what do you think Nawaz Sharif should do and would do and could do?

Here are some options: (not exhaustive)

(a)Lead morchas and create chaos
(b)defeat PPP in a NCV in parliament
(c)ask army to take over