The ANP Challenge

Majumdar babu,

JLN and Gandhi were busy dowsing the flames raked up by Jinnah. They are too big-hearted to make street-level comments that YLH is trying to make.

We have the whole media - India as well as foreign plus the administration - to the violence mooted & perpetrated by AIML. Period.

I guess YLH has a valid point. We do not need to insist on conviction as proof of guilt. But at least we shud have some credible sources from Indian side (MKG/JLN etc) who accused MAJ (pbuh) of inciting violence against Hindoos.

Regards

Re: # 618

My dear friend,

I have been completely honest. I have not been given the same courtesy. Instead of attacking the messenger, please feel free to come up with a plausible counter-argument.

Harish bhai,

I did not speak of "conviction". It was Vengatraman who brought it up.

Let me repeat:

"No court in the world can convict anybody going by your standards"

So surely you must have conviction after conviction and judicia orders against Jinnah then? right? Wrong. There isn't even a single case, single court of law, single judge whether Hindu, Muslim, Parsi or British ... who indicted Jinnah for violence.

Forget courts (because a fair court anywhere in the world would not even entertain ... could you even produce a single statement from Gandhi, Nehru or Patel or any other Congress leader accusing Jinnah of violence? How about Bacha Khan himself? Did Bacha Khan accuse Jinnah of causing violence all during this time. Surely these upright men .... much more upright than yourself or Sallu mian here would have accused him of violence.

Now ... Hamood-ur-rahman commission report accuses Army of violence. Is there any lawyer judge or a commission that bamed Jinnah? You tell me ... do you really think Jinnah intended for violence to happen?

#616 by MantoLives

Yaar Yasser, if conviction is the yardstick by which you can judge guilt, you're down a slippery slope. How many armymen were convicted for the 1971 genocide in Bangladesh? Tikka Khan (aka the Butcher of Bangladesh) actually went on to become the Governor (or some such thing) of Balochistan. Nor has Bush been convicted for the deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, and biggest example which you guys never tire of pointing out, Modi actually won a landslide victory in the Gujarat elections after the 2002 riots.

No amount of trickery is going to take away the sins of Jinnah whose party engineered violence in all parts of India in the run up to the formation of Pakistan.

Even during the NWFP referendum, the AIML goons, with the active connivance of Jinnah, made statements of killing those ppl who oppose them.

Yasser,

That way u r positioning urself as Galileo. Lol!

Re: # 611

No I am comparing you to the Church.

"No court in the world can convict anybody going by your standards"

So surely you must have conviction after conviction and judicia orders against Jinnah then? right? Wrong. There isn't even a single case, single court of law, single judge whether Hindu, Muslim, Parsi or British ... who indicted Jinnah for violence.

Forget courts (because a fair court anywhere in the world would not even entertain ... could you even produce a single statement from Gandhi, Nehru or Patel or any other Congress leader accusing Jinnah of violence? How about Bacha Khan himself? Did Bacha Khan accuse Jinnah of causing violence all during this time. Surely these upright men .... much more upright than yourself or Sallu mian here would have accused him of violence.

This just proves my point.

Re: # 611

Yaar Sallu, you are not on the right track. Even these Indian friends know that you are talking nonsense.

I have responded to you completely honestly. It is about time you return the favor by being honest and upright.

Re: # 612

Dear Vengatraman,

Indians like you, VRV etc have been trying to pull the rug from under me for a very long time but unsuccessfully.

So let us do everyone a favor and refrain from these childish attempts to skew the discussion. Propping up off base characters like Sallu will only dent your credibility not mine. I know honesty is probably too much to hope from someone like you but I will try.

The way you fellows change goalposts is amazing. Now that none of you have been able to produce a single statement or action on part of Jinnah "inciting violence", you have come up with this pathetic excuse:

"Real time action does not require the protoganists to make unambigously clear, like they do in the bollywood potboilers, on what they are trying to do."

So this then equally applies to Gandhi and Nehru. The horrendous violence caused by Hindus and Sikhs in Gurdaspur is then directly the fault of Gandhi and Nehru and the Congress Party. This is a logical extension of your logic.

Now let us review the facts here:

1. Salman has not been able to point out one single flaw with the claims I made about ANP in the article.

2. Salman was caught lying about Fakir of Ipi. It is also confirmed that Fakir of Ipi was indeed in touch with KK.

3. He then came up with Pir of Manki Sharif and said he wanted to kill Nehru. He still hasn't given us any evidence of this lie.

4. Unable to make his points or provide evidence for his claims, Sallu mian attacked me for being a "qadiani" and PPP wallah. This to me was the end of discussion really.

So no amount of propping up by VRV, yourself or every Indian on this website will help Sallu "pull the rug" from underneath my feet because I am standing on solid ground.

Now coming to violence ... the truth is that Jinnah abhorred violence and there was no way he would sanction violence against anyone. This was a fact admitted by everyone. No primary source evidence exists of the "Divide or destroy" statement exists. It is based in the fertile imagination of a journalist who was't even present though she claimed it later on.

I would have no problem admitting it if it were true but it isn't.

Corrigendum:


* Yakub Khan aka Marudha Nayagam

Maruthanayagam (Marudhanayagam) Pillai a.k.a Muhammad Yusuf Khan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Yusuf_Khan

Manto Bhai,

"Sallu needs all the help he can get from his Indian buddies because he is not going to win on facts"

I believe Sallu managed to pull the rug under your feet. Real time action does not require the protoganists to make unambigously clear, like they do in the bollywood potboilers, on what they are trying to do.

Its childish on our part to expect a veteran lawyer and an intellect like Jinnah to come out in open and roar like Gabbar and then follow with:

"Hey I am gonna murder you....haha....hahahahahaha....hahaha....turns and faces the camera and squints his eyes".

Please do not understimate Jinnah Sahib. I would be okay to hear from you that Jinnah was ready to divide or destroy for the sake of Muslim people's well-being. It is perfectly understandable to fight against enemies and we have so many glorified characters, Hindus as well as Muslims, in the history of combined India. For egs Yakub Khan aka Marudha Nayagam Pillai or Veerapandya Kattabomman. They used violence as a tool for emancipation.

No court in the world can convict anybody going by your standards.

Mantolives,

U compare urself to Galileo??????????

Salman bro,

U're on right track and dont bother abt the liar-e-azam.

Yes... I suppose just like the valiant Church exposed Gallileo and ruled that Sun sets in your arse?

On another note: Sallu needs all the help he can get from his Indian buddies because he is not going to win on facts.

Brother Salman,

Thanx for exposing Mantolives thoroughly. Good Job.

In re: Fakir of Ipi and the KK

Zakkk writes:

"while the Faqir of Ipi was not a KK activist they did have an understanding with each other"

And yet this simple fact caused Salman to first claim that Fakir of Ipi was a Muslim leaguer who wanted to kill Nehru. When called for his lie, he changed his story (which he has done a million times) to Pir of Manki Sharif- for which he has failed to provide evidence as with all else.

The "debate" here stems out of Salman's inability to accept certain criticisms and facts about Bacha Khan and his movement.

Zakkk then writes:

"I have no fondness for the politics of the ANP, and i agree it is in fact dominated by one family, as are most families in Pakistan, even non entities like Asghar Khans. It's politics have become parochial and limited to to 3 points renaming, kalabagh dam and autonomy so it's core appeal is limited even within the pashtun belt."

That is their right ... it is part of the montage of Pakistan. What is wrong is for them to claim things that are paetently untrue.


The Hayat Khan Sherpao murder story is not closed yet. I have merely deferred it till I have more information... because I have two very established sources (both impartial non-PPP non-ANP non-League)... one claiming that Bhutto did it and the other (Agha Amin i.e. Pavocavalry) claiming that NAP did it 100% at the orders from the top (Wali Khan) and that he has objective information.

As for not espousing violence ... I remember Wali Khan waxing eloquent on "Eik Din Geo kay Saath" on the issue of Kala Bagh dam in which he declared "I will kill your children" if you deny "our" rights by making the Kalabagh dam which would be tantamount to killing "our" children. This is Wali Khan. I rest my case. Please feel free to see the show yourself... it was recorded a few months before Wali Khan's death and was re-aired in the week after his death again.

For the record I don't believe he meant it literally though those are his exact words. And then these people like Salman go and try and stretch the meaning of "Action" to mean violence... Is there no shame left?