Pakistan, a Different Country!

Tahmed,
This is a difficult issue. There is a dearth of quality articles on Chowk and even some known plagiarists have been published here. As you mentioned the number of abusers on the site is increasing because they really have nothing to bring to the table except abuses.

Asadi for some strange reasons that I fail to fathom, does not realize that he can easily argue with sane people on the site w/o resorting to the language he uses. Maybe one more chance would help him mend his style! His article below is a quality analysis and discussing his assessment should be good for the site.

bj sahib: and while you are giving this matter some thought, also keep in mind that even if we were not talking fairly pedestrian nature of chowk discussions and articles, true scholars dont hide behind a shower of abuse when they are contradicted.

In fact, strong words are invariably a cover-up for weak arguments.

bj qibla: then help me understand the weakness:

1. Is it incorrect to say that chowk is basically idle time, not a think tank? if you disagree, kindly take the supposedly potential "article" in question that masadi proudly presents - and show me one thing there that a talkative barber or rickshaw driver or just some guys having tea and samosas in a khokha (dhaba i believe in india) would not be relating or predicting?


2. if you agree that chowk is basically a social group, not a scholarly forum or think tank, then what is the first rule of the social group if not the chowk guidelines i referred to?

Thanks for your consideration.

#134
Tauheed sahib, that thinking is inherently weak.

An article should be judged based on its content alone and never based on whether chowk editors "like" the writer or not!

That is no different from the Mushy banning specific publications.

HP #125 Chowk is basically idle time - a bunch of fellows shooting breeze on india, pakistan politics. It is not exactly a think tank which requires standards of scholarship that go way beyond chowk's minimum standard which essentially says "kindly refrain from abusing one another".

So, if someone fails to meet even chowk's basic standards, chowk staff can take away a nick, but cant kick them out (because even a moron knows that he can re-register under a different nick a la arjun the 16th). But chowk can effectively bar them from using chowk to publish articles.

So - please do not make chowk a worse cesspool than it already is by calling for abusive posters to be actually treated as respected chowk writers.

#131 8 chicks pouring liquor for you all night (what did you do with the other 64)

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they were dressing up the belt around his waist and then he came to his senses and ran away to the airport.:)))

(what did you do with the other 64)

On the side man, on the side...I have one reserved for your friend a-choot_5. He never had one!

HP, you had fun dude! I'm jealous... 8 chicks pouring liquor for you all night (what did you do with the other 64)

Re: # 124

Chowk staff,

In the interest of free speech please review your policy with regards to this moron and print his article.

We may not like this poor reason of a human being, but he does make some very interesting and valid points that need further introspection.

Masadi,

I agree with the title and basic gist of your article with some reservations.

(1) You give too much credit to gringo, they too have their fair share of idiots who cannot think beyond tomorrow.

(2) If people disagree with u that does not in any way mean or imply they support or condone US atrocities.

Re: # 107 Posted by hamidm2 on February 27, 2008 4:09:21 am

Hamid mian,

[Chowk Staff,

As we discussed earlier, please make sure you don't publish anything written by Masadi. I would also suggest that we should completely ban Masadi from this site.

Thank you for your cooperation.]

I second this motion, and agee with you on this one. This fool is nothing but a foul mouth and is bad for Pakistan's well being.

We should all get together and completely shut this interactor off on this site.

g'night

Hp "I hope asadi would try and defend his assertions by respecting all posters and commentators. "

Definitely to the extent that they respect me, and don't legitimize the butchering of the people of any nation by supporting US barbarism around the globe

In #124 end of article "For these reasons, the Americans might soon break from the past and try their hand at breaking up Pakistan with actual physical occupation of certain parts because dealing with their proxy occupation force (the Pakistan Army) gets tenuous with every Martial Law."

One thing I would like to add to the reasons behind "breaking up" Pakistan- though this was not the purpose of the article. The first reason I gave and that was the tenuous nature of dealing with the military leadership after they have been allowed to reign for a while, the second at this particular time happens to be the central status in the war on terror that Pakistan has come to occupy. The breaking up and physical occupation will serve two purposes, facilitate the strategic use of the location as well as add "masala" to the WOT by constructing a state entity hostile to this occupation (possibly with Nuclear weapons)- that will give added life to the now fizzling out WOT, which the US needs to do to continue its "war without end", to support its political economy ...

I just don't understand why chowk would not publish this article. I think the article provides a good basis for a robust discussion on some aspects of Asadi's pov.
I am in the middle of a few things right now but would comment on the article as soon as I get a chance.

In the meantime, I think chowk editors should make an exception and I hope asadi would try and defend his assertions by respecting all posters and commentators.

Alright but only because you request it:

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(Copy paste begins)

Legitimizing a Farce: The 2008 Pakistan Election and the Pakistan Army.

Muhammed Asadi.


For people who are saying that these elections are a “landmark in Pakistan’s history”, let me remind them that they are repeating in different words what Musharraf had been saying all along in his "dictatorship as the best defense of democracy" rhetoric, that followed last year’s declaration of emergency. In other words, those who are celebrating these elections and their results are trying to justify all the undemocratic maneuvering by the military and its dictator (Musharraf) that described the immediate context of these elections (part of which was the assassination of Benazir Bhutto) and thereby absolving the dictator of all wrong doing by saying it was “worth it” for democracy. Both these "winners", the PML-N and the PPP will fit into the ‘hierarchy of power’ prescribed for politicians by their superiors (the commanders of the Pakistan Army in our case), and if they try moving out of line they will be brought straight back in or sent home packing. Was it not the same "democratic-alliance" before the elections that vowed to boycott these elections, given their dictatorial context and then did a total turnaround to get power, rushing to outdo each other in legitimizing the same structure that is anti-democracy to the core?

To take part in the elections was to legitimize what led up to the elections and that was maneuvering by the military in order to salvage itself and its reputation from a total rebellion by the people to oust the occupiers. To take part in them was to legitimize Musharraf‘s rhetoric about his three stages of getting to “democracy through dictatorial control” where the Army remains firmly in charge. Elections have not brought democracy to this country and will not unless a charismatic leader of the caliber of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, people who in the absence of viable institutions are institutions by themselves, emerges who can move the masses against military domination in political affairs. The Pakistan Army has certainly not disappeared from the power equation, it is still in command, and total command, and will be regardless of the elections, which are merely a way to mask their rule. Such “masking” occurs ever so often when America wants to cut off Pakistan, needs it for some ulterior motive and wants to rescue those (the Pakistan Army) that have been serving it from being rejected violently by the local population through a revolutionary war. No issue facing Pakistan is greater in urgency than the domination of its dominant institution, the Pakistan Army by the American elite and the resulting forced atrophy of the rest of its social institutions including the political and the economic.

By punishing civilian “democratic” governments, the US elite achieve a two prong objective:

i)Discredit civilians and democracy in the eyes of the Pakistani public.
ii)Prevent the alienation of the Pakistan Army from America, making it go against the civilian government and then supporting such dictatorship wholeheartedly by economic injections for short term relief- the famous and often tried "stop gap" formula, with its reputation with the people enhanced due to such manipulation of constructed failure of the civilian governments.

The final results of the current elections in Pakistan reveals Army over lordship (checks and balances according to US defined parameters) presiding over a victory to the opposition, at a time when the Army-rule legitimacy is at the lowest level that it can possibly get before a civil war breaks out. How do you manipulate this situation to turn it into a win-win for the Pakistan Army: We don't have to go too far back in history to see how it occurs. Every so many years when the Americans want to salvage the Army (for their own purpose) and cut off Pakistan (for their own purpose) they encourage a so-called circumscribed "democracy". Now when the opposition forms a government, the belt will be tightened around Pakistan's neck by the Americans, the situation will get worse, setting the scenario for another military takeover where the previously (hated by people) military now appears all the more attractive. The Army will be salvaged for another almost a decade before this mantra is tried again.

However, it is getting increasingly tenuous for the Americans to try this formula in Pakistan with every successive Martial Law as they have done in the past because:

i)Every Martial Law produced unintended consequences, this run produced the lawyer's movement, which has become a thorn in the side of the establishment (military (colonial)/feudal/political nexus)
ii) The subordinates of the Western elite at the top of the Pakistan Army, due to the geographic distance from their real command (in Washington ) feel after a while that they preside over the nation quite independently and develop false notions of “sovereignty”.

For these reasons, the Americans might soon break from the past and try their hand at breaking up Pakistan with actual physical occupation of certain parts because dealing with their proxy occupation force (the Pakistan Army) gets tenuous with every Martial Law. In the meantime let the fools celebrate their victory even as General Kiyani looks towards the near future with hopes of salvaging through such celebration what would have turned out eventually, were the people’s sentiments not manipulated through the political establishment, to be the end of Pakistan's occupation by the Pakistan Army (by a pseudo-civil war). Finally, this vote was not so much an endorsement of the PPP or the PML-N as it was a rejection of military rule. Let the protest movements continue for therein lies our salvation as a nation.

Asadi,

Post the article here on this thread. I am writing a little piece on elections and would be interested in your take.