Pervez Musharraf and India Pakistan Rapproachment

Re: # 118

Karunanidhi has not killed as many as Modi managed to.

"If Modi is goon, he can not be popular in a progressive state like Gujrat. He is very popular amongst young and urban voters. A pennyless person like Modi can not get that overwhelming support without leadership quality and good execution. "

Who said goons cannot be popular with youth and urban voters? We saw what youth and urban voters, for Thugray, can do in Bombay. Even Karunanidhi was pennyless when he started his political career.

Re: # 114
In which respect Karunanidhi has better credentials? He has amassed wealth through unfair means. All his sons are goons and manipulate using money and muscle power.
If Modi is goon, he can not be popular in a progressive state like Gujrat. He is very popular amongst young and urban voters. A pennyless person like Modi can not get that overwhelming support without leadership quality and good execution.

Was in Tashkent last week. Met a Pakistani youngster. Said he was flabbergasted at seeing see so much white pusey. Throughout his stay he did nothing but drink and fornicate. According to him you cannot see any firangs in Lahore, Rawalpindi and Peshawar. They all get abducted, he said.
Thanks to Musharraf?
Promised to visit again and again. He need not be so sure. A few years ago all Pakistanis had been unceremoniously bundled out of Uzbekistan, most, it appears, were trying to incite islamic fundamentalism among local population.

Dost,
The issue with the people of Pakistan was to loudly and clearly thwart the threat from within and tell the world that Musharraf is not indispensible.The majority of the nation is more moderate than him and reject his flawed thesis of enlightened moderation.
Cheerios

dost-mittar #112
If the assassins of your friend had been Bajrang Dal goons who had trained in Gujarat, you would not write an article but would agree with the statement as a matter of fact that "'Modi must be given credit for not having any riots after 2002'". Correct so far?

My question in #101 was if the assassins of your friend had been Bajrang Dal goons who had trained in Gujarat, would you refrain from holding Modi responsible for continuing to train goons for murder and rather give him credit for the lack of riots after 2002?

Re: # 106

Modi knows if he continues to perpetrate his ways, he will be whacked.

Karunanidhi has better credentials than Modi. He and his sons have not murdered as many as Modi did.

#96 dost mittar: i am glad we agree on something (irresponsible statements by advani after 1998 blasts). but ultimately they worked in Pakistan's favor - they tilted Nawaz Sharif in favor of the military viewpoint of responding in kind and against the US viewpoint (conveyed via direct phone call from Clinton) of taking the so-called "high road" and not responding.

This is one time the generals had it right - because by demonstrating its nuclear capability, Pakistan ushered in peace, albeit a perilous one based on the MAD (mutually assured destruction) doctrine.


This brings me to another problem I have with your blessing a militar dictator for bringing peace - Musharraf's kargill sabotage of the peace process between NS and Vajpayee was all the more irresponsible because it was done in the shadow of the MAD doctrine. This scoundrel could have caused a nuclear holocaust in South Asia!!

You may not agree with the above at first reading - but think about it and I think you will agree that this is indeed the case.

sadna#101:

I am not sure I fully understand your post.

Re: # 108


Amassing wealth is not half dangerous as aspiring to be a Hitler. I don't support Karunanidhi and his progenies and also JJ.

I would rather let a money greedy guy rule over me than a power greedy. I do not want to live for somebody's whims.

nhk#90:

Salaam:

"Only when he was himslf was attacked, some sane realization dawned on him."

The attacks on him were an important catalyst, thanks for filling this important gap.

"He PROBABLY came on Jihadis but never eliminated these so called `Strategic Assets'."

Maybe they are still there if the reports of the ISI as a state within state are correct.

"Kashmir solution will take time & probably will automatically evaporate in an envisaged closer Economic/Political relationship within SAARC."

Agreed. But will the "envisaged closer Economic/Political relationship within SAARC" ever happen without the normalisation of relations between India and Pakistan?

Pew_Research#80:

"Your assessment of Musharraf is half true - the other truth is that India-Pakistan relationship nosedived with Musharraf's ascent."

Agreed! and this is what I implied when I said that Musharraf started with a messy slate.

"You also gloss over the decay of Pakistani civil society and the systematic erosion of Pakistani institutions that Musharraf presided over - this alone has a tremendous negative impact on neighborly ties."

I am not sure that the erosion of the Pakistani institutions had a negative effect on neighbourly relations. These institutions, especially the bureaucracy and the media, in Pakistan have fully supported jihad in Pakistan. Look no further than chowk where voices from hamidm to urstruly have all supported jihad in Kashmir.

"Last, but not the least, you did not analyze Musharraf's mindset for the Pakistani turnaround on the Taliban in his 'India - Lay Off!' speech after 9/11."

Musharraf's actions, not his mindset, is the focus of this article. The "hudbaiya" thing apart, I think that he is somebody who wants to move fast in resolving problems; I think that once he realised that normalisation with India was in Pakistan's interests, he was willing to take the necessary actions to make it happen.

Re: # 100
One more point - Modi has not amassed wealth like Karunanidhi and his wives and relatives. How can he influence people, if he is not doing good work!!! In democracy, he has to work according to the will of the people.

laddu #88: i didnt red flag your post, bro. But keep on the track you are on, and you will become like your distinguished countrymen pandit islamislam and sriram allah (i.e. their entire existence on chowk defined by their obsession with islam).

Re: # 100
Modi does not control VHP/Bajrang Dal. Even in this election they were against Mr. Modi. During 2002 riot, he has refrained police from taking hard action against mob. In that respect, every state Govt. supports this. The situation in Tamil Nadu and West Bengal are far worse than Gujrat. Who is Karunanidihi and his sons? What is CPI(M) in Kerala and West Bengal? It is upto you to honestly admit that. Ragrding Setu project, what action of Modi looks like violent to you? Please enlighten. Bihar, UP, Maharashtra had experienced large number of riots. These were during Congress period. When large section of population resort to violence, Indian administration does not try to control it effectively for the fear of backlash (to be faced in the next election). The way Mr. Modi has handled Narmada Bachao Movement, I have not seen any state Govt. handling such kind of movement with so much of civility.

#89 Posted by nazarhayatkhan

"Here you are incorrect. Army guys are not so far-sighted to plan a clever sophisticated revenge like this on a COAS firing."

Khan Sahib while not disagreeing with you entirely, I should remind you that actions sometimes have many purposes. Many angles are explored and many advantages are sought from one action.

If they were farsighted they would not have touched kargill when they did. So farsightedness is not their forte and we all agree with that but it is the lack of farsightedness that regrettably takes the Pak army to the areas where they should never tread!

I am sure you know how the decision making process works in the Pak army. It always starts with a "Sir ji…if we do this…then wada faeeda hoonda and then ends up with finding a surrogate to take the fall for the mistakes!

Kargil might have been in the plans for a long time. It was resurrected just in time to restore the GHQ prestige which had suffered enormously after the COAS was fired and also set a trap for the PM, who was eventually going to be the fall guy. The military controlled media later tried to exonerate the army and blamed Nawaz for surrender in Washington, while the poor guy was trying very hard to extricate the army in his own judgment from the ignobility!

I fully support Nawaz's demand that the NA should investigate Kargil. Now we do need to investigate all the military stupidities in Pakistan but Kargil would be a good start!

The Pakistan politicians must learn to nib the army when they can and they have the public sympathy behind them to do start doing that now! Otherwise the same army would again stab the people in the back!

Pakistan's survival depends on not having the army as the uniting force. I hope you agree with this!

Re: # 86
Stupid. India was never militarily involved in Afghanisthan. Rather, India provided help in education, health and other sectors, which common people of Afg. benefits. In this respect, Pakistan will never get upperhand in civilian sectors in Afg. Any civil Govt. in Afg will be pro-Indian.