Pervez Musharraf and India Pakistan Rapproachment

jayp#179:

It's not just the food that is common (and if you were picky, you could say that even in food a vegetarian visitor would have a very limited menu to choose from in Pakistn). Shared values include the same folk songs, the same dances, the same closeness of family, the same respect for elders, and even the same value that leads to honour killing; the ex-president of the SGPC is facing a murder trial for "honour killing" her daughter; even Indo-Canadian parents are known to have contracted the killing of their Canadian born daughter in India for marrying someone below their caste.

As regards the biggest demonstration in Pakistan, the same holds true for India and it has to do not with the tnt but the extreme sensitivity of Muslims about perceived insult to their religion. Indeed, it was an Indian Minister, no less, who offered to reward a prize of Rs.50 lakhs to anyone who would kill that cartoonist; and Tasleema Nasreen is hiding in a safe house in Delhi because the West Bengal govt. does not want to face the wrath of Muslims against her writings.

Ally#187:

I totally agree with your post. I also think that if all those steps are taken, the shared heritage would also ensure development of more relationships at individual levels, especially between the Punjabis on the two sides and of Mohajirs with Hindustani speakers.

saharanpuri#181;

"Note 2: It was in the Mandi Bahauddin camp that we first heard of this attack on the refugeee train from Pind Daddan Khan in which almost all men were killed and women and children abducted"

I haven't yet read the articles but this note caught my eye. A strange coincidence that my own father was on that train; he was one of the very few people hacked and given up for dead but who actually survived; he spent two months in hospital before he was strong enough to walk.

shankar, anil:

I think that tahmed sahib's analysis is wrong only in one aspect and that is his thinking that Vajpayee/Advani etc. were surprised and Vajpayee frightened into a dash to Pakistan after they discovered that Pakistan too could explode a bomb.

I think that it stands to reason, however, that a wise and seasoned leader like Vajpayee thought that in the post-explosion atmosphere and also to reduce the pariah status in which the two countries found themselves after their nuclear explsions, it was necessary to cool the temperature between the two countries and a bold step was required for that purpose; the Lahore Yatra followed.

#205 Posted by Pew_Research

Fairytales usually have no rhyme and reason and arguing with made up stories is basically silly. The exaggerated amount of lying that is a part of the Indian culture often makes Indians believe that whatever fairytale they would construct, will always have some Indians buyers.

What the first thing the above reference post does is supports the argument that the Indian nuke tests were directed against Pakistan and not a deterrent or to balance the power with China that has always been the Indian stated stand and no Pakistan in his right mind ever bought that!

So let’s look at how many legs this fairytale has.
In reality none!

First, the reported Pakistan warning to India was delivered in response to Indian military build up along the international borders in 1984 and not in the 90s. Second, The Kashmir insurgency started in 1989. So the two events were not related at all.

India had completed its first round of tests in 1974 and the Pak program came way after that. So if there was any possibility of nuke escalation, it was from India and not Pakistan.

Why India could not do what it did in 1965 was due to the nature of the insurgency in Kashmir. 1965, it were the Pakistani army troopers that entered in Indian Kashmir and before the Sept 1965, there were already skirmishes in Kutch! In 1989, Kashmir insurgency had a mix of both Kashmiris and Jihadis who went in Kashmir. In 1989, the issue of Afghanistan was still alive, though the US involvement in the area was decreasing but the Soviet supported regime was still in power in Afghanistan so for India to escalate the situation ala 1965 was impossible. On top of that the Indians had already been given an earful of Pakistani nuke capabilities so the chances of Indian crossing the international borders were minimal and no Indian government was willing to take the chance. Lastly, in 1989-92 there was volatility in the Indian political system and making a decision like attacking Pakistan was not possible, when musical chairs was being played in Delhi!

Before the BJP Gambit, India did try to test the nukes but was thwarted by the US.

“They correctly gambled that the world would (i) not tolerate Pakistani nuclear threats under which a Kashmir jehad could be waged, and (ii) the world will accept Indian nuclear weapons, but not Pakistani ones until Pakistan stopped proliferaton (which was known until that time privately by various governments, but the issue was never forced into the open), and (iii) the Chinese would be forced to cease covert nuclear cooperation with the Pakistanis.”

Wrong on all counts! Indian test were greeted with condemnation right away throughout the world. If the world had accepted the Indian tests, then why the prerequisite of the recently proposed treaty between the US-India calls for a complete nuke test ban from India?

Proliferation was a non issue at that time. It became an issue after 9/11 and so far there is no proof that the Chinese have withdrawn support from the Pak nuke program!

“a) Pakistan has stopped delivering covert and overt threats regarding use of nuclear weapons.”

Again no legs. The Pakistanis have made it very clear that they would not hesitate to use the nukes if they faced a perceived disaster in any conventional war. This was implied on many occasions. An active missile development program attests to the fact that the Pakistani government likes to have the capability to strike as far as possible in the Indian heartland including the cities as far as Chennai!

“The Kashmir Jehad is for all practial purposes off - the world opinion no longer buys sponsoring insurgencies under a nuclear umbrella.”

Kashmir Jihad under the nuke umbrella? Kashmir story has not ended yet and in fact Indian government was forced to offer more concessions to the Kashmiris including putting Musharaf’s picture smack in the middle of Srinagar. I was recently in Pakistan, and no one would dare place Mush’s picture in any Pakistani city. But he is an undisputed equal of the Indian leadership in Kashmir! Kashmir is not going anywhere and there is still indigenous insurgency in Kashmir very much alive and kicking. 750,000 or more Indian troops are not there for some honeymoon on Lake Dal!

Under the US pressure Indians have been forced to discuss Kashmir and the real PM of India Sonia Gandhi, had to come down to Kashmir to start the Bus service!

The NPT was offered to India because Pakistan had refused to sign any treaty that India did not sign.

I think this is enough at this time to counter the fairytale which obviously was constructed without any research. A blot on a prestigious organization whose name here is being used infringing the trade mark laws. A typical Indian habit to cheat!

HP: Your hostility to India is getting the better of your analysis. The CTBT was a crucial aspect of testing. So was the absolute determination of the BJP government to test. Two distinct reasons came together at one time. Bullying Pakistan after the fact was a bonus. There was no downside to Pakistan testing nukes for India. Equal Equal sanctions hurt Pakistan more, just as Travel Advisories to both hurt India more.

Re: # 213

HP Mian’s obsession and his hatred to toward those, whom he calls Ganesh Mutants and Mother Burners, are part of his life. Narcissistic belief has convinced HP Mian that whatever nano, pico and micro analysis upon analysis he dishes out, will always have buyers. Ignorantly he fails to realize that his analysis does not even come close to fairytales which have rhyme and reason to attracts kids and help them learn. Arguing with his narcissistic obsession is impossible. His naiveté is so obvious. 1987 elections in Indian Kashmir were rigged. This rigging turned Shabir Shah, Yasin Malik, and Javed Mir, who were polling agents in these elections, to look west of LOC and later lead insurgency.

Proliferation only in his mind was a non-issue. It became a bigger issue when non-state actors (as Pavo Sahib calls them) entered post 9/11, and put Pakistan’s nuclear bazaar the issue. Till then non-proliferation efforts were targeted toward ex-soviet union countries, to account for the missing nuclear material. Islamic terrorism coming into picture put urgency to control or de-nuke Pakistan. Undoubtedly HP Mian cannot see global picture, when nano, pico and macro analysis is all he can come up?

Same defect shows up as his lack of understanding what are possible in however defective Indian democracy, yes people can put Musharraff’s picture in Connaught Place, New Delhi too.

HP Mian what is possible in India may not be possible in Pakistan, is known to all. There is no testosteronics in it. Give it up. A 20 something Sindhi boy told you, according to your own travelogue, it is not too long when your nano, pico and macro analysis is not tolerated in your good old Sindh. Putting a picture in Srinagar or Connaught Place does not make anyone bigger or smaller.

Passions do not always translate into power. Please do not run on your testosterones so high. There is no need to play the game of mirror with Musharraff’s picture in Srinagar, and smoke with the bus service.

Please do not delude, the truth is out, people who should know it, already know it.

By the way HP Mian's best after Ganesh Mutants and Mother Burners is his circular logic that drives him to produce masterpieces “The NPT was offered to India because Pakistan had refused to sign any treaty that India did not sign.”

Some circular logic to drive HP Mian's nano, pico and macro analysis upon analysis.

Priority in Karachi where crime is the law, is getting rid of the beggers in streets so that the ilks of YLH and other pakistanis can claim that there are no beggers in pakistan. From dawn of today

KARACHI: Drive against beggars ordered


KARACHI, Feb 28: The Capital City Police Officer, Niaz Ahmed Siddiqui, has ordered all the police officials to take action against beggars under the Vagrancy Act in their respective areas.

A missile attack from a predator in pakistan and see what the a major general had to say. from dawn of today

Lying through the teeth, a training must in the pak military officers training academy , of course other than surrender ceremony. Cry my dear pakistanis...cry..cry for some truth in the pak society.
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Six foreigners among 8 killed in Waziristan: Locals suspect missile strike from across border



By Our Correspondent


WANA, Feb 28: Eight suspected militants, four of them Arabs and two from Central Asian states, were killed and three others wounded in a missile attack on a house in Kalosha area of South Waziristan after Wednesday midnight.







Pakistan’s chief military spokesman Maj-Gen Athar Abbas told AFP that information from the area indicated the deaths were caused by explosive material stored in the house.

“As per our information it was an explosion caused by explosive material in a house,” he said, adding that the blast reportedly killed 10 to 12 people. Their nationalities were not known, he said.

Dost,

In any case if you can find commonality, with pakistan, well that is your perception.

Let me give one example related to trade. I have read so many articles in pak news papers, even on chowk that it is the trade surplus that india has got is impeding bilateral trade. I recall that this surplus is nearly 2 billion dollars. The trade surplus that china has got with pakistan is about 8 billion and no one talks about it. Infact pakistan has no trade surplus with any country.

This I cite as a good example of the educated and the professionals following the TNT logic. One should not forget that it is jinnah who said that hindus and pakis are two nations, one worshipos the cows while the other eats them. This legacy of the TNT concept has pervaded even the economists approach to the other nation.

dost mittar #212 you write "Vajpayee thought that in the post-explosion atmosphere and also to reduce the pariah status in which the two countries found themselves after their nuclear explsions "

Far from being put in a pariah status, the historical record is clear that the opposite happened: the Pressler Amendment which had imposed economic sanctions on both countries (although in practice hurt Pakistan far more than India) were effectively lifted via the Brownback Amendment that followed of July the same year as the explosions.

you continue "..it was necessary to cool the temperature between the two countries"

Exactly my point, sir. :-) The temperature had been heated by India itself when it conducted the nuclear explosions and Advani and co. then started making public statements.

Anyway - there is a nuclear stalemate now, and has been ever since 1998. And this stalemate then serves as the launch pad for peace and economic prosperity in the entire region. And for that to happen on a broad-based and irreversible manner, it is much better to have a democratic government in Pakistan than a military dictatorship.

anil #207 That is an interesting point you make about the combined population of east and west panjab being over 100 million. And furthermore, both are among the richest provinces in their respective countries, blessed with a rich agricultural soil and an energetic and enterprising population.

What would be interesting to see is how Zardari's call for greater provincial autonomy in Pakistan combined with his unprecedented (but potentially very powerful) steps towards bringing together every group within Pakistan translates in practice. The one time a few years ago that I had the opportunity to hear BB speak in person at close quarters, she was asked what three things she would do differently if she became prime minister a third time - and she had listed improving relations with India as one of them. She had then gone on to say that in her first two terms she had made the mistake of overcompensating for her being a woman and thus appearing too soft on India. Once things settle down in Pakistan, it therefore seems very likely that Zardari and Nawaz Sharif will see re-starting the peace process with India as a priority item.

#213 Posted by HP on February 28, 2008 8:33:06 pm


Kashmir story has not ended yet and in fact Indian government was forced to offer more concessions to the Kashmiris including putting Musharaf’s picture smack in the middle of Srinagar.


You couldn't force India to stop building the baglihar dam but you "forced" India to put up musharraf's picture?

wow...kashmir must really be out of reach..pakis are clutching at non-existent straws...

#219 Posted by tahmed32 on February 29, 2008 3:06:56 am


were effectively lifted via the Brownback Amendment that followed of July the same year as the explosions.


prophet tahmed: the brownback amendment gave bubba the authority to waive sanctions for a year...that's soo not the same as lifting sanctions...

of course..don't let the facts get in the way of a good cold morning delusion...

pandit arjun: did you take the blue pill today?

prophet tahmed: if morpheus stops by and offers you the red pill that will free you from your paki echo-chamber of self-delusions, take it..

of course, given that you're a paki...you'll likely take the blue pill and continue to enjoy your self-delusionary worldview...