Pervez Musharraf and India Pakistan Rapproachment

Dear tahmed,

It perhaps is true that Indians are pissed off at Pakistan becomming a different country, but I have difficulty in buying this hypothesis. At least as far is today's India is concerned.

Today's India has in it two different countries in it complete with their own laws (or lack thereof), culture, fetishes etc. These countries belong to the 'haves' and 'have-nots'. The former, are at a loss when they see the 'have-nots' create trouble. After all they made it by working hard! Now some of the have nots who are creating "trouble" (or provide cannon-fodder for trouble) happen to be Muslims and are to some extent supported by the Pakistani state and cheered on by some Pakistani people. This gets the goat of the "haves" ... and you see them rave and rant in chowk.

The actual trouble brewing in India has very little to do with Pakistan (of course the Pakistani state will gladly egg this on if it can). Just keep track of wahst the Naxals are doing and what is being done to them (and the people who live in these regions). The fun is just starting in India.

#26 Posted by dost_mittar

“Self-determination, I believe, was held only in the frontier province and some districts of Assam.”

It is hard to discuss political issues with people whose political understanding is based on what they read in daily Newspapers. There is so much available on the net now that if you don’t understand a political terminology, you can always Google it and learn at least something about it.

What happened in NWFP and Assam was not Self-determination. It is called referendum or plebiscite on issue.

Here is an explanation from wiki:
“Self determination is a principle, often seen as a moral and legal right, that "all peoples have the right [to] freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

ananth:

Yes, better communications do play a role and there is no better communication than people to people contact.

sadna#32:

Yes, I was very personally affected by my friend's assasination; I am still a friend of the family and am planning to meet the widow again tomorrow.

But I do not believe that my personal tragedy should make me lose sight of the overall reality; the need to reduce more useless deaths of innocent people and, in case of Pakistan, this would happen if there is no support for jihadi activities directed at India and Indians which, in turn, would happen if Pakistanis do not consider India to be their enemy. From what I see, this is happening more and more and jihad against India is losing its supporters in Pakistan.

It is not my position that this trend is irreversible but the more we can expand the India-friendly constituency in Pakistan, the more difficult it will become for the ruling elite to reignite the old hostile passions.

DM ji, #52 is very well argued, but still, somehow I feel, you will get a lot of 'beating up' on this thread, and all of it thoroughly well-deserved :)

India's saving grace is the rise of South India, where people don't have hangups like you do (or partly I do too) - always chasing a non-existent bird.

We just have a find a way to pass the political baton in their hands, so we as a people can focus on things we need to focus on. Best.

jayp#34:

"There can be no ondo-pak raproachment untill and unless the notion of TNt is removed from the pak mind set. Mushy did nothing to change the k for kafir education of the pak govt schools, during his time the madrassas flourished."

Well, there is as yet no removal of the tnt from the Pakistani mindset, although some people are beginning to more closely examine the costs and benefits of creating the new nation. From what I recall, Mush's education minister did ask for the revision of text books to make changes in some hateful passages.

zeemax#35:

I agree.

Re. Frontier Corps, I found it only from pav's posts. I wonder how come the US does not know about it? If their intelligence network in Pakistan is so inept, how can they ever hope to find OBL or anyone else they want to find?

Muqaddam#36:

"As for the so called change in Musharraf's policy toward India, it is in fact the humiliating withdrawal of Pak troops from Kargil heights convinced him that he cannot mess with India."

I believe that the change came much later; as late as July 2001, he was quite adamant in his position during the Agra summit.

tahmed32:

"As for your saying Kargill happened before the 1998 explosions -"

Ek guzaarish hai aap se: please read my posts twice before responding. I said exactly the opposite, namely the nuclear weapons existed at the time of the Kargil operation but they did not prevent Musharraf's adventurism.

Re. your shopkeeper's analogy, I never said that Musharraf did the right thing in removing the duly elected prime minister. But what he did after he came to power is something else. To give an analogy (please read twice to ensure you dont misinterpret), while I am unhappy that Muslim\ conquerors defeated my ancestors, I am quite willing to acknowlege the significant contributions made by Muslims to Indian heritage.

pmishra#45:

"But I am much less hopeful about the future. Pakistan has a 60 year history of being for "rent" by the highest bidder. Whoever will pay the elite class, will get the country to follow them."

Please read Ranjit's post above yours, with which I am in full agreement. For the first time, Pakistanis are looking at India with admiration and respect and not disdain. Earlier, some of them used to admire our democracy but found nothing else to admire, as they were doing better than Indians in terms of standard of living, economic well-being and physical infrastructure. However, they have noticed the rapid progress of India during the last fifteen years and the favourable international image that it has been creating for itself, while the opposite is happening to their own country. In fact, their admiration for Indian democracy is somewhat diminished as they see the democratic system producing leaders like Narendra Modi.

dost-mittar
I am curious, if the assassins had been Bajrang Dal goons who had trained in Gujarat, would we ever have had an article from you saying 'Modi must be given credit for not having any riots after 2002'.

You are talking of ending of a Pakistani state policy which is run by those who care little for what people think. Their budget though a huge fraction of the national one and paid for by general public is a one-line item which no civilian official can question forget about ordinary people.

Musharraf cannot be given credit for promoting peace in the face of his continuing jihad and subversion policy, whatever reasons you cite for his continuing jihad and subversion policy.

Ranjit#46:

I fully agree with you. I look towards future with cautious optimism.

Ras#47:

Yes, nuclear armed countries have to act more responsibly.

As for the Kahmir issue, I think that it still has a lot of emotional baggage on both sides but I have a feeling that it is no longer considered to be the sha-rug by Pakistanis.

GT#48,49:

I beg to differ. I do see a qualitative change this time. When was the last time that we had so many confidence building measures taking place? when was the last time a Pakistani leader called the peace process irreversible? (the ususal line was that the peace process cannot move forward unless the Kashmir problem is solved first). When was the last time trains, buses, trucks and airplane services were expanding between the two countries? When was the last time that trade was growing exponentially between the two countries? And when was the last time that Hindus were able to visit their holy places in Pakistan? Even if the peace process is not irreversible now, it will become in a few years if the momentum continues.

GT#48,49:

I beg to differ. I do see a qualitative change this time. When was the last time that we had so many confidence building measures taking place? when was the last time a Pakistani leader called the peace process irreversible? (the ususal line was that the peace process cannot move forward unless the Kashmir problem is solved first). When was the last time trains, buses, trucks and airplane services were expanding between the two countries? When was the last time that trade was growing exponentially between the two countries? And when was the last time that Hindus were able to visit their holy places in Pakistan? Even if the peace process is not irreversible now, it will become so in a few years if the momentum continues.

Regarding haves and have nots in India, I think that there are distinct differences between the two types of terrorist activities taking place in India. The naxalites clearly represent the have-nots but there is hardly any Muslim in their ranks; on the other hand, the Muslims taking part in terrorist activities, now more and more home grown, are more like their educated counterparts in the western countries; there are highly educated professionals in their ranks who are out to avenge real or perceived injustices to their community.

HP#50:

"It is hard to discuss political issues with people whose political understanding is based on what they read in daily Newspapers."


Then please don't! I am what I am and cannot be what I am not.