Pervez Musharraf and India Pakistan Rapproachment

Re: # 92
Mr. Anil, Modi is not goonda. He has very clean political record. Gujrat is not Pakistan, where negative rhetoric can win election. Certain points Gujratis know very well, which is not highlighted by media.
Sohrbuddin was a gangster and was budding Dawood Ibrahim under Congress umbrella. There were pending cases against him in Rajasthan and MP as well. So, the encounter, though looks illegal, have saved another disaster in happening like Mumbai. He has taken similar steps against mafias in Porebandar. Media does not show that.
Regarding riots, it is now clear that you disarm moslems, riot stops. More than 200 year old tradition is history now. Whatever happened during 2002 is abberation. If Modi had any plan to eleminate moslems, he should have taken long term approach (like moslems in Pakistan and Bangladesh has taken. You will not see any sudden flair up, but situation is created in such a way that people will leave their home gradually and over a period of 10/15 years, the entire demography etc...got changed). He is very much autocratic and couple of his ministers are tainted. That is very small compared to other states.

GT#72:

"Why can't a peace process not be reversed?"

I have already said in an earlier interact that I do not think that the peace process is yet irreversible, but could become so if the current momentum is maintained and vested interests develop on both sides of the border to maintain peace between the two countries.

"The US or Pakistan will not solve the problem of "terrorism" for India. Indians will have to do so by themselves."

With this, I agree one hundred per cent. But outside help can't hurt either.

After open economy, people are more bothered about prosperity than Pakistan/China anybody else. The biggest concern for India is China and not Pakistan. The low intensity conflict may bleed India, but ecomic growth better than China will provide India an upper hand in military capability as well.
1998 Neuclear test was conducted to threaten China ( stupid idea from A P J Kalam and RSS/BJP people bought the logic). China have used Pakistan to invade in Kargil.

Re: # 97

Mr.nkg

Are you trying to say that the carnage in Gujarat does not amount to goondaism? Hasn't he facilitated goondas to control the lives of Hindus? In the premise of saving Hinduism, didn't we see his goondas intimidate people?

No amount of economic development will offset fascism. Doesn't he resort to goondaism when he says no to Sethusamudram project?

dost_mittar #91
Let us be clear. If the assassins were Bajrang Dal goons who had trained in Gujarat, you would not hold Modi responsible for continuing to train goons for murder and prefer to point to the lack of riots after 2002?

anil#73:

"He did not create conditions for change between India and Pakistan. Almost all visible conditions were external."

No, he did not create those conditions. But he did have the will and the capacity to change his position in the current circumstances. Even the bureaucracy, let alone military establishment, would not have let a civilian leader take some dramatic changes.

I had written at chowk a couple of years ago that even though Musharraf has described Kashmir as the jugular vein of Pakistan, he would choose Pakistan over Kashmir if he had to make the choice, and this is what he did.

Re: # 86
Stupid. India was never militarily involved in Afghanisthan. Rather, India provided help in education, health and other sectors, which common people of Afg. benefits. In this respect, Pakistan will never get upperhand in civilian sectors in Afg. Any civil Govt. in Afg will be pro-Indian.

Re: # 86
Stupid. India was never militarily involved in Afghanisthan. Rather, India provided help in education, health and other sectors, which common people of Afg. benefits. In this respect, Pakistan will never get upperhand in civilian sectors in Afg. Any civil Govt. in Afg will be pro-Indian.

#89 Posted by nazarhayatkhan

"Here you are incorrect. Army guys are not so far-sighted to plan a clever sophisticated revenge like this on a COAS firing."

Khan Sahib while not disagreeing with you entirely, I should remind you that actions sometimes have many purposes. Many angles are explored and many advantages are sought from one action.

If they were farsighted they would not have touched kargill when they did. So farsightedness is not their forte and we all agree with that but it is the lack of farsightedness that regrettably takes the Pak army to the areas where they should never tread!

I am sure you know how the decision making process works in the Pak army. It always starts with a "Sir ji…if we do this…then wada faeeda hoonda and then ends up with finding a surrogate to take the fall for the mistakes!

Kargil might have been in the plans for a long time. It was resurrected just in time to restore the GHQ prestige which had suffered enormously after the COAS was fired and also set a trap for the PM, who was eventually going to be the fall guy. The military controlled media later tried to exonerate the army and blamed Nawaz for surrender in Washington, while the poor guy was trying very hard to extricate the army in his own judgment from the ignobility!

I fully support Nawaz's demand that the NA should investigate Kargil. Now we do need to investigate all the military stupidities in Pakistan but Kargil would be a good start!

The Pakistan politicians must learn to nib the army when they can and they have the public sympathy behind them to do start doing that now! Otherwise the same army would again stab the people in the back!

Pakistan's survival depends on not having the army as the uniting force. I hope you agree with this!

Re: # 100
Modi does not control VHP/Bajrang Dal. Even in this election they were against Mr. Modi. During 2002 riot, he has refrained police from taking hard action against mob. In that respect, every state Govt. supports this. The situation in Tamil Nadu and West Bengal are far worse than Gujrat. Who is Karunanidihi and his sons? What is CPI(M) in Kerala and West Bengal? It is upto you to honestly admit that. Ragrding Setu project, what action of Modi looks like violent to you? Please enlighten. Bihar, UP, Maharashtra had experienced large number of riots. These were during Congress period. When large section of population resort to violence, Indian administration does not try to control it effectively for the fear of backlash (to be faced in the next election). The way Mr. Modi has handled Narmada Bachao Movement, I have not seen any state Govt. handling such kind of movement with so much of civility.

laddu #88: i didnt red flag your post, bro. But keep on the track you are on, and you will become like your distinguished countrymen pandit islamislam and sriram allah (i.e. their entire existence on chowk defined by their obsession with islam).

Re: # 100
One more point - Modi has not amassed wealth like Karunanidhi and his wives and relatives. How can he influence people, if he is not doing good work!!! In democracy, he has to work according to the will of the people.

Pew_Research#80:

"Your assessment of Musharraf is half true - the other truth is that India-Pakistan relationship nosedived with Musharraf's ascent."

Agreed! and this is what I implied when I said that Musharraf started with a messy slate.

"You also gloss over the decay of Pakistani civil society and the systematic erosion of Pakistani institutions that Musharraf presided over - this alone has a tremendous negative impact on neighborly ties."

I am not sure that the erosion of the Pakistani institutions had a negative effect on neighbourly relations. These institutions, especially the bureaucracy and the media, in Pakistan have fully supported jihad in Pakistan. Look no further than chowk where voices from hamidm to urstruly have all supported jihad in Kashmir.

"Last, but not the least, you did not analyze Musharraf's mindset for the Pakistani turnaround on the Taliban in his 'India - Lay Off!' speech after 9/11."

Musharraf's actions, not his mindset, is the focus of this article. The "hudbaiya" thing apart, I think that he is somebody who wants to move fast in resolving problems; I think that once he realised that normalisation with India was in Pakistan's interests, he was willing to take the necessary actions to make it happen.

nhk#90:

Salaam:

"Only when he was himslf was attacked, some sane realization dawned on him."

The attacks on him were an important catalyst, thanks for filling this important gap.

"He PROBABLY came on Jihadis but never eliminated these so called `Strategic Assets'."

Maybe they are still there if the reports of the ISI as a state within state are correct.

"Kashmir solution will take time & probably will automatically evaporate in an envisaged closer Economic/Political relationship within SAARC."

Agreed. But will the "envisaged closer Economic/Political relationship within SAARC" ever happen without the normalisation of relations between India and Pakistan?

Re: # 108


Amassing wealth is not half dangerous as aspiring to be a Hitler. I don't support Karunanidhi and his progenies and also JJ.

I would rather let a money greedy guy rule over me than a power greedy. I do not want to live for somebody's whims.

sadna#101:

I am not sure I fully understand your post.