Reinterpretation of Islam in Turkey

Re: # 269

Salim sahib:

You always amaze me of your talent. Do you plan to open a school to train? I want to attend that "School of Salim's Excellence".

#273 Posted by hamidm2

OK then ...

Hamid mian zindabad.

psssst ... by the way, and I won't tell, you do miss him?

Re: # 271

GT,

.... he will be back on friday - we will see how it goes when he comes back .... if he uses the words 'us elite' even once he will be banished for life ..... we don't suffer fools easily (with the exception of arjun mian and romair who have seniority)

Re: # 268

salim mian,

.... it is nice to see you back and in great form ..... how long do you think it will be before the turks 'revert' and outlaw raki ? ..... as much as i would like to believe in 'moderate islam' it just seems to be an impossible oxymoron ..... cheers

Am I the only one missing masadi here? Serious guys, have some shame ... ganging up on someone probably younger than your kids.

Hamid mian murdabad!

260 Posted by zeemax on March 4, 2008 8:10:58 am

I don’t know why you say it’s false. God does not descend from heaven to tell us how exactly to use his book. From Khulfa e Rashidun on down this will has been interpreted by the Caliphs and subsequent kings who used their chamcha ulemas to give the King’s will the guise of Quranic sanction. Yes, there have been several examples of ulema who protested and in this process were lashed, imprisoned or put to death. I would like you to site a single example from antiquity, where such a rebellion that may have lead to a revolt, the ummah claiming true Sharia and establishing an Islamic state. Nineteenth and Twentieth century examples are nothing more then stylistic oppositions that precipitated in personality cults. I am talking about the Mehdi in Sudan and Ayatullah Khomeini.

Non-submission to anything in worldly terms is not liberty?

I think a bit of education is in order. Starting from the first fitna which occurred in Uthman’s time opposing parties have always held up the Quran and claimed whatever their viewpoint as according to the Book and claimed themselves to be the true defenders of the faith, while deriding the opposing side as Godless, against the Book and the faith, and against righteousness. Every one is happy to have others submit to their version of the Quran, in other words their will, what could be more hypocritical then that. So you always wave the Book to achieve submission to whatever idea you have.

{"Re: # 253
tahmed,
..... i really don't want to defy gravity,..."}

Hamidumdum Sahib,
While I do not pretend to have the spiritual authority of Chacha, I have to intervene to answer your very pertinent questions. My answers are in bold.

{" i just don't feel like debasing myslef five times a day and banging my head on the floor ..... most of all, it makes my ankles hurt "}

Hamidumdum Sahib, are you talking about praying or are you trying out some of those horrible Hindoo exercises detailed in the Kama Sutra? Sir, your ankles should have no part in whatever you are trying to do - that's for advanced sages and the last one died during the reign of Chandragupta. :) The main thing about prayer is that when you perform sijda, make sure that everyone behind you is also doing the same.

{"can i tell the al-lah mian to take a hike and do what i want to do (go to the bar) or do i have to submit to his will ?"}

Hamidumdum Sahib, you can tell the Bag One to do whatever you like. Whether he takes a hike or throws another log on the fire is entirely up to Him.

{"can i be like jinnah and have a ham sandwich with my beer without being cast into hell with hindoos and other undesirable characters"}

You have to get Manto's permission. What do you think this is - some Elvis impersonation contest? You can have a turkey ham sambitch with near beer if you don't want to live with horrible hindoos forever. Are you really hungry and thirsty or do you just want to be a pain in the divine arse?

{"and what about bigger things,"}

Sorry! That's a horrible Hindoo concern. Penile enlargement is not necessary for Muslims.

{"like let's say i want to listen to music, let my wife drive, pee standing up, abolish slavery or - god forbid - ban suicide bombings"}

Hamidumdum Sahib, all these things are fine as long as you remember the appropriate order of your wish list. The last thing we want is to have you listen to your wife peeing while you drive standing up as you blow up banned slaves and declare their demise a suicide.

{"can i tell defy al-lah mian and do all this without lightening striking me "}

Hamidumdum Sahib, no problemo. Many people have told Bag One to go fly a kite without attracting electricity. Of course, as the financial pundits always say, past performance is no guarantee of future results....

Gill Sahib,
Good article and very encouraging for moderate Muslims. As we say in Turkey "we don't drink in the mosque and we don't pray in the bar." :)

Re: # 188

Tahmed Sahib:

By mainstream I meant that views that majority can related.

It is my, a non-muslim perception that your views on Islam are more asbstract, and are probably better (if such a comparison is possible).

While Hamidm Mian's can be best described as the batsman at the crease, after ball that was hit out of the ballpark and lost. Hamidm Mian is still batting with with that imaginary ball. Only for the Quioxtic perception among his audience that has to include "unwashed masses" and Massaddi Mian, I cannot agree with him, but I am not into religions.

Unless he becomes the first Vegetarian Pathan, he chose not to respond to my request.

Zeemax sahib's views as he expresses here are such that I would thing simple minded muslim will catch on, therefore, I called them more mainstream.

On other issues you raised, Tahmed sahib, I believe that after destruction, reconstruction should follow. It is natural. There is no need to go for restoration.

Reconstruction, more than restoration, is the need in Pakistan, after its Awam gave such a resounding verdict.

This verdict was handed over three weeks ago. In the U.K., and India where there is a parliamentay democracy, by now president would have invited the leader of the largest party to prove strength and form the government. The leader would have been given a deadline for this show of strength. Prove it or forget it. The next leader would be called if the largest party leader failed, and so on.

I do not see such process going on. It seems leaders are at loss what Awam has gifted them. Something Hamidm Mian eludes at this board. Despite all my efforts to hedge, I have to concede this concurrence with Hamidm Mian.

Tahemd sahib, I am for resonctruction and not for restoration.

Awam has given a clear mandate so that 2/3rd majority government can be formed at the center which can go ahead with reconstrution. Restoration is neither needed, nor necessary, except for leaders with bruised egos.

Don't you think you should discard call for restoration in favor of reconstruction?

Regarding disappearancees, democracy has very long memories, Pinochet was tried almost a generation later. He tried to escape like a rat, but could not. Fujimori tried to run like a rat, but could not. Let Pakistani democracy deal its culprits, but please construct democracy first. It will take care of its rats.

Re: # 259 Posted by hamidm2 on March 4, 2008 8:09:21 am

Hamid mian,

{ without being cast into hell with hindoos and other undesirable characters ? .......}

are you implying that being with the unwashed masses who call themselves muslims is not being in hell?

Re: # 263

tahmed,

..... i think you would make a good murtid if you can get rid of the emotional baggage that you have been carrying ..... just because your father wrote a book on 'short-cut' islam does not mean you have to believe in it too ....... freedom of religion is a good thing, but 'freedom from religion' is equally, if not more, important ....... we don't want the mutawa beating up tehsin for not saying his prayers and 'pursuing happiness' instead ........

#253 Posted by tahmed32 on March 4, 2008 7:59:38 am

Submission to the will of God, as expressed by you is one thing, but it is another when it becomes as interpreted and enforced by the Khalifa ul Vaqt. This is the Taliban, Mullah Omar and the Saudi King model. Through out history and even with the current crop of Islamic rulers they all take their legitimacy from this hierarchy. Their enforcement is only tempered by their personal abilities and both internal and external pressures. So you have the right to express your freedoms till prayer time when mutawa forces you to close shop and head for the mosque.

#262 hamidm: you mean you never read that "short-cut" muslim speech I made only yesterday on chowk? :-(

Re: # 261

tahmed,

.... thanks .... so you are saying i don't have to pray, eat a ham sandwich, let my wife drive, abolish slavery, ban child marriages and basically do what i think is right without bringing al-lah into my business ..... i lkie that ... you are a good prophet

#253 hamidm: you need God's permission for all that? You think God needs your prayers? or that he will change the course of events if you pray hard enough or are sufficiently flattering? You are confusing God with Musharraf and yourself with Musharraf's lotas.

#255 Posted by TehsinA,

Again an ignorant remark.

The will of God as expressed in his Book the Quran. As interpreted and enforced by the Khalifa ul Vaqt.

Both can't be said in the same breath. The first part is true while the second is false. Rebellion against a ruler who strays from the path of Allah is encouraged, and witnessed many times.

Isn’t submission diametrically opposed to liberty?

Are you kidding? Non-submission to anything in worldly terms is not liberty? Freedom? etc ... (whatever the hell the difference is between the two which hamidm2 keeps harping about).