Reinterpretation of Islam in Turkey

Re: # 253

tahmed,

..... i really don't want to defy gravity, but i just don't feel like debasing myslef five times a day and banging my head on the floor ..... most of all, it makes my ankles hurt .... can i tell the al-lah mian to take a hike and do what i want to do (go to the bar) or do i have to submit to his will ? ..... also - and this may sound trivial - can i be like jinnah and have a ham sandwich with my beer without being cast into hell with hindoos and other undesirable characters ? .......

....... and what about bigger things, like let's say i want to listen to music, let my wife drive, pee standing up, abolish slavery or - god forbid - ban suicide bombings ..... can i tell defy al-lah mian and do all this without lightening striking me ?

#250 zeemax: true. The prophet himself would not doubt have said "God save me from my followers!!".

#250 Posted by tahmed32,

You're welcome. But if you had read the last sermon, you wouldn't have needed to ask the question in the first place.

dm #251 you are welcome sir.

#239 Posted by zeemax on March 4, 2008

Well let me just give you an opening remark. Islam means submission. Submission to the will of God. The will of God as expressed in his Book the Quran. As interpreted and enforced by the Khalifa ul Vaqt. Isn’t submission diametrically opposed to liberty?

Rather then quipping about my ignorance why don’t you provide a scholarly refutation.

PS: this is a repeat of my 249 post where I forgot to direct it to the appropriate party.

Re: # 249

tehsin,

.... you can do better than this ! .... give him the full speech - the one that i have had to suffer so many times .... you know, the one based on the concept of 'pursuit of happiness'

TehsinA #249: I dont know who this is addressed to, but here is my comment:

It is a triviality to say Islam means submission to the will of Allah. Of course we all submit to the will of Allah - try breaking the Law of Gravity, e.g. Or try growing younger rather than older. Or try to fly a kite in a tornado. I dont need a lifetime of study or endless verses from the Quran or refernces to the sunnah to tell me that. The trouble starts when someone says "Dont use your head, just do what I tell you to because I am an Islamic scholar and you are not."

So, if you wish to define Islam based on trivialities that you have been hearing from mullahs fine and never stopped to consider a moment to think about, that is fine too.

#249 Posted by TehsinA,

When one is asked to fear no one but Allah, could there be anything more liberating?

tahmed32:

Thanks for a clear answer.

zeemax #248 Thanks for the clarification.

Well let me just give you an opening remark. Islam means submission. Submission to the will of God. The will of God as expressed in his Book the Quran. As interpreted and enforced by the Khalifa ul Vaqt. Isn’t submission diametrically opposed to liberty?

Rather then quipping about my ignorance why don’t you provide a scholarly refutation.

#247 Posted by tahmed32

I'm sure you're mistaken or misread me. Muhammad was certainly not infallible, and said so himself many times.

#242 you just did! when you were clearly distressed by my considering the prophet to be a fallible human being. gazillions of muslims have arabic calligraphy spelling out Allah and Mohammed at par - and this is nothing but making a de facto god of the prophet, a co-equal with God.

#237 TehsinA: unlike this ghamdi you mention, my search had a beginning and an end. This endless "search for the truth" by sufis and aalims is a wild goose chase, and the endless references to sunnahs, hadiths, Quranic verses (preferably in guttural "pure arabic" accent) is not Islam. It is bs. The Quran says it is a book to make things simple - and it is.

I read the Quran using my head (per #234/235), satisfied myself that I was quite correct in defining Islam the way I have and that this indeed reflected the message of the Quran. And moved on from there. The Quran is about how to live this life (i.e. tell right from wrong and do the right thing), and everything else is bs. I can move on and look for other truths (and there is a lot of wonderful new truths being unravelled today thanks to science in terms of the Book of Life, Origins of the Universe, and so on) - which is precisely what I should be doing anyway, per the Quran (i.e. God did not create mankind to worship him - rather he created mankind to learn about his Creation - in other words do what scientists and men belonging to the Age of Reason are doing.

This is a much better way to live than to be like either the hamidms of the muslims world or the urstrulys.

#237 TehsinA: unlike this ghamdi you mention, my search had a beginning and an end. This endless "search for the truth" by sufis and aalims is a wild goose chase, and the endless references to sunnahs, hadiths, Quranic verses (preferably in guttural "pure arabic" accent) is not Islam. It is bs. The Quran says it is a book to make things simple - and it is.

I read the Quran using my head (per #234/235), satisfied myself that I was quite correct in defining Islam the way I have and that this indeed reflected the message of the Quran. And moved on from there. The Quran is about how to live this life (i.e. tell right from wrong and do the right thing), and everything else is bs. I can move on and look for other truths (and there is a lot of wonderful new truths being unravelled today thanks to science in terms of the Book of Life, Origins of the Universe, and so on) - which is precisely what I should be doing anyway, per the Quran (i.e. God did not create mankind to worship him - rather he created mankind to learn about his Creation - in other words do what scientists and men belonging to the Age of Reason are doing.

This is a much better way to live than to be like either the hamidms of the muslims world or the urstrulys.

tehsin,

khabees ... do you mind educating zeemax on the difference between freedom and liberty ? ..... the man is a good murtid who has gone bad and reverted to islam .... but i think he can be 'saved'