Reinterpretation of Islam in Turkey

zeemax,

..... i am warning you - don't mess with this tehsin character unless you want socrates, plato, the us constitution, the bill of rights, french revolution and the kitchen sink thrown at you ........ the man is an imbecile but he knows the difference between freedom and liberty .....

#240 Posted by tahmed32 o

...while it is considered virtuous to make the propet a de facto and infallible god

Who said so? Muslims certainly don't. I know the sufis say so, which is why I consider them no more than hindus.

#241 Posted by hamidm2,

Haha .. yeah I remember .... but then it appears he smelled your bacon from afar ...

tehsin,

khabees ... do you mind educating zeemax on the difference between freedom and liberty ? ..... the man is a good murtid who has gone bad and reverted to islam .... but i think he can be 'saved'

#237 TehsinA: unlike this ghamdi you mention, my search had a beginning and an end. This endless "search for the truth" by sufis and aalims is a wild goose chase, and the endless references to sunnahs, hadiths, Quranic verses (preferably in guttural "pure arabic" accent) is not Islam. It is bs. The Quran says it is a book to make things simple - and it is.

I read the Quran using my head (per #234/235), satisfied myself that I was quite correct in defining Islam the way I have and that this indeed reflected the message of the Quran. And moved on from there. The Quran is about how to live this life (i.e. tell right from wrong and do the right thing), and everything else is bs. I can move on and look for other truths (and there is a lot of wonderful new truths being unravelled today thanks to science in terms of the Book of Life, Origins of the Universe, and so on) - which is precisely what I should be doing anyway, per the Quran (i.e. God did not create mankind to worship him - rather he created mankind to learn about his Creation - in other words do what scientists and men belonging to the Age of Reason are doing.

This is a much better way to live than to be like either the hamidms of the muslims world or the urstrulys.

#237 TehsinA: unlike this ghamdi you mention, my search had a beginning and an end. This endless "search for the truth" by sufis and aalims is a wild goose chase, and the endless references to sunnahs, hadiths, Quranic verses (preferably in guttural "pure arabic" accent) is not Islam. It is bs. The Quran says it is a book to make things simple - and it is.

I read the Quran using my head (per #234/235), satisfied myself that I was quite correct in defining Islam the way I have and that this indeed reflected the message of the Quran. And moved on from there. The Quran is about how to live this life (i.e. tell right from wrong and do the right thing), and everything else is bs. I can move on and look for other truths (and there is a lot of wonderful new truths being unravelled today thanks to science in terms of the Book of Life, Origins of the Universe, and so on) - which is precisely what I should be doing anyway, per the Quran (i.e. God did not create mankind to worship him - rather he created mankind to learn about his Creation - in other words do what scientists and men belonging to the Age of Reason are doing.

This is a much better way to live than to be like either the hamidms of the muslims world or the urstrulys.

#242 you just did! when you were clearly distressed by my considering the prophet to be a fallible human being. gazillions of muslims have arabic calligraphy spelling out Allah and Mohammed at par - and this is nothing but making a de facto god of the prophet, a co-equal with God.

#247 Posted by tahmed32

I'm sure you're mistaken or misread me. Muhammad was certainly not infallible, and said so himself many times.

Well let me just give you an opening remark. Islam means submission. Submission to the will of God. The will of God as expressed in his Book the Quran. As interpreted and enforced by the Khalifa ul Vaqt. Isn’t submission diametrically opposed to liberty?

Rather then quipping about my ignorance why don’t you provide a scholarly refutation.

zeemax #248 Thanks for the clarification.

tahmed32:

Thanks for a clear answer.

#249 Posted by TehsinA,

When one is asked to fear no one but Allah, could there be anything more liberating?

TehsinA #249: I dont know who this is addressed to, but here is my comment:

It is a triviality to say Islam means submission to the will of Allah. Of course we all submit to the will of Allah - try breaking the Law of Gravity, e.g. Or try growing younger rather than older. Or try to fly a kite in a tornado. I dont need a lifetime of study or endless verses from the Quran or refernces to the sunnah to tell me that. The trouble starts when someone says "Dont use your head, just do what I tell you to because I am an Islamic scholar and you are not."

So, if you wish to define Islam based on trivialities that you have been hearing from mullahs fine and never stopped to consider a moment to think about, that is fine too.

Re: # 249

tehsin,

.... you can do better than this ! .... give him the full speech - the one that i have had to suffer so many times .... you know, the one based on the concept of 'pursuit of happiness'

#239 Posted by zeemax on March 4, 2008

Well let me just give you an opening remark. Islam means submission. Submission to the will of God. The will of God as expressed in his Book the Quran. As interpreted and enforced by the Khalifa ul Vaqt. Isn’t submission diametrically opposed to liberty?

Rather then quipping about my ignorance why don’t you provide a scholarly refutation.

PS: this is a repeat of my 249 post where I forgot to direct it to the appropriate party.

dm #251 you are welcome sir.